Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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The_Bookworm

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Something I am a little bit curious about: in a bunch of result-based tier lists ever since the beginning of the game, I have seen :ultbayonetta: around the middle of the list for the longest time, even after tamim and Lima went on a hiatus prior to 3.1.0 dropping. I have seen her outperform characters like Zelda, Dedede, and Samus in the results tier list, despite some of these characters showing more definite high placements in higher levels of play.

I have a question: where is she getting all of her results from? Aside from Geist and CaptainZack (the latter of which only uses her in an occasional basis), no one I know of plays this character, let alone get results that outperforms the characters mentioned above.
I think Mystearica switching mostly to Bayonetta is probably what hurt :ultzelda:'s results trend the most, which is why she's slightly placed lower than :ultluigi: or :ultgnw:, since while Ven had done pretty well at CEO, Elegant and Maister have been doing phenomenal at super-regionals, which is probably the one thing keeping them out of Tier 5.
Mystearica still plays mostly Zelda, but she is sort of trying to embrace back to her old main. The tournament Mystearica took part in was relatively small. I think ven and Mystearica's activity in especially higher levels of play, is what is going to determine what direction Zelda's results is going.

I don't think any character has fallen as far as :ultridley: since his debut. A character who had once ranked #26 on Orion, now at #43.

:ultdk: had suffered similarly, but this week has shown some major improvements. I think he was like #43 or in the 40s himself and then jumped up to #37.

I fully expect that Ridley will drop close to #50+ on Orion, eventually surpassed by :ultzelda::ultrosalina::ultduckhunt::ultdiddy::ultincineroar::ultlucario::ultsheik: in terms of Results.

Both Vreyus and Trela, though while not condescending of the character, make it abundantly clear they are tired of the character. The thing that made Ridley good and able to earn near High Tier spots no longer remains in the current meta. I've told the Ridley Board the same thing but Ridley is in desperate need of buffs now. He is stagnant, constantly dropping and if nothing changes, he will be the Low Tier garbage people wanted to put him in at the beginning.

My only hope is, Nintendo will stop looking at Ridley's Final Smash and start looking at the things that really need to be fixed.
I think 3.1.0 indirectly hurt Ridley more than anyone else, particularly the buffs to :ultryu::ultken:.
Most of the top Ridley players mained :4ryu:, leaving behind Ryu who got greatly nerfed from SSB4 at the base game. Trela was never a very active player, despite being absolutely dominant in his region with solo Ridley. Vreyus brings out pretty good overall results with Ridley in his region, and still is to this day.
However, what did 3.1.0 bring to the table? Huge Ryu/Ken buffs? Oh boy, their boy is back in business! And one by one, they abandon Ridley to reunite with the Shotos. Unfortunate circumstances to the space pirate, and even if Ridley gets buffed to the moon, the playerbase that backed him up is now back with the Shotos, who many is now saying that they have high tier (even top tier for the case of Ken) potential.


I think it brings up the issue that we will eventually run out of top talented players to represent all 70+ characters, even if the character demonstrates notable promise. It sort of brings back to what meleebrawler says about attracting playstyles and character archetypes. It is one of the main reasons why most of the characters under Thinkaman's "Currently dead" category is barely being used at all. They have barely anyone to represent them anymore. Examples include:
:ultridley: Lost a lot of his playerbase, as their Shoto heroes have returned thanks to 3.1.0.
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: Stuck with a very boring, uninteresting moveset and playstyle, with Earth not being around due to develop-of-the-game reasons.
:ultmewtwo: Lost a lot of playerbase in the initial transition, stemming from both his nerfs and his playstyle change, had SDX had brought solid results with him, notably before 3.0.0 buffs came around, but he then went on a hiatus.


On a side note: I am a bit curious on where SDX is right now. He claimed that he returning in competitive play and main Joker, but I haven't yet seen him at all.
On a second side note: I am kind of surprised that Robin is in the "Currently dead" tier, considering that Dath and Jul, especially the latter, has gotten solid in-region results.

Tis the fate of the Links. I expected no less.

Meanwhile T is a Link/Young Link main and is one of the top players in Japan isnt he?
Yes, T is. He has been killing it lately, with the 2nd placement of Sumabato SP 5. However unfortunately, for YLink players anyways, he has been resorting to more solo BotW Link lately, which is what he did to get that placement.
 

Ziodyne 21

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YL could be a good secondary to CF. YL's zoning compliments CF's rushdown style.
T's good but not a top player anymore. He didn't make the top 100 list.
Speaking of cultural prerences and the Links. Its funny how both :ultlink:and :ulttoonlink:seem to be more popular in Japan than YL, who sees almost no representation there.
Correct me if any of this is wrong. But was it Ri-ma who got top8 in Umebura Major with Tink?. Which is really the best major rep I have seen of any of the links so far . Maybe Salem? May of got a high placing with Adult Link when he was still using him?
 
