Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[KirbySquad101]

Funny how the top 4 consists of a US player, a Japan player, a UK player, and a France player; that's actually kind of awesome in a way lol

Oh yeah, and Gluttony 3-1s Raito to send him to Loser's; Raito was started to make a pretty impressive comeback near the end though.

EDIT: Dabuz 3-0s Scr7 ; holy cow, that last game was really hard to watch.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I think Snake might be as well?

Snake is interesting for Bowser because he's faster than Snake and survives against Snake longer than anyone else. However, Bowser can have some trouble breaking through the projectile spam, similarly to the rest of the cast. Fire Breath may help against grenades and Nakita onstage a bit though...?

 

[$.A.F.]

Snake is interesting for Bowser because he's faster than Snake and survives against Snake longer than anyone else. However, Bowser can have some trouble breaking through the projectile spam, similarly to the rest of the cast. Fire Breath may help against grenades and Nakita onstage a bit though...?

If he grabs snake when he has a grenade he has a 50% combo guaranteed and a kill confirm past 80. If you hold grenade in shield, three tomahawks will end your stock

 

[Anomika]

Top 8 at EVO at 2019 might have an even wider diversity in terms of countries and fighters. I'm pretty confident we'll get the Hero a good while before the tournament happens, not like how it happened at Genesis 6 and SnS5(?). If that's the case, we may even see the Hero appearing already getting results at EVO, but I think it'll be like Joker, lukewarm to mildly positive reception for a little while, then the real fun will begin.

As for Albion 4, seeing getting Top 8 at A tier gives me hope for other low and bottom tiers getting actually meaningful buffs in the future (looking at , which got a lot of buffs but none of them fixed or mitigated the flaws he has, but the game is still young so there's time). Also is still very much viable, though he still needs his shield to be bigger.

Also, being more popular than (19 vs 22) is quite interesting, I'm not sure if this happened at any previous major tournaments. Glad to see Falco getting the support even though the latter is my main. Now that I'm talking about Fox (I'll also kinda include ), I wonder what pro players makes him put at the top tier if he's not getting top 16 as of recently. I don't doubt he's good, I'm just curious. Hopefully the players will adapt to his different gameplan because of altered moves and mechanics. I can see him having a potential to be even more optimized after watching the VoDs. It'll take a while for him to shine more (no pun intended).

 

[Lacrimosa]

Mario has been never put in Top-Tier by any top-player I know.
High tier, yes, but not higher.

 

[Anomika]

Hence the kinda. What I said about Fox isn't 100% true with Mario, but they're in a similar spot where they're placed highly in tier lists but they have a bit inconsistent results in the top brackets. But what these two will probably have in common is being unaffected with the updates (or ever so slightly buffed/nerfed), which can give players good amount of time to stick with the playing style they like without having to worry about the nerf hammer.

 

[PK Gaming]

Because while any of our overall game knowledge may not be up to par, a lot of people have a deep amount of character knowledge coming from months to years of maining said character. Most top players main and fight top tiers therefore making them not really read up on mid-low tier characters or sometimes even high tiers or more uncommon top tiers. That isn’t really their fault. But blatant misinformation isn’t a topic for discussion. If people are going to make judgements, they should at least have actual reasoning. You and I know this. Under or overrating characters is one thing, but blatantly spreading misinformation never achieves anything.

I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of people participating in this thread (myself included) don't have character knowledge that's significantly better (or even on par) with your typical top player. There's also the faulty assumption that they only fight top tiers; you're also ignoring the fact that many of the top players in this game regularly play friendlies online (or in person) with all kinds of players.

Thinking this way, that you have some sort of "edge" over top players is a pure conceit on your part. Don't fall into that trap.

 

[Yonder]

Snake is interesting for Bowser because he's faster than Snake and survives against Snake longer than anyone else. However, Bowser can have some trouble breaking through the projectile spam, similarly to the rest of the cast. Fire Breath may help against grenades and Nakita onstage a bit though...?

