Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[|RK|]

is the most played if that's what you mean.

Speaking of PT, anyone who thinks 's low tier needs to watch Puppeh.

His Charizard's a beast. Charizard has a devastating Bair, a good recovery and strong OoS options. UpB can armor through a lot.

Doesn't make him not low tier by himself. Any char could look really good if they only came out in specific situations.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I would still put solo Zard in low tier because of his many, many issues.

For the same reason that Mac wasn't shot up the tier list last-patch when he got potent combo game added to his kit.. it's great and all but it doesn't really solve any of the core issues that hurt him most. As good as some of Zard's tools can be, he has serious problems otherwise that leads to him being easily exploited. Just being touched with Zard out can be a ton of % or even a stock due to how bad his disadvantage is. You have Down-B, but it's not the get out of jail free card some make it out to be either.

Zard has some juice, and it's for this reason I don't think he's the worst character in the game or anything, but on his own his MU spread is totally abysmal and he's very easily exploited. Even so, he doesn't have scary combos, baller kill confirms or any truly great options to set him above his problems in the first place.. he simply has a handful of fairly good tools that usually end up being pretty situational.


Overall I don't think the solo tier placements of each Pokemon matter much in the long run anyway, because you have access to three any time you play the character and nothing is forcing you to lock yourself into one. As such, Zard's issues are masked immensely.

 

[Rizen]

Doesn't make him not low tier by himself. Any char could look really good if they only came out in specific situations.

I would still put solo Zard in low tier because of his many, many issues.

For the same reason that Mac wasn't shot up the tier list last-patch when he got potent combo game added to his kit.. it's great and all but it doesn't really solve any of the core issues that hurt him most. As good as some of Zard's tools can be, he has serious problems otherwise that leads to him being easily exploited. Just being touched with Zard out can be a ton of % or even a stock due to how bad his disadvantage is. You have Down-B, but it's not the get out of jail free card some make it out to be either.

Zard has some juice, and it's for this reason I don't think he's the worst character in the game or anything, but on his own his MU spread is totally abysmal and he's very easily exploited. Even so, he doesn't have scary combos, baller kill confirms or any truly great options to set him above his problems in the first place.. he simply has a handful of fairly good tools that usually end up being pretty situational.


Overall I don't think the solo tier placements of each Pokemon matter much in the long run anyway, because you have access to three any time you play the character and nothing is forcing you to lock yourself into one. As such, Zard's issues are masked immensely.

Tiers are largely subjective but if you're going to put in mid tier there's no way Zard's low tier. Zard gets juggled but so does every large character and at least Zard has an extra jump and great recovery. Zard's much less vulnerable offstage than most big characters, although still vulnerable. As mentioned, Zard's OoS is one of the better ones. He also has a f4 jab which is great as a GTFO tool and a kill throw. These are tools other heavies wish they had.

I agree being part of a team covers Zard's weaknesses but it also puts him in the shadow of Ivysaur. Puppeh is one of the few trainers who works with Zard rather than brushing him aside and it works out. He held his own against ESAM's Pika, who has a notoriously good advantage state. Zard's not as weak as people think.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Zard's upB is frame 9.
That's just not that great for an OoS option even if the hitbox goes into both directions. For reference, Zelda has an frame 6 upB and Zero called that bad.
Anyway, I think ESAM ran blindly into Charizard way too often. I would call this underestimating the Zard because Esam doesn't think that high of him.

 

[Rizen]

Zard's upB is frame 9.
That's just not that great for an OoS option even if the hitbox goes into both directions. For reference, Zelda has an frame 6 upB and Zero called that bad.
Anyway, I think ESAM ran blindly into Charizard way too often. I would call this underestimating the Zard because Esam doesn't think that high of him.

Zard's upB has super armor on f4-15.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Zard's upB is frame 9.
That's just not that great for an OoS option even if the hitbox goes into both directions. For reference, Zelda has an frame 6 upB and Zero called that bad.
Anyway, I think ESAM ran blindly into Charizard way too often. I would call this underestimating the Zard because Esam doesn't think that high of him.

Up Smash is frame 6, it's just as fast Zelda's but much lower risk.
Fly is Frame 9 but has armor on frame 4. It's a much riskier move but is also a good tool from escaping shield pressure situations other character's might not.

