COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[zxeon]

I kind of like the way the hitlag works right now (aside from the Lucas 40% Dsmash madness and the like). It helps to offset the really hard hitting moves so that you can catch up to your target.

 

[Alopex]

Do you really think hitlag is the problem? I mean wouldn't it affect all moves so then you would adjust the added frames and things would be fine? Does it lock without the hitlag codes?

I'm going by what Magus said, since Magus tends to be... always right...

Here:

For the Fox's lasers thing on shield, you have to consider hitlag as well as shieldstun in this case. Since the lasers are projectiles Fox does not go into hitlag himself when they hit, so the hitlag has the same effect here as the shieldstun for trapping them in their shield.

His lasers repeat every 10 frames, so if they were to stay in place they would be trapped in shield if the hitlag + shieldstun >= 10. Since they get some pushback from them, to consistently trap them it's probably hitlag + shieldstun >= 11.

Hitlag on Fox's lasers?

Yes, they have hitlag when they are blocked. Well, they did this before anyway. If they actually don't anymore and a 3 damage hit is doing about 10-11 or more frames of shieldstun you guys are waaaaaaaay off base with the values you're using on the code, lol.

So there you have it. Projectiles never cause hitlag on the attacker, but they do cause it on the person being attacked.

What Brawl's large hitlag is doing is compounding itself with the shieldstun, increasing the shieldstun duration while not creating equal hitlag on the attacker, allowing him to attack before the hitlag+shieldstun on the attacked is up.
Fox's laser happens to be the only one that can take advantage of that since it reshoots every 10 frames.

So when the hitlag code is fixed and hitlag on the attacked is reduced, then Fox's lasers will cause less hitlag and thus, when hitting a shield, will cause less compounded shieldstun.

So the fix should alleviate this problem well enough.


It locks without the hitlag code because Brawl's hitlag is huge, but projectiles only give it to the attacked.

The hitlag code isn't causing the problem, no. The hitlag code is what will FIX the problem, since a hitlag reduction on the attacked is all that is needed to fix the problem.

It's just that the current hitlag code, as you said, isn't reducing hitlag on the attacked.

 

[kupo15]

Alopex

Wow. So when we get that fix, the current shield stun values will definitely change

 

[Alopex]

Perhaps not. I mean, I wasn't testing my values with the hitlag code on, so for all my values you have hitlag equally affecting both characters.
Because non-projectiles cause hitlag to both characters on block, when the hitlag code is fixed, that is exactly what will keep happening.
But the proportion will be the same, so the end result will be the same. It'll just all happen faster.

The only reason projectiles are an exception is because they only cause hitlag to the attacked. Once the fixed hitlag code reduces hitlag to both attacker and attacker, the projectiles will cause less hitlag on the attacked, and thus the problem will be fixed without needing to re-tweak with the values.

Of course, when the hitlag code is fixed I'll definitely test all that out to make sure it holds true.

 

[cAm8ooo]

well i agree with the majoirty thank god i can use whatever i want because the hitstun9 is only good with the fast chars or more combo-y ones... everyone eles is **** in the ***

Kirby is not fast and he combos just fine

 

[GPDP]

I'll say, the one thing I kinda miss from Melee is the ability to edgehog by rolling onto the stage from the ledge. I know, it was kinda cheap, but even now I keep doing it, hoping that my opponent won't be able to grab the ledge.

 

[petre]

I'll say, the one thing I kinda miss from Melee is the ability to edgehog by rolling onto the stage from the ledge. I know, it was kinda cheap, but even now I keep doing it, hoping that my opponent won't be able to grab the ledge.

well with no ASL it will be easier to edgehog someone, i don't think we need to add more time to when the game marks you as being on the ledge. just learn to time your invicibility frames from grabbing the edge better.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I'll say, the one thing I kinda miss from Melee is the ability to edgehog by rolling onto the stage from the ledge. I know, it was kinda cheap, but even now I keep doing it, hoping that my opponent won't be able to grab the ledge.

When your over 100% it takes longer for your character to get on the ledge and you get longer invincibility frames. Not quite the same tho lol

 

[wazgood]

just stand at the edge and dtilt. it works really well lol

 

[BEES]

i have always wondered y a person would like vanilla brawl over brawl+, its just so dumbfounding really.
most of the people who rag on brawl+ havent even tried it and yet most of them complain that vanilla brawl is too slow and combo worthless. hypocrites.

