Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
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One of the biggest surprises to me is actually how much PT is used. I would have never expected him to be that popular, especially compared to the other frequent characters.
PkMn Trainer has always been one of the more popular characters in the game, with their popularity rising even further the past month. It is sort of surprising at first considering that you have to be juggling between 3 different movesets, but the overall simplicity of the three movesets makes it not as a big deal as thought.

The trainer's popularity is rising even further recently after Puppeh's amazing run at CEO, to the point where the trainer is probably a contender for the absolute most popular character right now.
 
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$.A.F.

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PkMn Trainer has always been one of the more popular characters in the game, with their popularity rising even further the past month. It is sort of surprising at first considering that you have to be juggling between 3 different movesets, but the overall simplicity of the three movesets makes it not as a big deal as thought.

The trainer's popularity is rising even further recently after Puppeh's amazing run at CEO, to the point where the trainer is probably a contender for the absolute most popular character right now.
They have been since pre ceo
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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Albion 4 (895 entrants) (PGR A-tier) has begun.

Your first port of call, aside from the SmashGG page, BYO_Controller and Datteamlive Twitch streams, should be Barnard's Loop/Das Koopa's Reddit write-up: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/c9l3ay/albion_4_europes_biggest_major_viewers_guide_pgr/

You may also find this interesting - this is a "cheat sheet" of most of the players at Albion 4 and their characters: most interesting to me, though, is the character tallies. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...uNbflYmCXwRgg81_YR6nvdOgRo/edit#gid=636319998

The 10 most popular characters are:
:ultinkling: = 49
:ultpokemontrainer: = 42
:ultwolf: = 40
:ultpalutena: = 36
:ultsnake: = 35
:ultpichu: = 32
:ultlucina: = 31 (:ultmarth: = 6)
:ultjoker: = 28
:ultgreninja: = 26
:ultyoshi::ultfalco: (!!!) = 22
I'm surprised that Falco and Yoshi are so highly represented as most people seem to think they are mid tiers.
 

DelugeFGC

Smash Stick Space Cowboy
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A lot of characters that don't have 'can learn decently in a day' syndrome and/or play differently to your standard meta character get lumped into low and mid tier simply by virtue of being a bigger investment of time and effort, as they're not quite as easy to play as some other meta picks. This doesn't diminish their viability at all, it just means a lot of people will incorrectly guess at their viability because these characters can't simply be picked up and used as an immediate wrecking ball when paired with decent fundamentals alone. Yoshi and Falco both have this happen to them in Ultimate, as do several other characters that take more of an investment to learn than other ones.

It's nice to see that these things don't completely nuke the representation of certain characters across the board, I feel Ultimate is the Smash game to push the meta of non-obvious-top-tier characters forward if there ever has been with, the balance of this game and the size of its roster lends itself well to diversity. It's nice that's we're actually starting to see it. Low representation is probably the biggest pain for characters who have untapped / not widely showcased potential in terms of tier placements and viability speculation.. unless your name is Shulk or to a lesser extent Pikachu, anyway..
 
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Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
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Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,348
A lot of characters that don't have 'can learn decently in a day' syndrome and/or play differently to your standard meta character get lumped into low and mid tier simply by virtue of being a bigger investment of time and effort, as they're not quite as easy to play as some other meta picks. This doesn't diminish their viability at all, it just means a lot of people will incorrectly guess at their viability because these characters can't simply be picked up and used as an immediate wrecking ball when paired with decent fundamentals alone. Yoshi and Falco both have this happen to them in Ultimate, as do several other characters that take more of an investment to learn than other ones.

