COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Eaode]

Thanks a bunch Kupo. I really appreciate all the work that's gone into this project. I quit WoW recently, and this is just the thing to keep me off of it! Thanks again, these codes are fantastic.

You guys are saving lives here, you should be proud.

EDIT: beat by Zilactic :/

 

[zxeon]

So I guess everyone disagrees and thinks nerfing vertical KOs is a good idea? >_>

nerfing vert kills is bad. Sonic for one relies on vertical kos

Although the nerf isnt all that bad. At Downward gravity ×1.5 (Which is way more than we'll ever use) it's only a difference of ten percent.

Not a huge deal, but a nerf is a nerf.

 

[kupo15]

UUVWXYZ0

UU is the character ID.
V is sh height.
W is full jump and double jump height
X is fast fall speed
Y is downgrav
Z is full grav

 

[Deleted member]

Although the nerf isnt all that bad. At Downward gravity ×1.5 (Which is way more than we'll ever use) it's only a difference of ten percent.

Not a huge deal, but a nerf is a nerf.

10% isn't that much in brawl+ and we will most likely use something in the range of 1.1-1.3

 

[SketchHurricane]

anyways where does everyone stand on teh Dash Canceling code?

Still not sure. Dash Canceling on it's own is completely awesome IMO, but I do have issues with it combined with Dash Dancing, which makes you able to change direction on a dime anywhere in your dash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdZZ6mGXqnA

Kinda sucks, because while both codes alone seem like must haves, together they create this over powered movement option. I'm not sure how much it effects actual play at this point since I've refrained from combining them, but I can imagine it being extremely abusable by fast characters.

 

[Eaode]

Still not sure. Dash Canceling on it's own is completely awesome IMO, but I do have issues with it combined with Dash Dancing, which makes you able to change direction on a dime anywhere in your dash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdZZ6mGXqnA

Kinda sucks, because while both codes alone seem like must haves, together they create this over powered movement option. I'm not sure how much it effects actual play at this point since I've refrained from combining them, but I can image it being extremely abusable by fast characters.

Maybe...

this was possible in Melee as well, but not as fast, because in Melee IIRC you have to go through the crouching animation first.

...you could add something that makes dash canceling go through the crouch animation (however many frames that is), but still cancel into smashes, etc.?

 

[Deleted member]

let's discuss that later in the voting thread maybe.

anyone some good vid's lately?

 

[Unseen_Killa]

I could post videos, but it was be against CPUs. And the quality isn't the best but its workable and smooth. I could do against players if anyone wants to play me online.

 

[shanus]

By early next week, I'll have vids out the wazoo.

 

[kupo15]

So apparently I was quite wrong about shield stun. Here is what Magus had to say about it:

I think the 1st question to consider is: What moves should even keep you in shield stun the entire time when they are fresh? As far as Melee goes, not many multihit moves actually do this at full strength, and it's generally only the extremely rapid ones and/or slightly more damaging ones such as the 3+ damage per hit drills.

Also no, most staled multihit attacks generally shouldn't lock you in shield, but again it really depends on the attack itself, and the stale codes being used. With the stale reductions only at like 1/4th, there really won't be much of a significant reduction in damage for multihit attacks as they do very little damage per hit to begin with, and in turn it won't have much of an impact on shieldstun in most cases.

I remember you mentioning before about CF's n-air not keeping them in shieldstun between the 1st to 2nd kicks. His kicks actually didn't even come close to doing this before. I'll give some examples of moves down below.

A lot of the hitbox data for attacks stayed the same between the 2 games, so if there isn't very detailed frame data for a move's hitboxes in Brawl, there's a good chance the hitbox timings are the same as they were in Melee anyway. When I did Luigi's data I ended up just copying the listing for him from Melee and not needing to change much for the hitbox info. It was mostly the other properties of the moves like lag and such that were different.


Damage changed quite a bit in some cases too which is important. Peach's D-Smash is an obvious example of this. In Melee at 14% a hit and only 4 frames apart it locked down shields with plenty of stun to spare.


For the 'Shieldlock' part, positive numbers shield lock, while 0 and negatives do not:

+X: They are locked in shieldstun for an additional X number of frames beyond when the next hit connects (shield locks).

+1: There's just enough stun so that they cannot release shield before the next hit connects (shield locks).

0: It can be released at the same time the next hit connects, so if they let go of shield between hits they get hit (no shield lock).

-X: They are able to drop it X number of frames before the next hit connects (no shield lock).

Also, Electric-Type attacks have 1.5x hitlag for the opponent, but only on HIT. On block they have normal hitlag.