/rant *deep breath*

The biggest opposition to brawl+ is melee players who want competitive brawl to fail.

 

[SketchHurricane]

The texture project is actually really exciting. There's too many cool texture ideas for that to go un-attempted.

Back on topic, I think the buffer code glitches should still be looked into. At 1 buffer, Bowser loses the infinite jump. I'm sure any Bowser mains would be appalled to see that go. I'll do some testing to see where at which point it can feasibly be done, and hopefully it re-appears around 3 at least.

 

[BEES]

It just hit me. Nobody ever thought of this did they?

The glitch that causes characters to fall through the platform when they're 90% above it after their up+B. That doesn't NEED fixing, but it would be nice.

 

[Alopex]

Wait, Sketch, are you certain that's a glitch and not a consequence of the reduced buffer window?

Many characters can infinite jump, so if Bowser is the only one that lost his, then it would indeed be a glitch.
Have you tested the other characters to see if their infinite jumps are still doable?

It's hard to tell what is a glitch and what is just not inputtable with the buffer reduction. The only thing we can be certain is a glitch is the loss of infinite aerials on 0 buffer, since Melee had 0 buffer AND instant aerials.


EDIT:

Huh... here's a question:

How does the hitlag code affect Marth and Ike's Stun Jacket?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201884

 

[izzy24]

So here is an important thing I think we all need to do, and that is to come to a general consensus on codesets and values while we wait on the last few codes. How do you think would be the best way to approach this? I think most everyone has the same feelings on the following codes:

Pretty Non-Disputed:
No Trip
Infinite Replay
Auto L-Canc
Hitstun (final value ~9%)
Shield Stun (11/22/5 currently, might go to 13/22/5)
Lagless Edges
No ASL
Buffer 0 or 1?
Dash Dancing
Hitlag 50% or 60%
No Stale Moves

Disputed:
Downwards Gravity 1.1-1.25, which is best? (I personally like 1.15)
Dash Speed 1.1-1.2, which is best? (I personally like 1.1)
Short Hop Height
Fastfall Speed
Upwards Grav?

Wat's wrong with the crouch cancel code, with dd it creates a much better ground control and options. Is the only reason ppl don't like b/c it LOOKS like wavedashing!?

 

[Shell]

I can still infinite Koopa Klaw at 1 buffer. Is that the same thing, or not?

 

[SketchHurricane]

Wait, Sketch, are you certain that's a glitch and not a consequence of the reduced buffer window?

Sorry for my wording. What I meant was due to the buffering window being so low, Bowser's infinite jump with side-b becomes too hard. By fixing the glitches, I was talking about the glitches that cause everyone to stay at 1 or below anyway (you know, the repeating action thing). If that glitch is fixed, we can start reliably playing with slightly higher buffer windows (come to think of it, I've messed with a few windows and haven't come across that bug).

As for Bowser, at 1 buffer I can only get the initial jump of the infinite, never the second. You basically have to tap jump rapidly and hope that you hit the window. Surprisingly, at 2 it becomes viable again! By simply double tapping the jump button around the required timing, I was able to do it fairly consistently, though not 100%. Trying for a single tap is extremely hard, and I wasn't able to do it like that. Not bad, considering the tech was stupidly easy at default buffering. At any rate, I still think a buffer window of 3 is ideal for making techs like this and thunderstorming viable.

I can still infinite Koopa Klaw at 1 buffer. Is that the same thing, or not?

Yeah, same thing. It's definitely possible at 1, but not enough to be reliable IMO. It was pretty much a toss up for me at 1 considering I had to mash for it. Can well can you do it at 1?

 

[matt4300]

>_>' huh? buff sonics B .... i thought we werent going to mess with movesets... if so we should do something with a char that sucks not sonic....

 

[Dark Sonic]

>_>' huh? buff sonics B .... i thought we werent going to mess with movesets... if so we should do something with a char that sucks not sonic....

You're way behind, but yeah, we're not going to get into movesets for now.

That, and everyone has finally acknowledged that Sonic doesn't need any help (and I found a nice little infinite for him if we decide not to ban jab locks.)

HA would be ridiculous if it was faster though. It's got the greatest trajectory for killing, it's tracking range is ridiculous (and easy to hit with if you know how it works), but if you could just combo into it from an aerial (all of which have decent hitstun), it'd be broken for edgeguards.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Actually, after a few more minutes of practice, I can actually do the infinite Koopa Claw it at 1 buffer fairly consistently. I forgot that it works a bit differently than regular ISJRs. You're basically piggy backing the side-b window to get the jump to come out, so by using side-b a lot closer to the ground and quickly sliding to jump, I was able to do it consistently. Is this how you are doing it, SHeLL?

