Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DelugeFGC]

I compete in locals and smaller regionals if time / gas / life allows, but it's mostly locals.

Also compete like this in Melee and SFV. Would like to take it higher someday, but who knows.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Its actually wild how Wario can straight up kill you from a single up tilt post 40%

It's like melee jigs up tilt > rest, except you can't DI it, the uptilt has a bigger hitbox and whiffing your waft won't leave you vulnerable

Who thought this was okay LOL

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) July 8, 2019

I kinda agree with him. Waft looks like it's getting nerfed soon. Albion was sponsored by Nintendo as well, so they had their eyes on Glutonny's showing especially.

 

[Game7a1]

Its actually wild how Wario can straight up kill you from a single up tilt post 40%

It's like melee jigs up tilt > rest, except you can't DI it, the uptilt has a bigger hitbox and whiffing your waft won't leave you vulnerable

Who thought this was okay LOL

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) July 8, 2019

I kinda agree with him. Waft looks like it's getting nerfed soon. Albion was sponsored by Nintendo as well, so they had their eyes on Glutonny's showing especially.

Part of me is okay with people not knowing/recognizing that Puff has something similar in the form of Up-Tilt or Up-Air into Rest considering she's in the lower half of the cast. That said, unlike Wario's hands, Puff's hand and foot are not the size of her ... body-head-thing.

I think the main "issue" Mr. R is talking about isn't so much Waft's power but how accessible it is to confirm into Waft. To continue the comparison, while Puff has a multitude of ways into confirming Rest, they're not as easy as Wario's Up-Tilt or Up-Air to Waft (is late N-air to Waft still a thing?) because they lack the safety and disjointedness (or speed in the case of Sing and reliability in the case of D-air) of Wario's moves. It does help Wario in that he has low landing lag on his Up-Air (7 frames), and Up-Tilt has at most 20 frames of endlag.

 

[Minordeth]

Yeah, it’s wild that Wario can kill at 40% off of a moderately safe, if short range, confirm... once or twice a game. And if he whiffs he loses that clutch power.

Meanwhile, in Chroy land, you can confirm stupid good, disjointed jab into RAR bair and kill less than 100% (or for Roy, 60%) as much as you want. Or jab Fsmash at lower percents. Or stupid, stupid safe Dtilt into a terrifying tech chase opportunity. As much as you want.

I love Chrom, but Ramin gotta remove that beam outta his Emblem Eye.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yeah, it’s wild that Wario can kill at 40% off of a moderately safe, if short range, confirm... once or twice a game. And if he whiffs he loses that clutch power.

Meanwhile, in Chroy land, you can confirm stupid good, disjointed jab into RAR bair and kill less than 100% (or for Roy, 60%) as much as you want. Or jab Fsmash at lower percents. Or stupid, stupid safe Dtilt into a terrifying tech chase opportunity. As much as you want.

I love Chrom, but Ramin gotta remove that beam outta his Emblem Eye.

The issue is, even if Wario whiffs waft and loses that clutch factor. He is far without effective ways to take your stcks . He has a reasonablly consisitent d-tilt into dash attack confirm that can kill around 100-110%, he can bair, an effective command grab that can kill near the edge, and if there are platforms can take you to like 0-60+ of a single confirms almost as conistently as Olimar or Peach. Plus he has amazing survivability and stall factor due to being a heavyweight with a relaitvley small hurtbox great recovery options. He is going to charge up that Waft twice a round in most cases

In Smash 4 Wario basically lived and died off his Waft and its confirms do to basically really having nothing else to kill effectively with. That issue was solved immenssly for him in Ultimiate.
Its just the Waft with how strong and somewhat easy to confirm into seems a bit excessive.

Speaking of Chroy. ZSS seems to have similar confirms as Marss did things like nair/zair to bair as a kill confirm many times thought his CEO matches. Zair into Boost Kick may also be possible .

 

[$.A.F.]

The issue is, even if Wario whiffs waft and loses that clutch factor. He is far without effective ways to take ypur . He has a reasonabally conssitent d-tilt into dash attack confirm that can kill around 100-110%, he can bair, an effective command grab that can kill near the edge, and if there are platforms can take you to like 0-60+ of a single confirms almost as conistently as Olimar or Peach. Plus he has amazing survivability and stall factor due to being a heavyweight with a relaitvley small hurtbox great recovery options. He is going to charge up that Waft twice a round in most cases

In Smash 4 Wario basically lived and died off his Waft and its confirms do to basically really having nothing else to kill effectively with. That issue was solved immensley for him in Ultimiate.
Its just the Waft with how strong and somewhat easy to confirm into seems a bit excessive

All of those confirms and move only kill at 100-110 at ledge and closer to 140 mid stage. That is not good kill power. His recovery is super inconsistent. He basically dies offstage without bike. He has hardly any answer to swords. He has poor range. Gets comboed easily, etc. He has very tangible and real weaknesses that hurt him too much to in the current state be Top 5 as a lot of characters have strengths just as polarizing without weaknesses as prevalent. And again he’s nowhere near dominating the meta game in the slightest.

 

[The_Bookworm]

We got some hot-spicy tech from GimR here. It is basically a big extension of his Falco up B video.

Most US players are probably not going to bother with it, until the random Japanese player starts wrecking people with this technique.

 

[Minordeth]

The issue is, even if Wario whiffs waft and loses that clutch factor. He is far without effective ways to take ypur . He has a reasonabally conssitent d-tilt into dash attack confirm that can kill around 100-110%, he can bair, an effective command grab that can kill near the edge, and if there are platforms can take you to like 0-60+ of a single confirms almost as conistently as Olimar or Peach. Plus he has amazing survivability and stall factor due to being a heavyweight with a relaitvley small hurtbox great recovery options. He is going to charge up that Waft twice a round in most cases

In Smash 4 Wario basically lived and died off his Waft and its confirms do to basically really having nothing else to kill effectively with. That issue was solved immensley for him in Ultimiate.
Its just the Waft with how strong and somewhat easy to confirm into seems a bit excessive.