Bowser
D-Air
Hit: 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23-24, 26-27, 29-30, 32-33, 35-36, 38-39
Damage: 3 (Hits 1-9)
Hitlag: 4 (Hits 1-9)
Shieldstun: 3 (Hits 1-9)
Shieldlock: +1 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

Captain Falcon
N-Air
Hit: 7-12, 20-29
Damage: 6 (Kick 1); 7 (Kick 2)
Hitlag: 5 (Kick 1); 5 (Kick 2)
Shieldstun: 4 (Kick 1); 5 (Kick 2)
Shieldlock: -8 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2)

Fox
D-Air (sweetspot)
Hit: 5-6, 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23-24
Damage: 3 (Kicks 1-7)
Hitlag: 4 (Kicks 1-7)
Shieldstun: 3 (Kicks 1-7)
Shieldlock: +1 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2); etc

There's also a weaker hitbox on the d-air at the end of his feet that only does 2 damage:

D-Air (sourspot)
Hit: [Same]
Damage: 2 (Kicks 1-7)
Hitlag: 3 (Kicks 1-7)
Shieldstun: 2 (Kicks 1-7)
Shieldlock: 0 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2); etc

Rapid-A Kicks
Hits: 3-4, 10-11, 17-18, 24-25, 31-32
Damage: 1 (Kicks 1-5)
Hitlag: 3 (Kicks 1-5)
Shieldstun: 2 (Kicks 1-5)
Shieldlock: -4 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2); etc

Game & Watch
B-Air
Hit: 10-21; Hitbox refreshes and can hit again every 3 frames, so 10, 13, 16, 19
Damage: 5 (Hits 1-4)
Hitlag: 4 (Hits 1-4)
Shieldstun: 4 (Hits 1-4)
Shieldlock: +2 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

Jigglypuff
D-Air
Hit: 5-6, 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23-24, 26-27
Damage: 2 (Kicks 1-8)
Hitlag: 3 (Kicks 1-8)
Shieldstun: 2 (Kicks 1-8)
Shieldlock: 0 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2); etc

Kirby
D-Air
Hit: 18-19, 21-22, 24-25, 27-28, 30-31, 33-34
Damage: 3 (Kicks 1-6)
Hitlag: 4 (Kicks 1-6)
Shieldstun: 3 (Kicks 1-6)
Shieldlock: +1 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2); etc

F-Air
Hit: 10-11, 17-18, 25-26
Damage: 5 (Kicks 1-2); 8 (Kick 3)
Hitlag: 4 (Kicks 1-2); 5 (Kick 3)
Shieldstun: 4 (Kicks 1-2); 5 (Kick 3)
Shieldlock: -2 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2); -3 (Kick 2 -> Kick 3)

Link
B-Air
Hit: 6-9, 18-23
Damage: 7 (Kicks 1-2)
Hitlag: 5 (Kicks 1-2)
Shieldstun: 5 (Kicks 1-2)
Shieldlock: -6 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2)

Mario
D-Air
Hit: 10-11, 13-14, 16-17, 19-20, 22-23, 25-26
Damage: 2 (Kicks 1-6)
Hitlag: 3 (Kicks 1-6)
Shieldstun: 2 (Kicks 1-6)
Shieldlock: 0 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2); etc

Marth
N-Air
Hit: 6-7, 15-21
Damage: 4 (Hit 1); 10 (Hit 2)
Hitlag: 4 (Hit 1); 6 (Hit 2)
Shieldstun: 3 (Hit 1); 6 (Hit 2)
Shieldlock: -5 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2)

Ness
F-Air (Electric-Type)
Hit: 8-10, 11-13, 14-16, 17-19, 20-21
Damage: 3 (Hits 1-4); 5 (Hit 5)
Hitlag: 4 (Hits 1-4); 4 (Hit 5)
Shieldstun: 3 (Hits 1-4); 4 (Hit 5)
Shieldlock: +1 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

Peach
D-Air
Hit: 12-13, 18-19, 24-25, 30-31
Damage: 3 (Kicks 1-4)
Hitlag: 4 (Kicks 1-4)
Shieldstun: 3 (Kicks 1-4)
Shieldlock: -2 (Kick 1 -> Kick 2); etc

D-Smash
Hit: 5-6, 9-10, 13-14, 17-18, 21-22
Damage: 14 (Hits 1-5)
Hitlag: 7 (Hits 1-5)
Shieldstun: 8 (Hits 1-5)
Shieldlock: +5 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

