COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I've been using upward gravity on 0.95 and downward gravity on 1.3 and it works great. Jumps and Up-B's do seem a little higher, but gravity on the way down feels very nice.

I haven't used them in combination with the shorthop and fastfall codes yet though.

 

[shanus]

I say we just speed up the whole game instead ;-)

Lets not dip our fingers into too many things at once though. I think we should iron out the shield stun first and then touch on speed increases after.

Also, I never want hitstun less than 10%, it just seems perfect right now.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

upward gravity - affects recoveries, jump height and power
downward - fallspeed, vertical and horiz KOs (very slightly)

the reason grav mods make the game feel very tight and unfloaty is because the UPWARD gravity mod makes jumps faster and shorter, thus giving us more control over our actions. the short hop code is a good substitute for this, as it can make your short hop more controlled, however it isn't necessary for some characters.

 

[MBlaze]

So like, do we have everything we need Kupo? No more codes to wait on? :O

 

[kupo15]

So like, do we have everything we need Kupo? No more codes to wait on? :O

Horizontal air motion. Grab releases. Laser loccks. Ppl still need to report back for the new code. Make sure to check every recovery options for all characters. See if sonics air trip is gone and stuff

 

[zxeon]

Fix the buffer code.

 

[MookieRah]

Lets not dip our fingers into too many things at once though. I think we should iron out the shield stun first and then touch on speed increases after.

Screw that, I want fun speed activate. But seriously, the shield stun shouldn't take too long to iron out a "good" value. Tweaking it to perfection might take time, but it would also be something that we'd have to tweak with all the other codes set up as well seeing how in some way they all affect the bigger picture.

 

[shanus]

Screw that, I want fun speed activate. But seriously, the shield stun shouldn't take too long to iron out a "good" value. Tweaking it to perfection might take time, but it would also be something that we'd have to tweak with all the other codes set up as well seeing how in some way they all affect the bigger picture.

Yeah, I'm just saying a half decent value shouldnt taken very long at all (i.e. an hour or two), then go on from there. I'm actually really pleased so far with the speed and combo. I want an overall speed increase and a bit of boosted jump speed would be nice, but things are shaping up pretty awesome I'd say.

That and falcon is fun again. Just play against CPU ganondorf and see that you can sometimes chain 3 nairs to a knee from a downthrow. It'll bring an old reminiscent smile to your face.

editL 14 minutes till 24. I'm gonna miss like 100 posts during those 2 hours at this rate :O

 

[SketchHurricane]

I've been using upward gravity on 0.95 and downward gravity on 1.3 and it works great. Jumps and Up-B's do seem a little higher, but gravity on the way down feels very nice.

I haven't used them in combination with the shorthop and fastfall codes yet though.

Honestly, up grav < 1 is kind of a bad way to compensate for down grav's kill gimp, and IMO it's still easy enough to kill off the top. Forgive me if that's not why your using it, though.

If we ever get around to separating knockback for decay purposes, it would probably lead right into finding out how to restore upward killing. Again, though, I don't even think it's that big of a deal.

Screw that, I want fun speed activate.

LOL, how quotable

 

[shanus]

Um, quick question. Are we able to bring back non fully depressed all the way L or R shielding? Or is that impossible?

 

[kupo15]

editL 14 minutes till 24. I'm gonna miss like 100 posts during those 2 hours at this rate :O

ditto xD
10Jacks

 

[Alopex]

So after a lot more testing at various game speeds on Training Mode, 3/5 is actually the best value for the shield stun at the moment.

Things I tested:

- Once you start jabbing, the shieldstun prevents your jabs from being shieldgrabbed until all jabs have been executed. As SOON as that's done, you can be shieldgrabbed. This works for all AA (like ROB's) and AAA sequences (like Falcon's). You won't be able to use the jab shieldstun to set up a shieldstun grab. It did not seem to me like a shield break combo could be started from a jab.This works as Mookie suggested for jabs/weak hits.

- Captain Falcon's Nair can't be shieldgrabbed until both hits have connected. After that, you're a target. This works as Mookie suggested for weak aerials.

- Falcon's Fair (Knee) ending/landing lag and shieldstun end at pretty much the same time. With the shield push that the knee does, both characters are left at pretty much neutral positions. This works as Mookie suggested for strong aerials.