Combine that with a good shield grab range and rewarding throws and Charizard's OoS is very potent. The only thing he's missing is a fast aerial.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Zard's upB has super armor on f4-15.

eah, but the hitbox still doesn't come out that early. A well spaced aerial from a Pikachu should be able to avoid that move like he did most of the time in game 2.
Actually, I've to revise my old statement as I didn't see many OoS actions from Charizard and they did very little to nothing. However, I stay with what I said about ESAM underestimating him.

 

[ZephyrZ]

eah, but the hitbox still doesn't come out that early. A well spaced aerial from a Pikachu should be able to avoid that move like he did most of the time in game 2.
Actually, I've to revise my old statement as I didn't see many OoS actions from Charizard and they did very little to nothing. However, I stay with what I said about ESAM underestimating him.

Pikachu has a small body, good aerial drift, and fantastic frame data. Punishing him out of shield can be very difficult.

If you want a match that better showcases Charizard's OoS game, take this match between Wishes and Light.

Charizard's shield demands a ton of respect.

 

[DelugeFGC]

In fairness, Light was being pretty aggressive, at one point USmashing Zard's shield twice in a row after a taunt from Wishes. It demonstrates Zard's OoS options, yes, but I don't feel that match is a great example because Light literally just handed a lot of those punishes OoS to him on a silver platter once Wishes got in his head a little. I don't see Zard's OoS game being that big an influence on the match, same with that BAir.. Wishes only landed it consistently because he had a solid download on Light's habits that set.

Situationally speaking you can make anyone look good, Zard has low tier syndrome if anyone does due entirely to his exploitable nature in disadvantage and his lack of truly great options. Outside of clutching out a read or punishing careless aggression, Zard doesn't find himself even able to use all the kill power he has. He doesn't have good setup game, he doesn't have good combo game, he doesn't have amazing frame data or range, he doesn't have much aside situational tools. That combined with how badly he gets bodied in disadvantage.. I really don't see it.

Though I say again, that's looking at Zard as if he is a solo character and he isn't. Zard's problems are remedied immensely by the fact that he's only one piece of a greater whole and you're not locked into him.

 

[Lacrimosa]

You need to be careful of any shield in some way. But the fact that Zard has no fast aerial really doesn't help him. First is frame 11 with nAir and uSmash, while big, has huge endlag if it misses. I mean, it is dangerous but it's nothing super scary to be up against. There are far better OoS-games in this game.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I don't think Zard really needs to be a good character in terms of overall / solo viability in order to be a functional part of PT's kit. He's there for recovering in far-out situations, he's there for stock tanking when you've been hit with heavy percentages, he's there for cheesing out early kills when you've gotten the download on your opponent.. like these are all the sort of situations he excels in.

Zard is the situational savior / clutch factor of PT, and I'd say he does a pretty decent job of filling that role, aside of his issues by himself. As many problems as he has when looked at as a solo character, when looked at as a piece of the whole that is PT, I'd still say he's fine.. despite considering him low tier bait when looked at as a solo character. Zard is a special circumstance, all of the parts of PT are.

Charizard is not the character you pick on the CSS, neither are Squirtle or Ivysaur.. you pick Pokemon Trainer. As such, while I think individually ranking them can be beneficial to looking at PT as a whole, I do not think they should seriously be ranked on an individual level. The only character in the equation is PT, you're never locked into any one of the three Pokemon, and as such.. well, yeah.

 

[Rizen]

^Technically you can select any of the pokemon on the character select screen but I agree the only viability that matters is PT as a whole. I still think you guys are underrating Zard's OoS though. F4 armor is the same as Marcina's upB, although their attack starts f5, much earlier.

 

[|RK|]

Tiers are largely subjective but if you're going to put in mid tier there's no way Zard's low tier. Zard gets juggled but so does every large character and at least Zard has an extra jump and great recovery. Zard's much less vulnerable offstage than most big characters, although still vulnerable. As mentioned, Zard's OoS is one of the better ones. He also has a f4 jab which is great as a GTFO tool and a kill throw. These are tools other heavies wish they had.