It's nice to see that these things don't completely nuke the representation of certain characters across the board, I feel Ultimate is the Smash game to push the meta of non-obvious-top-tier characters forward if there ever has been with, the balance of this game and the size of its roster lends itself well to diversity. It's nice that's we're actually starting to see it. Low representation is probably the biggest pain for characters who have untapped / not widely showcased potential in terms of tier placements and viability speculation.. unless your name is Shulk or to a lesser extent Pikachu, anyway..
Or Young Link as if you ask Rizen...
But yea I agree with you. Time and time again we hsve showed that characters that did not seem that good as some of the obvious top-tiers at first glance hsve gotten thier time to shine. .
Early in Ultimate's life nearly everyone thought :ultzss: was going to be doomed to mid-tier at best due to not having her SSB4 jank anymore. That is until Marss broke out and has been getting more results and success than he did back in his Smash 4 career.
:ultmario: has seen a similar example. People thought he was also going to fall off this game but he has acheived very solid results not. Also remeber the when quite a few people thought :ultsnake: was not top-tier (myself included) Yeah...
 
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$.A.F.

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A lot of characters that don't have 'can learn decently in a day' syndrome and/or play differently to your standard meta character get lumped into low and mid tier simply by virtue of being a bigger investment of time and effort, as they're not quite as easy to play as some other meta picks. This doesn't diminish their viability at all, it just means a lot of people will incorrectly guess at their viability because these characters can't simply be picked up and used as an immediate wrecking ball when paired with decent fundamentals alone. Yoshi and Falco both have this happen to them in Ultimate, as do several other characters that take more of an investment to learn than other ones.

It's nice to see that these things don't completely nuke the representation of certain characters across the board, I feel Ultimate is the Smash game to push the meta of non-obvious-top-tier characters forward if there ever has been with, the balance of this game and the size of its roster lends itself well to diversity. It's nice that's we're actually starting to see it. Low representation is probably the biggest pain for characters who have untapped / not widely showcased potential in terms of tier placements and viability speculation.. unless your name is Shulk or to a lesser extent Pikachu, anyway..
I’ve always thought that Yoshi was quite the easy character. He has an easy combo breaker, a good projectile, the easiest 0-60 combos in the game, etc. In fact even in 4 when he was noticeably worse, he was known as “brain dead” by quite a few people. I can’t see him being labeled complex in the slightest
 
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Since there was a lot of talk :ultridley: being in a dry spell a page ago, I am pleased to say that so far he seems to be doing good at Albion 4. Adom was able to win 3 straight sets and get Top 128 Winners side. Vreyus unfortunately lost his Winners Semi Final of pools against SkWirrel, a strong :ultduckhunt: user. Fortunately he was able to make out of his pool to Top 128 against Astra from Loser's. So Ridley has a shot at putting out a showing at this tourney.

On the :ultkirby: side of things, one of our Kirby's named Dred fell just short of Top 128 against SirShyGuy's :ultisabelle: after convincingly beating his :ultken:. He honestly could have won but missed seem key punishes and overall played rather recklessly. Meanwhile Jesuischoq, our top Kirby rep there, actually fell into Loser's rather early to Reiko who used :ultpikachu: (That said he later told me he was lot more nervous than usual which led to him shielding too much) and Reiko actually managed to get to top 128 Winners side from there. (In fact, Reiko was totally unseeded). But fortunately Jesuischoq managed to pull through Loser's and make it out of Pools from there, even beating competent :ultdarksamus:and :ultsnake: users along the way which have both given him issues in the past. Hopefully he's able to go in with the right mindset from the start tomorrow and do well.
 
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PK Gaming

Smash Lord
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I honestly think that we should work on educating top players before making tier lists. A lot of times as we’ve pointed out, they spread misinformation on characters that they don’t know much about. For example, ZeRo’s opinions on game and Watch and Yoshi in his first and second respective tier lists. Or Esam covering doctor Mario in the 3.1.0 tier list.
What makes any of us inherently more suited towards making a tier list than a top player? Because they get things wrong? I hate to break it to you, but I guarantee you that every single person regularly participating in this thread has and will continue to get things wrong about this game. Tier lists are supposed to foster discussion, not stand as this immutable list wherein everything is 100% correct. So what if ZeRo's got Game & Watch wrong. The response to that isn't "someone needs to educate him right away", it should "I see how he came to this conclusion, but I disagree."
 
