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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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PK Gaming

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Boy I sure do love how pros push their tier lists for the sake of their brand rather than grouping up for a single list.

It leads to endless discussions of this pro or that pro's list, where they get huge advertising pushes. I miss the old days where the community as a whole came together for lists.
The Smash backroom tier list setup is completely outdated. Even during its prime, it took forever to come out and most productive discussions were drowned out by people complaining about their characters being lowballed. It's a system that doesn't work in an age where balance patches are a regular thing, and you'll notice other fighting game communities doing the same thing.

In any case, I don't think the placements themselves are all that important. It's what top players have to say about a certain character that has me intrigued. ZeRo's obviously doing it for clicks, but Dabuz's tier list was incredibly informative.
 
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ARISTOS

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I keep wondering if Melee players are right about Ultimate players not being able to edgeguard efficiently because of being used to Smash 4 mechanics or it's because of something else. There is almost definitely an inconsistency in 2-framing recoveries, like different moves having different success (Palutena's down tilt lasts for a good while so it's not too difficult to 2-frame with), and then we have recoveries that poke through stage (like Peach), then recoveries that either peek too high or too low before grabbing the ledge. I'm hoping that over time people will have enough experience to find ways to edgeguard each character, though with new DLC and possibly patches that could change the mechanics, it will surely take a while until we're in a "stable state".
I mean the Melee players who played Ultimate early on did not seem any more proficient than S4 players.

Melee ledge hang covered a ton of options so for the most part you only needed to respect the laggy options players had left (land on stage/sweet spot at specific timing/more but I'm on mobile lul)

Peach/Puff/sometimes Pika don't get stuffed by this simple coverage and as such receive complaints about as being impossible to edgeguard
 

Lore

Infinite Gravity
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The Smash backroom tier list setup is completely outdated. Even during its prime, it took forever to come out and most productive discussions were drowned out by people complaining about their characters being lowballed. It's a system that doesn't work in an age where balance patches are a regular thing, and you'll notice other fighting game communities doing the same thing.

In any case, I don't think the placements themselves are all that important. It's what top players have to say about a certain character that has me intrigued. ZeRo's obviously doing it for clicks, but Dabuz's tier list was incredibly informative.
In a world of balance patches, yeah the SBR would have to be faster if it isn't inherently outdated.

But it doesn't change the fact that I lament how Smash (and fighters across the board) have shifted from grassroots, community-focused efforts to being more about individual brands and views. Tournament organizers still have the prior focus (mostly), but pro players definitely don't.

I can't really blame them, with sponsorships etc. Plus Discord and Twitter allowing them to speak to their fans directly rather than the community at large. But it still feels less fun and wholesome than it used to be.
 

Iridium

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Seeding for CEO 2019 is out. Not all of it is questionable, but Raito's rather low seeding confuses me the most. Tweek dropping out of the tourney will definitely shake up most of the bracket, and further the gap between him and Leo.
 
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Lacrimosa

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Seeding for CEO 2019 is out. Not all of it is questionable, but Raito's rather low seeding confuses me the most. Tweek dropping out of the tourney will definitely shake up most of the bracket, and further the gap between him and Leo.
Some are overseeded, some underseeded or feel underseeded like Wizzrobe, Zenyou, Ven but that shouldn't really matter.
But there are some interesting pool finals if everything goes as planned until there.

Eon vs. Prince Ramen
ZD vs. Snoop
cookieslayer vs. Uncivil Ninja


Only to name a few and whose names I recognize. There are probably way more interesting pool's finals.
 

Frihetsanka

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ProtoBanham under Wishes and WaDi seems strange to me, he has a 2nd at an S-tier (Umebura Japan Major 2019), which is better than anything Wishes and WaDi have done in Ultimate. Raito seems really underseeded given that he has a 3rd place at an S-tier (Umebura Japan Major 2019).
 

KirbySquad101

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In news related to CEO, Tweek said that he was going to omit himself from the tournament and is likely taking some time away from the tournament scene altogether.
 
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Anomika

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The absence of Tweek is interesting. If he won't attend the tournaments for a good while, then someone else might push :ultwario:'s potential forward.
 

Ziodyne 21

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The absence of Tweek is interesting. If he won't attend the tournaments for a good while, then someone else might push :ultwario:'s potential forward.