I agree being part of a team covers Zard's weaknesses but it also puts him in the shadow of Ivysaur. Puppeh is one of the few trainers who works with Zard rather than brushing him aside and it works out. He held his own against ESAM's Pika, who has a notoriously good advantage state. Zard's not as weak as people think.

You could legit do that for a stock or two with any character in the game, is my point. If I could switch to Little Mac when I got a stock lead, you could see him as top tier.

You'd be able to ignore all of those weaknesses. Zard doesn't have to play neutral vs small characters the whole time. He gets to create fear or take advantage of leads when he'll be most potent.

Every single character in the game has a game state where they shine. That doesn't make them good when they show that. They need to be able to do it consistently on their own.

Zard cannot.

 

[DelugeFGC]

If you could Down-B to Ganon any time you had a lead, a download complete or needed to stock tank.. well Ganon just might be seen in a wildly different light. I'd imagine a lot of characters would lol.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Tiers are largely subjective but if you're going to put in mid tier there's no way Zard's low tier.

Ganondorf is likely still low tier, though better than in Smash 4. His flaws are rather significant still, and he has a rather unfortunate MU vs Pikachu, who might be the best character in the game, as well as some other really bad MUs.

 

[Tri Knight]

I could never place Zard on his own because hes not on his own. Like the other pokemon, hes situational. You don't use JUST him the entire match. That's like playing squirtle for stock tanking or relying on Ivysaur to recover all match.

PT is a package deal. PT has access to three characters that can each contribute to a MU and help in situations that the others can't.

Idk, I couldn't say Zard sucks because hes not ever on his own.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Okay sure arguing any of the three pokemon's solo viability is silly. Solo Squirtle can't kill, Solo Ivy has one of the worst recoveries in the game, and solo Zard is a well known meme. There's a reason no high level players are solo-maining any of the three.

But it is frustrating to me how people undersell his strengths and oversell his weaknesses, amongst a the misinformation thay gets spread. This happens whenever a character is percieved to be "bad". I'm sure many mains of low-tier, underrated or underused characters relate.

Charizard's OoS game is a something you're forced to respect more then most. Ivy's only decent OoS options are Nair/Bair, each at frame 9 and only Bair is really all that rewarding. Out of Shield, he can kill with B-throw, U-throw, Up Smash or Fly, and he has great ground mobility and grab range to make spacing more difficult in a lot of match ups. It's a serious, valuable strength that comes in handy in relevant match ups - Ivy hates being stuck in shield and characters like Fox are good at forcing that.

Zard isn't just a recovery machine and most high level PT mains are starting to realize this.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I never meant to imply he was, as I said above Zard has multiple uses within the kit of PT and fills his niches well, I was just saying if you were to rank him as a solo character.. he'd be low tier. Squirtle would be somewhere in mid and Ivy would be somewhere in the bottom of high. But that's not the case, none of them are solo, they all make up the character PT which overall I personally consider at least High Tier + on the top end.

Solo Zard is a meme for a good reason, but you're never locked into solo Zard unless you choose to do so.

 

[Tri Knight]

Solo Zard is a meme for a good reason, but you're never locked into solo Zard unless you choose to do so.

Which would only be gimping yourself. PT is truly strength in numbers. On their own they're ok, but together they're formidable. I'd even argue that Ivysaur probably wouldnt be that high on his own either. I think they'd all be decent at best if they were as they are, on their own. They all have strengths that compliment each other's weaknesses.

Now PT as the whole package is obviously amazing but I also feel like hes one of the harder characters to utilize in the game. PT mains are some of my favorite kinds of players because of that.

 

[KirbySquad101]

CEO Top 8 starts at 6 PM today; as for what it is for those who don't know...

Top 8 Winners Side:

Dabuz vs Ally
Puppeh vs MKLeo

Top 8 Losers Side:
WaDi vs Gluttony
Nairo vs Marss

A few notes:

1. Samsora's and Prodigy's losses do a really good job of reinforcing the idea that damage percentages is not the equivalent to a health bars in traditional fighting games, but stocks are. Both Prodigy and Samsora brought their foes to percentages as high as 150%, neither of them could deal the finishing blow before their opponents (WaDi, Gluttony, and Charizard) bounced back swiftly, taking them out at percentages as low as 80%, 60%, or even 40%. In that regard, I can see moves like Wario Waft, Arm Rotor, etc. being valued even more in the future, as they make for some of the most deadliest comeback tools in the entire game. Conversely, this also makes me worried for the viability of characters like and , as they don't have the same clutch factor that other characters do, aside from the off-chance you get a Bom-Bomb with, or take a stock at 30% by carrying people to heaven with Mario's UAir sheninagans. It could just be a me thing, however.