The main difference is, the side-b part of it becomes less unusable as an actual attack. At default, the side-b can come out way earlier, and thus actually grab the opponent during the infinite jumps, near the landing. At 1, you have to do the side-b so close to the ground that the grab box doesn't come out. You can still use the infinite jumps for aerials, but if you want to go for the grab, your jumps will end as a result.

Not really a big deal for me. The grab's already broken on it's own IMO, and the infinite Koopa Claw is still usable with aerials. We'll see how Bleak feels though (X-Bowser main).


@Dark Sonic
Got any vids? I could try myself, but I don't wanna steal your shine

 

[Alopex]

and I found a nice little infinite for him if we decide not to ban jab locks.

If we don't just fix the jab/laser/icicle locks altogether as we ideally should...

 

[shanus]

SO i just played for a while with a skilled player again, thank god! It was too fun, expect vids later today. BTW, falcon vs ness is too fun.

 

[Zilactic]

you know call me crazy but... i was messing with values and i happened to try out 1.5 down gravity

no upward gravity
1.1 FF
9.5 SH
1.17 DD

and i loved it. everything seemed so much faster and i far as i can tell there is no significant nerf to anyone.

can someone else try this out and call me crazy? hahaha

 

[Team Giza]

One word Zilactic... WHORNADO.

 

[Zilactic]

One word Zilactic... WHORNADO.

*sigh* you're right. hahaah
its a guilty pleasure i guess

 

[CyberGlitch]

So here is an important thing I think we all need to do, and that is to come to a general consensus on codesets and values while we wait on the last few codes. How do you think would be the best way to approach this? I think most everyone has the same feelings on the following codes:

Pretty Non-Disputed:
No Trip
Infinite Replay
Auto L-Canc
Hitstun (final value ~9%)
Shield Stun (11/22/5 currently, might go to 13/22/5)
Lagless Edges
No ASL
Buffer 0 or 1?
Dash Dancing
Hitlag 50% or 60%
No Stale Moves

Disputed:
Downwards Gravity 1.1-1.25, which is best? (I personally like 1.15)
Dash Speed 1.1-1.2, which is best? (I personally like 1.1)
Short Hop Height
Fastfall Speed
Upwards Grav?

Hitstun - 9.5%: I don't know if anyone has found any balance breaking combos at this percent but I'm liking it a lot. There can be values between 9 and 10% you know ;-)

No ASL - I'm still not convinced this is best for Brawl+. I'm not sure if it helps balance the characters at all, or makes them worse. This code is also a turn off for many who'd be interested in Brawl+. If you want one big reason why a surprising number of people disaprove of this project, this is one of them.

Buffer - 1, I never have crouching issues while shuffling, and I like instant aerials and at least a moment of buffer. I may support 3 frames if the code is fixed to eliminate 3 frame glitches.

I'm not for No Stale Moves, I think a stale move system should be in effect, just much reduced in its potentcy. I'm finding 1/2 stale moves works well.


Downward gravity - I use 1.1, though I'd probably be fine with 1.15 as well.
Dash speed - 1.15 (not too overpowered, but speeds everyone up, good fun)
Short Hop Height - currently .9, .95 in a little too high for many aerial attacks to be useful. Some value between .9 and .95 may be best.
Fastfall speed - currently 1.1 but 1.15 could also work fine.
Upwards grav - no mod, it changes full jump heights which alters gameplay flow in levels. Increase nerfs recoveries (worse character balance).


Another thing we should be able to think about now, given the expanded codeset, is do we ban Metaknight? From my experiences playing as him he's an unholy beast, and needs the banhammer. My custom CSS eliminates him.

 

[Alopex]

Another thing we should be able to think about now, given the expanded codeset, is do we ban Metaknight? From my experiences playing as him he's an unholy beast, and needs the banhammer. My custom CSS eliminates him.

Hold your horses, we're not done yet.

When all codes are out, and after there's been a lot of human playtesting with a decided standard, only then will character balance be accurate.

If Meta Knight is still a problem then, it's still very likely that Brawl+ will add in some character fixes.

 

[Deleted member]

it's easy to reduce knockback on Dsmash I think but I'm not sure

 

[Alopex]

We'd have to reduce it on his UpB as well.