- Fox's Dair (Drill) endling/landing lag and shieldstun end pretty much at the same time. It was so close that it was really hard to actually tell who finished first. Seemed like both ended at a pretty much neutral position. This works as Mookie suggested for drills.

- All Smashes are shieldgrabbable, but some are harder than others because some Fsmashes have little ending lag. ROB is the main example here, with his Fsmash. With that one, you need to be faster than the ROB, or the ROB can jab. In 1/4 speed, it is easily visible that the shieldstun ends first, though, so it all takes at 1x speed are fast reflexes. This seems to be working fine.

- Sex kicks are something Mookie did not mention in his post. Sex kicks are special because they are particularly long lasting moves. From my tests on this setting, all strong sex kicks hits (first frames) will cause enough shieldstun and push to prevent shieldgrabs. In all cases, the shieldstun will end while the weak frames of the move are still out. In every case, hitting the shield with the weak hit of the sex kick (this includes G&W's sex box Fair) will result in a shieldgrab. The hit is just too weak to create enough shieldstun.
For me, this is fine, and is how it should work. Only the strong hit of a sex kick should be safe on a shield hit.


One interesting thing I noticed:
While testing ROB's Fsmash at 1/4 speed against King Dedede, I would mash the A button as Dedede right after the shield got hit. What I noticed was that there is a very very small window that lets you shieldgrab right after the shield gets hit by the Fsmash, nullifying the shieldstun. In all cases where I pulled that off, the timing was very hard and could only be pulled off at 1/4 speeds. I never succeeded at pulling it off at 1x speed and I would be surprised if anyone could do it with any degree of consistency.
If you missed that window, you could not shieldgrab until the proper shieldstun amount was over. At 1x speed, this is what always happens.
If you nailed the window, you would still get pushed by the attack and would shieldgrab while you're still sliding. Whether or not the slide caused you to miss the grab or not would depend on distance from the attacker.

I want to assure everyone that pulling off at 1x seems extremely difficult and is not something I've pulled off, not even once. If someone can, please record it, for I would be very impressed. I've barely even pulled it off at 1/4...still I thought it was worth pointing out.


WHEW!

So those are my findings. I haven't tested everything, obviously, but going from all that, 3/5 is looking good to go.


NOTE: I do not know how these results could be affected by a change in hitlag, since I was not using that code.
NOTE 2: This was with 1 buffer and auto-L codes on.

 

[Almas]

Thanks, Alopex. Here's a runspeed/short hop height modifier:

Short Hop Height/Run Speed Multiplier [Almas, 9 Lines]
045A9304 SHORTHOP
045A9308 RUNSPEED
C285765C 00000006
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
2C002F20 4082000C
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
2C002F08 4082000C
C3FE2004 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Not working, hold on 30 seconds.

Gah! This is annoying! I've seen the place in memory before! I played around with it! And now I can't find it...

 

[SketchHurricane]

Hmm, It seemed like 3 would be too high from the previous findings, but I'll definitely give 3/5 a whirl in my next round of playing.

That "just shield grab" you found is pretty interesting. As hard as it sounds to do, I don't think it would be useful though.

 

[Yeroc]

Alopex please forgive me, but which version were you using? I had a spell there where I couldn't get certain codes to work and people have been talking in relativistic terms for the past 3 pages and I'm completely lost.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Thanks, Alopex. Here's a runspeed/short hop height modifier:

Short Hop Height/Run Speed Multiplier [Almas, 9 Lines]
045A9304 SHORTHOP
045A9308 RUNSPEED
C285765C 00000006
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
2C002F20 4082000C
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
2C002F08 4082000C
C3FE2004 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Not working, hold on 30 seconds.

maybe what we need is a jump speed modifier?

 

[MookieRah]

Good ****. Now all that is left to do is do a good amount of human testing! If anything, my guess is we may have to knock things down a smidgen, seeing how it's easier for the person on offense to time his attacks than for the person on defense to attack immediately after the stun is over.

@Almas
Make sure you designate what modifies what when you get the code to work, cause I have no clue what value to modify in that code.

 

[poklin]

Alopex can you post the code with the right inputs? i'm terrible at all this math stuff lmao.

 

[shanus]

edit: jiang corrected me

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Alopex, I have a feeling that hitlag will make a difference as the attackee will get out of their attacks faster than the shieldstun length side i think.

nope, hitlag affects shieldstun hitlag also.