2. After what felt like an over centralization of s, s, and s in previous major USA tournaments, things are looking Japan levels of diverse: There's only one Snake in top 8, one Olimar (one that's been relegated to secondary status no less), and no Peaches at all, with Samsora just barely missing top 8. This could mean a few things:

- The nerfs to Olimar and Peach might've been greater than we have given them credit for; despite Shuton's incredible performance, Myran hasn't been able to adapt as well to Olimar's changes, placing only at 49th. That said, his enormous damage output, camping abilities, amazing grab, and aerial game are still in tact, so he'll still most likely be okay. Peach, however, is looking like she's really struggling to kill now with the nerfs to both her FAir and BThrow; FAir couldn't even kill R.O.B. at 140% by the ledge in Samsora's set with WaDi. Though NAir and BAir are solid enough KO options, she has much less choices to choose from now. She'll still most likely be really good, but her inability to take stocks as well may affect her in the long run.

- The bigger reason could be that people are either starting to push their characters further. People wouldn't have expected to see a Rosalina or PT in top 8, or heck, a Cloud or Captain Falcon in top 32, but it's definitely happening as of now. Heck, even against MKLeo, Ryuga was giving him more trouble than anyone could've imagined. This doesn't mean characters like Snake aren't bonkers, they still very much are, but given how much other players have been improving with their characters (i.e. Sonido, Sparg0, Prodigy, etc.), I think it can be assumed that the playing field has been evened out a little bit.

- Lastly, this could be a product of CEO's decision to go Bo3 for every set that's not a Finals set. Given that you're only going through 3 games instead of 5, it gives the player much less time to adapt and catch on to the other player's habits. This means that the ability to adapt quickly and effectively is a much more valuable key asset than in previous major tournaments, which I think is why Puppeh has been doing such a good job lately. It really makes me believe that his battle against MKLeo may even end up in the latter possibly getting upsetted.

This is just a rough page of thoughts. Rooting for WaDi and Puppeh both X3

EDIT: Welp, RiP WaDi; also there goes my prediction of Puppeh against MKLeo.

 

[PK Gaming]

Joker is looking like a definitive Snake counter in the current metagame

-Rebel's Guard punish grenades
-Joker can mix up his recovery to avoid Nikita
-Punishes Snake like crazy; Joker's combos are damaging but they're very effective vs Snake
-Arsene!Uair is extremely punishing vs Snake's Up B (not to mention he can go in deep for an edgeguard)
-Joker can weave through Snake's projectile wall fairly easy and has a fast grab

Investing in a Joker secondary will become more and more valuable imo

 

[Idon]

Jesus H Christ a Captain Falcon in the grand finals of a major, and a counterpick against Leo's Joker of all characters.

JESUS H CHRIST, SECOND GAME LEO DROPPED TOO.

Well it was fun while it lasted... Still though, that was an unbelievable showing from Marss.

 

[Rizen]

Jesus H Christ a Captain Falcon in the grand finals of a major, and a counterpick against Leo's Joker of all characters.

JESUS H CHRIST, FIRST GAME LEO DROPPED TOO.

Protobanham took a game off Leo.

 

[$.A.F.]

Protobanham took a game off Leo.

I thought someone else did too

 

[DelugeFGC]

And today, I became a Marss fan.

That Falcon Kick..

Fatality's performance wasn't the greatest, but overall I felt it was pretty good for using a character he's no where (none of us CF mains are, and he's the best) near done optimizing yet.. and combined with Marss doing pretty alright against a very meta relevant character I'd say it's the beginnings of a better case that post-buff, optimized CF isn't a mid tier.

But I'll let my bias settle for now.

 

[|RK|]

And today, I became a Marss fan.

That Falcon Kick..