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The_Bookworm

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T's good but not a top player anymore. He didn't make the top 100 list.
That is kind of subjective considering that T wasn't the most active player out there. He partake in a lot of Japan weeklies, but in terms of actual big events, he wasn't the most active player, only participating in Midwest Mayhem Ultimate (a tournament at the first month of the game), Umebura SP 2, Sumabato SP 2, 2GG: Prime Saga (his only big U.S.A. tournament), Umebura Japan Major 2019 (where he kind of underperformed thanks to seeding and Kirihara), and Sumabato SP 5 (a tournament that took place after the top 100 list recordings).

Speaking of cultural prerences and the Links. Its funny how both :ultlink:and :ulttoonlink:seem to be more popular in Japan than YL, who sees almost no representation there.
Correct me if any of this is wrong. But was it Rin-ma who got top8 in Umbehara Major with Tink?
Yes, plus Sigma getting 13th at the same tournament.
 
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Yeah I feel like Young Link would be perfect for Fatality to cover CF's faults.

But T is basically all I have to look at when it comes to top Link mains. I'd love to see him keep it going.

Regardless, I figured falling off might happen to Link but I'd like to see the two of them stay relevant. I still think they both have high tier potential if people are willing enough to dedicate themselves.
 
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Something I am a little bit curious about: in a bunch of result-based tier lists ever since the beginning of the game, I have seen :ultbayonetta: around the middle of the list for the longest time, even after tamim and Lima went on a hiatus prior to 3.1.0 dropping. I have seen her outperform characters like Zelda, Dedede, and Samus in the results tier list, despite some of these characters showing more definite high placements in higher levels of play.

I have a question: where is she getting all of her results from? Aside from Geist and CaptainZack (the latter of which only uses her in an occasional basis), no one I know of plays this character, let alone get results that outperforms the characters mentioned above.

Mystearica still plays mostly Zelda, but she is sort of trying to embrace back to her old main. The tournament Mystearica took part in was relatively small. I think ven and Mystearica's activity in especially higher levels of play, is what is going to determine what direction Zelda's results is going.


I think 3.1.0 indirectly hurt Ridley more than anyone else, particularly the buffs to :ultryu::ultken:.
Most of the top Ridley players mained :4ryu:, leaving behind Ryu who got greatly nerfed from SSB4 at the base game. Trela was never a very active player, despite being absolutely dominant in his region with solo Ridley. Vreyus brings out pretty good overall results with Ridley in his region, and still is to this day.
However, what did 3.1.0 bring to the table? Huge Ryu/Ken buffs? Oh boy, their boy is back in business! And one by one, they abandon Ridley to reunite with the Shotos. Unfortunate circumstances to the space pirate, and even if Ridley gets buffed to the moon, the playerbase that backed him up is now back with the Shotos, who many is now saying that they have high tier (even top tier for the case of Ken) potential.


I think it brings up the issue that we will eventually run out of top talented players to represent all 70+ characters, even if the character demonstrates notable promise. It sort of brings back to what meleebrawler says about attracting playstyles and character archetypes. It is one of the main reasons why most of the characters under Thinkaman's "Currently dead" category is barely being used at all. They have barely anyone to represent them anymore. Examples include:
:ultridley: Lost a lot of his playerbase, as their Shoto heroes have returned thanks to 3.1.0.
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: Stuck with a very boring, uninteresting moveset and playstyle, with Earth not being around due to develop-of-the-game reasons.
:ultmewtwo: Lost a lot of playerbase in the initial transition, stemming from both his nerfs and his playstyle change, had SDX had brought solid results with him, notably before 3.0.0 buffs came around, but he then went on a hiatus.


On a side note: I am a bit curious on where SDX is right now. He claimed that he returning in competitive play and main Joker, but I haven't yet seen him at all.
On a second side note: I am kind of surprised that Robin is in the "Currently dead" tier, considering that Dath and Jul, especially the latter, has gotten solid in-region results.


Yes, T is. He has been killing it lately, with the 2nd placement of Sumabato SP 5. However unfortunately, for YLink players anyways, he has been resorting to more solo BotW Link lately, which is what he did to get that placement.
I remember the old days where people would not infrequently compare Mewtwo and Ridley, and it was actually easier for most to side with Ridley because ''at least he can take some hits''. Seems like every character needs that one-size fits all ''anchor'' to be seriously considered, which can take the form of a dominant playstyle (eg. Mario can play annoying by jumping around and throwing fireballs but he'd much rather be rushing in no matter who he faces), an easy OOS move that works in most situations, a move that leads to an easy kill and/or big damage with little risk in of itself or in it's most basic form, lots of weight.
 

Iridium

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To be honest, yeah, YL has it rough in Japan. If you want a YL main to observe, look at Suinoko. He's the main one out there, but I'd say he can be a bit inconsistent at larger Japanese events, although 25th at this year's Umebura Japan Major is pretty good for what the character normally gets.

