COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Deleted member]

MAD


BAD
paprika killer
kupo15
shadic

and the 2/3 is to prevent a 55% majority deciding

EDIT: thought about it, but this is thread that everybody is looking.

 

[kupo15]

Gah! Wait! Noooo!

Let's NOT use this thread for discussion of a standard!

Let's instead start a NEW thread where we discuss each code one by one every week.

Starting that discussing here will just severely clutter up this thread, and this should be a thread for testing and coding, not tallying.

Yes?

Duh I should have realized that. Take this voting away from my thread

 

[GPDP]

BAD is rad.

 

[shanus]

As much as i love wavedashing and miss it greatly, i support BAD.

 

[shanus]

Back to discussion at hand then. codes.

uh.... go?

Shieldstun lower, what else were we talking about?

 

[Dan_X]

I'm going to have to agree with Mookie. There's really no need to spend so much effort testing decreased stale systems when we can just remove it. Honestly, even with 1/2 decay, I find moves become way to weak way to fast. I think it's a problem when at 150% my aerials don't kill people as Sheik. They'll only do so at a certain hitbox, and if it's not already stale.

I think you guys are disecting the game to much, assuming that such a small change would have drastic effects. I really think no decay would improve the game. DI is still hugely important, so things can still be avoided. At the same time, this would help negate tilt spam, as the knockback won't decrease.

1 line isn't a bad price to pay either. We should consider this more...

 

[GPDP]

Thoughts on shieldstun and the decay system would be appreciated.

To reiterate, I vote a code is made to get rid of knockback decay to make our lives easier regarding shieldstun.

 

[kupo15]

Ill be trying out the no decay set. But if we can get a just damage stale, that would be cool!

Please take the voting to another thread! >_<

 

[Alopex]

I found another hex converter we can use since the one in the OP is down.

http://www.h-schmidt.net/FloatApplet/IEEE754.html

Kupo, maybe add that one to the OP? I dunno.

It's in English and German, too! So... I mean... I know Paprika is in the Netherlands, but... I dunno... similar enough, like Portuguese and Spanish, no?

 

[petre]

Gah! Wait! Noooo!

Let's NOT use this thread for discussion of a standard!

Let's instead start a NEW thread where we discuss each code one by one every week.

Starting that discussing here will just severely clutter up this thread, and this should be a thread for testing and coding, not tallying.

Yes?

well since the thread hasnt been made yet...

add me to the BAD list. GOOD MAD isnt that important, and the code line space could be used for much more important stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

it's already 6 vs 0 but I'll make another thread, so we can do ALC/MLC later there too.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

don't bother with the voting. just get some people with colored names like mookie and more really good players like shanus to advocate it and the lemmings will agree.

 

[Alopex]

Damage stale only is the ideal, since it fixes Utilt spams and keeps the Fox laser from being ridiculous with no decay.

Now, with no knockback decay, the shieldstun would behave the same for every hit of a specific move, regardless of staleness, yes?

So that's what we want to test?

Seems like No Decay would be best to get that testing started. It's the only way to guarantee uniform knockback on a move.

But then we'd have results that apply only to a No Decay system. This would be fine if a damage-only decay code came out, but how feasible is that code? Haven't the coders been trying it for a while?

 

[Deleted member]

don't bother with the voting. just get some people with colored names like mookie and more really good players like shanus to advocate it and the lemmings will agree.

except that half of us is very stubborn made the thread anyway so the "people with coloured names" can use that, other people have fresh opinions too you know.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I liked having fresh moves

 

[Deleted member]

it's not that you HAVE to use anything yet, I'm on the brawl decay still

 

[kupo15]

Now, with no knockback decay, the shieldstun would behave the same for every hit of a specific move, regardless of staleness, yes?

not true. Melee had shield stun decay also

 

[Deleted member]

WE ARE NOT REMAKING MELEE.

seriously if a mechanic works, use that instead of desperatly trying to use the melee version of it.

 

[MookieRah]

This isn't necessarily what is going on in this thread currently, but it's a good thing to bring up for this thread.

What is our goal for shield stun?

Right now people are just saying values that they like, but we need to define what our goal is. I have a pretty good idea of what I am personally striving for, and I will share it with you guys to see what you think.

1. Weak hits
Weak hits should have a decent amount of shield stun. Specifically jabs. There should be enough stun that one could not simply immediately shield grab a jab (which is why it's useless in Brawl) so there can be a jab game. Thankfully, without buffering, one cannot simply press the grab button and get a frame perfect grab after a jab. Basically, the stun that I would see as ideal is for a jab to be able to stun the shield for most of a full jab animation. This means that jabbing would be a mixup game.

Here is an example. I land an aerial on my opponents shield, and I am able to jab afterwards. This begins a mixup. At this point if I hit with the jab I would go straight into a grab (yay for hitstun). If I hit his shield, most of the time I would also go for a grab, as most people these days in Brawl aren't familiar with the jab game that melee had. If my opponent was familiar though, he could simply mix it up himself, shielding when he thinks I will jab, try to make jabs himself, performing an aerial if he thinks I'm about to go for a grab, or what have you. In any case, in high end play an elaborate dance would begin, one that I really miss from the melee days.