 

[Alopex]

Alopex please forgive me, but which version were you using? I had a spell there where I couldn't get certain codes to work and people have been talking in relativistic terms for the past 3 pages and I'm completely lost.

Shield Stun [spunit262] 12 lines Vers 1
C28753EC 00000007
FC20F890 4800000D
XXXXXXXX YYYYYYYY
839F007C A39C0006
2C1C001A 41820014
7F8802A6 C03C0000
C05C0004 FC2117FA
FC00081E 00000000
C277F78C 00000003
2C1C001D 41820008
B39E0006 2C1CFFFF
60000000 00000000

That's the fixed version of beta 5, which we now just call "Version 1". It's the first shield stun code in kupo's OP.

X value is 3 and Y value is 5.

EDIT:
Complete code with the 3/5 input:

C28753EC 00000007
FC20F890 4800000D
40400000 40A00000
839F007C A39C0006
2C1C001A 41820014
7F8802A6 C03C0000
C05C0004 FC2117FA
FC00081E 00000000
C277F78C 00000003
2C1C001D 41820008
B39E0006 2C1CFFFF
60000000 00000000

Enjoy, and tell me how it feels for you!

Hmm, It seemed like 3 would be too high from the previous findings, but I'll definitely give 3/5 a whirl in my next round of playing.

That "just shield grab" you found is pretty interesting. As hard as it sounds to do, I don't think it would be useful though.

At first, indeed it did seem like SLIGHTLY too much. That was because I didn't test it enough on 1/4 speed to get accurate frame data. After I did that, I noticed that everything that seemed like a bit too much before was just my fingers being too slow, since I'm testing alone.

To be honest, I'm going to call that instant grab the Powergrab, because it's every bit as hard as timing a Powershield against a physical attack in Melee...
It's not really useful, but it is interesting.

Good ****. Now all that is left to do is do a good amount of human testing! If anything, my guess is we may have to knock things down a smidgen, seeing how it's easier for the person on offense to time his attacks than for the person on defense to attack immediately after the stun is over.

I wish I had someone to play with.

In any case, when the human testing phase begins, be sure to look into the drills and Smashes. Fox's Fsmash and Dair are good places to start the human testing, as they're both walking the line in terms of ending as soon as shieldstun ends.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^We don't want Fox's f-smash to be safe on block do we? I mean, it's cool if it pushes them back really far and that's what makes it safe, but them being in shield stun the whole time would be pretty ridiculous.

 

[Alopex]

Fox's Fsmash is special because it causes pushback, but Fox goes forward pretty much the exact same amount. The end result is that Fox and the shielder are face-to-face once everything is said and done. Of course, the character's grab range matters.

Against Falcon, Fox is safely out of shieldgrab range. Against Dedede, not so much.

Fox's Fsmash has enough ending lag that it is shieldgrabbable with decent timing. I didn't really have a problem doing it with Dedede.

Under no circumstances can Fox follow up his Fsmash on a shield unless the shielder messes up.

It's not hard for Fox to jab the shielder as he attempts to grab if the shielder wasn't quick enough. This is fine for me, because the shielder does have technically a safe frame advantage when you look at 1/4 speed, so they just need reflexes at 1x.

EDIT: The reason I mentioned it above was because of what Mookie said: that the offender likely has an easier time reacting. And slow reaction gives Fox an advantage here, the only question is whether it's too much or not. I think it'll be fine, but human testing will tell.
But Fox is still a good place to start that human testing since his advantages with the Fsmash and drill rely on the shielder having slower reflexes.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^I know cause Falco had the same thing in melee, and if you spaced the f-smash correctly it hit their shield near the end of it, getting the same push back, but without Falco going as far foward (Fox had it too, but I see Falco's do it more often since they don't have Fox's ridiculous upsmash lol).


But I see what your saying. It's not technically safe on block, but it's pretty close to it.

 

[Almas]

Okay, I've found the value for Dash. Now just to get the one for walking.

 

[Alopex]

Well, I went back and did some more testing and Fox's Fsmash is definitely shieldgrabbable by anyone if they're fast enough. With proper spacing, yes Fox's Fsmash will cause enough push to keep him very safe from retaliation, leaving everything neutral. I think that's a good reward for good spacing. Poor spacing will result in a shieldgrab.


