Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

Are we really talking about nerfs to Joker? The thing is in the top 129 or whatever of CEO you've got:
1. MkLeo
9. Wishes
33. Wrath
33. king_chris
129 Ross ?
129 Smiless

1 solo Joker and 5 partial Jokers. There are 11 Snakes and 13 Palutenas. I'm just saying don't have a knee jerk reaction to Leo. It's not like Joker is dominating the meta.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Regarding ZSS vs short characters Marss seemed to be able to hit Pikachu easily enough in his set vs ESAM at CEO. It really seems having an actual rising airiel and better dash-dancing helps immensly in that regard.
Plus so many small characters like Pikachu are very light so If ZSS can hit them its gonna hurt. I mean Boost Kick and Flip Jump kick were taking stocks like around 80-90% which was kinda wild. I wonder if part of that had to do ESAM was just not doing the right DI though

 

[KirbySquad101]

I’m gonna master Shulk.

— Salem (@SalemBane_) June 29, 2019

From the sounds of it, Salem might just be going full from now on. I don't know if this means he'll most likely drop Snake like he did Link (I think he might if we're using past experiences as references here, but his posts about who he mains can be both vague and false from what I've seen), but either way, to have a big name as Salem on board is a pretty big win for Shulk overall.

Then again, this could also mean he uses the character for like 3 months before switching to someone else yet again, so we'll see.

Regarding ZSS vs short characters Marss seemed to be able to hit Pikachu easily enough in his set vs ESAM at CEO. It really seems having an actual rising airiel and better dash-dancing helps immensly in that regard.
Plus so many small charactere like Pikachu are very light..I mea Boost Kick and Flip Kick were taking stocks like arouhd 80% which is kinda crazy. I wonder if ESAM was just not DI'ing right in those matches

Boost Kick didn't get a knockback nerf (aside from the aerial version) at all, so it's just as powerful as it was in SSB4. Which is pretty nutty considering the move is frame 4 on start-up.

The only other OoS Up-Bs I can think of that's comparable in speed and power to that is Marthcina's Dolphin Slash and Doc's Super Jump Punch.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Regarding ZSS vs short characters Marss seemed to be able to hit Pikachu easily enough in his set vs ESAM at CEO. It really seems having an actual rising airiel and better dash-dancing helps immensly in that regard.
Plus so many small characters like Pikachu are very light..I mean Boost Kick and Flip Jump kick were taking stocks like around 80-90% which was kinda wild. I wonder if part of that had to do ESAM was just not doing the right DI though

For both ZSS and Falcon, I think the changes to the engine and alterations to both of them has allowed these two to handle shorter characters better than in SSB4. It is still finicky for both of them, but I think it is more manageable.

 

[NairWizard]

I main and have played a *lot* of ZSS in this game, so I'm going to chime in with some thoughts.

0) I think she's top tier because she doesn't really get crushed in any matchup. Besides maybe Joker, but well, Joker is hard for just about everyone right now. I also think that ZSS has some counterplay to develop in the Joker MU; specifically, she (Marss?) needs to play less of a CQC game and keep away more often. Too often I see MKLeo and Marss shielding right next to each other in this matchup, which is a good situation for Joker. Joker is used to out-mobilitying and outmixing-up characters in midrange; ZSS has better mobility, so she should make use of it. MKLeo seems to realize this and keeps coming up to snuggle.

1) ZSS having top mobility stats comes with benefits for sure, but we should stop looking at these stats raw. "Best initial dash speed in the game" isn't actually purely a good thing; covering more distance with your initial dash restricts your ability to choose more refined movement options to make slight adjustments in positioning. If you always dashed at half the FD stage length when you dashed, then your dash would have very limited application in neutral; nuanced movement is, in general, better than burst movement, and the gap in their power tends to become more pronounced as the metagame develops.

That being said, ZSS' aerial acceleration and hitbox combination (in particular, her f-air, which might be among the top 5 moves in the game) do help her a lot. It's just not as simple as saying "she jumps really high so that's a good thing," because jumping high isn't by itself a good thing. You have to look at movement stats in conjunction with her hitboxes. But in ZSS' case, the mobility params work. Consider Greninja, who has similar mobility stats but makes much poorer use of them (even though he's also pretty good). ZSS huge air speed and tall jumps give her a strong advantage state if you know how to push it properly, because her f-air is ridiculous; if Greninja had a similar f-air he'd probably be the best character in the game.

2) Her actual weakness is her low damage output. She's a stellar keepaway character, but unless you take some risks with down-b you aren't going to be putting out as much damage as most of the top and high tiers. She also can be edgeguarded if you are patient and know her flip kick positions (which requires matchup experience).

She also has a couple of hitbox weaknesses on the ground, but very few blind spots.

3) Her grab is not actually a bad thing at all. It allows her to deal with certain otherwise obnoxious matchups such as Snake. A regular grab wouldn't be nearly as good for a character who struggles to come up with strong grounded midrange options (side-b, while a good landing trap, is not a strong midrange option due to its huge startup and endlag if whiffed). I would rather have ZSS' tether grab than a regular grab. Especially since it means that she gets access to her z-air, which is one of the best keepaway-landing-options-that-sometimes-doubles-as-death options in the game.

4) Her jab1 is one of the best moves in the game; it's so strong to be able to f1 jab and then transition into or from whatever mixup you want. Spotdodge -> jab, or jab -> dash back, or jab -> jump, is great. It singlehandedly (heh) wins matchups.

5) One of her biggest strengths is her OOS game, but I'm not talking about up-b. I'm talking about just full hopping.

"But wait, Solid, can't everyone full-hop?" you ask. Yes, that's true, but a character like DK full hopping and a character like ZSS full hopping is worlds apart. ZSS has great hitbox coverage in front of, below, and behind her, and the aerial acceleration to put herself wherever she wants, not to mention a down-b that can just get her out if the situation is dour, and a d-air that can drop her down quickly if it's safe to land. ZSS full hops and gains options. DK full hops and puts himself in disadvantage.

6) Down-b is not a better option than airdodging to land, in many cases. While Flip Kick is pretty good for keep away, you're not actually being patient enough if she's stuffing your followups with it consistently. On the other hand, it's a scary-strong offensive tool that you must always respect (this respect entices you into picking weaker options).

7)

Of course, she has some things that ultimately hold her back, like her grab and matchup vs "sword" characters (a nebulous, thought-terminating term I dislike, but her record vs them isn't great).

This I disagree with on two counts.

a) Sword characters are actually some of ZSS' best matchups; I've advised people to pick up ZSS as a counter to Lucina many times before. She's got some of the best tools in the game for dealing with sword zoning. Most notably, though, is her f-air--three different variations of it, all of which cut through swordie's arcing swings like knives through melted butter. Falling f-air, rising f-air, and falling f-air without fastfall. This alone gives her good matchups vs. Ike, Marth, Robin, Corrin, and Shulk--she can outspeed them all and anti-zone them with f-airs, and harass them offstage safely from that position. Chrom and Roy are fast, and can be obnoxious in neutral for her, since she can't play the typical vertical callout game with f-air; she has to space very precisely against them, such that she's coming up from below them often, which means that she needs to play a close-quarters game. She's very skilled at doing this, but it's not her usual route to victory against disjoints.