2. Average aerials
Average aerials should have some stun, but should have a decent possibility of being shield grabbed. These are typically combo starter moves, so shielding them should be the counter to them. Granted if you land one of these you are rewarded typically with a string of hits. Risk/reward, you get the idea.

3. Strong aerials
Strong aerials should have a good deal of stun. They should have enough stun to where shield grabbing could not occur; however, it doesn't put the defensive player in too bad of a position. Strong aerials, in my opinion, should force a reset on your opponent, in which once you land both players are on roughly equal footing. This actually ties in with my earlier example.

I am playing Falcon. I get inside my opponents reach and land a knee. He shields it. I land in front of his face, but both my attacks lag and his shield lag has ended. We are now in roughly an equal position barring character differences. The main point of this is that Falcon has a great jab game, and I could then bring in jabs and start the jab game going.

4. Drills
Drills should act in a similar way as a strong aerial. Since they have little lag most of the time the amount of shield stun they have should last roughly the same length as the aerial's attack lag.

These are ideal goals I'd like to see come into play. Now I know that you can't make all of the strong hits work exactly as I've stated, and you can't get all of the drills to work that way as well; however, if we can get it to where most characters could fit into this sort of ideal goal, then we'd be good to go. Most characters have either a big power hit or a drill, and a lot of characters have good close range options. Those who don't have close range options are typically not good at in-fighting, so their game revolves around preventing their opponents into getting into such a positional advantage. So yeah, I think if we try to make it work with guidelines such as these we can get a lot of depth out of a single change to the Brawl engine.

 

[Deleted member]

now someone is talking the right stuff here

 

[Alopex]

One more thing you should consider, Mookie, are the Smashes.

If you ask me, a blocked Smash should ALWAYS be shieldgrabbable. In other words, the shielder should be out of shieldstun before the attacker is out of Smash attack ending lag.

For some cases, this will be very hard.

Mainly because there are a decent number of smashes that make up for ending lag with starting lag. Case in point: ROB's Fsmash.

It's a strong move with very little ending lag. In most of the tests I've done so far, ROB ends his attack lag before the shieldstun is over.

Proportional to the power of the move, the shieldstun is appropriate. Proportionate to the ending lag of the move, it is too much stun time.

 

[Shell]

That sounds quite reasonable. What code will you work with? I haven't had any bugs with Spunit's 7.2.

 

[Unseen_Killa]

lots of stuff

I like the way this man thinks, he truely seems to be one of the most knowledgable here, defilently deserving of his SBR status.

Also, I feel this needs to be restated, we NEED at least a recommended code list for now. Two weeks ago I was fine, but now codes are getting really in depth, and I'm not sure what to use.

Perhaps in a structure similar to this:
Recommended code set:
*insert codes here

Code set in need of testing:
*insert codes here

Then varied, unsure of, controversial codesets put together/agreed upon by the community.

The recommended codeset should be what the general opinion of those who are very knowledgable about the game should put together. People like MookieRah (assuming he's even willing). Only reason I used him is because obvilously he popped in my mind first, and he is a great example.

Here's some red text so this posted doesn't get overlooked, lol.

 

[wazgood]

*mandatory agree with mookie lol

 

[MookieRah]

Well I JUST got MY actual Wii modded. My parents were using it all last semester and I have been playing on my friends' Wiis. The code I was using for shield stun apparently is the one that causes glitches, cause it froze my game after 10 seconds of a match. Also, I'm not sure if I like the shorter short hop code, or maybe using .9 is too much of an alteration. I'll try it a lil longer on multiple chars. Also, there needs to be a code that eliminates the code from functioning on certain characters, cause some chars have good short hop heights as is.

That said, what is the current value people are testing for the current shield stun code? I'd like to actually start testing this.

 

[.MaRiO]

Can I please debate with someone why MAD is better than BAD plz? lol

AIM: YrMomIsHuge
I really want to settle this lol

 

[storm92]

Also, I feel this needs to be restated, we NEED at least a reccomended code list for now.

We have kupo's code list, which is fairly well updated and agreed upon.

The main lean right now as far as I can see is:
ALC
Hitstun (8%, 9%, 10% depending on grav settings)
Downwards Gravity (1.1-1.3)
Lagless Edges v2
Dash Dancing
No ASL
Decay System (do we have a agreed upon value?)
No Tripping
Shield Stuff* WIP

Possibles
Stage Freeze Code
SH Mod
PT Codes
Buffer Mod
Dash Cancel

 

[kupo15]

EVERYONE THE SHIELD STUN IN THE OP IS FINE!!!! PLEASE DON'T EVER MENTION THE BORKED VERSION AGAIN!!!!! EVER

Well I JUST got MY actual Wii modded. My parents were using it all last semester and I have been playing on my friends' Wiis. The code I was using for shield stun apparently is the one that causes glitches, cause it froze my game after 10 seconds of a match. Also, I'm not sure if I like the shorter short hop code, or maybe using .9 is too much of an alteration. I'll try it a lil longer on multiple chars. Also, there needs to be a code that eliminates the code from functioning on certain characters, cause some chars have good short hop heights as is.