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Meru is still in!
While he mainly uses Peach, Meru WILL get very far in bracket - so there is plenty of potential for Zelda to shine yet.
Keep an optimistic mind my friend, you may surprised at what could transpire!
Since when does Meru have a Zelda :o?
I only saw his Peach in like forever^^...
 

PK Bash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
186
what characters made it to the top 128?
...A hell of a lot.

Here are some of the more common characters (5 or more occurences)


:ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf::ultwolf:
:ultinkling::ultinkling::ultinkling::ultinkling::ultinkling::ultinkling::ultinkling::ultinkling::ultinkling::ultinkling:

:ultpalutena::ultpalutena::ultpalutena::ultpalutena::ultpalutena::ultpalutena::ultpalutena::ultpalutena::ultpalutena:
:ultsnake::ultsnake::ultsnake::ultsnake::ultsnake::ultsnake::ultsnake::ultsnake::ultsnake:
:ultjoker::ultjoker::ultjoker::ultjoker::ultjoker::ultjoker::ultjoker::ultjoker:
:ultpokemontrainer::ultpokemontrainer::ultpokemontrainer::ultpokemontrainer::ultpokemontrainer::ultpokemontrainer::ultpokemontrainer:
:ultgreninja::ultgreninja::ultgreninja::ultgreninja::ultgreninja::ultgreninja::ultgreninja:
:ultlucina::ultlucina::ultlucina::ultlucina::ultlucina::ultlucina::ultlucina:
:ultwario::ultwario::ultwario::ultwario::ultwario::ultwario:
:ultpichu::ultpichu::ultpichu::ultpichu::ultpichu::ultpichu:
:ultpikachu::ultpikachu::ultpikachu::ultpikachu::ultpikachu::ultpikachu:
:ultchrom::ultchrom::ultchrom::ultchrom::ultchrom:
:ultrob::ultrob::ultrob::ultrob::ultrob:
:ultfalcon::ultfalcon::ultfalcon::ultfalcon::ultfalcon:
:ultfox::ultfox::ultfox::ultfox::ultfox:
:ultbowser::ultbowser::ultbowser::ultbowser::ultbowser:

:ultolimar::ultolimar::ultolimar::ultolimar:
:ultfalco::ultfalco::ultfalco::ultfalco:
:ultdiddy::ultdiddy::ultdiddy::ultdiddy:
:ultsamus::ultsamus::ultsamus::ultdarksamus:
:ultroy::ultroy::ultroy::ultroy:
:ultincineroar::ultincineroar::ultincineroar::ultincineroar:
:ultzss::ultzss::ultzss:
:ultridley::ultridley::ultridley:
:ultyoshi::ultyoshi::ultyoshi:
:ultrichter::ultrichter::ultsimon:
:ultduckhunt::ultduckhunt::ultduckhunt:
:ultmario::ultmario::ultmario:
:ultgnw::ultgnw::ultgnw:
:ultshulk::ultshulk::ultshulk:
:ultlucario::ultlucario:
:ultyounglink::ultyounglink:
:ultwiifittrainer::ultwiifittrainer:
:ultzelda::ultzelda:
:ultlucas::ultlucas:
:ultdk::ultdk:
:ultdarkpit::ultdarkpit:
:ultmegaman::ultmegaman:
:ultgunner::ultgunner:
:ultswordfighter::ultswordfighter:
:ultpit::ultpit:
:ultlink::ultlink:
:ultcloud::ultcloud:
:ultness::ultness:
:ultike::ultike:
:ultpeach::ultpeach:
:ultken::ultken:
:ultpacman::ultpacman:
:ultrosalina::ultrosalina:
:ulticeclimbers:
:ultbayonetta:
:ultganondorf:
:ultjigglypuff:
:ultdoc:
:ultbowserjr:
:ultbrawler:
:ultluigi:
:ultkirby:
:ultmetaknight:
:ultsonic:
:ultisabelle:
:ultkingdedede:
:ultpiranha:
Note that this isn't necessarily reflective of each character's prominence in bracket (Diddy Kong is listed as a secondary every single time, for example)
 
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Messages
711
A lot of pew pew wolves... I'm not surprised by the top 10 most common though.