Chrom and Roy actually suffer from the "too much mobility" problem; all of their movement takes them so far that they can't cover more nuanced, smaller distances as easily. You can add poor aerial acceleration to this to make the story look even bleaker for them--sometimes just rolling behind them is enough to put you in advantage when they are in the air.

Similar innovations also turns the Fox matchup from a -1 to a +1, imo. Once Marss learns the Roy matchup I doubt that we'll see him lose to Tweek.

Finally, I don't consider Joker to be a straight sword character, even though he has a dagger.

b) Not strictly about ZSS, but as it pertains to her matchups. I disagree with the claim that "sword characters" is a nebulous description. On the contrary, I think that describing a character as a "sword" character is the strongest descriptor in the game. It's more telling than "grappler," "brawler," "rushdown," or "zoner" by far, though "heavy" gives it a run for its money. There are so many different types of zoners and different types of rushdown characters. Take, for example, Fox and Pikachu. Playing Pikachu will give you absolutely no insight at all into how to play Fox, even though both are typically described as rushdown characters. The rushdown strategies used by Pikachu (attacking from unexpected angles from the air, aided by tjolts; shield mixups with multihits; QA zonebreaking) are radically different from the rushdown strategy used by Fox (dash-back call-your-shield-drop aggression; ground-speed-based zone breaking).

But if I play Chrom, it's not hard to play Lucina, or Ike, or Roy. They have the same playstyle in neutral.

When a character is described to me as a "sword" character, the following assets come to mind immediately:
-disjoint
-range
-arcing hitboxes
-susceptibility to whiff punishing
-reactionary
-likely has dangling legs (Meta Knight is an exception; I don't consider him a true sword character, though I know that Shaya at least disagrees).

This always gives me a sound idea of how to play the character and how to play against the character. ZSS does well at punishing swordie whiffs, and so she generally performs well in those MUs.

This is all coming from someone who more or less plays every sword character, often in tournament. Swordie players will be among the first to tell you that swords share more similarities as a group than almost every other group, if not all of them.

9)

She has favorable, potentially winning matchups against the likes of Palutena, Snake and Olimar.

In my opinion, independently of the results (and looking at the videos/matchups alone), these two (Snake/Palutena) are two of her hardest matchups, even according to Marss. He's very skilled in those matchups, but don't take his success in them as indicative of how the matchups actually go without looking at what happens in the matches (this post is already long so I'll omit the video analysis). Snake is likely her single hardest non-Joker matchup, though I would still only put it at -1.

10) I don't think that she loses to Pikachu at all. Playing the MU requires a very specific set of options, but Pichu and Pikachu are roughly even matchups. You actually have the OOS to deal with them, unlike almost the entire rest of the cast.

11) She's great and a lot of fun, so go pick her up, k? k.

 

[PK Gaming]

1) ZSS having top mobility stats comes with benefits for sure, but we should stop looking at these stats raw. "Best initial dash speed in the game" isn't actually purely a good thing; covering more distance with your initial dash restricts your ability to choose more refined movement options to make slight adjustments in positioning. If you always dashed at half the FD stage length when you dashed, then your dash would have very limited application in neutral; nuanced movement is, in general, better than burst movement, and the gap in their power tends to become more pronounced as the metagame develops.

But "dashing half of FD's length" doesn't apply to ZSS's initial dash, which lets her control space really well. Just being able to get in and out of your opponent's space and act out of it very quickly is very useful, and among the reason why her mobility is very good.

That being said, ZSS' aerial acceleration and hitbox combination (in particular, her f-air, which might be among the top 5 moves in the game) do help her a lot. It's just not as simple as saying "she jumps really high so that's a good thing," because jumping high isn't by itself a good thing. You have to look at movement stats in conjunction with her hitboxes. But in ZSS' case, the mobility params work. Consider Greninja, who has similar mobility stats but makes much poorer use of them (even though he's also pretty good). ZSS huge air speed and tall jumps give her a strong advantage state if you know how to push it properly, because her f-air is ridiculous; if Greninja had a similar f-air he'd probably be the best character in the game.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying her jumps are "absurdly good" because all of the things that make jumps incredibly "good" is implied. Like nobody's going to say "jumping high" are inherently good when character like Falco exists.

3) Her grab is not actually a bad thing at all. It allows her to deal with certain otherwise obnoxious matchups such as Snake. A regular grab wouldn't be nearly as good for a character who struggles to come up with strong grounded midrange options (side-b, while a good landing trap, is not a strong midrange option due to its huge startup and endlag if whiffed). I would rather have ZSS' tether grab than a regular grab. Especially since it means that she gets access to her z-air, which is one of the best keepaway-landing-options-that-sometimes-doubles-as-death options in the game.

It's unquestionably a weak point for her though. Extremely punishable, middling rewards and it prevents her from pressuring at close range with grab. A character like ZSS with say, Joker specs on her grab would be an absolute nightmare. But yeah it does have its own applications and her zair is really good.

b) Not strictly about ZSS, but as it pertains to her matchups. I disagree with the claim that "sword characters" is a nebulous description. On the contrary, I think that describing a character as a "sword" character is the strongest descriptor in the game. It's more telling than "grappler," "brawler," "rushdown," or "zoner" by far, though "heavy" gives it a run for its money. There are so many different types of zoners and different types of rushdown characters. Take, for example, Fox and Pikachu. Playing Pikachu will give you absolutely no insight at all into how to play Fox, even though both are typically described as rushdown characters. The rushdown strategies used by Pikachu (attacking from unexpected angles from the air, aided by tjolts; shield mixups with multihits; QA zonebreaking) are radically different from the rushdown strategy used by Fox (dash-back call-your-shield-drop aggression; ground-speed-based zone breaking).
But if I play Chrom, it's not hard to play Lucina, or Ike, or Roy. They have the same playstyle in neutral.

When a character is described to me as a "sword" character, the following assets come to mind immediately:
-disjoint
-range
-arcing hitboxes
-susceptibility to whiff punishing
-reactionary
-likely has dangling legs (Meta Knight is an exception; I don't consider him a true sword character, though I know that Shaya at least disagrees).

This always gives me a sound idea of how to play the character and how to play against the character. ZSS does well at punishing swordie whiffs, and so she generally performs well in those MUs.

This is all coming from someone who more or less plays every sword character, often in tournament. Swordie players will be among the first to tell you that swords share more similarities as a group than almost every other group, if not all of them.

Fair enough.

 

[NairWizard]

But "dashing half of FD's length" doesn't apply to ZSS's initial dash, which lets her control space really well. Just being able to get in and out of your opponent's space and act out of it very quickly

When moving out of your opponent's range, you don't need to go *that* far out of range. You just need to reach beyond the tip of their possible range. A smaller initial dash works better for that usually. At close-mid spacing, you can do the same thing that dash back away accomplishes with walk back -> jump, walk back -> dash attack, spotdodge -> jab, or pivot grab.

I'll agree with you on the basis that there's one super hidden application though that ZSS players aren't using right now. And that is jab -> initial dash away or initial dash -> jab. For the away version, it puts you far enough away that some opponents like Mario can't follow you, so it's a good mixup against shield since it prompts them to do something silly and then you can punish that with a positional win. For the forward version, it's almost completely safe if they don't react to your dash in, and you can follow it up with so many mixups (including immediate up-bs out of spotdodge and shield).