Essentially, just reduce the knockback of all his current KO moves (UpB, Dsmash, Nair) and make gimping his only reliable form of KO since he's still the absolute best at doing that.


EDIT:

I would like to comment on the No ASL code. I've just now used it for the first time and I have some things on my mind.

1) It worked perfectly for both Ness and Lucas even though the OP says it doesn't. Am I lucky or is that outdated?
2) It did not work for Lucario. This is as the OP stated. I've no problem with this, though, since Lucario is easily gimped due to having no hitbox on his UpB.
3) I had no issues whatsoever with Wolf. What glitches was the OP talking about? You weren't referring to this http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ4o_uy74mg were you? Cause that's well-known to happen in Vanilla...

As you can see, the above are praises. It works perfectly for the above 3 and I like that it doesn't work on Lucario.

Here's what I DON'T like:

4) Diddy's recovery is WRECKED. Not nerfed, wrecked. The OP says you might need to aim better? No, that doesn't solve it. I went straight into the edge and I just blew up. With the No ASL code one, Diddy will only grab the ledge when he is in freefall animation. So long as he is being propelled by the jetpack, he will not grab the edge. I can't tell you how many times I tested this out, going straight into the ledge only to explode. I only ever managed to grab the ledge when I was freefalling. This isn't just me is it?

That needs to be fixed somehow and I don't think that getting rid of the explosion will take care of it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Dark Sonic
Got any vids? I could try myself, but I don't wanna steal your shine

I'll make a video of it or something. It's pretty cool.

If you want to try it now, it's basically start a Jablock (doesn't matter how you get them there, I have a few setups though), and do a pivot jab before you reach the end of the stage. Sonic's dash dance is long enough and fast enough that he can actually dash past them and hit them on the other side with the pivot jab while still maintaining the jablock!!

It's easiest to do on small characters like Fox and Jigglypuff, since he doesn't have to dash that far. So far I haven't found anyone that he can't do it to, the timing is just pretty strict on the really big characters (like DDD). Note, Zelda is really really short when she's lying on the ground, so I wouldn't suggest practicing the actual infinite method on her (practicing getting the pivot jab at the right distance), but I would suggest using her to practice the timing (making sure the jab lock still locks).

I can send you a few replays that I've made if you want. I want to practice it some more before I make any official looking tutorials on it, so that you don't have to watch me mess up all over the place in the video. Just P.M me your friend code. Mine is 0301-9641-8431

 

[Revven]

The texture project is actually really exciting. There's too many cool texture ideas for that to go un-attempted.

Back on topic, I think the buffer code glitches should still be looked into. At 1 buffer, Bowser loses the infinite jump. I'm sure any Bowser mains would be appalled to see that go. I'll do some testing to see where at which point it can feasibly be done, and hopefully it re-appears around 3 at least.

I don't think this is a glitch, it's just a smaller input window to do the inf. koopa klaw. In vanilla Brawl, you have to input the fB before you begin to land, the 10 seconds of buffer allows you to do that. When it's 1 buffer, it's a smaller frame window and thus, is made harder to do but, not much harder.

I really don't think ANY of the buffering "glitches" you guys are talking about ARE glitches. I think it's just you guys not getting used to the new frame input, buffering changes a LOT of things, especially Wario's Dthrow chaingrab on Gdorf and DK (because you have to buffer his turn around). If you want to try something on different buffer settings, I'd try Wario's chaingrab on Gdorf or DK and see if you can still do it the same way (inputting the action before the grab animation ends) which, I doubt you can. That doesn't mean it's a glitch, that just means it's harder to time and takes a little more skill to do.

That's what we want, right?

 

[Alopex]

I really don't think ANY of the buffering "glitches" you guys are talking about ARE glitches.

The instant aerials have been tested over and over at 1/4 speed with 0 buffer and they are confirmed to not work. Since Melee had 0 buffer and still had instant aerials, this can only be a glitch in Brawl+.

Not one person has come in here and said they've pulled off an instant aerial with 0 buffer. It's the main reason why 1 buffer is the most common standard - instant aerials still work there.

 

[Revven]

The instant aerials have been tested over and over at 1/4 speed with 0 buffer and they are confirmed to not work. Since Melee had 0 buffer and still had instant aerials, this can only be a glitch in Brawl+.