Yeah I feel like Young Link would be perfect for Fatality to cover CF's faults.

But T is basically all I have to look at when it comes to top Link mains. I'd love to see him keep it going.

Regardless, I figured falling off might happen to Link but I'd like to see the two of them stay relevant. I still think they both have high tier potential if people are willing enough to dedicate themselves.
I feel like next month might be huge for him. Not sure if he announced it anywhere else, but he said in his stream some time ago that he is going to EVO, so Link could potentially get a huge boost if he does well enough there.

There's basically no other Link player that even comes close to contesting him right now, just like in Smash 4.

Something I am a little bit curious about: in a bunch of result-based tier lists ever since the beginning of the game, I have seen :ultbayonetta: around the middle of the list for the longest time, even after tamim and Lima went on a hiatus prior to 3.1.0 dropping. I have seen her outperform characters like Zelda, Dedede, and Samus in the results tier list, despite some of these characters showing more definite high placements in higher levels of play.

I have a question: where is she getting all of her results from? Aside from Geist and CaptainZack (the latter of which only uses her in an occasional basis), no one I know of plays this character, let alone get results that outperforms the characters mentioned above.

Mystearica still plays mostly Zelda, but she is sort of trying to embrace back to her old main. The tournament Mystearica took part in was relatively small. I think ven and Mystearica's activity in especially higher levels of play, is what is going to determine what direction Zelda's results is going.


I think 3.1.0 indirectly hurt Ridley more than anyone else, particularly the buffs to :ultryu::ultken:.
Most of the top Ridley players mained :4ryu:, leaving behind Ryu who got greatly nerfed from SSB4 at the base game. Trela was never a very active player, despite being absolutely dominant in his region with solo Ridley. Vreyus brings out pretty good overall results with Ridley in his region, and still is to this day.
However, what did 3.1.0 bring to the table? Huge Ryu/Ken buffs? Oh boy, their boy is back in business! And one by one, they abandon Ridley to reunite with the Shotos. Unfortunate circumstances to the space pirate, and even if Ridley gets buffed to the moon, the playerbase that backed him up is now back with the Shotos, who many is now saying that they have high tier (even top tier for the case of Ken) potential.


I think it brings up the issue that we will eventually run out of top talented players to represent all 70+ characters, even if the character demonstrates notable promise. It sort of brings back to what meleebrawler says about attracting playstyles and character archetypes. It is one of the main reasons why most of the characters under Thinkaman's "Currently dead" category is barely being used at all. They have barely anyone to represent them anymore. Examples include:
:ultridley: Lost a lot of his playerbase, as their Shoto heroes have returned thanks to 3.1.0.
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: Stuck with a very boring, uninteresting moveset and playstyle, with Earth not being around due to develop-of-the-game reasons.
:ultmewtwo: Lost a lot of playerbase in the initial transition, stemming from both his nerfs and his playstyle change, had SDX had brought solid results with him, notably before 3.0.0 buffs came around, but he then went on a hiatus.


On a side note: I am a bit curious on where SDX is right now. He claimed that he returning in competitive play and main Joker, but I haven't yet seen him at all.
On a second side note: I am kind of surprised that Robin is in the "Currently dead" tier, considering that Dath and Jul, especially the latter, has gotten solid in-region results.


Yes, T is. He has been killing it lately, with the 2nd placement of Sumabato SP 5. However unfortunately, for YLink players anyways, he has been resorting to more solo BotW Link lately, which is what he did to get that placement.
I've been seeing a few results for SDX at the data thread, so it looks like he's only going to locals as of now. Seems as if he hasn't dropped Mewtwo, but he's used Joker more since he released.
 
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blackghost

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Something I am a little bit curious about: in a bunch of result-based tier lists ever since the beginning of the game, I have seen :ultbayonetta: around the middle of the list for the longest time, even after tamim and Lima went on a hiatus prior to 3.1.0 dropping. I have seen her outperform characters like Zelda, Dedede, and Samus in the results tier list, despite some of these characters showing more definite high placements in higher levels of play.

I have a question: where is she getting all of her results from? Aside from Geist and CaptainZack (the latter of which only uses her in an occasional basis), no one I know of plays this character, let alone get results that outperforms the characters mentioned above.

Mystearica still plays mostly Zelda, but she is sort of trying to embrace back to her old main. The tournament Mystearica took part in was relatively small. I think ven and Mystearica's activity in especially higher levels of play, is what is going to determine what direction Zelda's results is going.

.
Bayonetta players getting results: lima (no longer on hiatus but will not be doing majors or most large events), frawg, zack, mirage, giest, pillowtalk, jumpman, ghost, zack, Fade (a really strong rising star) and a few japanese twitter combo people is most of her playerbase of the top of my head. the only one that could win a large event with bayo right now is probably lima. mostly because he may be the best edge guard player in ultimate right now.

her playerbase consists of a very skilled top end that continues to push out results in locals and regionals but her ceiling in large events is way lower than her placement would suggest. Most of her playerbase will tell you they have so much fun playing her to drop her even if they know she is limited. when your matchup chart looks like this you aren't going to win large events or even do well consistently.
 