Now, Fox's drill. It's impossible to shieldgrab a Fox during or after it. Plain and simple, Fox can jab sooner than the shieldgrab grabs, and thus beats it out a la old school Melee SHFFL way.
HOWEVER, ANY follow-up after the drill CAN be dodged or rolled away from. I tried this over and over, and I could always dodge/roll before any of Fox's jabs hit me after the drill.

This means that Fox's drill is safe on shield hit, but is not a setup for shield pressure. It does give Fox a slight advantage here, but nothing major.

 

[zxeon]

Why isn't there a more detailed explaination of the shield stun code in the first post? Can someone explain how to work the new shield stun code?

 

[Almas]

I'm quite frustrated by this. I believe for some obscure reason, walk speed and dash speed are governed by different sections of the code. I'm quite able to remotely modify someone's walk speed (setting it to a fixed value), but attempts to modify it cause crashes and I don't have the patience to solve the issue.

That said, here is a (hopefully functional) dash speed/shorthop code:

Short Hop Height/Dash Speed Multiplier [Almas, 9 Lines]
045A9304 SHORTHOP
045A9308 DASHDASH
C285765C 00000006
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
2C002F20 4082000C
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
2C002F00 4082000C
C3FE2004 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Short Hop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed Multiplier [Almas, 12 Lines]
045A9300 FASTFALL
045A9304 SHORTHOP
045A9308 DASHDASH
C285765C 00000006
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
2C002F20 4082000C
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
2C002F00 4082000C
C3FE2004 EC3F0072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C3FE1FFC EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Use floats, defaulting both to 3F800000. Shorthop recommended range 0.8->1, Fastfall recommended range 1->1.2, Dash recommended range ???

Here is the updated Spunit's Shieldstun with multiply 3, add 5.

Shield Stun 2.0[spunit262] 10 lines Vers 2
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 809F007C
A0840006 2C04001A
41820014 1F9C0003
3B9C0005 38800001
7F9C23D6 00000000
C277F78C 00000003
2C1C001D 41820008
B39E0006 2C1CFFFF
60000000 00000000

I believe Spunit wrote it like this to conserve line space compared to his other version, but this should be valid and (hopefully) glitch free.

 

[GPDP]

Alopex, what decay system were you using, by the way?

 

[MuBa]

Holy crap the new Triple Jump Glitch Fix is 26 lines long!

 

[Alopex]

@Zxeon:
Just use the Version 1 code, the first one there. It's the same as the old beta 5 code, except it's fixed so that
-There is no more PS glitch
-The Y value (additive) works now.

So just use that, as it's the one I'm using and did all this testing on.


@Mookie

I actually found something I disagree with in terms of your goal for shieldstun.

Strong aerials.

3. Strong aerials
Strong aerials should have a good deal of stun. They should have enough stun to where shield grabbing could not occur; however, it doesn't put the defensive player in too bad of a position. Strong aerials, in my opinion, should force a reset on your opponent, in which once you land both players are on roughly equal footing. This actually ties in with my earlier example.

I am playing Falcon. I get inside my opponents reach and land a knee. He shields it. I land in front of his face, but both my attacks lag and his shield lag has ended. We are now in roughly an equal position barring character differences. The main point of this is that Falcon has a great jab game, and I could then bring in jabs and start the jab game going.

See, by giving a strong aerial enough shieldstun to have a neutral outcome, we'd essentially be making a strong aerial safe on shield block.

I don't think that's a good idea.

There are a lot of strong aerials that can be spammed with no fear if strong aerials "reset the opponent". As Ness, I could use Bairs all day and not be afraid because no matter what, I'll be safe - at worst, it'll be neutral, at beat I'll hit the opponent. No real drawback.

This gives the offense a lot of power.

If you miss with a powerful move, you should be punished, not given a reset. What's the risk in using a strong move, then? Neutrality means no punishment, because the worst possible scenario would be the attacker rolling/jumping away or dodging.

In my opinion, shield stun should end a bit before the strong aerial ends. This will allow the shielder to shield grab anyone who lands after a strong aerial, but will prevent shieldgrabbing the attacker in the air since there will be enough shieldstun and push to space it out. However, the shielder would be able to then rush in with a dash-shield grab to punish the landing and this would force both the attacker and the shielder to need to react fast:

- If the shielder reacts fast, he gets to punish the missed strong aerial. If he's slow to react, everything is neutral.
- If the attacker reacts fast, everything is neutral OR the attacker can try to turn things his favor with mindgames or dodges. It's a risk, but the effort could be rewarded. React slow, and he is punished.