Wario still has Gluttony, who is also still attending CEO. Kameme also uses him as a secondary too
 

KakuCP9

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Out of curiosity, are you going to make thread like that for any tier list that would spark discussion or is this a one time thing?
Tbh I am weary of tier nitpicking in the thread myself.
 

Shaya

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I'd rather other people make threads for them - and link it (potentially also including a summary of thoughts / what one's learned, gleamed or gained from it) here if it's a "super relevant person".

But "I know better, xD" posts tick me off amidst other active conversation topics. It inter-mingling into a topic entirely dedicated to the one subject is... a lot less corrosive.

Don't wish to make a habit of it.
 
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KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
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Yeah, part of it is that unless there's a huge tourney involved, there really isn't much discussion going on and sometimes it just pivots to those videos due the people making it having kinda of a non-trivial influence. Plus the character discussions back in Smash 4 kinda showed most people don't want to start the proverbial fireworks and that's kinda how it wound up defunct barely half-through which is kinda of what's going on now. Though as someone who has a detain for those topics, I probably should have tried starting a different discussion rather than just ***** about the situation and do nothing.
 

|RK|

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Regarding the Palu clip, I'm not sure Palu usmash wouldn't have hit. Kirby's dsmash hits Arsene up b, and I'm sure Palu's usmash goes lower?
 

Rizen

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I wouldn't mind if tier list discussion was relegated to separate threads. TBH I'm finding less and less reason to post. Nobody cares about :ultyounglink:'s MUs and he never does anything worth talking about. IDC about tier lists. :( We need a major to shake things up.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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I wouldn't mind if tier list discussion was relegated to separate threads. TBH I'm finding less and less reason to post. Nobody cares about :ultyounglink:'s MUs and he never does anything worth talking about. IDC about tier lists. :( We need a major to shake things up.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But with Tweek, the only pro player who has made any results with YL seemingly taking a break from competive play for personal reasons, it looking like he will fade even further in competive resutls. Its a rough position I must say
But..It is something you kinda have to take into account in a game with a roster with 70+ characters. Some will unfortunately not get enough attention or thought they need or possibly deserve. Kinda feel for YL mains at this point. :ultshulk: gets put into top tier in just about every pro players tier lists because of "potential" despite his obvious weaknesses. Cant other characters get that attention?
 
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Anomika

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Now I know it's not the same situation as with Shulk, but there are at least three things that can make top/high tiers become less/not so popular. I can think of being too awkward to use (as in case with Shulk, and I think top players calling a character difficult and being awkward to use is related), being boring to use (as with Lucina, though she's still pretty popular overall, it's just that at the top level you don't see many even though she's unanimously the best swordfighter in this game) and getting nerfed (as was the case with Olimar / Pichu), so players drop them because they need more effort to get same results, or forces the way the character is played. There are surely more points that can cause some "top/high tier" characters to not be as popular as others (such as in Young Link's case, I don't think he's in any of the three situations), I can only think of current players being fine with their current main or they have switched from Young Link for some reason. I'm afraid of him getting a SSB4 Yoshi syndrome, where he was considered high tier but steadily dropped to mid tiers with popularity noticeably dropping. (I think it was Yoshi, I didn't follow the SSB4 meta)
 

Anomika

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MKLeo has a surprising power of influencing specific character's popularity. He uses that one fighter? You instantly see them at any level. He drops them? Too bad. You'll likely see them less often. While :ultwolf: is still pretty popular and strong even after the nerfs, the fact that he appears less in tournaments after Leo switched to Joker tells something. I bet that if he used :ultyounglink: as a main he would be instantly more popular. I can also see this happening with next DLC fighters. People's opinions weren't so toxic on :ultjoker: until he used him and started getting results, but he's popular nonetheless, maybe he would've been even without Leo since he was one of more anticipating fighters and has interesting attributes, but him maining Joker likely made him even more common in competitive play.
 