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Thinkaman

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Alright, let's have a quick chat, and be done with it.

A top Smash player, Ally, has admitted to accusations of dating another prominent Smash player, who was a minor. Ally has declared he is retiring from Smash immediately.

This subforum is an inappropriate place to discuss virtually any aspect of this scenario. I am going to enumerate some reflections intended to "close the book" and provide guidance for how this incident should be referenced in posting both within the subforum and on the rest of Smashboards.
  • Avoid discussing the legality of the situation. Neither you nor anyone you are arguing with on the Internet is a lawyer.
  • The central issue is that this behavior is incompatible with the ethical expectations of our community. We stand against predatory behavior and expect judgment of a certain calibur from everyone, but even higher from that of the public "faces" of our community. Violating this jepordizes not just the safety and feelings of safety of members of our community, but also the business relationships, sponsorships, and event associations that our scene depend on.
  • I personally do not believe Ally is at significant risk of "dating" another underage Smash player--that fear is not why he must leave the community. (And, he must.) It is because we must be clear about the values of our community, and allow no ambiguity that this behavior will ever be excused.
  • It is possible to recognize Ally as a victim (of his own making) while still regarding him as 100% at fault.
  • It is possible to recognize Ally's confession and retirement as an isolated right decision, while still regarding him as 100% at fault.
  • Avoid criticizing the person who brought these public accusations to light. Manipulative relationships, including all liasons with minors, should be escalated to authorities in all cases--and to the public if authorities do not do their job. It seems possible that this situation was handled less-than-ideally, or that the person reporting had less-than-ideal intentions. Neither changes the previous.
  • Avoid criticizing the victim. Avoid naming the victim for no reason. Yes, that information is out there, it's everywhere. Be different, be better.
  • Avoid open speculation on the impact Ally's absence will have on the meta, rankings, character development. Have some tact.
  • You can still discuss Ally's playstyle, VODs, tournament record, ect. (And in this subforum, this is the only thing on-topic.) You can still listen to R. Kelly tracks and watch Polanski flicks. It does not require much cognative dissonance to separate the art from the artist, as they say.
  • Edit: Now might not be the best time to reminisce on your favorite Ally sets, though. Again: tact.
If any of this is unclear or you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Otherwise, consider this the first and last warning: Off-topic posting regarding this incident will be considered "Inappropriate Content" by the mod team (rather than just spam) and dealt with harshly in accordance with site rules.
 
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DelugeFGC

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Moving on..

I was playing my friend's Joker with my Cloud and discovered something. Any character who has a DAir similar to Cloud (ala Link) in that it's a straight downward hitbox that meteors.. that's a potential huge problem for Joker. Any time I would knock him offstage, I would opt to grab ledge and jump DAir to meet his tether snap. The timing didn't net me kills every time, but it was staggeringly effective.

Joker's recovery could be in trouble if stuff like this is expanded upon further, I got over half my kills over 20+ sets doing this alone, and my friend doesn't exactly play a quickplay Joker. I don't know if any other characters can do this to the same extent, but Cloud's DAir off of a ledge hang is a nightmare for that tether snap.

It was rockcrocking levels of efficient, about the only thing Joker can do to avoid it is hit the go for a wildcard high recovery or pray his timing mix up works. Even if you don't get the meteor hitbox, the late DAir can set him up for another run at the OSHI lottery.
 
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PURGE THEM LIKE THE

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I would expect any lingering hitbox placed at ledge grab range to stop joker's tether. Since you mentioned Link, perhaps a safer edgeguard would be to release the ledge and use nair instead, which should catch him tethering to the stage, and then jump and up b facing the blastzone to launch him back out. If you miss Link's dair, you put yourself in a great spot to be reverse edgeguarded.
 
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DelugeFGC

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I would expect any lingering hitbox placed at ledge grab range to stop joker's tether. Since you mentioned Link, perhaps a safer edgeguard would be to release the ledge and use nair instead, which should catch him tethering to the stage, and then jump and up b facing the blastzone to launch him back out. If you miss Link's dair, you put yourself in a great spot to be reverse edgeguarded.
You're doing it from a ledge jump as he tethers, there's no significant risk of getting edge guarded if you miss because he won't really have the time. If you miss, it's pretty much always gonna be because he waited and your timing was off, meaning by the time you're in a position to be edge-guarded, he's just then snapping to the ledge himself and you're either back on ledge or drifting onto stage. Cloud's DAir lingers in the same way Link's does and I never got punished for it during the instances of me missing it as the window to do so (if one even exists) is extremely tight. DAir also has a meteor sweetspot that's a ticket straight to the BZ if it lands, NAir doesn't and as such NAir is no where near as valuable.
 
