COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Shell]

For pure ****.

Any progress with shieldstun, MookieRah?

 

[Starscream]

Do we even need a dash speed increase? Seems really unnecessary. Shouldn't we be focusing on fixing more important things like grab releases and locks? What about the thunder lag on the one getting hit with the hitlag codes?

Now fast falling during specials would be awesome.

 

[lamelikemike]

hey, i don't claim to understand what the coders are doing, but i'm posting this just in the possibility that it could help.

@almas, is it possible to use the wind effect (like in picto-chat) to change dash-jump air speed. for instance, if you could get it to effect characters individually. a character that runs before jumping will get a backwind (additional momentum) until a second jump cancels it.

 

[shanus]

Oops to puff and jiggs, you know what i meant. Puff and wario, I was typing quickly

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i had an idea. we were looking for ways to increase the speed of the characters. the stop watch item actually speeds up characters individually without affecting the stage. just something to throw out there.

 

[plasmatorture]

Question:
The WarioWare no-minigames code that was posted a few pages back - how was this found? Can we disable other hazards (ie cannons on Pirate Ship) in a similar fashion?

Also, between my roommate and I we play every character except Ivysaur. We also haven't used Mario in a while but now that the TJG is fixed I'll definitley be giving him a shot. The ones my roommate spends the most time with are Pit, Zelda, Olimar, G&W, Jiggs, Lucas, and Lucario, and I mainly (lol) play Marth, Ness, Luigi, Fox, Kirby, Sheik, Falcon, Falco, Wolf, Squirtle, Charizard, Ike, Yoshi, Pikachu, Lucario and Diddy. Plus all his characters and the rest of the cast, but I MOST OFTEN play those 16.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

almas' dash/ff/sh code makes attacks shake more than usual :S

 

[Alopex]

I've been doing tons of testing on shieldstun today, and there's one thing I need to discuss with everyone here:

Fox's Lasers.

Fox's Lasers shieldlock at just about any shieldstun value.

I was testing low values like 3/1/1 on the Version 2 code and it still managed to shieldlock. Granted, it would never shieldbreak. The shield would always get too small and the laser would always end up shieldstabbing after the shieldlock and never got a shieldbreak.

Still, it would almost completely deplete the opponent's shield before they could escape the shieldstun and would allow Fox to rush in and try to capitalize on the opponent while their shield is still weak.

For those of you who are messing with shield regen, this tactic would be exponentially more lethal.

I see problems with this and the only saving grace I found was this:
Fox's Lasers only shieldlock when they're fresh or near-fresh.
If the Lasers are stale, then the shieldstun is greatly reduced and can be gotten out of before a second laser hits (varying with staleness).

So now I start to wonder... what staleness property leads to reduced shieldstun? Knockback or damage?

Under a No Decay system (like Training Mode, where I did my testing) Fox's Lasers would shieldlock ALL THE TIME.
So if we want to play with shieldstun, we can't play with No Decay unless we find a way to fix Fox's Lasers.

Playing with reduced decay will also just power up the laser even more.

I think it's of utmost priority now that we figure out which staleness property causes reduced shieldstun.
Whichever staleness property (knockback or damage) causes it needs to have its "staleability" retained, otherwise Fox's Lasers will be the bane of shieldstun.

Hopefully, it is damage decay that causes shieldstun decay (but I have a feeling it's knockback...).

EDIT: I know that we were discussing removing staleness as a means of shieldstun fixing (fresh attacks causing shieldstun don't cause enough when stale; setting fully stale as the baseline results in shieldlocking when fresh, etc.), but if we do remove staleness, we need to find a way to fix Fox's Lasers.

I don't like staleness either, and its affect on shieldstun definitely makes it just about impossible to find a good value, but Fox's Lasers being always fresh or near fresh would be grossly broken.

ALSO,

I shall soon get up a video of the Near-Perfect Shielding so everyone can see what it's all about.