Speaking of Chroy. ZSS seems to have similar confirms as Marss did things like nair/zair to bair as a kill confirm many times thought his CEO matches. Zair into Boost Kick may also be possible .

I mean, don’t get me wrong. Wario is mad good. I’m not making a case against him here. I’m just pointing out that Ramin riding that “Man, this character won a major, look at all their dumb ****” wave.

Meanwhile, he mains a character with both top 5 aerial buttons, and top 3 ground buttons.

In a different universe, where Mr. R was hitting his jab>RAR confirms and took Albion, he’d be defending himself against “Look how broke Chrom is” Twitter fiends.

All the top tiers, high tiers, and yeah, the mids, got some grime in them. It’s just Wario’s turn to get his highlighted, I guess.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I mean, don’t get me wrong. Wario is mad good. I’m not making a case against him here. I’m just pointing out that Ramin riding that “Man, this character won a major, look at all their dumb ****” wave.

Meanwhile, he mains a character with both top 5 aerial buttons, and top 3 ground buttons.

Mr.R did make this tweet later.

My Wario tweet actually got so many people tight LOL wth. God forbid I criticize a move of a character that isn't viewed as top tier by the general public

FYI I think a lot of characters have stupid stuff, like Snake nikita for example, a character I play myself 😶

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) July 8, 2019

He apparently gave people a little bit of the wrong idea, but that happens sometimes. There are a lot of dumb moves in this game (how has R.O.B.'s side B avoided any nerfs since its potential was discovered month 1 is beyond me).

In a different universe, where Mr. R was hitting his jab>RAR confirms and took Albion, he’d be defending himself against “Look how broke Chrom is” Twitter fiends.

The funny thing about that point is that Mr.R did tweet this soon after the tournament is over.

Also I can't hit jab rar bair in tournament for the life of me. I'm so consistent at it in friendlies too 😅 really gotta stop flopping those cause its huge

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) July 7, 2019

I too also have difficulties consistently getting jab>RAR bair when I play Chrom myself. Unlike Mr.R though, I don't know how to attack cancel, so I guess I have some work to do.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Mr R was saying Wario was overrated not too long ago. I guess getting bodied by Tweek and Zackray and then seeing Gluto take his place as the best European smasher made him change his tune.

 

[PK Gaming]

So if I’m getting this right: Top players regarding characters they rarely if ever have to face know significantly more than literal mains of the character because reasons and that literal character enthusiasts significantly lack knowledge on their character. This isn’t me trying to even straw man you, you actually just said/implied this. Wow.

Except you are, literally, strawmanning my post by turning my statement into an absolute. Nowhere did I say in no uncertain terms that top players will always know significantly more than non-competitors. All I said was in my experience, people who main the character aren't always well informed on their character. That shouldn't be remotely controversial, given the large volume of people who main characters casually (i'm including myself here).

I don't see those people, on average, being a magical solution to informing top players. Especially since the way to do so is... completely unfeasible? And their grievances aren't even guaranteed?

This isn’t an edge case. Multiple cases of characters having blatant misinformation about them like ZeRo with Dedede or Esam again with Robin etc. consistently appear on tier lists. If you want more ask if/when you respond. It’s not hard to find more examples to give.

Is that so? Then why not find an amalgamation of all top player "misinformation" instead of repeatedly bringing up the same top players to argue your point. Because you're using edge cases (ZeRo and eSAM) to justify your assertion that top players need to be educated on certain characters.

Okay no. You really said it. Top players being educated about characters is insulting. Not to mention you just said and I quote: “people shouldn’t be educated before giving out opinions” top players shouldn’t actually be given access to information prior to making a tier list.

No, I really didn't. I said disrespectful, not insulting. And you don't seem to understand how charged of a term "education" is. Teachers educate their students. Parents educate their children. Education by definition:

give intellectual, moral, and social instruction to (someone, especially a child), typically at a school or university.

Which I think is both unnecessary and uncalled for. You never even addressed the logistics of "educating" top players either. Do you intend to DM them on twitter or discord? To let them know that they are in fact, wrong about X character (even though that "education" is complete unsolicited?" No really, i'm genuinely curious how you even planned on implementing your suggestion. There's a world of difference between informing someone you personally know (or when they ask for it) and educating to them that their opinion is wrong.

These tier lists are used by the community to actually find out where characters stand and you think it’s insulting if we give them any information to make it more accurate. I....think I’m done with Smashboards for the night. Disrespectful to tell players how characters work before making a literal tier list.

Virtually every tier list video from a top player is their snapshot of metagame in video form, literally preceded by a "this is just my opinion" and you think its 100% for the benefit of the community that needs to be right? What are you even on?

Except educated opinions are still far more valuable then uneducated ones, or worse yet, misinformed ones. It's true a lot of loyalists are biased fanboys who overrated their characters, but one who studies their characters and knows their ins and outs may still know something a top player may not.

Well no disagreements here. I never ruled out the possibility of non-competitors having opinions that are more accurate than top players, (and we've seen countless great posts from those kinds of people in this thread alone) but from my own experience, there are a sizeable a lot of players too emotionally invested in their character to give a fair, unbiased take. Especially if they don't have offline experience. So the assertion that "we should educate top players on their tier lists" doesn't sit right with me. There's no guarantee the people doing the educating are even completely in the right either, and it's not feasible. I don't think you could get away with making a post calling out "X" top players tier list on smashboards as well.

Top players can place characters on their lists where they want to but I don't think it's wrong to want them to get their facts strait.

