COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Alopex]

I know this was directed at me but I have done a bit of playing in it and I don't like it much at all. Though it does help with a lot of the weaker moves by quite a bit I don't feel its doing enough for the stronger moves. So I've started playing a few games at 13/22/5 and I like it quite a bit more.

I agree Giza, I was uderwhelemed with the 11/22/5 shield stun code. It's just not doing enough for stronger attacks in my opinion. Mind posting your shield stun code Giza?

It would be great if you guys could tell me exactly which strong attacks weren't optimal for you.

Some strong aerials will never be safe, because they are just too long lasting or just have too much lag. Examples of this are Falcon's Knee and G&W's Box.


I tested the 13/22/5 value and overall is does feel good, with one glaring problem:

At 13/22/5, Fox's 2% Lasers shieldlock for a lot longer, meaning they shieldlock from a much larger range.

That's not good at all. In 11/22/5, the Lasers only shieldlock up to the midrange. After that, they stopped because the Lasers didn't cause enough damage to make a strong enough shieldstun.
At 13/22/5, the range was considerably higher. That's a problem because at that range, you shouldn't be worried about shielding a projectile. The 11/22/5 lock range was at the point where you wouldn't be shielding the lasers, you'd be close enough to just be charging in.

So tell me what strong attacks you guys had most problems with so I can look at them specifically, because 13/22/5 didn't feel that much different from 11/22/5 to justify the brokenness that Fox's lasers become with a 13 multiplier.

EDIT: While I await your responses, I'll go test 12/22/5 and see if that works as a compromise.

EDIT 2: All my previous testing has shown that the hitstun of Fox's Lasers scales far more with the multiplier than with the additive. It's counter-intuitive since it's such a weak hit, but that's what happens. So, alternatively, if 12 proves to still be too much for the lasers, we could leave the multiplier at 11 and work only with the additive until we find a suitable value for stronger attacks.
Strong attacks also tend to scale better with the multiplier, but they'd still be affected by the additive, and the 11/22/5 didn't feel like strong attacks needed that much of a boost, so I don't think we'll need to increase the additive by that much to achieve desired results.

I would love to test all that out, so I just need you guys tell me the moves that I should be on the lookout for when I do all that testing before I begin.

 

[Team Giza]

>.> oh well... I actually like Fox's lasers locking people in their shields a bit. I really don't have any specific example of moves I want to be safe, but more I want very strong moves are can end quick when used right to give a bit more frame advantage. Thus giving Ike the ability to jab right after his fair hits a shield and giving Ganondorf a better position after thunderstorming a shield. Also I wish Wario's dair to give people slightly more shieldstun >.> *bite bite*.

 

[kupo15]

Good news! It is confirmed that the hitlag code does not affect the attacked player at all! Pw will try and set some time aside from the texture project to make the corrections!

 

[Alopex]

>.> oh well... I actually like Fox's lasers locking people in their shields a bit.

It's fun and cool but it's hardly balanced if they can shieldlock from across the stage...

With the 11, you can still shieldlock with it, but it stops after just over half the laser's full range. That's a lot more balanced because the Fox takes a huge risk in pulling out the laser between that range, but can get a pretty nice reward for it if they succeed.

But tell me what strong attacks weren't doing it for you so that I can go more in depth into the testing.

 

[Frogles]

Good news! It is confirmed that the hitlag code does not affect the attacked player at all! Pw will try and set some time aside from the texture project to make the corrections!

yayz. hopefully lucas's dsmash won't do 40+% after the code is fixed.

 

[Alopex]

I really don't have any specific example of moves I want to be safe, but more I want very strong moves are can end quick when used right to give a bit more frame advantage. Thus giving Ike the ability to jab right after his fair hits a shield and giving Ganondorf a better position after thunderstorming a shield. Also I wish Wario's dair to give people slightly more shieldstun >.> *bite bite*.

Hmm... I think I see where the conflict is.

In terms of finding a standard, everyone's been going with the goals that MookieRah set up for shieldstun:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6347435&postcount=2818

So the conflict there lies in his goals for strong aerials compared to yours.

3. Strong aerials
Strong aerials should have a good deal of stun. They should have enough stun to where shield grabbing could not occur; however, it doesn't put the defensive player in too bad of a position. Strong aerials, in my opinion, should force a reset on your opponent, in which once you land both players are on roughly equal footing. This actually ties in with my earlier example.