 

[TTTTTsd]

To add to the argument NairWizard makes, jumping really high is almost universally a net benefit because the short hop mechanic prevents it from getting in the way while allowing high jumpers like ZSS and Falco to reap the benefits. These benefits include:
- recovery related ordeals
- being able to move around the stage better
and last and most importantly
- having more control over the defensive RPS post-combo.
To clarify on that last point, a lot of characters jump away and very often use their height to prep a move to throw out to land with or use this to escape, but ZSS and Falco can meet characters in the air at very high heights and continue to pressure them in ways a lot of characters can not. This is an amazing strength that I personally think does sort of explain itself, tbqh.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Its is intersting that ZSS seems to have managed to at least stay high-tier, or at least top 15 in characters in every Smash game she has been in. But the reason being entirely diffrent and using diffrent playstyles.

• In Brawl, She started every match with 4 throwable items right next to her. Creating lots of shenanigans
• In Smash 4 is was due to her down-throw ladder kill-combos and how janky they could get with rage
• Now in ultimate. It is simply that she has gotten an overall improved and very solid kit that meshes really well with the mechanics of the game

 

[MindlessFire]

Are we really talking about nerfs to Joker? The thing is in the top 129 or whatever of CEO you've got:
1. MkLeo
9. Wishes
33. Wrath
33. king_chris
129 Ross ?
129 Smiless

1 solo Joker and 5 partial Jokers. There are 11 Snakes and 13 Palutenas. I'm just saying don't have a knee jerk reaction to Leo. It's not like Joker is dominating the meta.

I would also like to add and compare in CEO 2019 to in CEO 2015 because these were the newest SSB games that made their first debut at CEO. Both and were used to win their respective tournaments. However, there were only 2 x that even made it to Top 32 in CEO 2019. CEO 2015 on the other hand, had 7 x in Top 32. Also, everyone unanimously agreed that was the best fighter in Super Smash Bros 4 at that time. Meanwhile, we can't seem to even agree whether or not is Top/High/Mid Tier, Top 5/10/15/20, best/2nd best/3rd best/etc character in the game because only one person (which also happens to be the best SSBU player in the world) dominates S Tier super major tournaments with him.

 

[Heracr055]

Oh wow, ZSS talk. Looks like the masses are finally catching up.
On a side note:

Are people still questioning this? is definitely Top Tier and (IMO) seems kind of like a jack-of-all-trades type character (kind of like ).

• She's fast, has a high jump height, the best initial dash in the game, and a good recovery.
• She has a good OOS Option in Up-B.
• She has decent range on some attacks such as Side-B and Up-Smash.
• She has good anti-air tools.
• She has a good projectile (Neutral-B).
• She has good juggling options and combos.

Her biggest weaknesses at the moment are that she's very susceptible to combos because of her height and fall speed (which combined with her weight means she dies early), she has trouble hitting short characters, and that she sometimes will get outranged by characters with long range/big disjointed hitboxes. And while this seems like some pretty major weaknesses, possessed a lot of the same weaknesses and he was being considered a Top 3 character by a lot of people near the end of Smash 4's lifespan.

ZSS is not an all-rounder at all. She has insane mobility and excellent, momentum changing options. What she does not have is an easy kit to use. ZSS demands precision, much more than an all rounder character would demand. Failure to have that precision results in Samus getting punished hard and dying early; comparatively, characters like Mario and the Pits don't suffer nearly as much off a mistake. She may have great disadvantage but those won't always protect you if you arent hitting your percentage window combos, as getting raw kills with her is fairly difficult. You can see how susceptible she is to getting blown up as easily as she blows up others in the CEO matches versus Ally. This high learning curve and unforgiving consequences of messing up your precision is a great reason why she isn't (and likely won't be) a popular character. If you thrive off having a pretty safe neutral, love having that insane clutch factor, revel in having so many options at once and possess the dedication to really learn precision, this character is for you. Trust me when I say she will reward you a hundred times over characters such as the Shotos, who have a "high" difficulty curve but whose attributes will always hold them back from greatness.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Oh wow, ZSS talk. Looks like the masses are finally catching up.
On a side note:


ZSS is not an all-rounder at all. She has insane mobility and excellent, momentum changing options. What she does not have is an easy kit to use. ZSS demands precision, much more than an all rounder character would demand. Failure to have that precision results in Samus getting punished hard and dying early; comparatively, characters like Mario and the Pits don't suffer nearly as much off a mistake. She may have great disadvantage but those won't always protect you if you arent hitting your percentage window combos, as getting raw kills with her is fairly difficult. You can see how susceptible she is to getting blown up as easily as she blows up others in the CEO matches versus Ally. This high learning curve and unforgiving consequences of messing up your precision is a great reason why she isn't (and likely won't be) a popular character. If you thrive off having a pretty safe neutral, love having that insane clutch factor, revel in having so many options at once and possess the dedication to really learn precision, this character is for you. Trust me when I say she will reward you a hundred times over characters such as the Shotos, who have a "high" difficulty curve but whose attributes will always hold them back from greatness.

It's true that she does have a high skill curve which means she will most likely never be very popular. Also, while it is true that she doesn't kill nearly as early as most characters, characters like Sheik and Bayo struggle to kill most characters onstage until 140% or higher so ZSS killing at in the low 100%s doesn't seem nearly as bad when you put it in that perspective.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This thread never ceases to amuse me.

Without down b, ZSS would drop an entire tier.

Easy to go on and on about great neutral and stage control, when you ignore a game state.

 

[Lacrimosa]

This thread never ceases to amuse me.

Without down b, ZSS would drop an entire tier.

Easy to go on and on about great neutral and stage control, when you ignore a game state.

Which would still be high tier.
Also, I disagree. Her Flip Kick is essential to get out of disadvantage. Other than that, there's no real thing that can get her out there. However, the versatility of the move is just too big: Getting out of disadvantage and having a kill setup (grounding your opponent) in one move just feels a bit cheap. It's also a very fast move.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The mental load she faces is explicitly less than what many other chars face when put in poor situations.

My point is irrefutable.

 

[ARISTOS]

Which would still be high tier.
Also, I disagree. Her Flip Kick is essential to get out of disadvantage. Other than that, there's no real thing that can get her out there. However, the versatility of the move is just too big: Getting out of disadvantage and having a kill setup (grounding your opponent) in one move just feels a bit cheap. It's also a very fast move.

Nonsense, ZSS's overally incredible aerial maneuverability in addition to a stall-and-fall in dair and b-reverse shenanigans with paralyzer make hitting her in disadvantage a chore even without Flip Kick. Flip Kick just takes it to a whole 'nother level by making attempts to hit her actually threaten you lol.

If ZSS wants to she can just run and run and run

 

[Tri Knight]

If ZSS wants to she can just run and run and run

I was in a small local a few weeks back playing as Young Link vs ZSS and this was happening to me. Couldn't lock her down for the life of me. She was all over the place. Even punishing my set-ups a couple times for being JUST too slow. Her aerial mobility is top tier for sure.