I don't think so either, but there's a significant difference between "it would be cool if eSAM didn't undervalue Doc" and "we should educate him just so he can get his tier list (which is ultimately his opinion) right. Again, it's not very feasible either.

 

[Rizen]

Mr R was saying Wario was overrated not too long ago. I guess getting bodied by Tweek and Zackray and then seeing Gluto take his place as the best European smasher made him change his tune.

I joined the Wario's top tier club too. His weaknesses can be worked around with his mobility. Waft is really powerful after even a minute of charge; he might as well have Limit CS. Wario's also tanky as heck. He's better than high tiers like YL and Ike.

It's cool Mr.R might practice YL (that could have been a joke though).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of characters being called out at Top-tier on Twitter. Its amazing how so many notabale pro players now calling ZSS like a top 10 character with some saying they always thought she was that strong. Just becuase Marss is doing very well with her.

Quite a differing tune from the beginning of the meta where everyone was saying. Opps no more d-throw death ladder combos..mid-tier!

Then again its a similar story with Joker. When he was released general opinion was...umm be high tier maybe. Then MKLeo picks up Joker and soon begins dominating in majors, now he is a Top 3 character.

 

[DelugeFGC]

For me, my initial impressions of Joker were more on the fact you cannot simply pick up Joker and make magic happen with him like some other top tiers. He has a pretty fluid combo game you need to learn to output decent % without Arsene, then you need to get good at managing Arsene too. The character is strong with stray hits, yes, but where he truly shines is his confirms. DAir > USmash, FAir1 > USmash, FAir 1 > DAir at the ledge, FAir 1 > FAir 1 > FSmash.. Joker has a number of ways to assure you die if he lands certain moves at certain % ranges.

He partly reminds me of Falcon, in that his combo trees aren't entirely easy. Some of them like his basic throw combos, yes, but his AC BAir stuff on top of spacing and timing FAir 1 properly when you need to use it? That stuff ain't free. Also nobody was using his grappling hook offensively outside of Twitter combos and his gameplan just wasn't really figured out yet.

I grew to think Joker is top tier based off of my own improvement and development with him, Leo had nothing to do with that journey.. though he is certainly good validation.

 

[$.A.F.]

Except you are, literally, strawmanning my post by turning my statement into an absolute. Nowhere did I say in no uncertain terms that top players will always know significantly more than non-competitors. All I said was in my experience, people who main the character aren't always well informed on their character. That shouldn't be remotely controversial, given the large volume of people who main characters casually (i'm including myself here).

I don't see those people, on average, being a magical solution to informing top players. Especially since the way to do so is... completely unfeasible? And their grievances aren't even guaranteed?



Is that so? Then why not find an amalgamation of all top player "misinformation" instead of repeatedly bringing up the same top players to argue your point. Because you're using edge cases (ZeRo and eSAM) to justify your assertion that top players need to be educated on certain characters.



No, I really didn't. I said disrespectful, not insulting. And you don't seem to understand how charged of a term "education" is. Teachers educate their students. Parents educate their children. Education by definition:



Which I think is both unnecessary and uncalled for. You never even addressed the logistics of "educating" top players either. Do you intend to DM them on twitter or discord? To let them know that they are in fact, wrong about X character (even though that "education" is complete unsolicited?" No really, i'm genuinely curious how you even planned on implementing your suggestion. There's a world of difference between informing someone you personally know (or when they ask for it) and educating to them that their opinion is wrong.



Virtually every tier list video from a top player is their snapshot of metagame in video form, literally preceded by a "this is just my opinion" and you think its 100% for the benefit of the community that needs to be right? What are you even on?



Well no disagreements here. I never ruled out the possibility of non-competitors having opinions that are more accurate than top players, (and we've seen countless great posts from those kinds of people in this thread alone) but from my own experience, there are a sizeable a lot of players too emotionally invested in their character to give a fair, unbiased take. Especially if they don't have offline experience. So the assertion that "we should educate top players on their tier lists" doesn't sit right with me. There's no guarantee the people doing the educating are even completely in the right either, and it's not feasible. I don't think you could get away with making a post calling out "X" top players tier list on smashboards as well.



I don't think so either, but there's a significant difference between "it would be cool if eSAM didn't undervalue Doc" and "we should educate him just so he can get his tier list (which is ultimately his opinion) right. Again, it's not very feasible either.

You specified character enthusiasts and loyalists not casual mains. Also you said often which is regularly. Never non competitors. That was never even mentioned by you and neither were casuals. CHARACTER ENTHUSIASTS who frequent this board. And it wasn’t maybe or sometimes it was often. That does come as a surprise. Again that’s not casual mains at all. Those people who put a lot of time into the character like you said ON AVERAGE will have more character knowledge than somebody who doesn’t even play the character or against them.

I didn’t want to because going through every tier list and explanation is time consuming. But since you asked here are some more.
-VoiD and 3.0.0 Falcon. Placed him bottom 5 without any explanation other than Fatality isn’t doing as well as Smash 4, people aren’t Falcon dittoing enough and that he doesn’t really believe in the character. Keep in mind Fatality and NickC doing well at the time and actually getting results if not being AS good as Sm4sh. He doesn’t cover his ridiculous punish game, speed, kill power, combo potential, etc. whatsoever, just arbitrary things that don’t actually determine the character’s viability. He literally brought up Ganondorf being better IN CASUALS as a point.
-He calls Ridley’s recovery terrible. Ridley actually does have a pretty serviceable recovery with multiple jumps, a hard to challenge if linear up b, a suicide command grab that he can gimp you with (he can escape the suicide part while gimping you in the process) and doesn’t put you into free fall if missed. And apparently he can’t fight zoners with his safe on shield aerials and tilts, great run speed, command grab, and multiple jumps. Not to mention he ignores Ridley’s great results or at least far better than bottom 5 that he seemed to be so picky about with Falcon to justify putting him so low. Meanwhile Ganondorf struggles far more than Ridley in every area disregarding kill power and survivability. Ridley has arguably better smash attacks with a down smash that acts as a spot dodge and covers roll, a much faster up smash with a worse hitbox and a really fast f smash that kills at the same percentages, two frames, etc. even if it has worse range. Especially with recovering, neutral, dealing with Zoners, advantage and any issues that Ridley apparently struggles with. And yet he’s far ahead on the tier list by a significant margin.
-Mew2King’s Tier list in general had flimsy 20 second explanations for everyone in low tier offering bad explanations for controversial placements such as Cloud being below Bayonetta.
-Leffen honestly didn’t offer explanations at all for half of his cast placements. They were put in a tier named IDGAF and offered a broad explanation that lasted a minute without even touching literally half the cast.
-Again, compiling all of these would take a very long time with proper explanation for each. So I’m going to stop for now.