I am playing Falcon. I get inside my opponents reach and land a knee. He shields it. I land in front of his face, but both my attacks lag and his shield lag has ended. We are now in roughly an equal position barring character differences. The main point of this is that Falcon has a great jab game, and I could then bring in jabs and start the jab game going.

4. Drills
Drills should act in a similar way as a strong aerial. Since they have little lag most of the time the amount of shield stun they have should last roughly the same length as the aerial's attack lag.

In your case, Giza, you want Ganon's strong aerial to actually give the offense an advantage.
Same goes for your desire for Wario's drill, I assume?

They're definitely understandable desires, I just don't know if they're the best in terms of finding a standard.

In that sense, I can see why you'd find 11 too little. 11/22/5 is geared towards making most strong attacks safe, but not advantageous.

Not to rag on your setup or anything since anyone can play Brawl+ how they want to. I just mean in terms of a standard for future tourneys.

However, there is still some room to make some stronger attacks safer. What I'll do is I'll try to find the highest possible hitstun where Fox's Lasers don't shieldlock from across the stage, then I'll post it here and you can give it a whirl to see if it's more to your liking.

 

[kupo15]

we need a break point for the shield stun code

 

[shanus]

Shield stun code is fine. Moving on, air speed.

 

[Alopex]

Lol, shanus... how do you propose we "move on" to that topic? It's not like anyone of us here can do anything about it... well, except Giza since he's a coder.

Can't wait for fixed hitlag, though.

 

[kupo15]

Can't wait for fixed hitlag, though.

Ditto times one thousand!!!

 

[Team Giza]

They're definitely understandable desires, I just don't know if they're the best in terms of finding a standard.

In that sense, I can see why you'd find 11 too little. 11/22/5 is geared towards making most strong attacks safe, but not advantageous.

Strong attacks should give slightly more of an advantage on shield as they gave in previous installments of the series. The main reason for this is because it has become much easier to defend against them with the better sidesteps and more powerful perfect shield system.

well, except Giza since he's a coder.

Just a starter so I still suck at it, and my computer is freaking out over usbs for some reason so its hard for me to do much at the moment.

 

[MookieRah]

On Fox's laser locking
This can be easily solved with a tournament rule that bans laser locking. If we can get the shield stun optimal for everything else, this shouldn't be that big of an issue.

Also, why does PW care about the texture project? Of all things to be interested in with codes...+

I agree with Giza about the strong attacks, although we need to be extra careful as to not go too far as well.

 

[shanus]

Lol, shanus... how do you propose we "move on" to that topic? It's not like anyone of us here can do anything about it... well, except Giza since he's a coder.

Can't wait for fixed hitlag, though.

Haha I guess I troll too much since I have nothing to do while I am at home. (Had surgery last week and am home before I go back to my college this weekend)

Ditto for fixed hitlag though!

 

[kupo15]

On Fox's laser locking
This can be easily solved with a tournament rule that bans laser locking. If we can get the shield stun optimal for everything else, this shouldn't be that big of an issue.

Also, why does PW care about the texture project? Of all things to be interested in with codes...+

I agree with Giza about the strong attacks, although we need to be extra careful as to not go too far as well.

or we can add a line that eliminates foxs lasers from the shield stun code similar to what the hitlag code has.

I have no idea, pw and iggly are doing textures...=(

 

[Team Giza]

On Fox's laser locking
This can be easily solved with a tournament rule that bans laser locking. If we can get the shield stun optimal for everything else, this shouldn't be that big of an issue.

Its really not nearly as bad as it seems. The laser lock does not keep you locked in it until your shield is broken. It just gets you stuck til you lose around 1/3 of it (for most characters). I really don't see it being a big deal in the least bit. I really don't find Fox being too great anymore with the more current settings most people have been using so him having something like this really isn't bad at all.
--
And when I said bite bite with Wario I didn't mean he gets a free bite or anything like that. I just realized it might sound like that.

 

[GPDP]

Seriously, if PW is gonna be working on textures, he might as well figure out a way to add a custom Brawl+ title screen or something.

 

[xicsrh]

Seriously, if PW is gonna be working on textures, he might as well figure out a way to add a custom Brawl+ title screen or something.

What textures? Are there any pics?