Although, come to think of it, I've always had trouble with ZSS.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Nonsense, ZSS's overally incredible aerial maneuverability in addition to a stall-and-fall in dair and b-reverse shenanigans with paralyzer make hitting her in disadvantage a chore even without Flip Kick. Flip Kick just takes it to a whole 'nother level by making attempts to hit her actually threaten you lol.

If ZSS wants to she can just run and run and run

You don't think losing/nerfing downB would hurt her disadvantage state at all? That was the point I was attacking here.

 

[DelugeFGC]

ZSS would probably suffer immensely if not for the chicanery she can pull using flip kick. On top of her movement, air speed and everything else it makes her an extremely slippery character who can both play a keepaway neutral for eons while she tries to gain a lead herself, and easily punish over-extensions or missed timings from her opponent.

If she lost that Down-B or it was nerfed into oblivion, she'd drop more than just one tier (presuming we're putting her in top tier in this hypothetical) in my opinion, she'd be mid-tier at best if that happened. It's integral to her gameplan and she doesn't work nearly as efficiently without it.

 

[Shaya]

Without Down-B, Zero Suit would drop more than a tier.
It significantly ties and accentuates her entire kit and game plan.

The 25%ish distance (well, more accurately 'control of distance') nerf for an entire patch felt EXTREMELY significant.
To the point that I wasn't feeling top vibes anymore. The reversal of that nerf felt alongside most of the other top tiers being nerfed, has left her feeling like one of the best characters in the game. So, just one relatively tiny nerf probably drops her a tier or more.

The most prominent of those 'worse' feelings was to do with recovery. So hmm, I would trade that distance nerf for the ledge tether snap range being increased. Yes it would be a lot worse in disadvantage on stage too, but "that's fine". I'm not sure I get why Joker gets to have a stage-sized tether grab zone but zero suit's is smaller than her tether's range.

Now without it, listing a few specs is great and all, but she would be in a bit of a ****ty situation - she doesn't have a disadvantage landing aerial, and she can attempt to fair/bair/nair but the variation of timing for them to allow any sort of protection is... minimal.

No overt offense intended, but if you're having issues with down air in disadvantage from zero suit, you're probably playing wifi, or have poor reaction speed. If Zero suit is using paralyzer wave bounces to get out of a bad situation... that's pretty laughable. It can reverse a semi-disadvantage situation near the ground, but that's about it.
Similar spiel to flip jump too (you're probably playing wifi or can't react well enough). The move is pretty obnoxious online for most of the cast to deal with, thus I felt that previous nerf was 'justified' within the rationale of them keeping wifi interactions sane. BUT I maintain it's counter play is still quite apparent, and the list of chars who shouldn't be punishing her for bouncing is very minor indeed OFFLINE.

Ult Zero Suit Flip Jump animation is no longer intangible besides her head/torso, so outright hitting her out of it is a lot easier than S4.
IF zero suit really is in a disadvantage position, have you ever tried guessing which direction she's going to flip jump in, helping to force it through a minor empty movement bait, then swing in the space that she'd travel in if she'd use it?
No? Have you heard of set play before?

What does ZSS Flip Jump beat in disadvantage? Frame trap attempts on it's start up position. It's also a lot more powerful if ZSS is far from the ground and you give up your entire advantage state in an instant by expelling your resources/overtly committing to trying to hit her in her current position (jumping with a rising aerial when she isn't in hitstun).
*ding ding*.

Flip Jump is easily one of the best moves in the game.
But dealing with it isn't THAT difficult, if you handle it properly you get between half a second to a second-plus to punish her, and it's not like some Snake's 5 frame start up dash attack that by the time you react to it he's able to act again, you have half a second to SEE what's happening before hand.
She doesn't "ignore" a game state, she just ignores your character's (or more likely, player's) one-step advantage state flow chart.
Thinking two or three steps ahead is vital for dealing with most good projectile characters in the game, or dealing with smart players above mid level. Zero Suit just happens to use her body rather than shooting said projectile.

I don't see issues with it being nerfed a bit, especially to help out mid-level or lower play, but you aren't going anywhere as a competitor if you look at this move as "omg it's over I lose automatically, what's the point of even trying to hit her?"



Alsoooo
ZSS Jab1 is good, but it doesn't shut down characters.
If she nairs your shield and jab1s, and you hold your shield for 7 frames afterwards, she can no longer input jab2 and you now have 10+ frames to oos punish. If she continues her jabs you have all the time in the world.

The one timing of letting go of your shield or whatever, covers almost the entirety of her variability with a parry window (6 frame parry window, vs 7 frame variation of jab2 coming out).

 

[TTTTTsd]

Without Down-B, Zero Suit would drop more than a tier.
It significantly ties and accentuates her entire kit and game plan.

The 25%ish distance (well, more accurately 'control of distance') nerf for an entire patch felt EXTREMELY significant.
To the point that I wasn't feeling top vibes anymore. The reversal of that nerf felt alongside most of the other top tiers being nerfed, has left her feeling like one of the best characters in the game. So, just one relatively tiny nerf probably drops her a tier or more.

The most prominent of those 'worse' feelings was to do with recovery. So hmm, I would trade that distance nerf for the ledge tether snap range being increased. Yes it would be a lot worse in disadvantage on stage too, but "that's fine". I'm not sure I get why Joker gets to have a stage-sized tether grab zone but zero suit's is smaller than her tether's range.

Now without it, listing a few specs is great and all, but she would be in a bit of a ****ty situation - she doesn't have a disadvantage landing aerial, and she can attempt to fair/bair/nair but the variation of timing for them to allow any sort of protection is... minimal.

No overt offense intended, but if you're having issues with down air in disadvantage from zero suit, you're probably playing wifi, or are old/have bad reaction speed. If Zero suit is using paralyzer wave bounces to get out of a bad situation... that's pretty laughable. It can reverse a semi-disadvantage situation near the ground, but that's about it.
Similar spiel to flip jump too (you're probably playing wifi or can't react well enough). The move is pretty obnoxious online for most of the cast to deal with, thus I felt that previous nerf was 'justified' within the rationale of them keeping wifi interactions sane. BUT I maintain it's counter play is still quite apparent, and the list of chars who shouldn't be punishing her for bouncing is very minor indeed OFFLINE.

Ult Zero Suit Flip Jump animation is no longer intangible besides her head/torso, so outright hitting her out of it is a lot easier than S4.
IF zero suit really is in a disadvantage position, have you ever tried guessing which direction she's going to flip jump in, helping to force it through a minor empty movement bait, then swing in the space that she'd travel in if she'd use it?
No? Have you heard of set play before?

What does ZSS Flip Jump beat in disadvantage? Frame trap attempts on it's start up position. It's also a lot more powerful if ZSS is far from the ground and you give up your entire advantage state in an instant by expelling your resources/overtly committing to trying to hit her in her current position (jumping with a rising aerial when she isn't in hitstun).
*ding ding*.