Literally the same thing.
Yes, another one is an enlightening experience. Enlightening someone about a character for example. This is in fact what’s happening. I’m sorry for using such an insulting term as education, should I use “consensual learning” instead to avoid being offensive?

Information is unbiased. Education is fact not opinion. Bias can impact opinions on viability but never actual information. Results and character attributes are abject facts. That’s information. You can’t really be influenced by character bias. At worst you attempt to downplay weaknesses. And anyways WiFi warriors aren’t usually character enthusiasts anyways. Or at least aren’t frequenters of this boar from my knowledge. Many people here have access to locals not very far away. Working on the method, but my base idea is a discord with a voted on rep for each obscure character. Have top players get a link shot to them and they can just ask questions that they have about the character or each rep can put out a list of misconceptions and clear them up, especially ones commonly seen in tier lists from players since they listen to each other a lot on this.

They literally tell the community what their thoughts are and back them up with evidence. Evidence which I’ve discussed isn’t true a lot of the time. Having opinions is one thing, putting out objectively incorrect statements as “evidence” another. What are YOU even on. You literally have advised against telling people their incorrect or pre emptively clearing up misconceptions. Both are apparently disrespectful to you. Literally letting people who are supposed to be reputable are allowed to spread misinformation throughout the community. An opinion isn’t an opinion if it can be disproven. That’s just incorrect not subjective.

 

[Krysco]

I would compete at weeklies if it were more convenient for me. I just checked smash.gg and Ottawa appears to be the only city that has a Smash scene that's not 3 hours or more away from me. The closest tournament coming is Grand Capital Smash #16 on July 14th and it costs $54 just to take a train to Ottawa and back on that day (I can't drive yet) plus whatever the fee would be for a cab to the venue and then fee for admission and then another cab fare back to the train station. Then you factor in my work schedule where I'm doing alternating 12 hour day and night shifts. I'm not sure if the tournament I mentioned is a weekly or not but to show how inconvenient my work schedule is, I'll use it as an example. I work every other Sunday, one being days and the other being nights so I wouldn't be able to go then. I also work every other Monday days and nights on the weeks where I don't work on the Sundays so depending how late the tournament goes for, I could possibly not even be able to attend if I work a Monday day shift due to how early the last train leaves. That would give me a grand total of one tournament per month at a really expensive price with a bunch of people I wouldn't know and I'd most likely drown in pools due to inexperience. Yeah, no thanks.

I've also completely given up on bothering with online. It was terrible in Smash 4 and it honestly feels even worse in Ultimate plus there's the anxiety I face when playing someone online (I've never had anxiety issues playing in person). It can also lead to bad habits due to the differences between online and offline.

There was a time during Smash 4 when my buddy and I were debating trying to start a Smash scene in our own city but neither of us have many friends here and only one other that plays Smash. We also have no experience on how to start such a thing. That was back then though. We've both lost the drive to even bother at this point. Might get the opportunity to compete sometime next year since I'll likely be moving.

TL;DR I would compete in Smash but I'd rather not spend close to $100 just to compete once a month.

 

[PK Gaming]

You specified character enthusiasts and loyalists not casual mains. Also you said often which is regularly. Never non competitors. That was never even mentioned by you and neither were casuals. CHARACTER ENTHUSIASTS who frequent this board. And it wasn’t maybe or sometimes it was often. That does come as a surprise. Again that’s not casual mains at all. Those people who put a lot of time into the character like you said ON AVERAGE will have more character knowledge than somebody who doesn’t even play the character or against them.

You need to relax before you burst a blood vessel. This is a discussion forum, not a trial. I made my main point pretty clear in my first response:

What makes any of us inherently more suited towards making a tier list than a top player? Because they get things wrong? I hate to break it to you, but I guarantee you that every single person regularly participating in this thread has and will continue to get things wrong about this game. Tier lists are supposed to foster discussion, not stand as this immutable list wherein everything is 100% correct. So what if ZeRo's got Game & Watch wrong. The response to that isn't "someone needs to educate him right away", it should "I see how he came to this conclusion, but I disagree."

If you want to get caught up in the semantics of what I said just to score internet points, then by all means, but it's not useful for a serious discussion.