Sometimes else nice about Bowser vs snake is that up b goes right through Nikita if you use it right as you make contact with it. The active hitbox keeps Bowser safe enough. Which is funny cause Bowsers up b is usually losing to like,everything when trying to recover...but not Nikita

 

[Anomika]

Some other recoveries also can ignore Nikita, at least most of the time. I think priority is what makes recovery capable of countering it. Outside of disjoints or well spaced moves, spikes and attacks from below/ the side, it's kinda hard to contest the aerial Whirling Fortress, but it's not impossible. I think Nikita can indeed hit Bowser, but not from the above.

 

[Rizen]

Nikita it's self isn't too hard to avoid but Snake can cancel it and Utilt you if you go high. It's dumb.

Glutonny's been burning the midnight oil kupo. Tweek isn't the only top Wario threat. Snake and Palutena are EVERYWHERE and happy about evading the nerf hammer (for now). Joker did okay but not great at Albion 4, mainly appearing as a secondary. My boy YL got 9th (and 1st at Big Win Championship 2 in Australia :/) showing that dedicated mains can put in work with him. Wolf and Peach are feeling their nerfs but still strong characters. And of course Bowser Jr. got a respectable 7th showing you can't sleep on any character. It's been a good day for character diversity.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Albion 4

1st: Glutonny
2nd: Dabuz
3rd: Raito
4th: Scr7
5th: Mr.R
5th: MVD
7th: S1
7th: Young Eevey
9th: quiK
9th: Supahsemmie
9th: Meru
9th: Oryon
13th: Space
13th: LoNg0uw
13th: TriM
13th: ShuC


The fact that everyone in top 16 mained a different character (aside from Mr R co-maining Snake) is a nice spectacle to see.

Before any of you say anything, apparently Glutonny used Falcon for pretty much all the earlier matches until the bracket gets deeper. Glutonny has always liked his secondaries.

 

[Frihetsanka]

TBF that’s Europe on Europe violence

MVD isn't Europe though, Scr7 beat him. Good showing from Europe, better than I expected.

Lancelot (the best player in Finland, Chrom main) apparently did pretty well vs Raito:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Imagine if he had clutched it out, that would've been sick.

 

[The_Bookworm]

MVD isn't Europe though, Scr7 beat him. Good showing from Europe, better than I expected.

Lancelot (the best player in Finland, Chrom main) apparently did pretty well vs Raito:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Imagine if he had clutched it out, that would've been sick.

Mr.R's Chrom was also close to beating Raito, but he mentioned that his lack of Duck Hunt experience really bit him back in the long run.

Good news for Rizen, apparently Mr.R is thinking about practicing his YLink more.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Some good news for Pit mains as well, Lucky placed 25th soloing . Good to see there's some signs of life in the character after he was seemingly pronounced dead.

 

[Tri Knight]

Wow what a great span of characters in Albion's top. You cant sleep on any character in this game it seems.

 

[Routa]

MVD isn't Europe though, Scr7 beat him. Good showing from Europe, better than I expected.

Lancelot (the best player in Finland, Chrom main) apparently did pretty well vs Raito:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Imagine if he had clutched it out, that would've been sick.

He also managed to 3-0 Mr R in a MM from what I have heard which is nice.
He has been showing for a while to be a prominent threat. I would go as far as to say that he might be the strongest player from Nordic countries (ofc not counting the two swedes due to their lack of attendance in european events). It is kinda sad tho that only player in Finland who can keep up with him and offer him challenge (for now) is Solobattle (Wario/Richter player) who isn't that active due to being more focused on Melee (currently Finland's best Melee player) and him disliking Ultimate.
As for Nordic countries in general I would say that Finland might be the strongest region from the north at the moment, but that might change after Bifrost 3 (tournament in Sweden where many finns are thinking about attending). Then again I am very biased and I can't help it.