2 Links and 2 Young Links in top 128 isnt too bad. Hope to see them get far. But damn these Bowsers are really killing it.

I love the diversity overall though!
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,344
I found something interesting in doubles in Albion 4. The winner of the doubles event uses a unique team: the DLC team.
Marcbri:ultjoker: Greward:ultpiranha:

Those two notably won the event over teams like Glutonny:ultwario: Leon (?).

I think Joker does really well in doubles considering how the Rebellion Gauge fluctuates in doubles, and I think Piranha Plant functions better in doubles as the teammate can help alleviate Plant's big approaching weaknesses.
I'm not sure if they used this technique, I think the duo can potentially use Plant's Poison Breath in conjunction with Rebel's Guard to fill up the gauge instantly.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
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Messages
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United States of Russia
Or Young Link as if you ask Rizen...
Yeah but I'm not saying YL's top tier. It's mostly agreed that he's high tier.

:ultyounglink: has possibly the best projectile zoning in the game. Fire arrows are faster than other arrows and launch up. If Olimar's tossing Pikmin or Snake's tossing nades YL can force them to stop and react. I figured out YL can out-camp TL by spamming fire arrows. The fire property blows up nades and bombs but can't be absorbed like energy. Then he's also got bombs which are great in disadvantage and a boomerang that can return and stop combos. If Mega Man's shooting lemons or leaf shield YL can hop over it and angle his spam down (or up); this is a big plus that most projectile characters don't have. He gives Samus a ton of trouble to the point YB said don't play the MU. It's actually broken.

YL also has a f4 Nair to discourage rushdowns like Pichu and can true combo off a large part of his moveset like Dtilt. He, unlike Sheik, gets good damage too. YL has 3 aerials with only 6f of landing lag.

His downsides are poor but not terrible sword frame data with things like a f6 jab, a f12 tether grab, laggy smashes that are unsafe to throw out, less disjoint than bigger swords (which is why Lucina gives him trouble), and low kill power except for Fsmash. These flaws make his CQC game risky and being light means he can't tank much. It's not that his CQC is bad because he gets a lot of reward and Nair is amazing but he doesn't have safe options up close.

YL's too darn good to fall out of high tier but he's extremely technical so few people put the time into getting good with him. He's in a weird limbo where there are better, easier characters. I still think people are missing out by not using him as a counter pick character.
 
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Iridium

Smash Hero
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A lot of pew pew wolves... I'm not surprised by the top 10 most common though.

2 Links and 2 Young Links in top 128 isnt too bad. Hope to see them get far. But damn these Bowsers are really killing it.

I love the diversity overall though!
It's possible, but VinS and Otakuni have it a bit rough. Otakuni gets Glutonny first round tomorrow, and VinS has to deal with Mr.R most likely if he gets past adom first. I think there's a chance VinS can make top 32, but likely through losers. We'll see.

And I'm honestly surprised more Young Links don't seem to exist over in Europe. Considering Supahsemmie is the best one in the region and is here, the character should be fine as long as the upset count isn't as high as today.
 
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I found something interesting in doubles in Albion 4. The winner of the doubles event uses a unique team: the DLC team.
Marcbri:ultjoker: Greward:ultpiranha:

Those two notably won the event over teams like Glutonny:ultwario: Leon (?).

I think Joker does really well in doubles considering how the Rebellion Gauge fluctuates in doubles, and I think Piranha Plant functions better in doubles as the teammate can help alleviate Plant's big approaching weaknesses.
I'm not sure if they used this technique, I think the duo can potentially use Plant's Poison Breath in conjunction with Rebel's Guard to fill up the gauge instantly.
Leon is a Lucina.
 

$.A.F.