I didn’t want to because going through every tier list and explanation is time consuming. But since you asked here are some more.
-VoiD and 3.0.0 Falcon. Placed him bottom 5 without any explanation other than Fatality isn’t doing as well as Smash 4, people aren’t Falcon dittoing enough and that he doesn’t really believe in the character. Keep in mind Fatality and NickC doing well at the time and actually getting results if not being AS good as Sm4sh. He doesn’t cover his ridiculous punish game, speed, kill power, combo potential, etc. whatsoever, just arbitrary things that don’t actually determine the character’s viability. He literally brought up Ganondorf being better IN CASUALS as a point.
-He calls Ridley’s recovery terrible. Ridley actually does have a pretty serviceable recovery with multiple jumps, a hard to challenge if linear up b, a suicide command grab that he can gimp you with (he can escape the suicide part while gimping you in the process) and doesn’t put you into free fall if missed. And apparently he can’t fight zoners with his safe on shield aerials and tilts, great run speed, command grab, and multiple jumps. Not to mention he ignores Ridley’s great results or at least far better than bottom 5 that he seemed to be so picky about with Falcon to justify putting him so low. Meanwhile Ganondorf struggles far more than Ridley in every area disregarding kill power and survivability. Ridley has arguably better smash attacks with a down smash that acts as a spot dodge and covers roll, a much faster up smash with a worse hitbox and a really fast f smash that kills at the same percentages, two frames, etc. even if it has worse range. Especially with recovering, neutral, dealing with Zoners, advantage and any issues that Ridley apparently struggles with. And yet he’s far ahead on the tier list by a significant margin.
-Mew2King’s Tier list in general had flimsy 20 second explanations for everyone in low tier offering bad explanations for controversial placements such as Cloud being below Bayonetta.
-Leffen honestly didn’t offer explanations at all for half of his cast placements. They were put in a tier named IDGAF and offered a broad explanation that lasted a minute without even touching literally half the cast.
-Again, compiling all of these would take a very long time with proper explanation for each. So I’m going to stop for now.

This is... obsessive. It reads less like a genuine critique and more like you have grievances with how a person conveys information. None of what you're saying is objectively true either; there's nothing wrong with saying Ridley's recovery is terrible, due to his large size, his recovery's linearity and the ease of intercepting. You actually think calling out Ridley's recovery for being problematic is terrible? Really?

I don't really understand the tangent into obsessively comparing Ridley to Ganondorf either since it's completely unrelated, but it does play into what I was saying earlier; even if you're knowledgeable about a certain character that doesn't preclude you from being impartial. Trying to make an argument in favor of a character's viability by bringing another character down has never been a compelling argument.

I'lI agree that you have a point about top players getting things wrong from time to time. But this is an unnecessarily aggressive and passive-aggressive reaction to that. Personally, i'm willing to cut them some slack given the game's absurdly large roster, and I don't think top players need to consult every obscure character specialist before putting what is (very clearly) their opinion on the metagame. Misinformation is a problem, sure, but you're making it sound like it's an insidious thing rather than just someone expressing their thoughts on the metagame.

Literally the same thing. View attachment 230573View attachment 230573

Didn't expect you to bust out the thesaurus on me on me. I think it's possible to be disrespectful through indirect actions whereas insulting someone is a very direct thing, but sure, i'll concede that being disrespectful and insulting are "technically" the same thing if you want the win so badly.

Yes, another one is an enlightening experience. Enlightening someone about a character for example. This is in fact what’s happening. I’m sorry for using such an insulting term as education, should I use “consensual learning” instead to avoid being offensive?

Yeah, you're definitely taking this discussion too seriously. I get having a chip on your shoulder, but wow, I don't think this level of condescension is remotely warranted. Nor do I think your previous post was enlightening. Saying "But Ridley's recovery is good, actually" and "Ganondorf struggles more than Ridley in every area but killer power & survivability" are pretty surface level responses (which as an aside, Ridley is blatantly better at surviving than Ganondorf... dunno what that was about).

Information is unbiased. Education is fact not opinion. Bias can impact opinions on viability but never actual information. Results and character attributes are abject facts. That’s information. You can’t really be influenced by character bias. At worst you attempt to downplay weaknesses. And anyways WiFi warriors aren’t usually character enthusiasts anyways. Or at least aren’t frequenters of this boar from my knowledge. Many people here have access to locals not very far away. Working on the method, but my base idea is a discord with a voted on rep for each obscure character. Have top players get a link shot to them and they can just ask questions that they have about the character or each rep can put out a list of misconceptions and clear them up, especially ones commonly seen in tier lists from players since they listen to each other a lot on this.

Education is not a concrete thing and can change depending on the context, which in this case is absolutely opinion based. I can't believe you're trying to pull the objectives card for Smash Bros, a fighting game. There are too many variables and permutations to make an objective statement about any character or aspect of the game. No matter how self-evident, any claim made about any character is an opinion. I don't even want to entertain the idea that character bias isn't a thing when it's so blatantly overt (and something I personally experienced multiple times through my life) pretty much everywhere you go.

I can't say i'm impressed but your "solution" either. People have lives and responsibilities, and smash is something they do for fun or sport. They're not going to waste listening to the person who was "democratically elected to be X character" representative in the hopes of making their video tier lists more accurate. Ultimately, I think you're taking video tier lists way, way, way too seriously.

They literally tell the community what their thoughts are and back them up with evidence. Evidence which I’ve discussed isn’t true a lot of the time. Having opinions is one thing, putting out objectively incorrect statements as “evidence” another. What are YOU even on. You literally have advised against telling people their incorrect or pre emptively clearing up misconceptions. Both are apparently disrespectful to you. Literally letting people who are supposed to be reputable are allowed to spread misinformation throughout the community. An opinion isn’t an opinion if it can be disproven. That’s just incorrect not subjective.

You can do what want, I just don't think "educating top players" is feasible, and i'll never budge on that opinion. But you might need to take a step back from Smash Bros if you genuinely believe in the bolded. I don't really know how to convey to you the fact that top players are allowed to just, say what's on their mind, instead of getting the 3rd degree from someone who disagrees. These videos are expressions of person's values, not vital contributions to the smash community. I can't even fathom watching say an eSAM tier list and thinking he's "spreading misinformation throughout the community" like he's some virus and people are sheep.

I'll end it on this; top players can be wrong, and if you want to let them know they're wrong (should you be in the position to do so) that's fine, but your perspective isn't healthy.

