Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Shulk has this really sad combination of high startup aerials, which is worsened by nair starting behind him and fair arcing, and a low air acceleration that makes his jumps very committal. Not only that, but none of them autocancel (well I guess only fair is relevant for this though) outside of jump art. I would expect him to struggle a ton against characters with good aerial approaches, especially if they happen to have a projectile that can't consistently be naired through.

Wolf and Palutena fit the bill here.

 

[VodkaHaze]

If Shulk's MU chart wasn't exaggerated, he would be actually winning things. All of the top level players who say he has "potential" would flat out pick him up because hey a character with "only two slightly losing MUs out of the entire top tier cast?" spread? That's borderline Brawl MK level. You'd have like, ESAM and a handful of other character loyalists and it would be like 75% Shulk at the top 16 for supermajors regardless of how technical a character is. We've seen in the past with Bayonetta that technicality doesn't stop the bulk of top level players who play to win. I mean, just imagine how good MKLeo would be with Shulk if he truly only slightly loss two MUs, and he's a guy who is far from afraid from experimenting with new characters. He has what, Ike, Lucina, Wolf, Marth, Greninja, Joker all to his name already? Pretty sure if Shulk only lost to two other top level characters MKLeo would pick him up in a heartbeat instead of trying to mess around with Marth, or play with Greninja.

Let me let you in on a little secret: Shulk only appears to "win or go even" with that many characters in top tier because he's so rare that the majority don't know how to play against him, while the handful of people who play Shulk are obviously very well versed in all of the major MUs and know them in and out because they have to constantly play them.

You do not get to claim a character is top tier while also saying "ignore the fact he's only like, 28th in overall results". Doesn't line up, you don't get to jump up 18+ spots on the backs of "potential" claims. Not while also claiming to use logic at least. This is the exact same bloody song and dance he went through almost the entirty of SSB4. No exaggeration, just change the number of MUs he's claimed to win and change the number he's claimed to jump up to by high level players while actual measurable evidence never materializes.

Can we please learn from the past once in a blue moon and accept that if the results don't even come close to the theory (either in potential or in MU charts) then maybe, just maybe the theory is wrong? This isn't a slight deviation this is a major difference between results and theory, with the results saying that he's only maybe high tier. That maybe people not having experience with the MU because outside of a few specialists nobody plays him inflates how well those specialists do? Maybe for once actually looking at how those specialists almost always fall down when travelling to super majors and considering the idea that "hrm, you know, seeing as they struggle to even get into top 32 when the chips are on the line, maybe they aren't actually top tier because if these top level players knew the MU better the specialists might get whooped even harder?"

Results are what decide when theory is warranted or not. Theory without results is worthless. You know what it looks like when people claim a character is underrated and then prove it? Sonic back in Brawl, who shot up from low tier to upper mid in one tournament because both of his top level mains went to the same super major and ended up top 16 (possibly top 8, memory getting a bit hazy on that). One of the Sonics had to fight a gauntlet of MKs, the other one had to fight every top/high level character but MK, and then the two had to play each other. They put results to where the theory was and proved it. All Shulk has proved that it takes a miracle for him to reach top 32.

No, it's not. Pikachu has arguably no losing MUs and he's far from Brawl MK level. Smash 4 Cloud had one losing MU (Sheik) and yet lots of to players played other characters, proving that a character being strong isn't enough for people to pick him up.

Take Dabuz, for instance. Dabuz thinks Shulk is incredibly strong, but he doesn't play Shulk himself. Is this strange? Not really, seeing how he played Rosalina & Luma in Smash 4 when Bayonetta and Cloud existed. Top players don't always pick the strongest characters (and Shulk might not be the best character in the game anyway).

By this logic, people shouldn't put Pikachu in top tier either (Pikachu at #24, Shulk at #26).

Smash 4 Corrin says hi.

Many people on Smashboards put too much stock in results, which can be misleading. Remember when people here thought Smash 4 Mario was top 5? I remember. Remember when people here thought Smash 4 Corrin wasn't top 20? I remember. I also remember when people thought Ness was top 15 because FOW was doing well (turns out FOW and a few other Ness mains were very good at the character).

Shulk lacks top 50 players, neither Nicko nor Kome were ever top 50 on the PGR. They're not bad players, but for the time being they haven't proven to be skilled enough to compete with the absolute best (though Nicko has done well in locals vs VoiD, so that's something).