Smash Journeyman
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What makes any of us inherently more suited towards making a tier list than a top player? Because they get things wrong? I hate to break it to you, but I guarantee you that every single person regularly participating in this thread has and will continue to get things wrong about this game. Tier lists are supposed to foster discussion, not stand as this immutable list wherein everything is 100% correct. So what if ZeRo's got Game & Watch wrong. The response to that isn't "someone needs to educate him right away", it should "I see how he came to this conclusion, but I disagree."
Because while any of our overall game knowledge may not be up to par, a lot of people have a deep amount of character knowledge coming from months to years of maining said character. Most top players main and fight top tiers therefore making them not really read up on mid-low tier characters or sometimes even high tiers or more uncommon top tiers. That isn’t really their fault. But blatant misinformation isn’t a topic for discussion. If people are going to make judgements, they should at least have actual reasoning. You and I know this. Under or overrating characters is one thing, but blatantly spreading misinformation never achieves anything.
 
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And a :ultbowserjr:at 12th/16th when I read the bracket correctly.
Plays now against Scr7 (:ultpalutena:) who put MVD in Losers.

Greward plays now Oryon who is a partial :ultdoc: player.
E: And Oryon won.

E2: And Scr7 3-0 vs. Young Eevey, the Bowser Jr.
 
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SapphSabre777

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So a Kirby gets 33rd, a Plant 17th (who eliminated the Kirby, only one low tier survives lol), and a Junior at least 9th...at a high-A tier tournament, a European supermajor. While I know in the back of my head better characters have better chances (much better), seeing good results from the bottom of the cast is a refresher and inspiration. With Hero coming in soon (and a potential balance patch a la Joker), I can't help but feel we are at a state where all the characters in the game are one touch-up away from being so solid.
 
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So a Kirby gets 33rd, a Plant 17th (who eliminated the Kirby, only one low tier survives lol), and a Junior at least 9th...at a high-A tier tournament, a European supermajor. While I know in the back of my head better characters have better chances (much better), seeing good results from the bottom of the cast is a refresher and inspiration. With Hero coming in soon (and a potential balance patch a la Joker), I can't help but feel we are at a state where all the characters in the game are one touch-up away from being so solid.
Yeah Jesusichoq's run was quite impressive given how early he got upsetted. After beating the capable :ultsnake: and :ultdarksamus: players 2-0 to get out of pools yesterday, he went on to beat Wreck It Mundos' :ultwario: 3-1 (He was the 2nd best Wario in Europe in SSB4 and remains one of the stronger Netherlands players in Ultimate), beat Yass's :ultfox: 3-1 (France's best Fox and a strong EU Fox overall woh actually beat Jesusis at Ultimate Wanted 1 a while ago. I have to say between Supergirl Kels beating all the Foxes in her region and even out of region with Kirby and this runback, this is definitely looking to once again be one of Kirby's best top tier matchups), and Vitch's :ultmario: 3 -1 before going down to Greward's :ultpiranha: 1-3 to finish at a solid 33rd and just short of Top 32. (Who I must say has put on a stellar showing for similarly undervalued character. 17th and 3-2ing Elexio's :ultgreninja: is not small feat).

This probably :ultkirby:s strongest placing overall at a major in Ultimate so far and this surpasses any placing Jesuis got in SSB4 as far as I know. The improvement he's shown the past 6 months is quite impressive and look forward to seeing him improve further. Just a shame non of his run got to see the light of a stream but at least it'll get Kirby off to a good start on the OrionStats for the second half of the year. Definitely the kind of motivator his meta can use.
 
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Yeah Jesusichoq's run was quite impressive given how early he got upsetted. After beating the capable :ultsnake: and :ultdarksamus: players 2-0 to get out of pools yesterday, he went on to beat Wreck It Mundos' :ultwario: 3-1 (He was the 2nd best Wario in SSB4 and remains one of the stronger Netherlands players in Ultimate), beat Yass's :ultfox: 3-1 (France's best Fox and a strong EU Fox overall woh actually beat Jesusis at Ultimate Wanted 1 a while ago. I have to say between Supergirl Kels beating all the Foxes in her region and even out of region with Kirby and this runback, this is definitely looking to once again be one of Kirby's best top tier matchups), and Vitch's :ultmario: 3 -1 before going down to Greward's :ultpiranha: 1-3 to finish at a solid 33rd and just short of Top 32. (Who I must say has put on a stellar showing for similarly undervalued character. 17th and 3-2ing Elexio's :ultgreninja: is not small feat).