 

[Rizen]

Food for thought: if you included Roy and Chrom's scores together they'd be 605.75 or #5 on Orion Stats. I think Roy and Chrom are different enough to be treated as separate characters but that doesn't mean they aren't dividing the player base between them. Maybe we're sleeping on them a bit.

 

[$.A.F.]

Food for thought: if you included Roy and Chrom's scores together they'd be 605.75 or #5 on Orion Stats. I think Roy and Chrom are different enough to be treated as separate characters but that doesn't mean they aren't dividing the player base between them. Maybe we're sleeping on them a bit.

Definitely. Like we discussed earlier jab Bair is dumb. Great speed range and kill power. They’d be in my opinion top 2 or close with dolphin slash. They have so much good that isn’t really talked about, probably because Mr. R isn’t doing as well lately and Tweek took a break so our only top level Chrom for a little was Shoyo who i also haven’t seen in a minute. Th(ese/is) character(s) are/is crazy

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, it’s wild that Wario can kill at 40% off of a moderately safe, if short range, confirm... once or twice a game. And if he whiffs he loses that clutch power.

Meanwhile, in Chroy land, you can confirm stupid good, disjointed jab into RAR bair and kill less than 100% (or for Roy, 60%) as much as you want. Or jab Fsmash at lower percents. Or stupid, stupid safe Dtilt into a terrifying tech chase opportunity. As much as you want.

I love Chrom, but Ramin gotta remove that beam outta his Emblem Eye.

Whoa, that's no comparison

Wario is a good char that also has a bonkers comeback tool that confirms out of like, half his moveset, from wherever you are onstage. Chrom/Roy's jab doesn't remotely compare to this, except at ledge.

Hell, even Waft without a full charge confirms out of OTHER moves.

Chrom and Roy are very good characters, with powerful kill options. None of what they have is comparable to Waft, which flows effortlessly from Wario's neutral and combo tree.

Dtilt and jab are grounded pokes, most powerful in certain situations. Wario just kinds swoops in and oh - Waft.

 

[Y2Kay]

Quick question:

Who competes at least semi-regularly here?

I compete on a regular basis at NYC locals, mostly just at Xeno. Ive been to Jersey a few times for regionals like Suplex City. I’ve actually played |RK| in bracket before now that I think about it lol.

 

[blackghost]

this was a great breakthrough for wario. This event showed what he can do when a player buts all the tools together: the mobility, the confirms, the waft, and solid offstage game. Do i think he's in the high end of high tier? no. but wario is a character that despite his flaws a skilled player can overcome them. he's in the same category as characters like ken, greninja, pokemon trainer, dhd, and ness for me. flawed characters that are capable of winning large events.

 

[NairWizard]

You need to relax before you burst a blood vessel. This is a discussion forum, not a trial.

If you want to get caught up in the semantics of what I said just to score internet points, then by all means, but it's not useful for a serious discussion.

This is... obsessive. It reads less like a genuine critique and more like you have grievances with how a person conveys information.

Didn't expect you to bust out the thesaurus on me on me.

if you want the win so badly.

Yeah, you're definitely taking this discussion too seriously. I get having a chip on your shoulder, but wow, I don't think this level of condescension is remotely warranted.

I can't say i'm impressed but your "solution" either.

Dude. You're arguing with a 14-year-old on the Internet and making it sound like he just singlehandedly illegalized abortion at a global scale. Chill. Debates should be about achieving mutual knowledge, not going out of your way to ridicule another person.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

this was a great breakthrough for wario. This event showed what he can do when a player buts all the tools together: the mobility, the confirms, the waft, and solid offstage game. Do i think he's in the high end of high tier? no. but wario is a character that despite his flaws a skilled player can overcome them. he's in the same category as characters like ken, greninja, pokemon trainer, dhd, and ness for me. flawed characters that are capable of winning large events.

Okay. I am still trying to find an actual legit explaination on what these huge, damning flaws are that will apparently forever gatekeepeep Wario from being top-tier.

Is it his lack of range, that he stuggles vs swords?. Matchup footage shows that he can overcome those issues pretty easily due to his great mobility and movement. His recovery is inconsistent without his bike? Well most top-wario mains are smart enough to manage usage and placement of the bike so they can keep it for recovery most of the time. Smart usage of recoveries combined with the other attributes of a character is essential and can make subjectivley change the "tier" of them. I mean being the smartes you can be Chroms recovery makes all the difference between it being meme-level and actually very workable and "good enough" for the Chrom user.

I dunno its kinda irks me that there a l large group that can say Shulk is top-tier becasue of "potential" Meanwhile Wario actually has both the theory and results to easily be considered for that

 

[Rizen]

I've played vs and he's one of the harder characters to wall out. Wario has an amazing air game and is only about mid sized. He's much smaller than his weight would suggest. Furthermore once he gets in he can stay on you and deal good damage. At least in this MU Wario works around swords fine.

 

[Minordeth]

Whoa, that's no comparison

Wario is a good char that also has a bonkers comeback tool that confirms out of like, half his moveset, from wherever you are onstage. Chrom/Roy's jab doesn't remotely compare to this, except at ledge.

Hell, even Waft without a full charge confirms out of OTHER moves.

Chrom and Roy are very good characters, with powerful kill options. None of what they have is comparable to Waft, which flows effortlessly from Wario's neutral and combo tree.

Dtilt and jab are grounded pokes, most powerful in certain situations. Wario just kinds swoops in and oh - Waft.

I mean, I think my two posts on this read as only partially serious. I was poking some fun at the reactionary stuff that occurs after every super major. Obviously directly comparing a comeback mechanic with two normals is going to fall apart if you examine it closely.

To actually contribute something more substantial, Waft does flow from Wario’s neutral, where it is subject to the same shortcomings of all his neutral tools. Which leads me to this:

I am still trying to find an actual on what these apparent big flaws are that keep Wario from being top-tier.