NotLiquid

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MKLeo has a surprising power of influencing specific character's popularity. He uses that one fighter? You instantly see them at any level. He drops them? Too bad. You'll likely see them less often. While :ultwolf: is still pretty popular and strong even after the nerfs, the fact that he appears less in tournaments after Leo switched to Joker tells something. I bet that if he used :ultyounglink: as a main he would be instantly more popular. I can also see this happening with next DLC fighters. People's opinions weren't so toxic on :ultjoker: until he used him and started getting results, but he's popular nonetheless, maybe he would've been even without Leo since he was one of more anticipating fighters and has interesting attributes, but him maining Joker likely made him even more common in competitive play.
I kinda question what influence MKLeo's switch had on Wolf representation. For one thing, MKLeo was never a dedicated main in Ultimate until he settled on Joker, he had at least two more characters in heavy rotation that had just as much significant impact in terms of results, if not more. More importantly, a majority of people picked Wolf up in the first place thanks to Zackray, who is the most notable main of the character.

If Wolf dropped off at a top level thanks to any one player, I don't see it attributable that much to MKLeo. Zackray is more arguable, he's not traveling as much anymore (kid's still young) and he's also been playing a dozen different secondaries in regionals.
 
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Anomika

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None of his fighters before Joker were necessarily his real mains, but I still think top players can impact the popularity of certain characters (MKLeo included). The impact may not be big, though.
 

Frihetsanka

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:ultshulk: gets put into top tier in just about every pro players tier lists because of "potential" despite his obvious weaknesses.
"obvious weaknesses", in which MUs do these weaknesses matter enough for Shulk to be losing them? Shulk's MU spread appears to be incredibly strong, perhaps one of the best in the game, and several notable players think that their main loses to Shulk (and they play top tiers!). Shulk may have flaws, but if he still wins or goes even with nearly every character in the game those flaws aren't that bad.

Until people start coming up with plausible losing MUs for Shulk I'll keep placing him in top tier on my personal tier list. Matchups matter more than anything else in this game (more than other forms of theorycrafting or results).
 

Ziodyne 21

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Well vids have shows Shulk really seems to stuggle vs :ultpalutena:. It does not matter if Shulk nair has more range, her nair starts up so much quicker she will beat him in the air most times. Same thing goes with her armoured bair that comes out quicker than anything shulk can do in the air. Nicko has complained a lot about the Plau MU on twitter too
 
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Frihetsanka

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Well vids have shows Shulk really seems to stuggle vs :ultpalutena:. It does not matter if Shulk nair has more range, her nair starts up so much quicker she will beat him in the air most times. Same thing goes with her armoured bair that comes out quicker than anything shulk can do in the air
Yes, Palutena might be losing, Snake might be losing as well. Two slightly losing MUs, several potentially winning vs top tiers, and an overall good MU spread still means Shulk should be top tier.
 

Nidtendofreak

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If Shulk's MU chart wasn't exaggerated, he would be actually winning things. All of the top level players who say he has "potential" would flat out pick him up because hey a character with "only two slightly losing MUs out of the entire top tier cast?" spread? That's borderline Brawl MK level. You'd have like, ESAM and a handful of other character loyalists and it would be like 75% Shulk at the top 16 for supermajors regardless of how technical a character is. We've seen in the past with Bayonetta that technicality doesn't stop the bulk of top level players who play to win. I mean, just imagine how good MKLeo would be with Shulk if he truly only slightly loss two MUs, and he's a guy who is far from afraid from experimenting with new characters. He has what, Ike, Lucina, Wolf, Marth, Greninja, Joker all to his name already? Pretty sure if Shulk only lost to two other top level characters MKLeo would pick him up in a heartbeat instead of trying to mess around with Marth, or play with Greninja.

Let me let you in on a little secret: Shulk only appears to "win or go even" with that many characters in top tier because he's so rare that the majority don't know how to play against him, while the handful of people who play Shulk are obviously very well versed in all of the major MUs and know them in and out because they have to constantly play them.

You do not get to claim a character is top tier while also saying "ignore the fact he's only like, 28th in overall results". Doesn't line up, you don't get to jump up 18+ spots on the backs of "potential" claims. Not while also claiming to use logic at least. This is the exact same bloody song and dance he went through almost the entirty of SSB4. No exaggeration, just change the number of MUs he's claimed to win and change the number he's claimed to jump up to by high level players while actual measurable evidence never materializes.