Flip Jump is easily one of the best moves in the game.
But dealing with it isn't THAT difficult, if you handle it properly you get between half a second to a second-plus to punish her, and it's not like some Snake's 5 frame start up dash attack that by the time you react to it he's able to act again, you have half a second to SEE what's happening before hand.
She doesn't "ignore" a game state, she just ignores your character's (or more likely, player's) one-step advantage state flow chart.
Thinking two or three steps ahead is vital for dealing with most good projectile characters in the game, or dealing with smart players above mid level. Zero Suit just happens to use her body rather than shooting said projectile.

I don't see issues with it being nerfed a bit, especially to help out mid-level or lower play, but you aren't going anywhere as a competitor if you look at this move as "omg it's over I lose automatically, what's the point of even trying to hit her?"



Alsoooo
ZSS Jab1 is good, but it doesn't shut down characters.
If she nairs your shield and jab1s, and you hold your shield for 7 frames afterwards, she can no longer input jab2 and you now have 10+ frames to oos punish. If she continues her jabs you have all the time in the world.

The one timing of letting go of your shield or whatever, covers almost the entirety of her variability with a parry window (6 frame parry window, vs 7 frame variation of jab2 coming out).

This is all entirely true and I'd like to add that the way airdodges are in this game by proxy makes the move a lot less obnoxious than it was in S4 (esp coupled with jumpsquat and movement changes here), because in S4 you'd often have to guess between airdodge and Flip Jump and a good chunk of characters couldn't deal or pressure it (also due to the S4 intangibility it had)

 

[NairWizard]

Easy to go on and on about great neutral and stage control, when you ignore a game state.

Totally disagree. If you can't punish down b used in disadvantage at least half the time then you are bad at (that aspect of) the matchup. The move is good, for sure, but half the reason it stands out is that it can lead to death in so many situations.

More generally to everyone in this thread: if you're not relying on twitch last-second reactions in advantage you are doing it wrong. You should be able to feel the twitch movement on your hand and yes it is physical exercise and strains your hand. If you don't feel that snap strain feeling then you aren't really reacting to things. Watch any top player play the game and watch the way their arms move in advantage and disadvantage. All snap reactions. If you aren't punishing flip kick you are over extending instead of forcing your body to react.

It's the same reason that I think that Pikachu QA is overrated in disadvantage. Only even more in that case because QA can't ever take your stock.

Alsoooo
ZSS Jab1 is good, but it doesn't shut down characters.
If she nairs your shield and jab1s, and you hold your shield for 7 frames afterwards, she can no longer input jab2 and you now have 10+ frames to oos punish.

The matchups in which you are doing this are the matchups where the risk of this punish is smallest, such as vs Greninja. Greninjas ground mobility prevents you from getting into the right spacing a third of the time from the air. But you can get into jab1 spacing and force him into the air. That's how you win the matchup.

It doesn't shut down characters in the sense that it provides free wins, since it has obvious counterplay (just like flip kick), but it makes several otherwise losing matchups into even ones or even matchups into slightly winning ones.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So ZSS Flip-Jump. Would you consider it among the top 10 or even 5moves in the game? It seems like its being talked like that. Its certianly one of the most versatile specials .
Used for Recovery. To edgeguard, to escpape disadvantage, and of course is a very strong attack both for the jump and the follow-up kick attack.

Also yeah ZSS flip-jump is a big factor on wjy she is so good. But also would Snake a contender for best in the gameif he got his grenades nerfed signifigantly? And Palu woukd drop one or even more tiers if her nair got gutted?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Totally disagree. If you can't punish down b used in disadvantage at least half the time then you are bad at (that aspect of) the matchup. The move is good, for sure, but half the reason it stands out is that it can lead to death in so many situations.

More generally to everyone in this thread: if you're not relying on twitch last-second reactions in advantage you are doing it wrong. You should be able to feel the twitch movement on your hand and yes it is physical exercise and strains your hand. If you don't feel that snap strain feeling then you aren't really reacting to things. Watch any top player play the game and watch the way their arms move in advantage and disadvantage. All snap reactions. If you aren't punishing flip kick you are over extending instead of forcing your body to react.

It's the same reason that I think that Pikachu QA is overrated in disadvantage. Only even more in that case because QA can't ever take your stock.



The matchups in which you are doing this are the matchups where the risk of this punish is smallest, such as vs Greninja. Greninjas ground mobility prevents you from getting into the right spacing a third of the time from the air. But you can get into jab1 spacing and force him into the air. That's how you win the matchup.

It doesn't shut down characters in the sense that it provides free wins, since it has obvious counterplay (just like flip kick), but it makes several otherwise losing matchups into even ones or even matchups into slightly winning ones.

Please don't act as if the move is a liability or hinders her gameplan.

If you take away the move and replace it with something else, she drops a tier.

PERIOD.

Yes, she is great in other areas. However, a move that gets out of disadvantage AND can threaten as a set-up tool?

Let's not do this dance bro.

We are both way too intelligent for this ****.

 

[SwagGuy99]

And Palu woukd drop one or even more tiers if her nair got gutted?

IMO yes she would. It's arguably her best move and ties her kit together. Without it, her combo potential would be significantly worse which means she has a lot less ways of inflicting a lot of damage on a character outside of up-air juggling.

Also, with all of the ZSS talk going around, I will say that if down-b got gutted, she would drop out of top tier at least and would probably sink down into the middle of high tier. It's what makes her recovery and disadvantage so good and without it, her recovery would be average at best and her disadvantage would be worse.

 

[NairWizard]

Please don't act as if the move is a liability or hinders her gameplan.

If you take away the move and replace it with something else, she drops a tier.

PERIOD.

Yes, she is great in other areas. However, a move that gets out of disadvantage AND can threaten as a set-up tool?

No one said that losing Flip Kick wouldn't drop ZSS a tier or that it's a liability. The move's quality is obvious, and not only that, but it's necessary for her disadvantage since she doesn't have wide aerials like Lucina or fast breakout n-airs like Ness/Mario; of course losing such a move would drop her a tier. Losing Monkey Flip would cause Diddy to fall a tier too. Losing Quick Attack would make Pikachu drop a tier. Heck, Ganon losing his n-air would drop a tier. (assuming that they didn't trade these moves for something notably better, that is).

What I'm taking issue with is your saying that she "ignores a gamestate." She doesn't. Neither did S4 Pikachu because of QA, or S4 Meta Knight because of Dimensioncal Cape, or Ultimate Palutena because of Warp.

Where Flip Kick really shines though compared to these moves is its ability to also take your stock.

We are both way too intelligent for this ****.

Being intelligent doesn't preclude someone from being wrong. I've been wrong all the time. You've been wrong all the time. When someone says something that is wrong they deserve to be informed. That is the privilege of intelligence, don't you think so?

 

[Thinkaman]

Who is lower tier, ZSS without Flip Kick or Charizard?

Trick question, characters not in the game don't have tiers, NEXT.

 

[Vyrnx]

More generally to everyone in this thread: if you're not relying on twitch last-second reactions in advantage you are doing it wrong. You should be able to feel the twitch movement on your hand and yes it is physical exercise and strains your hand. If you don't feel that snap strain feeling then you aren't really reacting to things. Watch any top player play the game and watch the way their arms move in advantage and disadvantage. All snap reactions. If you aren't punishing flip kick you are over extending instead of forcing your body to react.

It's the same reason that I think that Pikachu QA is overrated in disadvantage. Only even more in that case because QA can't ever take your stock.