Is it possible Shulk is actually not that good and people just don't know the MU? Sure, but I don't think the "lack of results" should matter much, especially not at this point in time when the game is still fairly new. We know from past experience that it sometimes takes years before a character starts getting solid results, but that doesn't mean that character wasn't good before then.

Just to ask when you guys say Pikachu is #24 and Shulk is #26, where are you getting that from?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Just to ask when you guys say Pikachu is #24 and Shulk is #26, where are you getting that from?

OrionStats: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

One can certainly argue that it's not perfect and I'd agree, but it's one way to look at stats at least.

 

[VodkaHaze]

OrionStats: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

One can certainly argue that it's not perfect and I'd agree, but it's one way to look at stats at least.

Yeah, it's clearly not perfect, such as having Pit and Dark Pit as separate characters which I don't know if it's warranted, but then having Pit as #73 and Dark Pit at #62. Still, if you treat it as a proxy rather than a tier list set in stone, it can be a good way of examining how well characters do at tournaments.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I an generally curious about wii fit trainer. What do yall think about her potential in this game?

 

[Gleam]

I think gets the exact same overrated excuse does, but on a much higher scale. I can't say I know much about Wii Fit Trainer, but what I do know is that she's currently Bottom 10 on Orion and doesn't have an excuse of "lacking popularity" If we go back a few pages to Das Koopa's data sheet, you'll notice a few things.

WFT has similar usages to , characters mostly deemed to be within the Mid Tier, maybe Upper Mid. However Wii Fit Trainer doesn't have half of their results.

, character who in the eyes of many have been deemed garbage (especially the first two) all have less usage than WFT and superior results.

She literally has the usage of a Mid Tier but the results of a Low Tier and while I certainly admit to lacking knowledge on the character, such data speaks a lot. This is a character who has some of the worst results in the game and is praised for being good somehow. If you get such results, especially when you have decent usage, speaks probably of a character who isn't that good.

Wii Fit Trainer has the same excuse given to people like , it's not about results, it's about her "potential." But again, at least Shulk gets results and you could even argue he's better than his results because he has less usage than character in the same spot. WFT has none of that and if we're honestly going to ignore such atrocious results for the sake of what WFT "might" be...

Then we might as well throw everyone in High Tier cause "potential."

Some say results aren't everything, but you still need something to support yourself.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So Zero released the rest of his tier list this morning and listed who he thought was top tier. Outside of Olimar (post-nerf) and maybe Wario, all of the characters he has listed there seem like the characters most people think are top tier at the moment.

One thing in his top tier sticks out to me though with that thing being that Pikachu is listed as the best character in Ultimate. Does anyone else think that his placement for Pikachu is pretty reasonable?

 

[Tri Knight]

View attachment 229550So Zero released the rest of his tier list this morning and listed who he thought was top tier. Outside of Olimar (post-nerf) and maybe Wario, all of the characters he has listed there seem like the characters most people think are top tier at the moment.

One thing in his top tier sticks out to me though with that thing being that Pikachu is listed as the best character in Ultimate. Does anyone else think that his placement for Pikachu is pretty reasonable?

I think Snake is better than Joker and Pikachu but maybe that's just me.

 

[|RK|]

I think Snake is better than Joker and Pikachu but maybe that's just me.

I'm with you, but I'm still not sure that there is a "best."

Might personally throw Joker, Snake, and Pika together as a tie

 

[bc1910]

I agree with Joker, Snake and Pika being a sensible top 3. There’s a theory vs results argument in picking the definitive best.

Pika seems like the most well rounded and loses the fewest MUs (only Ness and maybe Peach) but is also the least explosive/“stupid” in my opinion and has the worst results of the three.

Snake has iffy theory with tricky MUs against a smattering of characters all over the tier list including Palu, G&W, Isabelle and more. However, it’s impossible to ignore his incredible results. The fact that his bad MUs outside of Palu are very uncommon helps him (though it remains to be seen if he does indeed lose to Joker, which would hurt him a lot). He’s also very hard to fight for a lot of top tiers.

Joker is kind of a mix of the two, with excellent results from Leo but a lukewarm showing elsewhere. He has a handful of losing MUs to rushdown speedsters while being very strong against pretty much every character who doesn’t fit this archetype.

I’d lean toward Snake as the best right now all things considered, with Joker as his closest contender.

 

[Lacrimosa]

What about ?
I don't really see him outside of Top 5 with that excellent framedata and a huge disjoint...

 

[Tri Knight]

I'm with you, but I'm still not sure that there is a "best."