 

[Yikarur]

PkMn Trainer has always been one of the more popular characters in the game, with their popularity rising even further the past month. It is sort of surprising at first considering that you have to be juggling between 3 different movesets, but the overall simplicity of the three movesets makes it not as a big deal as thought.

the characters themselves are pretty complex. Squirtles combo potential is insane and Ivys incredible combos are very lab-heavy and precise as well.

 

[$.A.F.]

I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of people participating in this thread (myself included) don't have character knowledge that's significantly better (or even on par) with your typical top player. There's also the faulty assumption that they only fight top tiers; you're also ignoring the fact that many of the top players in this game regularly play friendlies online (or in person) with all kinds of players.

Thinking this way, that you have some sort of "edge" over top players is a pure conceit on your part. Don't fall into that trap.

An edge when it comes to your character isn’t much to assume. There aren’t that many matchups that top players know inside and out compared to the number of characters in the game except for of course how they matchup against their character. Like I doubt that Dabuz is an expert on the Kirby fox matchup, or that VoiD would make deep analysis of the Jigglypuff Plant ratio. That’s probably because they don’t play either that much. It’s unlikely most top players know the matchup spread and weird tech of most characters they consider bad. E.G. Esam has lost to multiple Doc players yet still didn’t know enough about the character to really give an accurate description suggesting he didn’t really learn much about the character. Or characters like G&W and ZSS can be ranked unfairly low because they were nerfed from 4 and until they get clobbered, they don’t really see that they may have possibly even improved. Time and again top players mess up on uncommon characters or mediocre characters because they don’t really need to worry about them. That’s why I’m saying that people should work to inform top players about these unorthodox characters. Don’t try and paint me as some egomaniac because I think doc mains know more about Doc than Esam. I never even implied and even refuted players having greater game knowledge except for regarding their main character, especially if they’re obscure. You can’t honestly think that’s incorrect.

 

[Kiligar]

When Nairo went Dark Pit against Marss some time ago, I was heavily disappointed. He played Dark Pit like he was still in sm4sh, way too much dash attack and up smash. Given that he’d had plenty of experience with him in the past, for a player with no experience maining a character in a previous installment doesn’t truly give them the validity to accurately judge them. Basically I’m saying if Nairo didn’t know how to use DP even close to optimally after his sm4sh experience, how can a random pro understand the ins and outs of a character they don’t use nor face often. It’s true that most pros are fully prepared for 15-20 matchups at most and when outside the box they simply rely on their fundamental skill and their character’s polarizing nature as they adapt over the set. So I don’t really take the explanations for where they rank a character outside top 15 seriously at all.

 

[Anomika]

Using some bottom tiers / low tiers / unpopular picks from a certain player all of a sudden can be a good surprise option mostly because of the MU inexperience, but it unfortunately works for maybe like two games at most against top players, IF the former doesn't have that much experience with the fighter either.
I still remember Komota's beating VoiD'sin one game but then lost the set. It's not the potential of the fighter that made Kirby win one game, it was the surprise factor.
I think Marss' against MkLeo also had a bit of a surprise factor, but in the end MkLeo adapted and won the tournament, but again Marss has a solid experience with Captain Falcon so at the same time it did make the final set last a bit longer, and Captain Falcon is a solid fighter overall.

It's definitely a pleasant experience to see an unpopular pick getting even one game or an upset. Such a big game with a lot of fighters players, a lot of upsets will happen, that's for sure.
It makes me want to see Nairo pull out either one day. They're pretty fun to watch even if any of them is pretty straightforward.

 

[Tri Knight]

I've definitely seen scenarios where someone pulls out a low tier and wrecks a top tier. Players eventually get so accustomed to fighting a handful of characters from top tier players that sometimes choosing a rarely used character can prove to be a powerful tactic.

At least right now, smash ultimate is forcing players to adapt to a wide range of character matchups.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

All this diversity in the competive scene is a nice surprise, but If I picked up anyting from the past couple of weeks results is that is still very much a top-tier threat even with his current sheildpoking issues, and is a top 10 character EASY with Gluttonys amazing results showingits just not due to Tweek using him. He basically has Smash 4 like robbery factor with that Waft good gravy.