 

[StarshipGroove]

There's not much point in fixing thunder hit lag if the only noteworthy problem is Lucas's downsmash. Besides it's not that overpowered, and it makes up for his inability to combo.

Let Lucas get some advantages, lord knows he needs them

 

[GPDP]

Should we perhaps add a break line to the shieldstun code to prevent laser locking?

 

[leafgreen386]

Do fox's lasers even cause shieldstun normally? The fact that we're adding something like 4 or 5 frames of shieldstun to everything should make this something to be expected. We could probably set a breakpoint of 0 to prevent moves like fox's lasers from causing shieldstun (assuming they do not cause shieldstun normally).

Btw, the stale moves affecting shieldstun can only affect it in two ways: 1) Through the damage a move deals and 2) Through the damage a move deals and an additional stale moves mod on shieldstun. I think #1 is a lot more likely.

 

[Alopex]

If it's through damage only, then I think we should toss that "Damage-only Decay" code to the top of the priority list for our coders.

Keeps KO potential with non-stale knockbacks, prevents Utilts spam (and Sheik Ftilt spam) from doing as much easy damage, and keeps Fox's Lasers staleable so that they don't constantly cause shieldlocking.

Or if a break in the code will fix it, I'm all for it.


As for the shielstun of Fox's Lasers in VB, Leaf, it's impossible to tell from just looking at VB. Maybe someone with a USB Gecko would be able to find out? Because just straight up 1/4 speed VB analysis, you'd never know what causes shieldstun and what doesn't.

VB Fox's Lasers DO cause shieldpushing and shield reduction on each hit, though. So it would be likely it causes an extremely fractional amount of hitstun, just like every other move in Vanilla.

 

[poklin]

what should be input for the speed modifier? im using SH/DS code

 

[Yeroc]

I don't get this problem using 2/4 on the 9 line 2.0, 0 decay, 0 buffer. The shield goes down after like 2 hits.

 

[shanus]

I don't get this problem using 2/4 on the 9 line 2.0, 0 decay, 0 buffer. The shield goes down after like 2 hits.

Thats good to hear. Since you have a 2/4 file made, can you test shieldgrabbing on a couple moves such as a dash attack, a jab, and a strong aerial?

 

[Yeroc]

Yeah, give me a couple minutes.

I can already tell you that ZSS's 1st jab isn't completely safe, but you won't get grabbed in between hits. Her dash attack isn't safe. I think her dair might be safe, because her shield comes up as she gets grabbed. I'll test a few other characters.

 

[cobaltblue]

Dark and Blaze: I added you two to the list.

Plasma, you know the mechanics for all of those characters? Just checking before I add you to the list (whole lot @_@) as hopefully this list will show that for future reference we took into account all of the cast.

[FONT="Arial Black"]Bowser:
*Kupo15

Falco:
Osi

Falcon:
Kupo15
Shanus
Osi

Fox:
Osi
KayJay

King D3:
Kupo15
Osi

Diddy Kong:
Shanus
Osi*

DK:
Shadic
Osi

Ganon:
Kupo15
Shanus

Iceclimbers:
Osi

Jigglypuff:
Osi
Kayjay
*plasmatorture

Link:
Shadic
KayJay

Lucas:
*plasmatorture

Lucario:
Paprika Killer
Shanus
Osi*
*plasmatorture

Mario:
Kupo15
Osi
Marioblaze

Marth:
*Osi

MetaKnight:
Paprika Killer
Shanus

Mr. Game & Watch:
*plasmatorture

Ness:
Kupo15
Shanus
Osi*

Olimar:
Shanus
*plasmatorture

Peach:
Osi
KayJay

pikachu:
Osi

Pit:
Kupo15
Osi
*plasmatorture

Rob:
*Shanus

Samus:
Kupo15
Osi

Sheik:
Osi

Sonic:
Kupo15
Osi*
KayJay  	
Dark Sonic

Wolf:
Osi

Yoshi:
Osi
Kayjay

Zelda:
Kayjay
*plasmatorture

ZSS:
Kupo15
Osi*[/FONT]

 

[zxeon]

I play Marth, Falco, and Captain Falcon.