 

[kupo15]

What textures? Are there any pics?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSmWW8bkFME&

 

[spunit262]

What textures? Are there any pics?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSmWW8bkFME

 

[shanus]

So here is an important thing I think we all need to do, and that is to come to a general consensus on codesets and values while we wait on the last few codes. How do you think would be the best way to approach this? I think most everyone has the same feelings on the following codes:

Pretty Non-Disputed:
No Trip
Infinite Replay
Auto L-Canc
Hitstun (final value ~9%)
Shield Stun (11/22/5 currently, might go to 13/22/5)
Lagless Edges
No ASL
Buffer 0 or 1?
Dash Dancing
Hitlag 50% or 60%
No Stale Moves

Disputed:
Downwards Gravity 1.1-1.25, which is best? (I personally like 1.15)
Dash Speed 1.1-1.2, which is best? (I personally like 1.1)
Short Hop Height
Fastfall Speed
Upwards Grav?

 

[kupo15]

Lol spunit. Deja vue!

And shanus that looks pretty good

 

[Revven]

Also, why does PW care about the texture project? Of all things to be interested in with codes...

Because his first biggest project before Melee Air Dodge was to allow a Gecko OS/Ocarina user the ability to make textures and put them into Brawl with codes. Without the need of doing any ISO hacking or having a modchip like Syntax Error and the like. He had to drop the project though because there wasn't going to be any way to upload the textures without a USB Gecko, thus, the project was worthless to continue and he moved on.

He's come back to it, with the help of Igglyboo, because Gecko OS 2.0 is going to come out with what I believe is a way to upload the textures onto the game from the SD Card (though, I'm not 100% on this, it may be something else that loads the textures). That is why he's come back to it and why he is bothering with it because a TON of people want it without hard modding their Wii.

 

[GPDP]

Speaking of hacking the ISO... would it be possible to make a back-up ISO of Brawl and hack whatever the final standard codeset is into the game itself, so that no SD card is needed?

 

[kupo15]

Everyone:

There has been a crime. A crime against this project an out lash. One of my yt videos were brutally attacked with vulgar "go back to melee" comments and trolling that was really hideous. I have managed to win this time by deleting the 30+ remarks but not without suffering some casualties. My friends...sketch and Solicitude7 were viciously beaten up and there comment rating down. We must avenge them by giving them "thumb ups" and restore the honor that was taken away from them. I can not do it myself for I can only do one vote, so I turn this to you. Please help if you can....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRChvPf3vt0&feature=channel_page

 

[GPDP]

Oh goody, intarweb wars.

 

[leafgreen386]

Speaking of hacking the ISO... would it be possible to make a back-up ISO of Brawl and hack whatever the final standard codeset is into the game itself, so that no SD card is needed?

You could turn brawl into pong with iso hacking if you wanted to.

 

[MookieRah]

Please guys, don't bother. It's just a bunch of hardcore anti-melee Brawl scrubs. They far outnumber us and more than likely are doing it mostly for the lulz.

 

[GPDP]

You could turn brawl into pong with iso hacking if you wanted to.

No need. Vanilla Brawl is basically Pong with prettier graphics.

 

[Zilactic]

So here is an important thing I think we all need to do, and that is to come to a general consensus on codesets and values while we wait on the last few codes. How do you think would be the best way to approach this? I think most everyone has the same feelings on the following codes:

Pretty Non-Disputed:
No Trip
Infinite Replay
Auto L-Canc
Hitstun (final value ~9%)
Shield Stun (11/22/5 currently, might go to 13/22/5)
Lagless Edges
No ASL
Buffer 0 or 1?
Dash Dancing
Hitlag 50% or 60%
No Stale Moves

Disputed:
Downwards Gravity 1.1-1.25, which is best? (I personally like 1.15)
Dash Speed 1.1-1.2, which is best? (I personally like 1.1)
Short Hop Height
Fastfall Speed
Upwards Grav?

well since its being discussed. ill throw my 2 cents in.

downwards gravity - i agree with the 1.15 value
dash speed - i actually find the middle value (1.15) better. iono y just feels cool to run a lil bit faster. WOOOOSH!!!
short hop height - im currently using .95. SH's arent too high nor too short. i like it
fast fall speed - 1.2
upwards gravity - although i like this as of now (at a value of 1.05) i would gladly give this up for a horizontal air movement/momentum code

 

[leafgreen386]

No need. Vanilla Brawl is basically Pong with prettier graphics.