Speaking of Tweek he seems to be putting a lot of work into lately. I wonder if he is planning to main PT or use as another secondary. If so it can mean a lot more results for them.

Also I find it really funny that notable pro players are coming out of the woodwork on saying is top-tier / top 10 character now,

 

[|RK|]

I still remember Komota's beating VoiD'sin one game but then lost the set. It's not the potential of the fighter that made Kirby win one game, it was the surprise factor.

I wouldn't say this. I think you'd need to know what Komota could have done better in order to make this conclusion.

Besides... the bigger thing is... VoiD SD'd a bunch. Kirby does fine against Pichu, in either case (and had Komota properly reacted to dtilt trip, the set would have been his).

Anyways, I feel your overall point - just wouldn't use this set to illustrate it.

 

[ZephyrZ]

the characters themselves are pretty complex. Squirtles combo potential is insane and Ivys incredible combos are very lab-heavy and precise as well.

Squirtle's bread and butters aren't much more technical then say, Mario's. Sure it's taken me training room practice and a little bit of expirementing, don't get me wrong, but I've made do just by copying other players in that regard.

Ivysaur's combos, on the other hand, rarely go over two hits. The only one that's really difficult to pull off (imo) is U-throw -> Full Hop Uair -> Uair combo but it requires a platform, only works at low percents and requires you to land Ivy's risky grab so its pretty situational.

I think PT is a character with a moderate skill floor but a very high ceiling. At the most basic level as a pocket character you need a good Ivy and passable Squirtle/Zard, but if you want to really master the character, you have to know the ins and out of the entire trio and be confident enough in your ability to play all three of them to switch on a dime when the moment calls for it.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I don't know if that's the right place but I was told that there are server maintenances and new advertisement for The Hero which suggest a soonish release.
Even if not, I hope they'll buff certain characters, like Robin, Zelda (even though she's mostly fine imo) or the Pits.
These characters are pretty much dead and only one player repping them isn't really anything even if they place consistently well.

 

[KirbySquad101]

EDIT 10char

 

[Shaya]

Since day 1 of this game I haven't felt like bowser jr was bottom tier.
I have no idea howwwwwwwwwwwww people hiveminded one or two tweets (at least that I saw) that implied bowser jr got nerfed thus was auto-terrible.

Just like Roy (and Chrom), even with [minor] nerfs in some areas (honestly, I have no idea what they were in the first place or why people felt they were so significant), the engine is so much better for them - could you imagine cannonball EVER doing anything in s4 thanks to air dodges?

A combination of hitboxes on landing for a lot of moves always gives them a mix up and counterplay to parry attempts - if you don't parry their aerials you're likely not getting punishes and they're pretty big.

I think the low tier in this game currently consists of 3-5 characters, and basically they can't be balanced easily without becoming obnoxiously obnoxious (i.e. Little Mac). This character might seem low tier at a glance, but has so many neat little mix ups (and unlike someone else I'd describe like this in the past - Mii Brawler; these mix ups aren't 2 second lag sinks afterwards) that at the very least there is a lot more POTENTIAL to keep improving than what most characters are looking at.

Also remember that data post thinkaman dropped?
I found it hilarious how not one single person in this thread brought up the fact Bowser Jr was in the top 20 stats (better than ZSS iirc?).