 

[Eaode]

This is a general Wii hack question, but is there a way to downgrade from 3.4 yet?

And is there some sort of way to make the Wii think it has the latest menu (So I can still play recent games on it)?

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I'm a Squirtle main, so I suppose I can get added to the list.

 

[shanus]

This is a general Wii hack question, but is there a way to downgrade from 3.4 yet?

And is there some sort of way to make the Wii think it has the latest menu (So I can still play recent games on it)?

You can hack it on 3.4. I hacked mine when it was 3.4

 

[Zilactic]

i play MK, olimar, fox, and wario

im mainly testing yoshi and captain falcon though. that dinosaur is a freaking beast in brawl+ no kidding.


just a lil note to kupo. the auto sweetspot code on the OP says 24 lines when it really is 45 lines.
im just saying. haha

 

[Eaode]

You can hack it on 3.4. I hacked mine when it was 3.4

Really? Sweet, then I'm going to hack my Wii soon. Just need to Borrow TP and an SD Card -.-;;

 

[shanus]

Really? Sweet, then I'm going to hack my Wii soon. Just need to Borrow TP and an SD Card -.-;;

Just download Makkun's premade SD package, but replace the Twilight hack portion of it with the updated one from their website (its all explained in Makkun's thread).

 

[okiyama]

This number will never change

There's the possibility that they will find a way for your wii to get confused and use the SD card as extra ram.

On real computers you can but USB ram, it's not as fast but the system does recognize it as ram.

 

[Yeroc]

Ike's fair is safe. His dash attack I'm not sure about.

Marth's fair is also safe. His dash attack is not, but it can be spaced and has moderate pushback.

 

[Shadic]

Cobalt, can you put me down for Ivysaur and Ike, as well? I play them a lot, so I've got a pretty good feel for them.

 

[Unseen_Killa]

I uploaded some videos showing off some very good combos with Sheik and Falco. Only problem is they're CPUs :/. But there's still some very cool stuff to be seen! .

Sheik
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnDBFFfW-Sg
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXNLlDW24LM
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DABkK7E0PKE

Falco
4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0h4bRVHE5E
5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOOzmVjsIZA

Sorry, the audio was ****ed, and I couldn't just let it be mute! So i put some music over it that you probably won't like XD.

I also did some ******** stuff, as I just started using these codes and I was experimenting.

 

[Almas]

Someone answer me this - if you go from a dash to the air, do you begin in the air at your maximum air speed, or do you have to accelerate from 0 air speed?

Increasing people's ability to DI in the air doesn't sound like it would be too hard - it's almost certainly one of the >9000 variables in my ridiculously long list of unknown variables.

 

[Shell]

I'm pretty sure you begin at your maximum air speed. Increasing air DI doesn't seem like the way to do it, as characters like jiggz and wario would lose what makes them so special.

 

[Yeroc]

I believe that you start at a velocity related to the direction you're holding when you leave the ground. This is why you can do full length backwards jumps from a run in Brawl, just like in SSB64. I think Kupo's right. There is no dash jump coefficient in this game.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic has a jab lock infinite.

Jablock->pivot jab->continue jab lock (in new direction).

This works on Smaller characters (by smaller, I mean shorter since they're laying down)

So far, the tallest character I've gotten it to work on is Shiek/Zelda (Yes, it works on both of them. On a side note, Zelda lies so low on the ground that she actually cannot be hit by Sonic's jab unless it is used immediately after she bounces off the floor from either a footstool or a missed tech)

The timing and spacing on Zelda are pretty strict (I still can't get it 100% consistant), but I'll keep trying on some of the larger characters.