Might personally throw Joker, Snake, and Pika together as a tie

Yeah I agree to an extent. I think the top tiers, or at least most of them are pretty even. Same with some of Zero's perceived high tiers. The ones I think belong there are pretty even there too.

Then again, they are within the same tier so it's natural that they're close in ability. But if I were to pick one to JUST edge out the others, I'd go with Snake.

Edit: although just watched Esam's and his Pikachu and he is just flat out stupid good. Gotta give props to him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

What about ?
I don't really see him outside of Top 5 with that excellent framedata and a huge disjoint...

His disjoint size is average at best, but is mostly made up for his blinding speed.
However, he (and Chrom) suffers from notable weaknesses, with the biggest ones being some disadvantage issues stemming from being easy to combo and being exploitable offstage.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I've been pocketing Roy lately and despite being simple to wield on paper he's actually a lot harder to play then I though. I feel like this disadvantage is a serious weakness, and not just because he's comboed easily.

He has good aerials but they can be somewhat awkward to land with and don't give him good coverage underneath him. Despite fantastic air speed he has among the worst air accelerations in the game (tied with Bowser, Dedede and K.Rool), meaning you have to use b-reversing or air dodges to mix up your landing position. Stage control also feels extra important as him since he really doesn't like being forced to recover from far out. Being near the ledge with him is terrifying since it could lead to an early death as any second.

He can explode on you pretty hard and is pretty stressful to face, but he can pretty easily be exploded on himself. Still a pretty dang good character but I feel like his weaknesses are a bit more exploitable then your typical top tier.

 

[NairWizard]

I can't believe that we're doing this same song and dance of Pikachu being top 5 that we went through in both Brawl AND smash 4. ESAM is really good, but the character has obvious and pronounced flaws; he's no top tier. Trust me; I played this character for years at a very high level. The theory doesn't pan out in practice. The advantage state conversions depend on immense reaction time and even then aren't guaranteed. The neutral is lacking. The disadvantage is fake.

Pikachu received lots of buffs going from 4 to Ultimate, and I mean lots of them, but he's still scraping upper high tier in my estimation. He's got some of the same flaws that he's always had--low range combined with low airspeed (though sh b-air helped a ton), situational kill power (though dash attack and d-air buffs helped a ton--the n-air change hurt, on the other hand), and weak options against shield (though sh tjolt helped a ton).

For some reason though, just like in 4, players of almost every character believe him to be a hard matchup. It wasn't true back then, and it still isn't true. But the character has Shulk syndrome. No matter what his results are, people will continue to justify him as top tier.

 

[Nah]

What do you mean by "the disadvantage is fake" exactly?

 

[NairWizard]

People have been saying that Pikachu has one of the best disadvantage states in the game ever since the inception of smash 4. It was kind of true in 4, but his disadvantage state got a lot worse going into Ultimate.

Quick Attack as a landing option is overrated; it has a lot of startup (more than many smash attacks) and there are only certain heights from which it can be used to land safely. During the animation Pikachu's hurtbox expands significantly in all games (this expansion seems to have been toned down a bit in Ultimate, admittedly). Against slower characters like Incineroar it's a great tool for getting out of the juggle, but against anyone with sizable disjoint and/or speed the other character can dash around on the ground and wait for Pikachu to commit to something. Platform canceling made QA landings much better in S4; in Ultimate, Battlefield is actually one of Pikachu's worst stages (partly due to tjolt interactions), so you almost never want to go there and abuse all of the QA landing spots. Additionally, at low percents, QA won't even combo like it did in S4, so you don't have much to be afraid of getting hit by it, you can feel free to take a dash-in guess to his direction if you don't feel confident in reacting to the animation and then f-smash him for your trouble.

Despite having decent air accel, Pikachu has really poor max air speed and poor hitbox coverage on the way down. He doesn't have a Palutena n-air or a Lucina f-air to cover after accelerating to one side, and he falls somewhat like a floaty and it's pretty easy to get under him when he's landing. This was even true in 4. Megaman up-air used to be one of the sickest tools against Pikachu for this reason in that game. Back then, though, Pika did have his f3 strong-hit n-air, which was a strong deterrent to aerial pursuit. His flashy new combo'ing n-air doesn't have the same escape power. The stronger up-air is definitely a buff to his landing options, but at the same time he also lost airdodge into pancake b-air, one of his strongest tools against fast grounded characters who didn't have to worry about QA like Sonic.

Overall he's much, much worse at landing than he was in S4, and in S4 he already wasn't that good at it once you learned to be patient and didn't overcommit to the juggle.