Is it his lack of range, that he stuggles vs swords?. Matchup footage shows that he can overcome those issues pretty easily due to his great mobility and movement. His recovery is inconsistent without his bike? Well most top-wario mains are smart enough to manage usage and placement of the bike so they can keep it for recovery most of the time. Smart usage of recoveries combined with the other attributes of a character is essential and can make subjectivley change the "tier" of them. I mean making the most od Chroms recovery makes all the difference between it being meme-level and actually very workable and "good enough" for the Chrom user.

I dunno its kinda irks me that so many people can consider Shulk top-tier becasue of "potential" Meanwhile Wario actullay has both the theory and results to easily be considered for that

I don’t have a problem with Wario being top tier. All the top tiers have some sort of drawback(s) in this game, and Wario would certainly fit.

But! Glutonny overcomes Wario’s shortcomings like any top player would with their character.

Wario’s hitboxes and range, combined with a lack of projectile option, ensures that he needs to approach. Unless he has a lead. Which he has the tools to do, given his punishes can be so devastating.

However, watch Marsss rematch with Gluto at MSM (or was it WNF?). At Genesis 6, Marsss brought out his ZSS for the first time, and it showed. For the run back, Marsss exploited something that Wario has trouble dealing with:

Wario struggles against characters that can swoop in and keep him out. Quik’s ZSS has managed to take out Gluto as well, through a combination of walling, superior evasion, and punishing his approaches.

If Wario can’t get a lead, he has to cover his approaches hard. Usually, top Wario’s use bike set-ups to do so, although a character like ZSS can essentially bypass that effort.

I don’t think Wario can bypass his lack of range “easily.” Nairo’s Palu has 3-0’d Glutonny before, and even a slightly less skilled player like Quik and his ZSS have beaten him as well.

Gluto makes it look effortless to circumvent Wario’s issues, which is to be expected. It doesn’t mean it actually is effortless, though. A lack of range is a lack of range, and the need to approach is always going to be a condition, and an issue, in match-ups that can force it.

 

[Rizen]

When including in top tier it's important to note that the power level of top tier is lower than before the 2 waves of nerfs. Wario, like Palutena is in a good spot to creep up by evading nerfs.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I mean, I think my two posts on this read as only partially serious. I was poking some fun at the reactionary stuff that occurs after every super major. Obviously directly comparing a comeback mechanic with two normals is going to fall apart if you examine it closely.

To actually contribute something more substantial, Waft does flow from Wario’s neutral, where it is subject to the same shortcomings of all his neutral tools. Which leads me to this:



I don’t have a problem with Wario being top tier. All the top tiers have some sort of drawback(s) in this game, and Wario would certainly fit.

But! Glutonny overcomes Wario’s shortcomings like any top player would with their character.

Wario’s hitboxes and range, combined with a lack of projectile option, ensures that he needs to approach. Unless he has a lead. Which he has the tools to do, given his punishes can be so devastating.

However, watch Marsss rematch with Gluto at MSM (or was it WNF?). At Genesis 6, Marsss brought out his ZSS for the first time, and it showed. For the run back, Marsss exploited something that Wario has trouble dealing with:

Wario struggles against characters that can swoop in and keep him out. Quik’s ZSS has managed to take out Gluto as well, through a combination of walling, superior evasion, and punishing his approaches.

If Wario can’t get a lead, he has to cover his approaches hard. Usually, top Wario’s use bike set-ups to do so, although a character like ZSS can essentially bypass that effort.

I don’t think Wario can bypass his lack of range “easily.” Nairo’s Palu has 3-0’d Glutonny before, and even a slightly less skilled player like Quik and his ZSS have beaten him as well.

Gluto makes it look effortless to circumvent Wario’s issues, which is to be expected. It doesn’t mean it actually is effortless, though. A lack of range is a lack of range, and the need to approach is always going to be a condition, and an issue, in match-ups that can force it.

Ok i will give you that and seem to somewhat difficult for Wario due to the reasons you mentioned. In Palu's case is that her airiels and other tools can beat out the ways Wario wants to approach and she can also be pretty slippy with teleport canceling.
That is why Tweek uses his now whenever he plays Marss. Wario did benefit a lot from the Olimar nerfs in 3.1.0 since that MU is a bit less of a struggle for him now.

Still the insane comeback factor Wario has can make those and any possible losing MU where he stuggles very winnable. a la Smash 4 ZSS

 

[Lacrimosa]

Food for thought: if you included Roy and Chrom's scores together they'd be 605.75 or #5 on Orion Stats. I think Roy and Chrom are different enough to be treated as separate characters but that doesn't mean they aren't dividing the player base between them. Maybe we're sleeping on them a bit.

Always said this:
Insane ground AND air speed, sizeable disjoint (doesn't matter if it's not the biggest since the others with bigger disjoint have worse framedata afaik but I could be wrong), literally zero lag on all aerials and a disgusting kill confirm with Jab into bAir, a better(?) working Dancing Blade than Marcina that also kills at around 80% on the ledge.
Yes, I may play the character that has the worst MU against them, but also their disadvantage state isn't that bad, although an off-stage Chrom MUST be a dead Chrom. Roy has better ways to fight back.

Definitive top tier and I wonder if Tweek will keep him alongside PT.

 

[PK Gaming]

Dude. You're arguing with a 14-year-old on the Internet and making it sound like he just singlehandedly illegalized abortion at a global scale. Chill. Debates should be about achieving mutual knowledge, not going out of your way to ridicule another person.

I'm all for a civil debate when the situation calls for it, but you could barely call our back and forth a debate, especially when the argument broke down and I was subjected to old classics like "I can't even tonight, i'm going to bed."

Like yeah, I got into it with a 14 year old... I got into heated arguments with older people all of the time when I was 14 year myself, lmao. Something you should be aware of given our shared history. So forgive me for not rolling over to bad faith statements and condescending statements.