 

[PK Gaming]

An edge when it comes to your character isn’t much to assume. There aren’t that many matchups that top players know inside and out compared to the number of characters in the game except for of course how they matchup against their character. Like I doubt that Dabuz is an expert on the Kirby fox matchup, or that VoiD would make deep analysis of the Jigglypuff Plant ratio. That’s probably because they don’t play either that much. It’s unlikely most top players know the matchup spread and weird tech of most characters they consider bad. E.G. Esam has lost to multiple Doc players yet still didn’t know enough about the character to really give an accurate description suggesting he didn’t really learn much about the character. Or characters like G&W and ZSS can be ranked unfairly low because they were nerfed from 4 and until they get clobbered, they don’t really see that they may have possibly even improved. Time and again top players mess up on uncommon characters or mediocre characters because they don’t really need to worry about them. That’s why I’m saying that people should work to inform top players about these unorthodox characters. Don’t try and paint me as some egomaniac because I think doc mains know more about Doc than Esam. I never even implied and even refuted players having greater game knowledge except for regarding their main character, especially if they’re obscure. You can’t honestly think that’s incorrect.

And yet we often see non-competitors overrate their mains due to bias. Yes, it's true that certain top players will undervalue a character due to lack of knowledge on them, but that doesn't necessarily mean a character enthusiast is guaranteed to know better about said characters either. In fact, I know from experience that character enthusiasts will often misunderstand what makes their character good/bad.

I also think it's strange you call out top players for undervaluing characters like G&W and ZSS, when those characters were undervalued by people who regularly participated in this very thread. From my experience, top players were quicker on the draw on "discovering" a character's potential.

You're using an edge-case (eSAM undervaluing Doc despite losing him) as the basis for your entire argument, and it just isn't tenable. Ultimately, there's nothing wrong with informing a player when they're wrong, but your initial suggestion, to inform top players before they make tier lists is both unrealistic and disrespectful. A tier list is an opinion, and people shouldn't be educated before giving out their opinion.

 

[$.A.F.]

And yet we often see non-competitors overrate their mains due to bias. Yes, it's true that certain top players will undervalue a character due to lack of knowledge on them, but that doesn't necessarily mean a character enthusiast is guaranteed to know better about said characters either. In fact, I know from experience that character enthusiasts will often misunderstand what makes their character good/bad.

I also think it's strange you call out top players for undervaluing characters like G&W and ZSS, when those characters were undervalued by people who regularly participated in this very thread. From my experience, top players were quicker on the draw on "discovering" a character's potential.

You're using an edge-case (eSAM undervaluing Doc despite losing him) as the basis for your entire argument, and it just isn't tenable. Ultimately, there's nothing wrong with informing a player when they're wrong, but your initial suggestion, to inform top players before they make tier lists is both unrealistic and disrespectful. A tier list is an opinion, and people shouldn't be educated before giving out their opinion.

So if I’m getting this right: Top players regarding characters they rarely if ever have to face know significantly more than literal mains of the character because reasons and that literal character enthusiasts significantly lack knowledge on their character. This isn’t me trying to even straw man you, you actually just said/implied this. Wow.

Game and Watch’s low placements were actually met with quite a bit of actual Back lash. Not even just by this thread but by many forms of social media. What are you talking about? And from the maioI’ve talked to, he was thought to be a mid tier before Maister. ZSS I cannot speak on nearly as reliably for one side or the other.

This isn’t an edge case. Multiple cases of characters having blatant misinformation about them like ZeRo with Dedede or Esam again with Robin etc. consistently appear on tier lists. If you want more ask if/when you respond. It’s not hard to find more examples to give.

Okay no. You really said it. Top players being educated about characters is insulting. Not to mention you just said and I quote: “people shouldn’t be educated before giving out opinions” top players shouldn’t actually be given access to information prior to making a tier list. These tier lists are used by the community to actually find out where characters stand and you think it’s insulting if we give them any information to make it more accurate. I....think I’m done with Smashboards for the night. Disrespectful to tell players how characters work before making a literal tier list.

 

[Tri Knight]

Just like Roy (and Chrom), even with [minor] nerfs in some areas (honestly, I have no idea what they were in the first place or why people felt they were so significant),

Players who main characters that received a nerf or two really do react as if it's the end of a character's viability. It's kind of comical although sometimes it can be detrimental. I was guilty of that myself back in Smash 4 in a couple instances. Like when Link lost his infinite jab. Sometimes I still curse the guy who made the first video lol.