I was actually just thinking about this. For a good example of what you're describing, here's Samsora reacting to Quick Attack with a float nair (around 21:28)--the fact that it's purely reaction (or more precisely a combination of anticipation and reaction) can be proven by looking at Samsora in the player cam. There's an obvious physical reaction to the start up on Quick Attack :

This is just one interaction, but I think it's a pretty good example of a physical reaction--then I'd recommend watching the edgeguard/ledge trap scenario starting at 13:50, and again, pay attention to Samsora in the player cam: in sequence, he covers the startup on Quick Attack with turnip throw down, predicts the timing of Esam's ledge drop jump with turnip throw back, and then finally ends the sequence by reacting to Quick Attack's startup and bairing, sealing the stock.

Maybe a better example is the sequence of anti-airing around 20:45. After winning neutral with bair dash attack, Samsora reacts to Esam's falling dair with utilt, then reacts to Esam's rightward drift with usmash, which Esam air dodges through. But then Samsora reacts to his landing lag with ftilt, and then reacts to Esam's falling fair with utilt and finishes the sequence with uair. And the entire time you can see clear physical reactions in the player cam. It's really pretty cool.

Samsora's reactions are an amazing example of "snap reactions" because they're so pronounced. In fact, he's probably the best player to watch to get a sense of how top players balance reactions and reads, because when it's a reaction, he makes it very obvious physically--you'll notice that for Samsora, at least, his gameplay is mostly a series of reactions. I promise you other top players are doing the exact same thing, whether or not they bob their head like Samsora.

For a more anecdotal non-top level example, a good player in my area mains Pikachu. I play ZSS vs him when we meet in bracket. When I use dash grab in neutral, he has an exaggerated physical response to it--but it's actually making a difference, because more often than not he gets a spot dodge out in time. That's really something that I very rarely come across--and never ever ever online.

You'll also hear top players talk about how they combine anticipation with reaction. This is probably almost always true--but beyond this, the reaction itself also has to be 'physical', or a 'snap'--if you watch other parts of the Esam Samsora money match, you'll see that almost every time Esam Quick Attacks, Samsora has some sort of physical response--whether or not he gets off a successful punish.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

You touched on anticipation but that does play a large part in reaction. Especially in a game with input lag. When it comes to reacting, knowledge of players habits, character tendencies and the game situation all definitely aid in the speed of the reaction. It's one of the larger things that separate high and top level play.

A thing to keep in mind is the attributes of the move your trying to react to. QA had 15 frames of start up, Pikachu makes a distinct "Pi" sound (you react to sound faster than you do sight). And the character makes a distinct shift in animation when starting the move. Even slower old people like myself can react to that reliably because you get a lot of information the move is coming as well as time. Compared to say ZSS flip jump. I'm not sure of the startup before she starts moving but it does seem fairly quick, the sound is makes is distinct from her other sound effects but does sound kinda like a generic woosh sound and her animation shift while sudden, flows pretty well from her other animations, it's not like the jarring difference you see in Pikachu when he QAs. It could be because I'm older and don't react a fast as I used to (I still react fairly fast but obviously not like I was when I was 18)but by time I've reacted to ZSS flip jump she's almost passing over me and able to place a very threatening hitbox under herself. This puts more emphasis on having situational awareness to know it's an option for her in the situation she's in.

 

[Thinkaman]

Random assortment of thoughts on the most recent OrionStats character rankings, after CEO + some casual play with new faces:

remains numerically on top despite skipping top 32 of CEO. At this (specific, isolated) rate, Snake will eventually pass him, but Wolf will never fall below #2 except for possibly (eventually) Joker. Do we expect more of a decline? Surely there will be a very high floor of support simply due to how beginner-friendly he is--Wolf might be Ultimate's easiest character to play at a baseline top ~100,000 level.

is going very strong, but there's also a sense (at least as a spectator) that people are figuring out anti-Snake. Still hyped about that Isabelle set; I've been playing some Isabelle against Snake and have actually had an easy time with the matchup.

has passed to be our #3 lifetime performer as of now, though they were and are close. I feel like Palu gets less talk than literally every other top character, but maybe I just happen to miss it.

is just sort of treading water at #5. He remains popular, and is in less of a decline than the characters I'm about to mention, but as things currently stand will be eventually passed by few up-and-coming characters from below. This is true for the less popular as well.

are falling slowly, but they are falling. Their recent performance numbers are those of a solid top 20 character, not a solid top 10. Note that is also in a similar momentary decline, without quite as much previous popularity.

is having a great period. Like, really great. Inkling could very concievably end up top 5 or top 3 at this rate, particularly if any of the good B-tier Inklings join Cosmo in the upper ranks.

How long before we can accept that is a really good character? PT remains a top performer in spite of not having an "outlier" top 30 player leading the charge and helping inflate these results by attending tons of majors. Part of this comes from being the #1 most played character in competitive play, but this is not some regional wall like Ness or Yoshi. I don't have to remind anyone that PTs are making top 8s and doing very well against the best of the best players. PTs performance is increasing, not petering out. This could change at any time, but breaking top 10 or even top 8 seems likely as things stand now.

is also having a bit of a moment. He's putting up big results, and has passed the characters I'm about to mention. It would also not be at all surprising to see him in the top 10.

are just sort of chilling outside of top 10, with little indication that they are set to break in. ZSS is certainly possible if people actually play the character, but right now I don't need to tell you that Marss is propping her numbers up a ton by himself. Yet if Nairo converted back, the calculus could change considerably.

on the other hand is continue to see more success and I expect to eventually pass them. Yet another character whose recent performance exceeds that of Fox, Pichu, Lucina, ect.

The same cannot be said for and , who are slipping. But not as much as , who have already fallen behind a few characters and will fall several more at this rate.

continues his ascent, performing close to Snake levels. However, take away MKLeo and you are left with modest levels more on par with Inkling or Pokemon Trainer. Sure, you can say this sort of thing for any character good enough to be played by a top player, but MKLeo is single-handedly responsible for over 20% of Joker's weighted stats--no other player-character relationship comes close to this for anyone in the top half of the roster, except I guess Pika.

But ! Falcon's aggregate results increased more than Joker's! (And remember, MKLeo scored more points for Joker than Marss did for Falcon.) I'm not saying Falcon will keep this honeymoon period up forever, but if he did he'd be top 5, easy. Think about that.

Speaking of, are on the up-and-up. Are Pichu players switching to Pika as expected?

and did not have a good week. The other median characters, , and just sort of existing as they always have. Falco is showing a little more life than the others, but it's not yet significant.

are doing poorly. I expect more players to get bored with them, and for them to fall out of the lifetime top 50 entirely in spite of their initial popularity.

But at least they aren't in a compelte freefall like . Gracious, no one is playing this character anymore. This is also true for ; the buffs simply didn't draw people back.

are all still floating outside the median. Only DK and Lucario show any current trend towards maybe someday rising.

is rocketing upwards, for a contextually limited definition of the word where "rocket" means suddenly performing like a top 50 character instead of a bottom tier. Dabuz is responsible for about half of this by himself.