Pikachu
D-Smash (Electric-Type)
Hit: 7-8, 10-11, 13-14, 16-17, 19-20, 22-23, 25
Damage: 2 (Hits 1-6); 3 (Hit 7)
Hitlag: 3 (Hits 1-6); 4 (Hit 7)
Shieldstun: 2 (Hits 1-6); 3 (Hit 7)
Shieldlock: 0 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

Samus
F-Air
Hit: 4-5, 11-12, 18-19, 25-26, 30-31
Damage: 5 (Hits 1-5)
Hitlag: 4 (Hits 1-5)
Shieldstun: 4 (Hits 1-5)
Shieldlock: -2 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); ... 0 (Hit 4 -> Hit 5)

Yoshi
D-Air
Hit: 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, 38, 40, 42, 44
Damage: 4 (Hits 1-14)
Hitlag: 4 (Hits 1-14)
Shieldstun: 3 (Hits 1-14)
Shieldlock: +2 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

Zelda
U-Smash (Electric-Type)
Hit: (1st wave) 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, (2nd wave) 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34
Damage: 1 (Hits 1-11); 5 (Hit 12)
Hitlag: 3 (Hits 1-11); 4 (Hit 12)
Shieldstun: 2 (Hits 1-11); 4 (Hit 12)
Shieldlock: +1 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); ... -6 (Hit 6 -> Hit 7); +1 (Hit 7 -> Hit 8); etc

F-Smash (Electric-Type)
Hit: 16, 18, 20, 22, 24
Damage: 1 (Hits 1-4); 14 (Hit 5)
Hitlag: 3 (Hits 1-4); 7 (Hit 5)
Shieldstun: 2 (Hits 1-4); 8 (Hit 5)
Shieldlock: +1 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

N-Air
Hit: 6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23, 26-27
Damage: 2 (Hits 1-5); 5 (Hit 6)
Hitlag: 3 (Hits-5); 4 (Hit 6)
Shieldstun: 2 (Hits 1-5); 4 (Hit 6)
Shieldlock: -1 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

Nayru's Love
Hit: 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27
Damage: 1 (Hits 1-5); 5 (Hit 6)
Hitlag: 3 (Hits 1-5); 4 (Hit 6)
Shieldstun: 2 (Hits 1-5); 4 (Hit 6)
Shieldlock: 0 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

 

[MBlaze]

Elaborate?

http://rapidshare.com/files/182671961/Brawl_.txt.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/182671962/RSBE01.gct.html


Yes! Come away from the dark side and join us instead!

That's what I wanted, thanks.

 

[shanus]

So apparently I was quite wrong about shield stun. Here is what Magus had to say about it:

Are these values the ones in vanilla Brawl, or with the new shield stun code at 3/5? I think it has to be vanilla by the values I see now.

Also, since I am assuming these are vanilla brawl values, wouldnt we only want to increase the shield stun of these moves very slightly by only in most cases by like 2?

That puts most shield stun values at greater than or equal to 0. If so, by what percentage are we increasing shieldstun with 3/5?

Is the code by memrory S=(S+X/Y)/Z?

 

[SketchHurricane]

By early next week, I'll have vids out the wazoo.

Pluckyou was an awesome trailer, btw. You still making a Brawl+ compilation?

So apparently I was quite wrong about shield stun. Here is what Magus had to say about it:

So I'm guessing all that means that we should decrease the shield stun a bit from 3/5? I mean, this is how I felt anyway. 2/4 perhaps?

Also, I just tried out the shorthop/dashspeed/fastfall code. Ganon looks really funny with a faster dash Shorter shorthops of course feel better overall, but at .9 a few autocancels are gone so far. DK just barley can get off a double bair though. I'll mess with it some more.

 

[kupo15]

Are these values the ones in vanilla Brawl, or with the new shield stun code at 3/5? I think it has to be vanilla by the values I see now.

Also, since I am assuming these are vanilla brawl values, wouldnt we only want to increase the shield stun of these moves very slightly by only in most cases by like 2?

That puts most shield stun values at greater than or equal to 0. If so, by what percentage are we increasing shieldstun with 3/5?

There is no vanilla brawl default for shield stun so 3/5 is our added values.

I have also come a sad realization that making a horizontal air momentum code will be bad for this game not by its intention, but by its affect based on how it must be coded. There is nothing to the game has to work with to make this code the same way the majority of the codes we have been doing. This would require added a mechanic not in the game which as we saw with MAD, has negative affects. So I think the best alternative to this problem is to weaken the DI slightly because I know I'm sick of how good it is to do with little effort

 

[shanus]

There is no vanilla brawl default for shield stun so 3/5 is our added values.