It's also actually not that hard to edgeguard Pikachu if you're well-versed in the matchup and have a decent lingering tool; there are a lot of angles from which he can recover but QA's startup makes it so that you can always get a rough estimate of when he's going to land, and you know that most of the time he's going for the ledge. Ike eruption used to eat Pikachu's recovery for free in 4 in so many contexts (granted, Ike's eruption ate a lot of recoveries for free, but still--for something that was cited as "the best recovery in the game," that's a pretty severe shortcoming).

When Pikachu is in the corner, he does have some pretty good options for getting past you, which is one of the few often-overlooked merits to his disadvantage state. And it's probably fair to say that his disadvantage state is in the upper half or upper third of the cast. But it is rather overblown and not free in any sense.

 

[Lacrimosa]

So, after CEO I don't really see a Zelda competing anymore in this PGR season, so I want to ask what the impression in this forum is about her. I'm clearly biased with thinking she's high-tier after some good results at Prime Saga, Pound, SnS5 and now CEO. Surely, nothing broke through Top 16 but that's still pretty impressive. At least I don't think she's low-tier or lower end of mid-tierlike on many tier-lists from top-players.

 

[Thinkaman]

Important reminder:

Usage is a positive measure, not a negative measure.

"Results / Usage" is not a good measure. It implies an inaccurate/simplistic "number of trials" conceptual model of how characters are selected + how performance manifests. According to "results / usage", Fox is a somewhat mediocre Melee character.

More results implies a character is better. More usage implies a character is better.

The most accurate measures, including Orion Rank's deep cut weighted results, incorporate both.

 

[bc1910]

When Pikachu is in the corner, he does have some pretty good options for getting past you, which is one of the few often-overlooked merits to his disadvantage state. And it's probably fair to say that his disadvantage state is in the upper half or upper third of the cast. But it is rather overblown and not free in any sense.

Which characters do you think have a better disadvantage state than Pikachu?

Upper third of the cast is about 23 characters (ignoring echoes; 71 fighters). I’m struggling to think of that many with a better disadvantage state than Pikachu.

 

[NotLiquid]

CaptainZack deleted his Twitter, allegedly he tweeted "tamim was right" before pulling the trigger.

Not sure whether that can be taken as an indication that he's also done/retiring from Smash.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

With once again failing to make top 16-8 a major . it looks like players know how exploit his weakness more becoming more apparent and may off just a wee bit despite some of his worst MU's getting nerfed in 3.1.0. I think he may be like at the end of top 10 or just under it.
I am not sure he even really beats anymore from looking at how resutls from recent touraments

 

[KirbySquad101]

Tbf, CEO wasn't at lucky at all towards . The three big Fox players (Eon, ZD, Light) ended up having to fight each other in the same Top 192 Pool, and Light only ended up losing to Cosmos and Nairo, the former of which was reaaaallllyyyyy close.

I'd still say he's probably a top tier, if not, the lower end of it.

 

[Rizen]

Which characters do you think have a better disadvantage state than Pikachu?

Upper third of the cast is about 23 characters (ignoring echoes; 71 fighters). I’m struggling to think of that many with a better disadvantage state than Pikachu.

Pika's disadvantage is really good so not many. Probably: MK has multiple jumps and 4 recovery moves. G&W has disjoint and an invincible upB that doesn't freefall. Pichu is a little smaller with better air acceleration and air speed.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Is looking to have antohlher pretty solid preformance this week. Ally's countetpick vs MVD was also pretty convinging and the best I have seen of Mario in that MU.
I can see Mario possibly being a top 15 character if not just under it

 

[Tri Knight]

Ryuga went on to lose against Goblin to end it but I didnt get to see the match. Those two seem pretty even as well. I wonder how either of them fare vs Lucina. I imagine Roy having issues with being walled out.

Also Sparg0 put some work in with. I had my doubts about Cloud but in a similar way to ESAM and Pikachu, hes really showing what Cloud can do. I honestly think the kid just choked up at the end. I was cheering for him. It's a shame but he went really freaking far.

On another note, pretty lame, Young Link I believe JUST missed top48 and I didnt see a single Link in there...