Meanwhile and are getting left behind, falling closer to the levels of and

Magister, and by that I mean , had a bad week at CEO. Seriously, no one else plays this character. But me.

Of the remaining characters, it was a good week for , but nothing anyone outside this tier would brag about. Worth mentioning though, that Mac doubled his lifetime performance score, and Kirby almost tripled his. So while they are still at the bottom, those buffs seemed to have finally be appreciated, and at this rate neither will be in bottom 10 or even bottom 15.

On the other hand, no one is playing , and they might as well not be playing . Magic boys have fallen off after initial interest, has a more attractive family member, is dead, and as always the only guy less popular than the two are the two .



Here's a not-a-tier-list based on performance derivatives, with some subjective grease here and there:

Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Tier 4:
Tier 5:
Tier 6:
Inferior Beings:
Currently Dead:

 

[Iridium]

Random assortment of thoughts on the most recent OrionStats character rankings, after CEO + some casual play with new faces:

remains numerically on top despite skipping top 32 of CEO. At this (specific, isolated) rate, Snake will eventually pass him, but Wolf will never fall below #2 except for possibly (eventually) Joker. Do we expect more of a decline? Surely there will be a very high floor of support simply due to how beginner-friendly he is--Wolf might be Ultimate's easiest character to play at a baseline top ~100,000 level.

is going very strong, but there's also a sense (at least as a spectator) that people are figuring out anti-Snake. Still hyped about that Isabelle set; I've been playing some Isabelle against Snake and have actually had an easy time with the matchup.

has passed to be our #3 lifetime performer as of now, though they were and are close. I feel like Palu gets less talk than literally every other top character, but maybe I just happen to miss it.

is just sort of treading water at #5. He remains popular, and is in less of a decline than the characters I'm about to mention, but as things currently stand will be eventually passed by few up-and-coming characters from below. This is true for the less popular as well.

are falling slowly, but they are falling. Their recent performance numbers are those of a solid top 20 character, not a solid top 10. Note that is also in a similar momentary decline, without quite as much previous popularity.

is having a great period. Like, really great. Inkling could very concievably end up top 5 or top 3 at this rate, particularly if any of the good B-tier Inklings join Cosmo in the upper ranks.

How long before we can accept that is a really good character? PT remains a top performer in spite of not having an "outlier" top 30 player leading the charge and helping inflate these results by attending tons of majors. Part of this comes from being the #1 most played character in competitive play, but this is not some regional wall like Ness or Yoshi. I don't have to remind anyone that PTs are making top 8s and doing very well against the best of the best players. PTs performance is increasing, not petering out. This could change at any time, but breaking top 10 or even top 8 seems likely as things stand now.

is also having a bit of a moment. He's putting up big results, and has passed the characters I'm about to mention. It would also not be at all surprising to see him in the top 10.

are just sort of chilling outside of top 10, with little indication that they are set to break in. ZSS is certainly possible if people actually play the character, but right now I don't need to tell you that Marss is propping her numbers up a ton by himself. Yet if Nairo converted back, the calculus could change considerably.

on the other hand is continue to see more success and I expect to eventually pass them. Yet another character whose recent performance exceeds that of Fox, Pichu, Lucina, ect.

The same cannot be said for and , who are slipping. But not as much as , who have already fallen behind a few characters and will fall several more at this rate.

continues his ascent, performing close to Snake levels. However, take away MKLeo and you are left with modest levels more on par with Inkling or Pokemon Trainer. Sure, you can say this sort of thing for any character good enough to be played by a top player, but MKLeo is single-handedly responsible for over 20% of Joker's weighted stats--no other player-character relationship comes close to this for anyone in the top half of the roster, except I guess Pika.

But ! Falcon's aggregate results increased more than Joker's! (And remember, MKLeo scored more points for Joker than Marss did for Falcon.) I'm not saying Falcon will keep this honeymoon period up forever, but if he did he'd be top 5, easy. Think about that.

Speaking of, are on the up-and-up. Are Pichu players switching to Pika as expected?

and did not have a good week. The other median characters, , and just sort of existing as they always have. Falco is showing a little more life than the others, but it's not yet significant.

are doing poorly. I expect more players to get bored with them, and for them to fall out of the lifetime top 50 entirely in spite of their initial popularity.

But at least they aren't in a compelte freefall like . Gracious, no one is playing this character anymore. This is also true for ; the buffs simply didn't draw people back.

are all still floating outside the median. Only DK and Lucario show any current trend towards maybe someday rising.

is rocketing upwards, for a contextually limited definition of the word where "rocket" means suddenly performing like a top 50 character instead of a bottom tier. Dabuz is responsible for about half of this by himself.

Meanwhile and are getting left behind, falling closer to the levels of and

Magister, and by that I mean , had a bad week at CEO. Seriously, no one else plays this character. But me.

Of the remaining characters, it was a good week for , but nothing anyone outside this tier would brag about. Worth mentioning though, that Mac doubled his lifetime performance score, and Kirby almost tripled his. So while they are still at the bottom, those buffs seemed to have finally be appreciated, and at this rate neither will be in bottom 10 or even bottom 15.

On the other hand, no one is playing , and they might as well not be playing . Magic boys have fallen off after initial interest, has a more attractive family member, is dead, and as always the only guy less popular than the two are the two .



Here's a not-a-tier-list based on performance derivatives, with some subjective grease here and there:

Tier 1:
Tier 2:
Tier 3:
Tier 4:
Tier 5:
Tier 6:
Inferior Beings:
Currently Dead:

The Belmonts have most likely had the worst decline out of any character in the game, and I pity them. It really shows how unpopular they are in the meta, and it's not very surprising. Maybe they weren't exactly as good as many people thought initially, but they still struggle so hard in disadvantage state just because they don't have any moves that function as good combo breakers. Their recoveries are too exploitable, even with a tether available. Only in MUs where the opposing character truly struggles to deal with being outranged, such as , do they notably succeed. Doesn't help that their playerbase is rather small, and the only player who has made waves as of now is Riddles. They're just too obscure.

And it's interesting how Fox almost always seems to go through the same story. He appears to have a sudden decline with other observable top tiers finding more use than him, yet still provides enough results to stay among the upper top of the cast. I doubt Light carries too much weight on his results, but he's honestly one of few Fox mains to achieve any significant peaks at the highest level of play.

 

[Gleam]

I don't think any character has fallen as far as since his debut. A character who had once ranked #26 on Orion, now at #43.

had suffered similarly, but this week has shown some major improvements. I think he was like #43 or in the 40s himself and then jumped up to #37.

I fully expect that Ridley will drop close to #50+ on Orion, eventually surpassed by in terms of Results.

Both Vreyus and Trela, though while not condescending of the character, make it abundantly clear they are tired of the character. The thing that made Ridley good and able to earn near High Tier spots no longer remains in the current meta. I've told the Ridley Board the same thing but Ridley is in desperate need of buffs now. He is stagnant, constantly dropping and if nothing changes, he will be the Low Tier garbage people wanted to put him in at the beginning.