What you suggested just takes all the risk out of the strong aerial Mookie, and puts the defense at another disadvantage because it allows strong aerials to be spammed without real repercussion.

You see what I'm getting at?

With that, I think a slight reduction of the 3/5 MIGHT be necessary. We'll see. I'll keep testing.

Alopex, what decay system were you using, by the way?

I'm not. I have no decay-effecting code on. But all my testing is done on Training Mode, so it's effectively using a No Decay system.

 

[MBlaze]

Know what guys? Idk what to do with all these codes and crap and it seems to get more complicated as it goes along so I'll come back from time to time to check up on this and test codes but really, since I'm playing Brawl+ a lot it's screwing up my Brawl skills and the official code set isn't even out yet.

So yeah, I'll just be using txt files now and I'll be testing a lot less to keep my skill up, sorry. But at least I'll still be around to help out.

 

[maticMan94]

I think that new triple jump glitch sent me over the limit, my game didn't load. Is that what happens when you have too many lines?

 

[zxeon]

I need instructions on how to use the Shieldstun 7.2 the one with the X, Y, and Z values.

 

[Blank Mauser]

See, by giving a strong aerial enough shieldstun to have a neutral outcome, we'd essentially be making a strong aerial safe on shield block.

I don't think that's a good idea.

There are a lot of strong aerials that can be spammed with no fear if strong aerials "reset the opponent". As Ness, I could use Bairs all day and now be afraid because no matter what, I'll be safe.

This gives the offense a lot of power.

If you miss with a powerful move, you should be punished, not given a reset. What's the risk in using a strong move, then? Neutrality means no punishment, because the worst possible scenario would be the attacker rolling/jumping away.

Well not necessarily. Strong aerials are usually strong because they are slow. if a person doesn't react fast enough to punish someone who risks these slow powerful attacks and instead shield them, I agree with Mookie that the best they should get is a neutral position.

Overall though, it just depends on whether you are more for rewarding the defensive person (Who just has to react fast enough to shield) or the attacker who is risking a slow attack that is most likely easily beat out by another move.

 

[Alopex]

I'm going to assume that means you ignored my reply, Zxeon?

The Version 1 code is great, and I haven't really heard anyone say what benefits the 7.2 has over the Version 1... and the Version 1 is easy to work with, no need for lots of math.


EDIT:

Overall though, it just depends on whether you are more for rewarding the defensive person (Who just has to react fast enough to shield) or the attacker who is risking a slow attack that is most likely easily beat out by another move.

There are still a lot of strong aerials that aren't slow at all.

The list includes mostly Bairs, of course. And Bairs already get spammed continuously now when they are at a huge shieldgrabbing risk.

What will happen when that risk is gone?

 

[Almas]

With the old shieldstun code, you put floating hex values into XXXXXXXX and YYYYYYYY. Let's call the normal amount of hitstun you would receive S, the value stored in XXXXXXXX X, and the value stored in YYYYYYYY Y. So normally, S=S (shieldstun = shieldstun).

With the code active, S=(S*X)+Y. Shieldstun is normal shieldstun multiplied by X, then Y is added on top.

With the new code, we have XXXX, YYYY and ZZZZ, where all four are integer hex values. So, for example, 0001 is 1, 0010 is 16 and 010F is 271.

Now, S=(S*X+Z)/Y. The normal shieldstun is multiplied by X, then Z is added, then the result of these sums is divided by Y.

The new code can achieve virtually any set of values that the old one could, and takes up less lines.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I think that new triple jump glitch sent me over the limit, my game didn't load. Is that what happens when you have too many lines?

yup. i'm getting the same thing. we're probably going to have to combine some codes.

 

[zxeon]

I'm going to assume that means you ignored my reply, Zxeon?

The Version 1 code is great, and I haven't really heard anyone say what benefits the 7.2 has over the Version 1... and the Version 1 is easy to work with, no need for lots of math.

Sorry about that. For some reason I didn't see your post.

 

[Alopex]

So it seems to me like testing shieldstun values should be done using Version 1 since it's easy to figure out the values, but the final shieldstun should be the 7.2 since it takes up less lines.

I mean, there's no real advantage in terms of testing is there?

So once a standard value is found with the Version 1, we replicate that using the 7.2 and make it final.