Although on the subject of the game engine, I really do think a lot of characters are finding so much more success because of the engine.

People dont even realize how much of a buff even just the jumpsquat change was for Link (and I'm sure for many other heavies as well). His zoning and spam potential isnt as good and he has a slightly slower jab and I still consider him better than he was in Smash4. In Smash4, one of his biggest problems, imo, was his inability to escape or get away and jumpsquat was a major culprit (7 effing frames in Smash4...). That jumpsquat change to everyone was great for a bunch of characters I'm sure, but it was actually a huge buff to Link.

A change like that allows slower characters to at least be able to defend themselves. It makes movement more fluid for all characters regardless of their weight/speed.

 

[ZephyrZ]

A tier list is an opinion, and people shouldn't be educated before giving out their opinion.

Except educated opinions are still far more valuable then uneducated ones, or worse yet, misinformed ones.

It's true a lot of loyalists are biased fanboys who overrated their characters, but one who studies their characters and knows their ins and outs may still know something a top player may not.

Top players can place characters on their lists where they want to but I don't think it's wrong to want them to get their facts strait.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Quick question:

Who competes at least semi-regularly here?

 

[Diddy Kong]

...A hell of a lot.

Here are some of the more common characters (5 or more occurences)

Spoiler: The rest

Spoiler

Note that this isn't necessarily reflective of each character's prominence in bracket (Diddy Kong is listed as a secondary every single time, for example)

Good to see this many Diddy players! Did Diddy get some recent results this time around?

 

[PK Bash]

Good to see this many Diddy players! Did Diddy get some recent results this time around?

Not reeeaaally. As I said in that post (though it got absorbed in a spoiler somehow. Whoops), Diddy Kong was always used as a secondary and just because those players had been known to use him, doesn't mean they actually had enough faith to use him over their mains in the largest FGC event Europe has ever seen. So I have no idea what Diddy actually achieved at Albion, unlike say Piranha Plant where it's cut and dry. Despite the apparent diversity, there's a lot of information we may never know: the reality is probably much more conservative than the picture this post of mine paints.

Two solo Nesses in top 32 though babyyyyy woohoo

Quick question:

Who competes at least semi-regularly here?

Yeah. Why do you ask...?

Despite this, I'm still pretty sure ZeRo and MKLeo know more useful information about Ness than I do.

Just sayin'.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Quick question:

Who competes at least semi-regularly here?

I do, I was PR’d last season and try to get to a few events each month schedule allowing. I try to formulate any opinion I have based off the local play that I get with observations from other sources to fill in the blanks and sometimes a splash of online play at caution (because of the inconsistency of WiFi as a platform).

Also want to throw this out there before the bandwagon gets started I think Jr. is a good character and I quite frankly don’t understand why people think he’s bad even pre patch. When I see the character I see a character that has plenty of tools for playing all states of match. Like any character he has weaknesses (It was only one match which I don’t like make definitive statements on but watching him against Snake just seems like hell getting around all of the explosions). But I don’t think his weaknesses are Mac levels crippling by no means.

 

[|RK|]

Quick question:

Who competes at least semi-regularly here?

Dunnobro and I for sure.

 

[Lore]

T: Dabuz 3-0s Scr7 ; holy cow, that last game was really hard to watch.

I main Palutena, yet it's kinda hard to avoid the fact that she has gotten dunked on in a lot of matches lately. I'm not sure why.

 

[Rizen]

Quick question:

Who competes at least semi-regularly here?

I go to weeklies and sometimes larger tournaments that have around 120 people.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I would compete but I live in the middle of nowhere :^).
Also not living in the US, so...I know Europe has weeklies too, but nowhere close to me .

 

[Avokha]

Quick question:

Who competes at least semi-regularly here?

I compete pretty regularly (PR'd in my region to boot), actually about to attend low tier city this weekend as a matter of fact lol.