Can we please learn from the past once in a blue moon and accept that if the results don't even come close to the theory (either in potential or in MU charts) then maybe, just maybe the theory is wrong? This isn't a slight deviation this is a major difference between results and theory, with the results saying that he's only maybe high tier. That maybe people not having experience with the MU because outside of a few specialists nobody plays him inflates how well those specialists do? Maybe for once actually looking at how those specialists almost always fall down when travelling to super majors and considering the idea that "hrm, you know, seeing as they struggle to even get into top 32 when the chips are on the line, maybe they aren't actually top tier because if these top level players knew the MU better the specialists might get whooped even harder?"

Results are what decide when theory is warranted or not. Theory without results is worthless. You know what it looks like when people claim a character is underrated and then prove it? Sonic back in Brawl, who shot up from low tier to upper mid in one tournament because both of his top level mains went to the same super major and ended up top 16 (possibly top 8, memory getting a bit hazy on that). One of the Sonics had to fight a gauntlet of MKs, the other one had to fight every top/high level character but MK, and then the two had to play each other. They put results to where the theory was and proved it. All Shulk has proved that it takes a miracle for him to reach top 32.
 

SwagGuy99

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I think we can all agree that nobody will ever agree about Shulk.

In my opinion though, Shulk is kind of a character who requires so much skill to play that I doubt he will ever reach his full potential. His matchup spread is supposedly pretty good (which is a reasonable opinion given how he works as a character) but if he can't win (or even place Top 8) at a big tournament, I'm not sure we can consider him a top tier yet.
 

ARISTOS

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I think we can all agree that nobody will ever agree about Shulk.

In my opinion though, Shulk is kind of a character who requires so much skill to play that I doubt he will ever reach his full potential. His matchup spread is supposedly pretty good (which is a reasonable opinion given how he works as a character) but if he can't win (or even place Top 8) at a big tournament, I'm not sure we can consider him a top tier yet.
Outside of the Monado modifiers (which are indeed tricky to use) Shulk does normal swordie stuff, which in Smash has never been rocket science
 

Frihetsanka

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All of the top level players who say he has "potential" would flat out pick him up because hey a character with "only two slightly losing MUs out of the entire top tier cast?" spread? That's borderline Brawl MK level.
No, it's not. Pikachu has arguably no losing MUs and he's far from Brawl MK level. Smash 4 Cloud had one losing MU (Sheik) and yet lots of to players played other characters, proving that a character being strong isn't enough for people to pick him up.

Take Dabuz, for instance. Dabuz thinks Shulk is incredibly strong, but he doesn't play Shulk himself. Is this strange? Not really, seeing how he played Rosalina & Luma in Smash 4 when Bayonetta and Cloud existed. Top players don't always pick the strongest characters (and Shulk might not be the best character in the game anyway).

You do not get to claim a character is top tier while also saying "ignore the fact he's only like, 28th in overall results". Doesn't line up, you don't get to jump up 18+ spots on the backs of "potential" claims.
By this logic, people shouldn't put Pikachu in top tier either (Pikachu at #24, Shulk at #26).

Can we please learn from the past once in a blue moon and accept that if the results don't even come close to the theory (either in potential or in MU charts) then maybe, just maybe the theory is wrong?
Smash 4 Corrin says hi.

Many people on Smashboards put too much stock in results, which can be misleading. Remember when people here thought Smash 4 Mario was top 5? I remember. Remember when people here thought Smash 4 Corrin wasn't top 20? I remember. I also remember when people thought Ness was top 15 because FOW was doing well (turns out FOW and a few other Ness mains were very good at the character).

Shulk lacks top 50 players, neither Nicko nor Kome were ever top 50 on the PGR. They're not bad players, but for the time being they haven't proven to be skilled enough to compete with the absolute best (though Nicko has done well in locals vs VoiD, so that's something).