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Something I am a little bit curious about: in a bunch of result-based tier lists ever since the beginning of the game, I have seen :ultbayonetta: around the middle of the list for the longest time, even after tamim and Lima went on a hiatus prior to 3.1.0 dropping. I have seen her outperform characters like Zelda, Dedede, and Samus in the results tier list, despite some of these characters showing more definite high placements in higher levels of play.

I have a question: where is she getting all of her results from? Aside from Geist and CaptainZack (the latter of which only uses her in an occasional basis), no one I know of plays this character, let alone get results that outperforms the characters mentioned above.

Mystearica still plays mostly Zelda, but she is sort of trying to embrace back to her old main. The tournament Mystearica took part in was relatively small. I think ven and Mystearica's activity in especially higher levels of play, is what is going to determine what direction Zelda's results is going.


I think 3.1.0 indirectly hurt Ridley more than anyone else, particularly the buffs to :ultryu::ultken:.
Most of the top Ridley players mained :4ryu:, leaving behind Ryu who got greatly nerfed from SSB4 at the base game. Trela was never a very active player, despite being absolutely dominant in his region with solo Ridley. Vreyus brings out pretty good overall results with Ridley in his region, and still is to this day.
However, what did 3.1.0 bring to the table? Huge Ryu/Ken buffs? Oh boy, their boy is back in business! And one by one, they abandon Ridley to reunite with the Shotos. Unfortunate circumstances to the space pirate, and even if Ridley gets buffed to the moon, the playerbase that backed him up is now back with the Shotos, who many is now saying that they have high tier (even top tier for the case of Ken) potential.


I think it brings up the issue that we will eventually run out of top talented players to represent all 70+ characters, even if the character demonstrates notable promise. It sort of brings back to what meleebrawler says about attracting playstyles and character archetypes. It is one of the main reasons why most of the characters under Thinkaman's "Currently dead" category is barely being used at all. They have barely anyone to represent them anymore. Examples include:
:ultridley: Lost a lot of his playerbase, as their Shoto heroes have returned thanks to 3.1.0.
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: Stuck with a very boring, uninteresting moveset and playstyle, with Earth not being around due to develop-of-the-game reasons.
:ultmewtwo: Lost a lot of playerbase in the initial transition, stemming from both his nerfs and his playstyle change, had SDX had brought solid results with him, notably before 3.0.0 buffs came around, but he then went on a hiatus.


On a side note: I am a bit curious on where SDX is right now. He claimed that he returning in competitive play and main Joker, but I haven't yet seen him at all.
On a second side note: I am kind of surprised that Robin is in the "Currently dead" tier, considering that Dath and Jul, especially the latter, has gotten solid in-region results.


Yes, T is. He has been killing it lately, with the 2nd placement of Sumabato SP 5. However unfortunately, for YLink players anyways, he has been resorting to more solo BotW Link lately, which is what he did to get that placement.
Well, probably also partly due to Mystearica even though the influence should still be small. So you've also answered you question to some degree.

Anyway, Myst is boostring up Bayo to have a strong secondary and will dual-main her with Zelda which is a really good idea. Don't know how well these two chars complement each other but it's always good to have.
 

Krysco

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Link among other characters can do the 'T Spike' to cover Joker's recovery along with others to varying degrees of success.
Gives you a chance to spike and reduces the risk of losing stage control since you drift back on stage. Video doesn't cover Joker specifically (he doesn't even appear in the video) but the uploader does mention that tethers are among the easiest to land the T Spike on due to their lack of a hitbox (and this flaw also applies to the Arsene recovery).
 

DelugeFGC

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I feel Joker of all characters is particularly vulnerable to this because his tether doesn't have a hitbox when it snaps to ledge and it always whips him down and forces him to recover vertically to the ledge in a way that perfectly sets him up to eat the tip of a sword or the bottom of a stomp to the head. It's stupidly easy to pull off because of the specific way his recovery works, other characters with tethers don't typically go low like Joker likes to, they have to get close to the ledge and then snap to it. Joker can do the same, but it's not ideal as this by itself is pretty easy to punish. Him going low and mixing up his ledge snap timing is all he has if he can't outright land with a high recovery which as the video above shows can be outright stripped away as an option.

Once this gets optimized and expanded upon with the characters it's relevant to, Joker will start losing a lot of stocks simply by virtue of being knocked offstage. As a Falcon player, I empathize.
 
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You're doing it from a ledge jump as he tethers, there's no significant risk of getting edge guarded if you miss because he won't really have the time. If you miss, it's pretty much always gonna be because he waited and your timing was off, meaning by the time you're in a position to be edge-guarded, he's just then snapping to the ledge himself. Cloud's DAir lingers in the same way Link's does and I never got punished for it during the instances of me missing it as the window to do so (if one even exists) is extremely tight. DAir also has a meteor sweetspot that's a ticket straight to the BZ if it lands, NAir doesn't and as such NAir is no where near as valuable.
I use Links D-air to cover ledge snaps all the time because it works. His N-air recovers quicker and is slightly safer but I mostly use N-air deeper offstage for that exact reason.