Truuuuuuuuu

 

[Alopex]

On Fox's laser locking
This can be easily solved with a tournament rule that bans laser locking. If we can get the shield stun optimal for everything else, this shouldn't be that big of an issue.

Its really not nearly as bad as it seems. The laser lock does not keep you locked in it until your shield is broken. It just gets you stuck til you lose around 1/3 of it (for most characters). I really don't see it being a big deal in the least bit. I really don't find Fox being too great anymore with the more current settings most people have been using so him having something like this really isn't bad at all.

Ok, first things first before we jump any guns, there's still this:

For the Fox's lasers thing on shield, you have to consider hitlag as well as shieldstun in this case. Since the lasers are projectiles Fox does not go into hitlag himself when they hit, so the hitlag has the same effect here as the shieldstun for trapping them in their shield.

His lasers repeat every 10 frames, so if they were to stay in place they would be trapped in shield if the hitlag + shieldstun >= 10. Since they get some pushback from them, to consistently trap them it's probably hitlag + shieldstun >= 11.

As I'm certain you've all just read, PW has confirmed to kupo that the hitlag code isn't affecting the attacked character.

This means that when that code is fixed (SOON!), the lasers will be doing an automatically reduced shieldstun. At that point, the laser shieldlock will probably never happen.

So that's good news. It means we can stop worrying about Fox's laser shieldlock and look at shieldstun without worrying about that.

It also means that until the hitlag code is fixed, all projectile shieldstun is larger than it will actually end up being. Assuming all projectiles cause hitlag on block, like Fox's lasers do.

Now, moving on to shield stun values.



Mookie, I need to know exactly what your stance is on strong aerials.

Giza said this, and you said you agreed with him as long as we don't go too far:

Strong attacks should give slightly more of an advantage on shield as they gave in previous installments of the series. The main reason for this is because it has become much easier to defend against them with the better sidesteps and more powerful perfect shield system.

@Giza
If the easy Perfect Shielding is something you see as a detrimental factor to offense, meriting the higher shieldstun, well then all we need is to use the Perfect Shield Window Reduction code that came out last night. Harder PSing means less powerful defense as it is.


@ Mookie
I need to know how far is too far. You've changed your stance from wanting strong aerials to be neutral to wanting them to be slightly advantageous. Well, I need to know how much of an advantage we're talking about.
An example not using Falcon's Knee would be nice, because Falcon's Knee will never result in an advantageous position since it has sex kick lingering length as well as long landing lag.

And when I said bite bite with Wario I didn't mean he gets a free bite or anything like that. I just realized it might sound like that.

After testing that move some more, I will agree with you that it definitely needs more shieldstun time as it is too easily punished right now.

But we need to be careful with it, because Fox's drill is just around the corner and it can easily end up causing enough shieldstun to create an easy Dair->Grab or Dair->Dsmash or Dair->Jab on block. And that's TOO safe...

 

[Zilactic]

i have always wondered y a person would like vanilla brawl over brawl+, its just so dumbfounding really.
most of the people who rag on brawl+ havent even tried it and yet most of them complain that vanilla brawl is too slow and combo worthless. hypocrites.

/rant *deep breath*

 

[kupo15]

@Alopex

Really? Well I mean spunit just gave me this:

Shield Stun [spunit262] 

C28753FC 00000006
83810034 2C1C[COLOR="DarkOrange"]VVVV[/COLOR]
40810020 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9C[COLOR="Red"]XXXX[/COLOR] 3B9C[COLOR="Lime"]ZZZZ[/COLOR]
3880[COLOR="Red"][COLOR="Blue"]YYYY[/COLOR][/COLOR] 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

V is the break point (anything below V is untouched)
The old_frames_stuned*X+Z/Y=new_frames_stunned

and this

Shield Stun V8 [spunit262]
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9CXXXX 3B9CZZZZ
3880YYYY 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

Both should eliminate near perfect shielding also

 

[Revven]

i have always wondered y a person would like vanilla brawl over brawl+, its just so dumbfounding really.
most of the people who rag on brawl+ havent even tried it and yet most of them complain that vanilla brawl is too slow and combo worthless. hypocrites.