Is it possible Shulk is actually not that good and people just don't know the MU? Sure, but I don't think the "lack of results" should matter much, especially not at this point in time when the game is still fairly new. We know from past experience that it sometimes takes years before a character starts getting solid results, but that doesn't mean that character wasn't good before then.
 

|RK|

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If Shulk's MU chart wasn't exaggerated, he would be actually winning things. All of the top level players who say he has "potential" would flat out pick him up because hey a character with "only two slightly losing MUs out of the entire top tier cast?" spread? That's borderline Brawl MK level. You'd have like, ESAM and a handful of other character loyalists and it would be like 75% Shulk at the top 16 for supermajors regardless of how technical a character is. We've seen in the past with Bayonetta that technicality doesn't stop the bulk of top level players who play to win. I mean, just imagine how good MKLeo would be with Shulk if he truly only slightly loss two MUs, and he's a guy who is far from afraid from experimenting with new characters. He has what, Ike, Lucina, Wolf, Marth, Greninja, Joker all to his name already? Pretty sure if Shulk only lost to two other top level characters MKLeo would pick him up in a heartbeat instead of trying to mess around with Marth, or play with Greninja.

Let me let you in on a little secret: Shulk only appears to "win or go even" with that many characters in top tier because he's so rare that the majority don't know how to play against him, while the handful of people who play Shulk are obviously very well versed in all of the major MUs and know them in and out because they have to constantly play them.

You do not get to claim a character is top tier while also saying "ignore the fact he's only like, 28th in overall results". Doesn't line up, you don't get to jump up 18+ spots on the backs of "potential" claims. Not while also claiming to use logic at least. This is the exact same bloody song and dance he went through almost the entirty of SSB4. No exaggeration, just change the number of MUs he's claimed to win and change the number he's claimed to jump up to by high level players while actual measurable evidence never materializes.

Can we please learn from the past once in a blue moon and accept that if the results don't even come close to the theory (either in potential or in MU charts) then maybe, just maybe the theory is wrong? This isn't a slight deviation this is a major difference between results and theory, with the results saying that he's only maybe high tier. That maybe people not having experience with the MU because outside of a few specialists nobody plays him inflates how well those specialists do? Maybe for once actually looking at how those specialists almost always fall down when travelling to super majors and considering the idea that "hrm, you know, seeing as they struggle to even get into top 32 when the chips are on the line, maybe they aren't actually top tier because if these top level players knew the MU better the specialists might get whooped even harder?"

Results are what decide when theory is warranted or not. Theory without results is worthless. You know what it looks like when people claim a character is underrated and then prove it? Sonic back in Brawl, who shot up from low tier to upper mid in one tournament because both of his top level mains went to the same super major and ended up top 16 (possibly top 8, memory getting a bit hazy on that). One of the Sonics had to fight a gauntlet of MKs, the other one had to fight every top/high level character but MK, and then the two had to play each other. They put results to where the theory was and proved it. All Shulk has proved that it takes a miracle for him to reach top 32.
Ehhhh, wanted to respond to the first paragraph.

People are surprisingly more stubborn than this argument shows. People will pick up an EASY character that they think is busted (see: pocket Clouds), but Bayonetta wasn't really adopted by the majority of top players regardless of how powerful she was. The major outlier was Tweek. Everyone else rose to prominence once they chose Bayo (including Salem, who wasn't as active until she came out).

EDIT: Also, maybe I'm biased, but pretty much every Shulk I've seen play doesn't look like the char holds them back. I feel like I notice flaws in Shulk play more than almost any other char - win or lose.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Take Dabuz, for instance. Dabuz thinks Shulk is incredibly strong, but he doesn't play Shulk himself. Is this strange? Not really, seeing how he played Rosalina & Luma in Smash 4 when Bayonetta and Cloud existed. Top players don't always pick the strongest characters (and Shulk might not be the best character in the game anyway).
Well Rosalina was also considered a top 5 character in Smash 4. He did not use Cloud or Bayo but he used a top-tier character

By this logic, people shouldn't put Pikachu in top tier either (Pikachu at #24, Shulk at #26).
To be fair judging Pikachu based soley on results is inaccurate conisdering Pika was in a similar postion as Marth before 3.1.0 rolled out in that he was overshadowed in almost every way by a character that is was a semi-copy of him in Pichu. There was little reason to pick Pika over is pre-evolution unless you were ESAM.
However now with Pichu getting signifigantly nerfed Pikachu is likely the better character now, and may very well rise higher in results
 
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Anomika

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While I do agree that it's still too early to give final opnions on the tier placements (especially with a massive roster), I can understand the skepticism. It's not limited to tier lists either; saying whether a certain fighter has been buffed or nerfed is determined by direct changes in the early meta, while it takes time to discover / optimize things and then say whether certain fighter is buffed or nerfed. Mario is a solid example: considered mid tier during first three months or so, then got above average results despite the "obvious" nerfs and then was viewed highly. DK is the opposite. He was considered the best heavyweight in first two months (I was actually one of the few that thought that Bowser was actually the best at that time), but now he's somewhere in mid tier, maybe even low-mid. I wouldn't be surprised if we see another high tier dropping to mid even without getting any nerfs in a few months from now. It's both a beauty and a curse to see the tier lists changing every so often.
 