 

[MindlessFire]

CEO 2019 Top 16 consists of:

2 x (Ally, Salem)
2 x (MkLeo, Wishes)
2 x (Mr E, ProtoBanham)
2 x (Cosmos, ProtoBanham)
2 x (Dubuz, Nairo)
2 x (Marrs, Nairo)
2 x (Puppeh, Wishes)
2 x (Prodigy, Ally)
1 x (ESAM)
1 x (Samsora)
1 x (Glutonny)
1 x (Salem)
1 x (WaDi)
1 x (Dubuz)

 

[KirbySquad101]

For anyone who's wondering, this what the Top 16 of CEO looks like:

Winner's Side:

Wishes vs Dabuz
Ally vs Marss
Samsora vs Puppeh
Cosmos vs MKLeo

Loser's Side:

Prodigy vs Gluttony
Mr E vs WaDi
Salem vs ESAM
Nairo vs Protobanham

Things to note:

2 Jokers and 2 Pokemon Trainers in top 16, as well as a Rosalina, which definitely spells out good news for all three characters. Also excited to see Puppeh and Wishes in top 16, and in the Winner's Side no less. I don't have my doubts that MKLeo can push through in top 8, but whether or not Wishes and Puppeh can keep their really strong runs, we'll see.

Lucina mains are starting to come out of the woodwork, as both Mr E and Protobanham are still around and kicking.

Mario's putting out another strong run, this time in the form of Prodigy, who's been really picking up his pace lately. He'll have to fight Gluttony, however, who kicked him out of 2GG Prime Saga at 65th place, so we'll see if he can get his revenge.

Even though Shuton is showing that 's still very strong, Dabuz seems fully intent on using ; honestly, it's turning out really well for him so far. Myran unfortunately could not represent Olimar that well this tournament, as he was taken out at 49th by both Sparg0 and Fatality respectively.

Ryuga went on to lose against Goblin to end it but I didnt get to see the match. Those two seem pretty even as well. I wonder how either of them fare vs Lucina. I imagine Roy having issues with being walled out.

Also Sparg0 put some work in with. I had my doubts about Cloud but in a similar way to ESAM and Pikachu, hes really showing what Cloud can do. I honestly think the kid just choked up at the end. I was cheering for him. It's a shame but he went really freaking far.

On another note, pretty lame, Young Link I believe JUST missed top48 and I didnt see a single Link in there...

To be honest, if he didn't choke up as much as he did against Marss, he could've potentially make it to top 16, the begging of game 1 was so much in his favor. That said, between this and taking out kameme, Elegant, and VoiD at Weds Night Fights x Orange County Spring 2019, Sparg0 has been putting out a ton of work out there. The kid and both have a bright future for them.

 

[NotLiquid]

Solo Lucinas are starting to come out of the woodwork, as both Mr E and Protobanham are still around and kicking.

Small correction, but ProtoBanham isn't a solo Lucina, he has Inkling as a secondary and used her to win at least in one set during the tourney. He'll most likely run Lucina through Top 16 since it's his main character, but he could very well end up whipping out the squid.

 

[Frihetsanka]

One thing in his top tier sticks out to me though with that thing being that Pikachu is listed as the best character in Ultimate. Does anyone else think that his placement for Pikachu is pretty reasonable?

Yes, Pikachu benefited greatly from the Olimar nerfs, and Pikachu was already one of the best characters before 3.1.0. Pikachu isn't clear-cut #1, but he's a strong contender for #1.

 

[Tri Knight]

Top tier is looking pretty expensive this time around compared to the past games. Do you think any of the perceived high tiers have a shot at being considered top?

Esit: or perhaps more interestingly, any characters moving down to mid?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Top tier is looking pretty expensive this time around compared to the past games. Do you think any of the perceived high tiers have a shot at being considered top?

I consider and most likely top tier albeit at the low end. The key difference between them and is they have the results to gain a legit argument for that position . Also who knows, quite possibly once he has the chance fully develop in the meta

 

[Rizen]

came out at the perfect time, right before 2 waves of nerfs on top characters. Leo picked him up and now everyone is trying out Joker. Wishes, Void, even Tweek and ESAM. He's definitely flavor of the month; it was the perfect storm. Theoretically if Joker wasn't released characters like Greninja, YL and other high tiers would have gotten a boost.

Still results are results and I can't deny he's getting them. I do think counterplay needs to be developed against Joker before we call him best in the game. Remember when everyone was trying out Link and calling him top 5, like Seagull, Fatality and Salem? It's too early to put a label on Joker.

 

[Tri Knight]

came out at the perfect time, right before 2 waves of nerfs on top characters. Leo picked him up and now everyone is trying out Joker. Wishes, Void, even Tweek and ESAM. He's definitely flavor of the month; it was the perfect storm. Theoretically if Joker wasn't released characters like Greninja, YL and other high tiers would have gotten a boost.