His bombs are godlike off stage too though
 

DelugeFGC

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It's just mainly the combined sum of a lingering attack that also has a meteor on the clean hit sweetpot with the vertical / downward hitbox those sorts of moves have, factor it in alongside Joker's recovery and it doesn't leave a favorable outcome if he's knocked offstage as Joker is a character that pretty much always ends up going low and snapping to the ledge. This sort of edge guarding technique shreds that to pieces, I compared it to rockcrocking because it's on the same level, easy, cheesy and efficient to pull off.. all while being fairly consistent. It virtually assures Joker's demise in a lot of situations post-disadvantage, and once people start getting consistent with this Joker is gonna start feeling more like the glass cannon I imagine he was supposed to be all along.
 
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Just out of interest: Can you mess Joker's Tether recovery up0 if you put a reflector at the ledge? To my knowledge, the grabbling hook gets reflected when he tries to pull someone down, so shouldn't it also work off-stage? Only asking since I've never used Zelda's reflect in this case nor did I see it from a Fox etc.
 
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Space thing

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Just out of interest: Can you mess Joker's Tether recovery up0 if you put a reflector at the ledge? To my knowledge, the grabbling hook gets reflected when he tries to pull someone down, so shouldn't it also work off-stage? Only asking since I've never used Zelda's reflect in this case nor did I see it from a Fox etc.
No, in my experience it just auto locks to the ledge and doesn't even bother making a hitbox.
 

Nekoo

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Just out of interest: Can you mess Joker's Tether recovery up0 if you put a reflector at the ledge? To my knowledge, the grabbling hook gets reflected when he tries to pull someone down, so shouldn't it also work off-stage? Only asking since I've never used Zelda's reflect in this case nor did I see it from a Fox etc.
Nope, doesn't work, one of my friends is a top Zelda in France and after multiple tries, Reflectors doesn't work against Joker's Up-B, it autoLock the ledge, the best you can do is 2frame him like always or catch-him down.
 

The_Bookworm

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There was something interesting I noticed while I was watching random videos on YouTube, which regards Joker's Grappling Hook vs Reflectors. When Joker used his Grappling Hook against a Palutena using her counter, it triggered Reflect Barrier instead of Counter.

I tested this, and this interaction is 100% consistent. I further checked with its interaction with Arsene Joker's counter, and it always triggered Makarakarn (reflector). I found this strange that it does that.

Is this an error, or does his Grappling Hook have some aspect of projectile properties?
 

Krysco

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I wouldn't be surprised if it's a projectile that activates a grabbox upon coming in contact with a hurtbox, just like Isabelle's Fishing Rod. Does Joker's Grappling Hook grab through shield? If not then that'd pretty much confirm it.
 

Rizen

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Moving on..

I was playing my friend's Joker with my Cloud and discovered something. Any character who has a DAir similar to Cloud (ala Link) in that it's a straight downward hitbox that meteors.. that's a potential huge problem for Joker. Any time I would knock him offstage, I would opt to grab ledge and jump DAir to meet his tether snap. The timing didn't net me kills every time, but it was staggeringly effective.

Joker's recovery could be in trouble if stuff like this is expanded upon further, I got over half my kills over 20+ sets doing this alone, and my friend doesn't exactly play a quickplay Joker. I don't know if any other characters can do this to the same extent, but Cloud's DAir off of a ledge hang is a nightmare for that tether snap.

It was rockcrocking levels of efficient, about the only thing Joker can do to avoid it is hit the go for a wildcard high recovery or pray his timing mix up works. Even if you don't get the meteor hitbox, the late DAir can set him up for another run at the OSHI lottery.
This is exactly what I was trying to tell people a few days ago. I've done this a lot with YL's drop down Nair. The only issue with Link's Dair is if you miss the animation takes so long he can't recover so it's risky.
 

The_Bookworm

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Tbh. his gun should be reflectable and not his friggin grabbling hook.
I've got little hope they'll "fix" this, though.
As far as I can tell, his gun has similar hitbox properties as Bayo's Bullet Arts. Regardless, being able to reflect his gun won't really do too much.

I do find the fact that bullets can't be reflected but a grappling hook "can", sort of hilarious logic. Then again, we live in a franchise where a slingshot deals more damage and knockback than a barbed bow and arrow flying at high speeds.
 
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DelugeFGC

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This is exactly what I was trying to tell people a few days ago. I've done this a lot with YL's drop down Nair. The only issue with Link's Dair is if you miss the animation takes so long he can't recover so it's risky.
If you do it right, there's really no risk as you drift back onto stage or regrab ledge by the time he is, ideally you'd wanna do what the video showed and ledge jump, DAir and drift back onstage. This puts out a hitbox to intercept his tether snap while assuring the risk to yourself is non-existent.