Fatality's performance wasn't the greatest, but overall I felt it was pretty good for using a character he's no where (none of us CF mains are, and he's the best) near done optimizing yet.. and combined with Marss doing pretty alright against a very meta relevant character I'd say it's the beginnings of a better case that post-buff, optimized CF isn't a mid tier.

But I'll let my bias settle for now.

A showing vs one character doesn't make a char not mid tier. I'd put WAY more stock into Fatality's runs than Marss's two games so far.

 

[DelugeFGC]

A showing vs one character doesn't make a char not mid tier. I'd put WAY more stock into Fatality's runs than Marss's two games so far.

It was a joke, I'm well aware. I was just being giddy lol.

If it were Fatality piloting Cap, I feel that set could've gone another way. Man works him.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So does anyone think can potentially be top tier? Many pro players seem to think that according to their own recent tier lists.

Sure Marss is the only pro player rep getting consistent results at big majors but you can also make a similar argument for many other characters considered top-tier.

I.e Light for , Cosmos for even Void for pre 3.1.0 patch

 

[Kiligar]

Marss better not complain about ZSS “being bad”. That character is absolutely obnoxious to fight and has all sorts of cheese. I keep on getting to Sudden Death on Quickplay by ZSS Down B on battlefield. Seriously though, ZSS is good. I can’t wait to see how the Hero patch changes the meta, I hope the Hero isn’t broken but that trailer makes me a little worried.

 

[PK Gaming]

So does anyone think can potentially be top tier? Many pro players seem to think that according to their own recent tier lists.

No question

It shouldn't even be up for debate at this point

 

[DelugeFGC]

I don't know if I'm ready to call a bona fide top tier yet, but she certainly has all the right variables in her favor to be considered in the running for the top spots. She's certainly a far cry from where she was placed in the early-meta, that's for sure.

That UTilt is insane, I hear ZSS players say the move isn't that good a lot but man that thing stuffs out jump ins like no tomorrow, even when you try to carefully space yourself the massive hitbox that thing has (proportionate to its animation at least, idk, it feels bigger than it looks) always clips you. As a CF main, she makes landing some of my NAir 1 and NAir 2 setups a pain with that move alone and it has decent frame data to just throw out on reaction.

I can't say much about her beyond that as I don't have a ton of experience against her, but her combo game is pretty strong when her player executes right (as is such with my main, so I approve lmfao) and she has the ability to play a very lame, safe / keepaway neutral when she's down to get the match going in her favor again. I can't see her lower than High Tier + at absolute worst. Her setups are so stylish too.. and Flip Kick is.. lol, Flip Kick.

 

[Iridium]

So does anyone think can potentially be top tier? Many pro players seem to think that according to thier own lists.

Sure Marss is the only pro player rep getting consistent results at big majors but you can also say the same thing about many other top-tier characters.

ZSS really only got noticeably nerfed in terms of down throw follow-ups and her ability to consistently string hits off of it, but it doesn't even hurt her too much. She still has very quick mobility that is further aided by the game's mechanics (such as an actually useful dash-dance), her juggling game is even more potent with the way airdodges can be punished. Plasma Whip now kills at reliable percents, Paralyzer has more use in neutral against a majority of the cast, and Boost Kick still kills just as early as before on the ground. You can argue her edgeguarding abilities are some of the best in the game, with Flip Jump allowing for deep offstage pressure, given how far it travels.

However, down throw is not as effective for combos as it used to be at higher percents, and most of her aerials were weakened in terms of range, power and speed, even if not the most significant. It does seem a little apparent her kill power is inconsistent when I see players like Marss sometimes struggle to finish stocks when he doesn't go for Boost Kick or his usual edgeguards, often needing down smash reads to continue with anything. These weaknesses don't appear to show up enough to honestly mean a lot, though.

Japan looks like it has an affinity for ZSS, from what I've seen. Choco, Yamanyon, shky and Kuro are all active as notable ZSS mains over there. Juice and king_chris have also proven their worth at past and recent majors over here. I want to say Nairo too, but he only seems to use her as a counterpick, although he has beaten players like Light with her.

Her playerbase hasn't had a huge liftoff like what we see with Snake right now, but the same could be argued for Joker. She does require a degree of precision when it comes to landing her hitboxes on opponents while utilizing an aware punish game, so she plays a lot like a high risk, high reward type of character. I can see her making a case for top tier, but we can wait and see how she stands with the changing meta. If anything, she just plays a bit different, but she's not worse at all, and Marss shows it. No worse than upper high tier to me.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So does anyone think can potentially be top tier?