This probably :ultkirby:s strongest placing overall at a major in Ultimate so far and this surpasses any placing Jesuis got in SSB4 as far as I know. The improvement he's shown the past 6 months is quite impressive and look forward to seeing him improve further. Just a shame non of his run got to see the light of a stream but at least it'll get Kirby off to a good start on the OrionStats for the second half of the year. Definitely the kind of motivator his meta can use.
I guess not a good tournament for Zelda then?
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
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Apropos of nothing, i'm actually starting to think Robin is underrated

Not in a fanboy "he's really good, guys!!!" but more in "there is absolutely no way this character is bottom 10"

To the point where I think that Smash Ult Robin is better than Smash 4 Robin despite losing his kill confirm

Top tier trashes him, but he's surprisingly stable at mid to low levels of play. From my own experience anyway
 

Ziodyne 21

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So yeah the biggest notice is :ultbowserjr: being in top 8 at an A rank event do doubt. Its also been a good day for :ultness: who despite getting very strong resutls at locals due to the efforts of players like FOW and Awestin, has not really had a big breakthough at larger majors
 
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SwagGuy99

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
444
...A hell of a lot.

Here are some of the more common characters (5 or more occurences)

:ultbowser::ultbowser::ultbowser::ultbowser::ultbowser:
Bowser seems to be becoming a quite popular character. His Top Tier matchup spread isn't horrible (except :ultpikachu: but that is true for a lot of characters) and he isn't too hard to play so I'm guessing he'll remain popular for a while, especially as a counterpick.

Edit: Also, while I have yet to watch the games leading up to Top 8, Bowser Jr. has ended up in there. We'll see how this goes but I'm not totally convinced Bowser Jr. is a bottom ten character and maybe his proformance here will reinforce that opinion.
 
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Joined
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711
Bowser seems to be becoming a quite popular character. His Top Tier matchup spread isn't horrible (except :ultpikachu: but that is true for a lot of characters) and he isn't too hard to play so I'm guessing he'll remain popular for a while, especially as a counterpick.

Edit: Also, while I have yet to watch the games leading up to Top 8, Bowser Jr. has ended up in there. We'll see how this goes but I'm not totally convinced Bowser Jr. is a bottom ten character and maybe his proformance here will reinforce that opinion.
I've come around a few conversations suggesting Bowser is a potential high tier. I certainly believe he could be and, at the very least, I'm pretty confident that he's the best super heavy.

A lot of tier lists from pro players also suggest a very broad list of High Tiers - as in a vast amount of characters belong in it. At least for now, it looks to be true.
 
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I've come around a few conversations suggesting Bowser is a potential high tier. I certainly believe he could be and, at the very least, I'm pretty confident that he's the best super heavy.
It sounds much more plausible than in Smash 4, at least. Unlike Smash 4, Ultimate Bowser doesn't seem to have any really bad MUs vs top tiers, and while he does have significant flaws, he's much more well-rounded than in Smash 4. I could see him potentially being a top 25 character (so depending on where you draw the line for high tier he could be high tier).
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
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It sounds much more plausible than in Smash 4, at least. Unlike Smash 4, Ultimate Bowser doesn't seem to have any really bad MUs vs top tiers, and while he does have significant flaws, he's much more well-rounded than in Smash 4. I could see him potentially being a top 25 character (so depending on where you draw the line for high tier he could be high tier).

Pika and Palu are most likely his most troublesome MU's in top-tier. I think Snake might be as well?

Speaking of Palu SCR managed to beat Mr.R at Albion eliminating him at 5th , this is a pretty impressive showing for him
 
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