It's anti-Joker as hell and easy to do. I don't think it nulls Joker's position in the top 5, but it's a definite argument against him being best in the game or this OP brickhouse status some seem to think he has.

Joker's a really cool character who has a lot of good, he and Cloud are the only two characters I used that survived the Rebirth of the Falcon as my secondaries. It seems my taste in characters includes the stipulation of must have exploitable recovery at this point.
 
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$.A.F.

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I honestly think that we should work on educating top players before making tier lists. A lot of times as we’ve pointed out, they spread misinformation on characters that they don’t know much about. For example, ZeRo’s opinions on game and Watch and Yoshi in his first and second respective tier lists. Or Esam covering doctor Mario in the 3.1.0 tier list.
 
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I honestly think that we should work on educating top players before making tier lists. A lot of times as we’ve pointed out, they spread misinformation on characters that they don’t know much about. For example, ZeRo’s opinions on game and Watch and Yoshi in his first and second respective tier lists. Or Esam covering doctor Mario in the 3.1.0 tier list.
I mean does it matter exactly? You cite Mr. G&W as a character Zero was wrong about but did Zero's kneejerk opinion on G&W really effect the character's placings or his mains willingness to push the character at all? Sure a top player saying a character is bad might effect new players deciding on which character they should prioritize but we're not exactly in early Melee where the development of individual character's meta or the meta for that game as a whole was on a timeframe of years, there's a lot more people in the community nowadays figuring this stuff out and cataloging knowledge on individual characters for other players to find. Besides I feel like regardless of what the general opinion on certain characters are there will always be those prospective players willing to look at under looked characters to see if they're worth investing in along with character loyalists willing to push a non-top or high tier like Elegant and Fatality today or Samsora and Myran back in Smash 4.

Besides, its not like this thread is exactly any sort of authority on the metagame. Look at how many people here dismissed Joker as mid tier in contrast to MKLeo who immediately saw Joker's potential.
 
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I mean does it matter exactly? You cite Mr. G&W as a character Zero was wrong about but did Zero's kneejerk opinion on G&W really effect the character's placings or his mains willingness to push the character at all? Sure a top player saying a character is bad might effect new players deciding on which character they should prioritize but we're not exactly in early Melee where the development of individual character's meta or the meta for that game as a whole was on a timeframe of years, there's a lot more people in the community nowadays figuring this stuff out and cataloging knowledge on individual characters for other players to find. Besides I feel like regardless of what the general opinion on certain characters are there will always be those prospective players willing to look at under looked characters to see if they're worth investing in along with character loyalists willing to push a non-top or high tier like Elegant and Fatality today or Samsora and Myran back in Smash 4.

Besides, its not like this thread is exactly any sort of authority on the metagame. Look at how many people here dismissed Joker as mid tier in contrast to MKLeo who immediately saw Joker's potential.
Kinda depends on what you expect from Smash.
Tier lists are a tool that tells people how viable certain characters are. While there are outliers, the majority of tier-lists do look roughly the same:
Pikachu at top
Ness in high
Luigi in mid
Ridley in low
Kirby in bottom

Now, if you are interested in how viable a character is then you want to have as few misinformation as possible. However, if some of the most prominent figures in the scene are spouting nonsense, then this will more or less worsen how viable certain characters are. Does it help you personally? No, but it's a hobby and I also want to have things as reasonable as possible, which is why I "attacked" ZeRo for saying Zelda has a bad OoS game.
Now, if that's true or not is something neither him or I can say with utter confidence yet (probably), but it will lead to discussions and that's always a good thing and shows that the scene is alive.

So yeah, I think it actually does matter. Maybe on a personal level to feel better about your character but it also shows that we are discussing things (maybe not here, but on Youtube or Twitter).
 

Rizen

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^Is :ultridley: really low tier? His results have dropped off a lot but he has some really good traits. Swordsman speed frame data, his tail is disjointed (:ultmewtwo: cries) as are his wings and a terrifying advantage state. Ridley's Nair is like Link's bomb explosion in size and, with his extra jump, makes Ridley one of the best intercepters in the game.

Tiers are subjective. I have low tier reserved for bad characters like Lil Mac, Kirby and Isabelle. Ridley doesn't seem as bad as them, even though his disadvantage stage is one of the worst in the game, even for a large character. Ridley, by design, is a kill or be killed fighter. He has all the tools to kill if he gets momentum.
 
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Not sure where I would place Ridley on a tier list, but imo one of his main issues is that his advantage isn't bonkers enough to warrant such a terrible disadvantage state. He has a pretty good neutral, really good damage ouput and great offstage + ledgetrap game sure. However, he has to work a bit to get his kills (no "real" kill confirm) while half the cast just deletes him once they hit him. His weight is also an issue tbh, he dies waaay to early to any kill confirm. For instance I've played a lot of gren vs Ridley, and gren vs dk, they both get combo'd hard, but dk is way harder because a) he doesn't die as early and b) he kills in 3 grabs. Meanwhile Ridley can mostly fish for an edgegard, and he dies at 110 to a frame 5 dtilt xd.