I prefer to focus more on characters' matchup spreads than results, and based on what the top ZSS think about the ZSS matchup chart and the fact that very few notable top tier mains think ZSS beats or even goes even with their character, I'd say she's not top tier. Inkling and Pikachu seem really troublesome for her, and those are arguably both top 3 characters. She didn't seem to love pre-patch Olimar either.

Pichu is likely a problem still, Fox might be too. Her results are good but not amazing (currently #16 on OrionStats, CEO not yet included), so I think it could be more of a case of Marss being really skilled with a high tier character.

I.e Light for , Cosmos for even Void for pre 3.1.0 patch

Those aren't even true though, both ZD and Larry Lurr got some results with Fox (potentially someone else that I'm forgetting as well), Abadango and Space (well, some, he's done fairly well vs some of the best Dutch players at least) with Inkling, and Captain L (before he switched), NAKAT, Yetey (in Europe, beating Larry Lurr and Peli), Tachyon, and Nientono, probably others as well.

A lot of the time you won't see many representatives of characters at majors though, so major results only count for so much. Diddy Kong would have been top 5 in Smash 4 even if ZeRo never competed, though his results would've been much, much worse.

 

[blackghost]

i really like the direction this game is headed. not only character diversity but there was another underline message being shown in CEO: just relying on a characters fundamentals will not be enough to win, you need to invest time in a single character to learn the ins and outs even if that character is seen as flawed. In the top 16 between winners and losers, 13 of the 16 players used one character. When we talk about this game needing more than one character to compete i think that position is not as sound as some may think. number o fcharacters in a game doesnt mean you have to play more than one. Like others have said snake has iffy match ups but all his iffy MUs aren't bracket common and honestly never will be game and watch and issabelle aren't going to suddenly become popular.

next thing im 100 percent out on shulk. its literally been two games he's shown me nothing of note against high level competition too much theory craft and its not shown in actual matches. if shulk had a TAS bot playing him it may be different but under human control, he's not elite.

Zack just needs drop bayo at large events he loves her but she's not good enough to win anything against good players.

 

[PK Gaming]

People tend to focus on the obvious when discussing ZSS (her specials), but her attributes are often overlooked imo. Top class movement, with the best initial dash speed in the game (that's further complemented with her incredible dash), very high air speed+good acceleration, absurdly good jumps and flip kick. I can't think of another character in this game who has such a high number of valuable traits on a single character.

She can effortlessly weave in and out and is very good at both running away (something more people should do imo) and punishing opponents. Outright hitting is her is difficult for the reasons listed as well. And then there's the obvious; boost kick is an extremely powerful UpB out of shield/punisher/yolo option, she has kill setups to boot and she's a frame trap queen.

Of course, she has some things that ultimately hold her back, like her grab and matchup vs "sword" characters (a nebulous, thought-terminating term I dislike, but her record vs them isn't great). Even if Marss has found a way to make good use out of it. But the character definitely has potential and I think people (at least in the West, Japan already knows) are finally coming around to her.

I prefer to focus more on characters' matchup spreads than results, and based on what the top ZSS think about the ZSS matchup chart and the fact that very few notable top tier mains think ZSS beats or even goes even with their character, I'd say she's not top tier. Inkling and Pikachu seem really troublesome for her, and those are arguably both top 3 characters.

She has favorable, potentially winning matchups against the likes of Palutena, Snake and Olimar. These are extremely good pickups in the current metagame. She can also play her way out of bad matchup due to her extreme offensive potential.

She didn't seem to love pre-patch Olimar either.

The vast majority of the cast didn't either.

 

[Lore]

People tend to focus on the obvious when discussing ZSS (her specials), but her attributes are often overlooked imo. Top class movement, with the best initial dash speed in the game (that's further complemented with her incredible dash), very high air speed+good acceleration, absurdly good jumps and flip kick. I can't think of another character in this game who has such a high number of valuable traits on a single character.