My only hope is, Nintendo will stop looking at Ridley's Final Smash and start looking at the things that really need to be fixed.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I don't know if I'd put Zelda in the Tier 5 but it shows that there are only really two persons that are playing her that high and Myst seems to go more Bayonetta nowadays but pulls her out when things get more dire. So I'm confident he will keep playing her but him not going to CEO didn't really help, either (sounds harsh, but I don't mean it like that at all.)
However, I'd still say she doesn't show the same development as Diddy as Diddy seems to grow ever bigger and Zelda roughly stays the same but will probably decline as Ven has said he will compete way less after Evo.
She's pretty much the same as Luigi or G&W: Only one or two players playing her, getting good results here and there but fails to attract a larger playerbase.

All under the assumption she and the other chars I mentioned won't get any buffs in the 4.0 update when "The Hero" arrives.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't think any character has fallen as far as since his debut. A character who had once ranked #26 on Orion, now at #43.

had suffered similarly, but this week has shown some major improvements. I think he was like #43 or in the 40s himself and then jumped up to #37.

I fully expect that Ridley will drop close to #50+ on Orion, eventually surpassed by in terms of Results.

Both Vreyus and Trela, though while not condescending of the character, make it abundantly clear they are tired of the character. The thing that made Ridley good and able to earn near High Tier spots no longer remains in the current meta. I've told the Ridley Board the same thing but Ridley is in desperate need of buffs now. He is stagnant, constantly dropping and if nothing changes, he will be the Low Tier garbage people wanted to put him in at the beginning.

My only hope is, Nintendo will stop looking at Ridley's Final Smash and start looking at the things that really need to be fixed.

Hot take: Ridley will always be the most unpopular superheavy even with buffs, unless they go so far as to make him superior to the others in every way except negligible weight, or fall off the wagon and resort to band-aid kill confirms again. Currently Bowser succeeds by being the most well-rounded superheavy: good damage & combos, decent reach with fire breath, decent mobility, defence in the form of fortress plus some armour and a not terrible recovery mitigated by high weight. But what makes him & the others more appealing I feel is less a matter of potency and more so the others being more straightforward: Bowser & DK are mainly about getting in close and clobbering their foes while relying on their weight to cover their punishing mistakes, while Dedede and K. Rool prefer to take up defensive positions and punish foes trying to approach. Ridley can potentially play in both of those styles effectively, with the added bonus of more flexible air mobility and recovery. But with a (faithful) lack of any defensive options and lower weight, he suffers more than all of them if his player gets called out; a predictable Ridley is a dead Ridley.

So I reiterate: even if you tone up some of his moves or make his unique strengths more pronounced, unless he ends up severely outclassing the other superheavies (which is not healthy), the need to be able to shift playstyles on a dime or die will forever deter a larger amount of players picking him up. We're even seeing this with Pichu now.

 

[Rizen]

As I predicted 's falling into obscurity. Tweek not attending CEO hurt but who's to say Tweek would have used him anyway? Strike's the only other top 100 player but he mostly uses . YL's not a character you can simply pick up and do well with. He's extremely technical and needs to know MUs. Otherwise you get sets like this one with Mr.R where he can't kill until 200%.
https://youtu.be/jcgEf5hGVZY
If he was easier to use, YL could do well as a counterpick character. He has some oddly good MUs like winning vs and does well on big stages and FD.
Unfortunately Joker got released right as the nerf waves hit so YL didn't really gain popularity from them. I'm not going to say YL's a sleeper top tier or anything like that but he is a lot better than his performances suggest.

 

[KirbySquad101]

In terms of , it's good to see he's found himself in a pretty comfortable spot for now, but I would be lying if I said it wasn't Maister that was pretty much carrying him. Which is kind of a shame since there are a lot of other GnW players (Widget, Snickeldorf, Dingus Joe) out there, but none of them have seemed to have grasped his toolkit as well as Maister has.

It does make me wish at times Regi would be more active since he had a really good G&W in SSB4, but it's alright nonetheless.

Attempting to play him as linear-like as he was in SSB4 (i.e. fishing for the same kill move, shield into grab), given how much he new stuff he gained in place of up smash's and Toot-Toot's nerfs.

I don't know if I'd put Zelda in the Tier 5 but it shows that there are only really two persons that are playing her that high and Myst seems to go more Bayonetta nowadays but pulls her out when things get more dire. So I'm confident he will keep playing her but him not going to CEO didn't really help, either (sounds harsh, but I don't mean it like that at all.)
However, I'd still say she doesn't show the same development as Diddy as Diddy seems to grow ever bigger and Zelda roughly stays the same but will probably decline as Ven has said he will compete way less after Evo.
She's pretty much the same as Luigi or G&W: Only one or two players playing her, getting good results here and there but fails to attract a larger playerbase.

All under the assumption she and the other chars I mentioned won't get any buffs in the 4.0 update when "The Hero" arrives.

I think Mystearica switching mostly to Bayonetta is probably what hurt 's results trend the most, which is why she's slightly placed lower than or , since while Ven had done pretty well at CEO, Elegant and Maister have been doing phenomenal at super-regionals, which is probably the one thing keeping them out of Tier 5.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's worth pointing out that balance is at a state where our bottom tiers of both performance and usage are governed more by cultural factors than mechanical strength.

I doubt any of us look at Pit and say "Gosh, what a trash character, definitely bottom of the barrel."

 

[Tri Knight]

As I predicted 's falling into obscurity. Tweek not attending CEO hurt but who's to say Tweek would have used him anyway?

Tis the fate of the Links. I expected no less. EDIT: I think Fatality might pick up Young Link as a secondary though.

Meanwhile T is a Link/Young Link main and is one of the top players in Japan isnt he?

 

[Lacrimosa]

In terms of , it's good to see he's found himself in a pretty comfortable spot for now, but I would be lying if I said it wasn't Maister that was pretty much carrying him. Which is kind of a shame since there are a lot of other GnW players (Widget, Snickeldorf, Dingus Joe) out there, but none of them have seemed to have grasped his toolkit as well as Maister has.

It does make me wish at times Regi would be more active since he had a really good G&W in SSB4, but it's alright nonetheless.

Attempting to play him as linear-like as he was in SSB4 (i.e. fishing for the same kill move, shield into grab), given how much he new stuff he gained in place of up smash's and Toot-Toot's nerfs.



I think Mystearica switching mostly to Bayonetta is probably what hurt 's results trend the most, which is why she's slightly placed lower than or , since while Ven had done pretty well at CEO, Elegant and Maister have been doing phenomenal at super-regionals, which is probably the one thing keeping them out of Tier 5.

Yeah, Myst played Bayo during Top 32 at a tournament (don'T know the name, but it also had 8bitman in it) and he went only Zelda at GF (losing there to 8bit) and Winner's Finals but not the rest of Top 32.

There are also Ears, JJ and Skaiza but they aren't on the level of Ven or Myst, so it's somewhat comparable to G&W. But Maister has that tournament win over yeti and took ESAM out.

Anyway, I may sound disappointed but it's good that she gets some exposure after all other Smash games^^.

 

[Rizen]

Tis the fate of the Links. I expected no less. EDIT: I think Fatality might pick up Young Link as a secondary though.

Meanwhile T is a Link/Young Link main and is one of the top players in Japan isnt he?

YL could be a good secondary to CF. YL's zoning compliments CF's rushdown style.
T's good but not a top player anymore. He didn't make the top 100 list.