Not that I'm inclined to believe your calls for "civility" anyway, given how you made your post after my argument with $.A.F was very much over and done with. Pretty cheap of you to tell me to "chill" in a post that was deliberately designed to drag me.

 

[Rizen]

Always said this:
Insane ground AND air speed, sizeable disjoint (doesn't matter if it's not the biggest since the others with bigger disjoint have worse framedata afaik but I could be wrong), literally zero lag on all aerials and a disgusting kill confirm with Jab into bAir, a better(?) working Dancing Blade than Marcina that also kills at around 80% on the ledge.
Yes, I may play the character that has the worst MU against them, but also their disadvantage state isn't that bad, although an off-stage Chrom MUST be a dead Chrom. Roy has better ways to fight back.

Definitive top tier and I wonder if Tweek will keep him alongside PT.

Tweek played Ridley for a tournament. Who knows what Tweek will do. The only sure thing is he always falls back on Wario.

 

[Thinkaman]

Stop arguing about arguing. We have a children's video game to discuss.

In case no one else posted, the (only) 10 characters missing from the top 128 of Albion as listed:

On this subject, I'm just going to repeat my previous observation that the "bottom tier" of results seems to be based more on social factors and substitution effects than raw mechanical basis.

Still waiting on the Boulevard Busters to go from winning tweets to winning tourneys. Are we just unanimously in agreement that they are very good and we don't want to play them?

Also we should probably comment on 's abundance at Albion.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Stop arguing about arguing. We have a children's video game to discuss.

In case no one else posted, the (only) 10 characters missing from the top 128 of Albion as listed:

On this subject, I'm just going to repeat my previous observation that the "bottom tier" of results seems to be based more on social factors and substitution effects than raw mechanical basis.

Still waiting on the Boulevard Busters to go from winning tweets to winning tourneys. Are we just unanimously in agreement that they are very good and we don't want to play them?

Also we should probably comment on 's abundance at Albion.

I am not going to make any friends with this one. But Greninja is kinda like a lesser case of Shulk. Where we see just about everyone say he is top-tier becasue the tools he has look amazing on paper, and potentially can be in practice..but for some reason it does not seem to work out for him. A combination of also being a very technical character..and while having some undoubtedly great players maining him, lacks like very top-level player rep. (MKLeo and Dabuz tried him out a bit in the past, but obviously did not stick with him)

THIS BEING SAID unlike Shulk , Gren has been getting some good results, and I unlike Shulk I do beleive he has potential to break into top-tier at some point

 

[bc1910]

Stop arguing about arguing. We have a children's video game to discuss.

In case no one else posted, the (only) 10 characters missing from the top 128 of Albion as listed:

On this subject, I'm just going to repeat my previous observation that the "bottom tier" of results seems to be based more on social factors and substitution effects than raw mechanical basis.

Still waiting on the Boulevard Busters to go from winning tweets to winning tourneys. Are we just unanimously in agreement that they are very good and we don't want to play them?

Also we should probably comment on 's abundance at Albion.

More concerning to me was Greninja’s inability to break into top 8 despite his abundance. Representation can’t be used as an excuse. There’s a worrying lack of evidence to suggest this character can compete at top level.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Greninja players need to accept that he has a bad MU against Snake and get a secondary. iStudying was double eliminated by Snake, ShuC lost to MVD and Greninja’s tournament record against Snake is horrible overall. Snake is a roadblock that Greninja players need to start working around.

Greninja is no Shulk, he actually has results to back up his perception. His perception is generally back to being a high tier rather than a borderline top tier anyway, which seems fair to me.

The character can undoubtedly pull off some nutty stuff, but he’s not impressing me at top level right now. Still, I think he is one to watch, especially if the right characters get nerfed.

 

[Rizen]

It's interesting how is such a popular character but other Pokémon like aren't. has the excuse of being in his little brother's shadow, although I don't rate him as highly as some people.

What the heck makes PT so popular? Maybe there's a little something for everyone.

 

[Krysco]

Rizen it would appear that Mr. R is planning on co-maining Chrom and Young Link, keeping Snake as just a secondary

Partly also why I dropped Wolf when I mained him before

ANYWAY the goal is to main Chrom/YL and have Snake as a secondary :3

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) July 9, 2019

Direct link: https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/1148707220927987712
Hopefully means more results and high level play overall for Young Link. And since you're the resident YL main, I'll also ask what you think of the combination, if Chrom and YL cover each other well MU wise and such.

And if Mr. R having a YL is old news then my b~ I'm only used to seeing his name tied to Chrom when it comes to Ultimate.

 

[Nebunera]

is co-maining basically having 2 mains

 

[$.A.F.]

Yes. Two characters who you play about as much as each other whereas a secondary is more often a character brought out more occasionally for bad matchups and such

 

[Illusion.]

bc1910 I feel like Snake is one of those MUs that be described as “fine on paper, iffy in practice,” similar to . Theoretically, neutral is fine, getting your advantage state going is fine, etc. The issue is they both can instantly reverse your advantage state, or you just make only one or two mistakes, and you’re suddenly dead, completely nullifying all the times you won neutral against them. From there, especially because of rage (terrible mechanic by the way), it can just snowball. Those two characters have specific attributes and can play it safe enough to the point where they just won’t die if they don’t want to, for different reasons.

Our record against Snake is extremely bad, but I’m not quite sure if anyone of us are ready to call it losing yet since, like I said, the MU is fine theoretically. In practice, though, he’s quite polarizing. The meta is still young and anti-Snake strategies will only get better with time.

 

[Routa]

Light placed 17th in Albion while using Sheik in some sets alongside Palutena like for example against Whoophee. But lack of Sheiks is understandable when you have to dedicate a lot of time to get the things rolling and in tournament settings you aren't allowed to mess up without getting punished from it hard.