She can effortlessly weave in and out and is very good at both running away (something more people should do imo) and punishing opponents. Outright hitting is her is difficult for the reasons listed as well. And then there's the obvious; boost kick is an extremely powerful UpB out of shield/punisher/yolo option, she has kill setups to boot and she's a frame trap queen.

Of course, she has some things that ultimately hold her back, like her grab and matchup vs "sword" characters (a nebulous, thought-terminating term I dislike, but her record vs them isn't great). Even if Marss has found a way to make good use out of it. But the character definitely has potential and I think people (at least in the West, Japan already knows) are finally coming around to her.



She has favorable, potentially winning matchups against the likes of Palutena, Snake and Olimar. These are extremely good pickups in the current metagame. She can also play her way out of bad matchup due to her extreme offensive potential.



The vast majority of the cast didn't either.

Yeah, ZSS's movement is insane. I played against a camping/defensive ZSS online recently, and it was hell. I just kept getting danced around and avoided.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I guess we can bet on nerfs for Joker and ZSS. Don't know how. Joker is a bit more obvious as it will have something to do with Arsene and ZSS is so good to get out of disadvantage and on top of that she's nearly as fast as Roy who I already kinda hate to fight against.
But we'll see. Maybe we get more K. Rool nerfs .

 

[Nekoo]

I guess we can bet on nerfs for Joker and ZSS. Don't know how. Joker is a bit more obvious as it will have something to do with Arsene

The best way to nerf Joker/Arsene, without making it undertuned in my opinion would be the following:
>Rebel's Guard gauge filling decreased
>General Speed of gauge filling on hit without Rebel's guard decreased
>Arsene B-air slight hitbox reduction
>Tetrakarn slight Hitbox reduction


And otherwise, it should be fine, people who want an Arsene gauge reduction don't realize that it would just make the character undertuned in 2v2/FFA, (which are modes that are probably in mind when balancing the game) as Arsene would barely appears with how the Gauge empty itself in the Chaos of those modes.
And there also the set of vs where you could see that, the moment Arsene appeared, Olimar managed to keep a constant agression and Damage output with the Pikmin made Arsene barely make a Cameo in those matches

 

[SwagGuy99]

So does anyone think can potentially be top tier? Many pro players seem to think that according to their own recent tier lists.

Are people still questioning this? is definitely Top Tier and (IMO) seems kind of like a jack-of-all-trades type character (kind of like ).

• She's fast, has a high jump height, the best initial dash in the game, and a good recovery.
• She has a good OOS Option in Up-B.
• She has decent range on some attacks such as Side-B and Up-Smash.
• She has good anti-air tools.
• She has a good projectile (Neutral-B).
• She has good juggling options and combos.

Her biggest weaknesses at the moment are that she's very susceptible to combos because of her height and fall speed (which combined with her weight means she dies early), she has trouble hitting short characters, and that she sometimes will get outranged by characters with long range/big disjointed hitboxes. And while this seems like some pretty major weaknesses, possessed a lot of the same weaknesses and he was being considered a Top 3 character by a lot of people near the end of Smash 4's lifespan.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Debating the viability of any individual PT Pokemon is, to me, a pretty not useful discussion. Discussing the strengths/weaknesses of each is very different, but it has to come with an acknowledgement that they are all an individual piece that forms the character. What does this make Charizard, then? It makes him a part of a good character, so yes I think he's good in that sense, and I will probably stick to this definition because the character was meant to be explored in tandem with 2 other characters.

I do think Zard's implementation into PT's gameplan by top level players is fascinating, though, and I believe it serves to further bolster the point: you do need to actually use all 3 of them. It is impossible to assess them on their own without caveats, so I don't think we should! Assess them as a 3 monster unit and things make more sense.

On the topic of ZSS, I absolutely know for certain we're going to be seeing a lot more Zair usage (its incredibly good on block and an amazing air to air) and a lot more hit and run, because as it turns out she is still absolutely phenomenal at both of those things, and Flip Jump and being able to escape bad situations as a strength matters EVEN MORE here because of how niche that is as an ability in this game. I think she has an incredible amount of potential to grow even further than she has already. She also has one of the best spotdodge attack cancel tricks in the game as well (doing this into jab is very, VERY hard to punish without anticipating it and blocking the jab) and just.....man. Such a good character!