Not one person has come in here and said they've pulled off an instant aerial with 0 buffer. It's the main reason why 1 buffer is the most common standard - instant aerials still work there.

I wasn't talking about 0 buffer, I was talking about the other buffering frames, the ones people say have "glitches" but, don't appear often enough or have even been mentioned again at all. 3 buffer for example, people said many pages ago there were "glitches" with that, yet, I haven't seen anyone else trying it and playing with it for a few hours to confirm any of those "glitches".

I know about the 0 buffer thing, that's the only buffer glitch that should even be thought of to fix.

 

[leafgreen386]

I wasn't talking about 0 buffer, I was talking about the other buffering frames, the ones people say have "glitches" but, don't appear often enough or have even been mentioned again at all. 3 buffer for example, people said many pages ago there were "glitches" with that, yet, I haven't seen anyone else trying it and playing with it for a few hours to confirm any of those "glitches".

I know about the 0 buffer thing, that's the only buffer glitch that should even be thought of to fix.

Several people confirmed those glitches. No one is going back to test them as they have already been confirmed.

 

[Me_Aludes]

So here is an important thing I think we all need to do, and that is to come to a general consensus on codesets and values while we wait on the last few codes. How do you think would be the best way to approach this? I think most everyone has the same feelings on the following codes:

Pretty Non-Disputed:
No Stale Moves

Since when is the no stale moves a non-disputed code? Most of the people, like me, like the fact that you are rewarded when you mix between your moves and don't just spam them in your opponent's face. I don't want a game when chars like Snake, MK or G&W can spam their finishers all day.
It adds depth, diversity and is no way bad or broken.

 

[shanus]

Since when is the no stale moves a non-disputed code? Most of the people, like me, like the fact that you are rewarded when you mix between your moves and don't just spam them in your opponent's face. I don't want a game when chars like Snake, MK or G&W can spam their finishers all day.
It adds depth, diversity and is no way bad or broken.

We had a decent length discussion about it earlier on actually. Unless we can find a stale moves system to decay damage and not knockback I dont think we plan on changing it?

I could be wrong though.

 

[shanus]

Wat's wrong with the crouch cancel code, with dd it creates a much better ground control and options. Is the only reason ppl don't like b/c it LOOKS like wavedashing!?

Nothings wrong witht he CC code, I just forgot to list it!

 

[shanus]

So here is an important thing I think we all need to do, and that is to come to a general consensus on codesets and values while we wait on the last few codes. How do you think would be the best way to approach this? I think most everyone has the same feelings on the following codes:

Pretty Non-Disputed:
No Trip
Infinite Replay
Auto L-Canc
Hitstun (final value ~9%)
Shield Stun (11/22/5 currently, might go to 13/22/5)
Lagless Edges
No ASL
Buffer 0 or 1?
Dash Dancing
Hitlag 50% or 60%
No Stale Moves

Disputed:
Downwards Gravity 1.1-1.25, which is best? (I personally like 1.15)
Dash Speed 1.1-1.2, which is best? (I personally like 1.1)
Short Hop Height
Fastfall Speed
Upwards Grav?

Quoting myself just to keep the discussion going.

 

[leafgreen386]

We had a decent length discussion about it earlier on actually. Unless we can find a stale moves system to decay damage and not knockback I dont think we plan on changing it?

I could be wrong though.

Wait, what? I thought we were still up in the air about whether we'd just be weakening the stale moves system or if we were going to just remove it completely. Personally, I think the ideal solution (if making stale moves only apply to damage is not possible) is a +.05 bonus for fresh moves and no penalty for non-fresh moves. You shouldn't be punished for using your moves, but it almost feels wrong to completely take away the whole mindset of "fresh moves kill easier."

 

[Dark Sonic]

What's the latest shieldstun code and values that people are testing right now (can I get it in code form so I could just copy paste it please)? Which one was it that made Fox's lasers lock shields ( I want that one please)

 

[leafgreen386]

What's the latest shieldstun code and values that people are testing right now (can I get it in code form so I could just copy paste it please)? Which one was it that made Fox's lasers lock shields ( I want that one please)

I don't think this is the one you're looking for, but this is the 11/22/5 version posted earlier back:

Shieldstun vers2 - 11/22/5
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 809F007C
A0840006 2C04001A
41820014 1F9C000B
3B9C0016 38800005
7F9C23D6 00000000
C277F78C 00000003
2C1C001D 41820008
B39E0006 2C1CFFFF
60000000 00000000