I have also come a sad realization that making a horizontal air momentum code will be bad for this game not by its intention, but by its affect based on how it must be coded. There is nothing to the game has to work with to make this code the same way the majority of the codes we have been doing. This would require added a mechanic not in the game which as we saw with MAD, has negative affects. So I think the best alternative to this problem is to weaken the DI slightly because I know I'm sick of how good it is to do with little effort

Oh, then those values there feel not so pleasant then! I guess 2/4, 2.5/4.5 could be good place to start.

Also Sketch, thanks for the compliments. Yeah I will be working on a Brawl+ compilation once my friend is back in town. We will have a new videocam at school now so we should be able to collect footage for a few weeks and get something pretty fancy up and going.

 

[Frogles]

I always thought that vertical kills were fairly easy in VB though, so I'm not too concerned about the nerf to be honest.

I thought that too, but only in comparison to horizontal KOs, which have gotten buffed in Brawl+ thanks to increase of hitstun and decrease of hitlag.

 

[Alopex]

So those Shieldlock values were obtained by Magus using the 3/5 code?

Because they just look like the values of Melee shieldstun, and it seems from the text that that is exactly what he did.

If they were done using 3/5, then I'll make sure to test those shieldlocking moves more rigorously than others with every value I try, because some of those moves are looking pretty dangerous.

If they're from Melee, then it's useful to have them but it does not necessarily mean that is what will happen with Brawl+ shieldstun, so it's not something we should fear. But it would still make those attacks more worth looking into when testing Brawl+ values.

 

[kupo15]

So those Shieldlock values were obtained by Magus using the 3/5 code?

Because they just look like the values of Melee shieldstun, and it seems from the text that that is exactly what he did.

If they were done using 3/5, then I'll make sure to test those shieldlocking moves more rigorously than others with every value I try, because some of those moves are looking pretty dangerous.

If they're from Melee, then it's useful to have them but it does not necessarily mean that is what will happen with Brawl+ shieldstun, so it's not something we should fear.

Those are melee stuff. He hasn't tried brawl+ as far as I know

 

[Dark Sonic]

Peach:
D-smash
Shieldlock: +5 (Hit 1 -> Hit 2); etc

That's definitely melee.

 

[cobaltblue]

Testers

Alright here is a brief list I got so far of testers. I'm hopping to keep this with only people that actually main said character or at the very least know how the character should feel and play. * Means the person either has their friends test it or rarely plays them.

Bowser:
*Kupo15

Falco:
Osi

Falcon:
Kupo15
Shanus
Osi

Fox:
Osi
KayJay

King D3:
Kupo15
Osi

Diddy Kong:
Shanus
Osi*

DK:
Shadic
Osi

Ganon:
Kupo15
Shanus

Iceclimbers:
Osi

Jigglypuff:
Osi
Kayjay

Link:
Shadic
KayJay

Lucario:
Paprika Killer
Shanus
Osi*

Mario:
Kupo15
Osi

Marth:
*Osi

MetaKnight:
Paprika Killer
Shanus

Ness:
Kupo15
Shanus
Osi*

Olimar:
Shanus

Peach:
Osi
KayJay

pikachu:
Osi

Pit:
Kupo15
Osi

Rob:
*Shanus

Samus:
Kupo15
Osi

Sheik:
Osi

Sonic:
Kupo15
Osi*
KayJay

Wolf:
Osi

Yoshi:
Osi
Kayjay

Zelda:
Kayjay

ZSS:
Kupo15
Osi*

 

[storm92]

I could post videos, but it was be against CPUs. And the quality isn't the best but its workable and smooth. I could do against players if anyone wants to play me online.

Same for me mostly
Me and leaf might be able to do some vids later, but you never know with Wi-Fi.

EDIT: I want to be in that list =D
I test Fox, Falco, Kirby, Sheik, CF, Marth, Peach, DK, and Luigi extensively.
My friend tests Zelda and Yoshi.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Add me to the list (I'm getting an SD card today.

I play Sonic. But note that I'd mostly be able to test stuff on weekends (during the week I'd just have computers or Wifi friends to test it with).

 

[MookieRah]

So is anyone going to tackle an air speed mod code? Or would that nerf air resistance? In any case, the dash code is awesome, but it needs the air code too. Keep in mind though, if we nerf air resistance we will have to nerf horizontal knockback too, cause that is influenced by the resistance.

I wonder if air resistance will also affect jump speeds. By that I don't mean the amount of frames to leave the ground, but the amount of time it takes to reach the apex. Probably not, but here's hoping we can kill two birds with one stone.

 

[storm92]

What values are recommended for hitlag guys?

 

[zxeon]

What values are recommended for hitlag guys?