Still results are results and I can't deny he's getting them. I do think counterplay needs to be developed against Joker before we call him best in the game. Remember when everyone was trying out Link and calling him top 5, like Seagull, Fatality and Salem? It's too early to put a label on Joker.

Now Salem doesnt even use Link lol.

I'm sure the hype will die down on Joker though. Hes definitely great but I doubt hes the absolute best character in the game. I'd be more comfortable saying hes a top 10 contender right now.

 

[MindlessFire]

Top tier is looking pretty expensive this time around compared to the past games. Do you think any of the perceived high tiers have a shot at being considered top?

Esit: or perhaps more interestingly, any characters moving down to mid?

You have who is used by top players like Tweek, Gluttony, and Kameme with good tournament results.

came out at the perfect time, right before 2 waves of nerfs on top characters. Leo picked him up and now everyone is trying out Joker. Wishes, Void, even Tweek and ESAM. He's definitely flavor of the month; it was the perfect storm. Theoretically if Joker wasn't released characters like Greninja, YL and other high tiers would have gotten a boost.

Still results are results and I can't deny he's getting them. I do think counterplay needs to be developed against Joker before we call him best in the game. Remember when everyone was trying out Link and calling him top 5, like Seagull, Fatality and Salem? It's too early to put a label on Joker.

Mkleo is the definitely the one responsible for boosting 's popularity. But remember, Leo took a huge gamble learning to play him competitively when he could have easily continued to use . This cost Leo to place 33rd in the Umebura Japan Major 2019, the lowest he's ever placed in a SSBU tournament. Anyone else who's around the same rank as Leo would have quickly dropped him. However, he continued to believe in and continue using him in Get On My Level 2019 placing 4th. The rest was history after MomoCon 2019 and Smash 'N' Splash 5. Nobody thought was any good until Leo started winning major tournaments with him.

 

[DunnoBro]

Nobody thought was any good until Leo started winning major tournaments with him.

I think you're overreaching here. The general consensus was that Joker was high tier before Leo's win. And other high level players like Salem, 6wx, SweetT, and some select mid-level jokers all saw success with the character before MKleo's major win. He definitely showed potential before Leo finally proved it.

 

[Allkings]

who is the most popular character recently? the least?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Important reminder:

Usage is a positive measure, not a negative measure.

"Results / Usage" is not a good measure. It implies an inaccurate/simplistic "number of trials" conceptual model of how characters are selected + how performance manifests. According to "results / usage", Fox is a somewhat mediocre Melee character.

More results implies a character is better. More usage implies a character is better.

The most accurate measures, including Orion Rank's deep cut weighted results, incorporate both.

There's still a problem with such stats and that's taking into account peak performances of a specific character. Probably also the reason why Pikachu is only 25th at the Orion ranks but surely he isn't the 25th best character. I'd still take these statistics with a grain of salt, especially when you know what they don't take into account and peak performance is something you actually look for when making a tier-list: What can the character do at the highest level of play.

 

[Game7a1]

There's still a problem with such stats and that's taking into account peak performances of a specific character. Probably also the reason why Pikachu is only 25th at the Orion ranks but surely he isn't the 25th best character. I'd still take these statistics with a grain of salt, especially when you know what they don't take into account and peak performance is something you actually look for when making a tier-list: What can the character do at the highest level of play.

Well, if you wanted to look at just peak performances, you filter the data to only consider major tournaments. The only issue I see is that we don't have access to such methods. If Pikachu's score was mostly from B through S tier (3 through 5+ category) performances, then our analysis of Pikachu would be different. We might think that while he is not a popular character, Pikachu could be a character that performs very well at the highest level of play. I do know Das Koopa does report on both overall data and data from select tournament categories (at least when he started during Smash 4), so we can either wait until he posts a detailed report, find a way to perform such filtering ourselves, or continue discussing without any way of knowing. Or allows us to mess around with a copy of the dataset.

I would not take Orion Stats with a grain of salt because it collectively considers multiple categories of tournaments, which is important when looking at more than just the highest level of play. It can also serve to observe character usage and trends. That said, a separate statistic of character usage of each tournament category/tier could be helpful in observing character popularity.

 

[Rizen]

who is the most popular character recently? the least?

is the most played if that's what you mean.

Speaking of PT, anyone who thinks 's low tier needs to watch Puppeh.

His Charizard's a beast. Charizard has a devastating Bair, a good recovery and strong OoS options. UpB can armor through a lot.