That said, what is the current value people are testing for the current shield stun code? I'd like to actually start testing this.

EDIT

This freeze was apparently caused by the current shield stun code. Is there another shield stun code that isn't bork?

Use version 1 and I look forward to your results. I agree with what you said about your ideals

 

[MookieRah]

@Kupo
The new decimal to hex converter link is this: http://www.etsimo.uniovi.es/~antonio/uned/ieee754/IEEE-754.html

Wait, if I use version 1 I can't add any frames to weak hits. Is there not a better code than that? Also, I was wrong with that edit, it wasn't version 1 or version two. It was a 10 line code of version 2 O_o. Very strange.

INTERNETS ARE GO!

 

[Unseen_Killa]

We have kupo's code list, which is fairly well updated and agreed upon.

The main lean right now as far as I can see is:
ALC
Hitstun (8%, 9%, 10% depending on grav settings)
Downwards Gravity (1.1-1.3)
Lagless Edges v2
Dash Dancing
No ASL
Decay System (do we have a agreed upon value?)
No Tripping
Shield Stuff* WIP

Possibles
Stage Freeze Code
SH Mod
PT Codes
Buffer Mod
Dash Cancel

Well then, something like this should be put in the main post instead of scrambling through a ****load of pages XD.

 

[kupo15]

@Kupo
The new decimal to hex converter link is this: http://www.etsimo.uniovi.es/~antonio/uned/ieee754/IEEE-754.html

Wait, if I use version 1 I can't add any frames to weak hits. Is there not a better code than that? Also, I was wrong with that edit, it wasn't version 1 or version two. It was a 10 line code of version 2 O_o. Very strange.

INTERNETS ARE GO!

you can add frames to weak hits. Its no different than the code where the weak hits affected kb. XXXX is the mult and YYY is the addition

Well then, something like this should be put in the main post instead of scrambling through a ****load of pages XD.

got it

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Can I please debate with someone why MAD is better than BAD plz? lol

AIM: YrMomIsHuge
I really want to settle this lol

the issue has been debated to death.

check this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201526&highlight=Hacks

 

[MookieRah]

@Kupo
Thanks man, I'll get to working on that. I'm going to test out my other settings first and then tackle shield stun.

EDIT
I take that back, apparently with the old shield stun codes I go over the limit, lol. I'll plug in some shield stun values then. Be sure to update the OP with how to use version 1 of the code, and take down version 2 if it freezes.

 

[Starscream]

Man, Mookie is so full of ****... haha nah I'm just kidding. Good post, good post. Those seem like some excellent goals to look for in shield stun.

Since you mentioned "without buffering" in your jab game points, how many frames of buffering are you using?

And I full support a damage only decay system, I've been saying this for so long and getting little attention. At least it's getting some steam now.

the HAD would just reduce your BAD to one. with brawl's floaty nature i don't think this will work too well.

Why are people still saying Brawl is floaty or that we should have codes cater to how floaty Brawl used to be? If it's still so floaty then change it! The game is so much more fun at 1.25 downward gravity. Hell, most characters are only able to use 1 BAD in a jump with a higher gravity setting anyways, it completely takes away the spamminess of it. Anyone that plays with 1.25 gravity or higher will tell you that it really isn't an issue.

 

[Dan_X]

What Value have you guys been using for the Lagless edges code? I want the fastest value that will most closely replicate the older, longer lagless edges codes.

Right now, i'm using 40800000 as my value. What have you guys been using?

P.S. I don't care if the animation looks funny because it's so fast, so long as it works the right way it's fine by me.

 

[storm92]

What Value have you guys been using for the Lagless edges code? I want the fastest value that will most closely replicate the older, longer lagless edges codes.

Right now, i'm using 40800000 as my value. What have you guys been using?

P.S. I don't care if the animation looks funny because it's so fast, so long as it works the right way it's fine by me.

I've been using yours as well.

 

[Alopex]

If you want some starting values on the version 1 shieldstun code, Mookie, right now I'm working with 2 for X and 4.5 for Y.

I tested 1.5/3 and 2/4 before those. Both were too little for weak hits so now I'm trying this one out. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Shadic]

Anyone that plays with 1.25 gravity or higher will tell you that it really isn't an issue.

Anybody who plays with 1.25 gravity or higher should tell you that killing Link isn't an issue, either.

 

[MookieRah]

Wow, we need to look into the hitlag. LOL. I was using what I think Almas proposed and I'm actually able to move before my opponent flies off. I don't know if that is bad, but it's certainly different. It's awesome to me, but yeah, what do you guys think?

 

[Dan_X]

I've been using yours as well.

nice!!!