I use 50% break at 3.

 

[Jack Kieser]

There is no vanilla brawl default for shield stun so 3/5 is our added values.

I have also come a sad realization that making a horizontal air momentum code will be bad for this game not by its intention, but by its affect based on how it must be coded. There is nothing to the game has to work with to make this code the same way the majority of the codes we have been doing. This would require added a mechanic not in the game which as we saw with MAD, has negative affects. So I think the best alternative to this problem is to weaken the DI slightly because I know I'm sick of how good it is to do with little effort

Hey Kupo, I was thinking of this last night, and I've been meaning to ask you about it. You know how Puff has different air and land speeds? Maybe that's the key to Horizontal movement. Is it possible to isolate what makes puff move faster in the air and apply it to all characters? Just a thought / musing / suggestion.

 

[shanus]

Hey Kupo, I was thinking of this last night, and I've been meaning to ask you about it. You know how Puff has different air and land speeds? Maybe that's the key to Horizontal movement. Is it possible to isolate what makes puff move faster in the air and apply it to all characters? Just a thought / musing / suggestion.

That would be an interesting modifier to look at. Puff / Wario both must have some key values that are written to in common places that could maybe globally be reassigned. It might be line intense though because every character might need to assigned independently, but I'll let the code gurus work their magic because this is pure speculation on my end.

 

[Osi]

So is anyone going to tackle an air speed mod code? Or would that nerf air resistance? In any case, the dash code is awesome, but it needs the air code too. Keep in mind though, if we nerf air resistance we will have to nerf horizontal knockback too, cause that is influenced by the resistance.

I wonder if air resistance will also affect jump speeds. By that I don't mean the amount of frames to leave the ground, but the amount of time it takes to reach the apex. Probably not, but here's hoping we can kill two birds with one stone.

Almas is listed as tackling the dash jump momentum code right now. I'm eager to see what he comes up with.

 

[Revven]

That's just air speed though, it's not momentum based from their running.

PW already knows where air speed is and has messed with it before. See his Super Captain Falcon code for reference as to what he did. He enhanced Falcon's airspeed basically.

PW would already know how to do this, it would just be an effort to ask him.

 

[kupo15]

Hey Kupo, I was thinking of this last night, and I've been meaning to ask you about it. You know how Puff has different air and land speeds? Maybe that's the key to Horizontal movement. Is it possible to isolate what makes puff move faster in the air and apply it to all characters? Just a thought / musing / suggestion.

So you want everyone to be that mobile in the air instead of Wario and puff being unique? I'm not sure how to tackle this at all seeing how Almas said that the game does not remember anything when you go to jump

That's just air speed though, it's not momentum based from their running.

PW already knows where air speed is and has messed with it before. See his Super Captain Falcon code for reference as to what he did. He enhanced Falcon's airspeed basically.

PW would already know how to do this, it would just be an effort to ask him.

Oh so I guess I better go ask him

 

[shanus]

So you want everyone to be that mobile in the air instead of Wario and puff being unique? I'm not sure how to tackle this at all seeing how Almas said that the game does not remember anything when you go to jump


Oh so I guess I better go ask him

well we want everyone to be more air mobile. Maybe everyone see's a net air speed increase of 5%, 10% or whatever seems fitting?

Puff and Jiggs will still be uniquely faster, but i say if we increase ground speed by say 10%, we should increase air speed by at least 5%.

 

[Alopex]

So you want everyone to be that mobile in the air instead of Wario and puff being unique? I'm not sure how to tackle this at all seeing how Almas said that the game does not remember anything when you go to jump

It must remember SOMETHING, or else there'd be no RAR.

 

[Eaode]

Are Puff and Jiggs separate characters?

 

[IKOU]

Puff and Jiggs will still be uniquely faster,

Puff & Jiggs? arent they the same character?

Slightly more on topic, is it posible to make a fast fall during specials code?

 

[Eaode]

Puff & Jiggs? arent they the same character?

Slightly more on topic, is it posible to make a fast fall during specials code?

Hello Better SHL! :D

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

Wouldn't the downward gravity and fastfall codes affect specials as well?

 

[storm92]

Puff & Jiggs? arent they the same character?

Slightly more on topic, is it posible to make a fast fall during specials code?

I was actually hoping for one of these, if only for fun.
I miss SHL.

 

[MBlaze]

Seeing as I'm the only Mario user on this I'll be a Mario tester.

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, with the dash speed increase I need to decrease hitstun and shield stun.

 

[zxeon]

Yeah, with the dash speed increase I need to decrease hitstun and shield stun.

What's the dash speed increase for?