He is really similar to m2 imo. Glass canons but who aren't canon enough to be really worth playing. Difference is m2 has shadow ball and a better recovery, while ridley controls space better and can actually land.
 

PK Bash

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Albion 4 (895 entrants) (PGR A-tier) has begun.

Your first port of call, aside from the SmashGG page, BYO_Controller and Datteamlive Twitch streams, should be Barnard's Loop/Das Koopa's Reddit write-up: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/c9l3ay/albion_4_europes_biggest_major_viewers_guide_pgr/

You may also find this interesting - this is a "cheat sheet" of most of the players at Albion 4 and their characters: most interesting to me, though, is the character tallies. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...uNbflYmCXwRgg81_YR6nvdOgRo/edit#gid=636319998

The 10 most popular characters are:
:ultinkling: = 49
:ultpokemontrainer: = 42
:ultwolf: = 40
:ultpalutena: = 36
:ultsnake: = 35
:ultpichu: = 32
:ultlucina: = 31 (:ultmarth: = 6)
:ultjoker: = 28
:ultgreninja: = 26
:ultyoshi::ultfalco: (!!!) = 22

As for lesser played characters, first thing that leapt out at me because I do actually play this character (though I sadly could not make Albion), is that literally nobody plays :ultvillager:. Even Isabelle clocks in at 9 players compared to Villager's 2!

Villager is actually the least played character at this tournament, tied with :ultryu: for 2 players (:ultken:=9).:ultdoc: /:ultmewtwo:/:ultcorrin:(3), :ultkirby:(4), and :ulticeclimbers::ultjigglypuff::ultbrawler::ultpacman::ultpiranha: (5) are also notably underplayed.

Other trends:

:ultfox: remains popular (19) and I'm very keen to see how far the Fox players get into the bracket. To my knowledge, he doesn't have any super high calibre players repping him, which will no doubt be reflected in his placements - it's where he will concentrate and his average placement that I'm interested in. Fox has been a tough one to place in this game so far.
I personally think he's a sleeper amazing character that unfortunately missed out on a lot of critical early adopters due to Pichu, who directly and objectively outclasses him in their niche.
:ultwario: (16) I've had my doubts about Wario hanging with the very best, but there's no denying he is a very powerful character. Even beyond Glutonny, he has a number of strong players behind him and I'm expecting him to end up deep in bracket.

:ultdk: (21) is the most popular heavy. :ultbowser:(18) is second and then there is a big drop-off.
:ultyounglink: (17) is well represented and has SupahSemmie - probably the world's best solo Young Link. Keep an eye out for him. He'll go far.

And finally since we're talking about :ultridley: (11), keep an eye out for Adom in particular. I enjoy Ridley but I think he's kind of poop to be honest. Still, I'm not going to sit here and pretend I know enough to talk about this character so I'm waiting for the high-level gameplay this weekend to do the talking.


Just some food for thought for you all. This is going to be an interesting tournament.
https://smash.gg/tournament/albion-4/events
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/c9l3ay/albion_4_europes_biggest_major_viewers_guide_pgr/
 
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Wow, poor Marth. Lucina has literally taken over. One of the biggest surprises to me is actually how much PT is used. I would have never expected him to be that popular, especially compared to the other frequent characters. I'm looking forward to this one. (Lots of Links and Young Links too!)
 
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Not sure where I would place Ridley on a tier list, but imo one of his main issues is that his advantage isn't bonkers enough to warrant such a terrible disadvantage state. He has a pretty good neutral, really good damage ouput and great offstage + ledgetrap game sure. However, he has to work a bit to get his kills (no "real" kill confirm) while half the cast just deletes him once they hit him. His weight is also an issue tbh, he dies waaay to early to any kill confirm. For instance I've played a lot of gren vs Ridley, and gren vs dk, they both get combo'd hard, but dk is way harder because a) he doesn't die as early and b) he kills in 3 grabs. Meanwhile Ridley can mostly fish for an edgegard, and he dies at 110 to a frame 5 dtilt xd.

He is really similar to m2 imo. Glass canons but who aren't canon enough to be really worth playing. Difference is m2 has shadow ball and a better recovery, while ridley controls space better and can actually land.
The day you give Ridley reliable kill combos is the day all other superheavies become obsolete. Or if I had to be very conservative, just DK.

It's honestly refreshing to see glass cannons manifest their firepower in the form of versatile options rather than just damage output and combo potential. But of course people don't generally want to have to consider all these options in one character in a game with more than 70 where you can just use two specialists to cover your bases instead. Having to be Seth or Akuma-level power for that kind of character to be considered is an uncomfortable notion.
 
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