Frihetsanka

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Well Rosalina was also considered a top 5 character in Smash 4. He did not use Cloud or Bayo but he used a top-tier character
Shouldn't this apply to Shulk as well? People are using other top tiers that are easier to use, that doesn't mean Shulk isn't top tier.

However now with Pichu getting signifigantly nerfed Pikachu is likely the better character now, and may very well get top-tier results
I haven't seen many top level players picking up Pikachu, although I suppose Pikachu's position in the meta is a bit better than before since some of his worst MUs got nerfed (like Olimar). Still, my point still holds: If Shulk isn't top tier due to lack of results, then Pikachu isn't top tier either. Either you accept that Shulk's subpar results make him not a top tier and apply the same for Pikachu, or you consider other factors that might make Pikachu and/or Shulk top tier.
 

DelugeFGC

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Pikachu doesn't have extremely demonstrable weaknesses in the same vein that Shulk does.

With Shulk it's not just 'unseen potential' that puts people off, it's the fact that there's plenty of 'seen' anti-potential in things like his abysmal frame data.
 

Frihetsanka

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Pikachu doesn't have extremely demonstrable weaknesses in the same vein that Shulk does.

With Shulk it's not just 'unseen potential' that puts people off, it's the fact that there's plenty of 'seen' anti-potential in things like his abysmal frame data.
That's fair, but my point still stands: If we accept the argument "Shulk doesn't have result" as enough to disqualify him from top tier, then Pikachu should be excluded as well. Personally, I'm going to keep putting Pikachu in top tier despite Pikachu only being around 25th best, result-wise.
 

Nah

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Citing MU charts as a means to validate the claim that Shulk (or any other character) is a bona fide top tier (or any other tier position) isn't really a good way to do so, especially in a game with a big ass roster that's not even a year old yet.

MU charts by themselves are largely meaningless, as what matters is the reasoning and/or evidence behind the placements. How do we know that "Shulk beats everyone except a literal few characters" is a true statement? Or even just for individual matchups, what makes the statement "X beats Y" or "A loses to B" or "this is even" true? People just saying something is true doesn't make it true.

this is not a statement of my opinion on Shulk's tier placement btw, idk where I'd place him
 

Rizen

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Colorado
"obvious weaknesses", in which MUs do these weaknesses matter enough for Shulk to be losing them? Shulk's MU spread appears to be incredibly strong, perhaps one of the best in the game, and several notable players think that their main loses to Shulk (and they play top tiers!). Shulk may have flaws, but if he still wins or goes even with nearly every character in the game those flaws aren't that bad.

Until people start coming up with plausible losing MUs for Shulk I'll keep placing him in top tier on my personal tier list. Matchups matter more than anything else in this game (more than other forms of theorycrafting or results).
The thing is there's no proof Shulk has one of the best MU spread in the game. We don't need to disprove Shulk's top tier because he's never shown he is in the first place. You'd think he'd preform better if his MUs were really that good. My theory is he has a well rounded MU spread with a lot of even MUs but doesn't win all that many against the best characters. From what I've seen he probably loses to Joker.
Palutena
and Wolf. Maybe more.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Posting single videos is kinda weak. Does Nicko have constant struggles vs. Larry, though? As far as I'M aware they are from the same region? I mean, Mystearica also has a win over Darkshad's Shulk with Zelda. That doesn't make the MU good for her, though. Or at least I think it's in Shulk's favor.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,902
Location
Colorado
Posting single videos is kinda weak.
I'm tired of this argument against examples. It's basically assuming that the example is an isolated incident while doing nothing to disprove it. I'm not going to wade through dozens of videos and cross reference all my sources in some big essay just to post on this forum. The point is these all happened. No they're not conclusive in proving how MUs go but they give a good indication of why they might go a certain way.
 
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