/rant *deep breath*

It's mostly because they see nothing wrong with Brawl for one of these various reasons:

1) They never played the previous two Smash games
2) They like the way Brawl is and its "strategic" value
3) They don't like hacks and thus, think ill of them without trying them. (Thus, being biased).
4) They think changing Brawl is a sin and that it's ruining the game more than it is making it better (to them, that is the case).
5) Some don't want to make the change because they feel that Brawl is fine because they "do good".

It's all bias, and that's all it is. You can't persuade Brawl players unless you shove Brawl+ in their face and MAKE them play it. Then they'll either like it or hate it. In the end, we're not trying to appeal to MOST Brawl players, this is for SMASHERS, and if you're a Smasher then you'll play Brawl+. People who liked Melee will play Brawl+, people who liked Smash 64 will play Brawl+, people who like Brawl? Only some will make the transition.

Believe me, it's hard to get someone who likes Brawl to play Brawl+. My friend Antz doesn't like hitstun in Brawl for some reason and thus doesn't want to play Brawl+ no matter HOW many times I ask him or make him play it, he just doesn't like it because I can actually combo him (and for some reason, he can't combo... me? =\)

Anyway, point is, people are biased and people are stupid. That's what I learned in Political Philosophy.

For vanilla Brawlers, it is the best of all possible worlds! (A quote from the novel "Candide" which is satire on optimism, which is exactly what vanilla Brawl is about!)

 

[Team Giza]

After testing that move some more, I will agree with you that it definitely needs more shieldstun time as it is too easily punished right now.

But we need to be careful with it, because Fox's drill is just around the corner and it can easily end up causing enough shieldstun to create an easy Dair->Grab or Dair->Dsmash or Dair->Jab on block. And that's TOO safe...

I've been paying close attention to that as Fox and Metaknight are the characters I have to play the most against.

 

[storm92]

For vanilla Brawlers, it is the best of all possible worlds! (A quote from the novel "Candide" which is satire on optimism, which is exactly what vanilla Brawl is about!)

Just finished reading that book for English...*grumbles*

Think about it, if they hadn't bought Brawl which they thought they were amazing at which led them to Smashboards which in turn made them see this Brawl+ topic which then led them to think Brawl+ was their enemy then come up with a horrible idea that it would be fun to troll our videos which then made kupo and all of us very frustrated, we would not be sitting here with our high ground.

 

[matt4300]

So here is an important thing I think we all need to do, and that is to come to a general consensus on codesets and values while we wait on the last few codes. How do you think would be the best way to approach this? I think most everyone has the same feelings on the following codes:

Pretty Non-Disputed:
No Trip
Infinite Replay
Auto L-Canc
Hitstun (final value ~9%)
Shield Stun (11/22/5 currently, might go to 13/22/5)
Lagless Edges
No ASL
Buffer 0 or 1?
Dash Dancing
Hitlag 50% or 60%
No Stale Moves

Disputed:
Downwards Gravity 1.1-1.25, which is best? (I personally like 1.15)
Dash Speed 1.1-1.2, which is best? (I personally like 1.1)
Short Hop Height
Fastfall Speed
Upwards Grav?

well i agree with the majoirty thank god i can use whatever i want because the hitstun9 is only good with the fast chars or more combo-y ones... everyone eles is **** in the ***

 

[kupo15]

well i agree with the majoirty thank god i can use whatever i want because the hitstun9 is only good with the fast chars or more combo-y ones... everyone eles is **** in the ***

thats what I thought before but its simply not true. My friend beats me with bowser sometimes....

 

[Alopex]

Lol, not only did he add a break point, but he also chopped off 3-4 lines in the process? That's simply fantastic.

I get the feeling that using the break point will have undesired side-effects, though. Mainly in terms of jabs.

So we'll probably end up using the 6 line code and not use a break point after the hitlag code is fixed.

 

[kupo15]

Lol, not only did he add a break point, but he also chopped off 3-4 lines in the process? That's simply fantastic.

I get the feeling that using the break point will have undesired side-effects, though. Mainly in terms of jabs.

So we'll probably end up using the 6 line code and not use a break point after the hitlag code is fixed.

Do you really think hitlag is the problem? I mean wouldn't it affect all moves so then you would adjust the added frames and things would be fine? Does it lock without the hitlag codes?