I also found out that Sonic can combo from his f-throw at higher percentages. If they DI away he can run up and fair or uair. If they don't DI or DI behind him he can uair or bair.

Man, Sonic is just getting better and better.
People are going to be tier whoring him for sure (which makes me . Sonic dittos are pretty boring)

 

[Alopex]

I don't get this problem using 2/4 on the 9 line 2.0, 0 decay, 0 buffer. The shield goes down after like 2 hits.

Why would the shield go down after 2 hits of the laser if there's no decay on?

It doesn't really make sense that it would go down after 2 hits but not after 1 hit if the properties of the laser don't change...

It also doesn't make sense that 2/4/1 wouldn't have it happen but 3/1/1 would. The laser should be more affected by the additive than by the multiplier since it's a weak hit...

I'll test out 2/4/1 right now and see what happens.

 

[Almas]

Oh no, I'm clearly aware there's no "dash jump coefficient". We've known that since the start. zxeon showed it as a formality a little while ago with the dash modifier code, but it was common knowledge.

Using ASM codes it should be possible to inject a couple of lines in the part where it decides your velocity the moment you enter the air to add on a ratio of your current speed... Maybe. The problem is finding where in the ASM code this is (very hard), finding where velocity is stored (not very hard) and making sure the changes only apply when you want them to (extremely hard). I just have lots of things on my plate and lack the motivation to get it all done at times.

 

[johe]

Cobalt, put me down for Fox, Shiek, and Ganondorf. I'm not good, but I guess I'm not bad.

Also lol at being like the only person who doesn't main Craptain Falcon.

 

[Osi]

Could we just increase the initial speed of the dash jump when it leaves the ground (like change the velocity as it leaves the ground and it would start at a faster rate before dissipating in the air)? Or is that animation the same as any jump one?

 

[storm92]

Cobalt, put me down for Fox, Shiek, and Ganondorf. I'm not good, but I guess I'm not bad.

Also lol at being like the only person who doesn't main Craptain Falcon.

Bad johe!
CF is not craptain anymore.

 

[johe]

Bad johe!
CF is not craptain anymore.

NEVAR >:3

10nevers

 

[plasmatorture]

Plasma, you know the mechanics for all of those characters? Just checking before I add you to the list (whole lot @_@) as hopefully this list will show that for future reference we took into account all of the cast.

Mechanics as in char-specific ATs? No. I never bothered because VB never seemed worth learning at a higher level. I did, however, play a ton (mainly 1v1, tournament rules) from when Brawl came out as random. I have extensive hours as each character, and know how to play as them at a decent level. It was only about a little over a month ago when I found out about B+ that I started picking characters. Not that most of the characters I listed (for myself), save Diddy and maybe Ness, Lucas, and Yoshi, have very complicated specific techniques or mechanics that I am not so great at (although Yoshi and Ness are two of my best characters so I dunno).

I can easily work out comboes with most characters, and generally know what approaches are good and bad. I'm not an expert at the game or with any one character (Marth is definitley my main, however), but to test B+ stuff at some level (ie is the hitlag too low? etc.) doesn't require super advanced play to realize.

My roommate, on the other hand, definitley isn't as good as me (he can't even shorthop consistently) and doesn't always agree with the goals of the project (ie he likes brawl's stale move system ), but he certainly is above average when it comes to the greater smash community.

I assure you, though, that except for Ivysaur and actually ROB I think everyone gets played at least every other playsession, which are a few times a week. So I guess I want to know - are you making a list of what characters are being tested with B+ at all, orwhat characters are being tested by people specifically skilled in that character?

If it's the former, go ahead and pare my list down to Fox, Marth, Kirby, Squirtle, Luigi, Charizard, and Sheik, and my roommates to Lucario, Pit, Zelda, and G&W.

 

[zxeon]

NEVAR >:3

10nevers

I'm whatchin' you Johe.

Ten falcons