COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[MookieRah]

@Alopex
HAHA! Awesome, cause I just tried 2/2 and that wasn't nearly enough added. I'm trying 2/4 now and see how that goes. I think we might need a lil bit more than 2 for the multiplier, I hit Peaches shield with a knee and I'm think she could have easily shield grabbed it, but for now I'm working on weak hits.

 

[Starscream]

Wow, we need to look into the hitlag. LOL. I was using what I think Almas proposed and I'm actually able to move before my opponent flies off. I don't know if that is bad, but it's certainly different. It's awesome to me, but yeah, what do you guys think?

What attack were you using specifically? This really only happens with Falcon's knee and Zelda's kicks. Attacks that have like an electrical effect on them seem to have another hitlag that applies to the character being attacked. I would definitely advocate using something like 50% with a break point of 2 (works great) but I think that issue with the elemental hitlag needs to be addressed. Lucas can hit multiple times with his downsmash because of it and I don't know if you can SDI out of it.

Anybody who plays with 1.25 gravity or higher should tell you that killing Link isn't an issue, either.

DI better?

 

[storm92]

Zelda's Usmash...something weird happens with hitlag and gravity.

 

[GPDP]

I think maybe you should start testing without adding anything for weak hits for now.

 

[MookieRah]

OK, I think 2/4 wasn't quite enough for either value. I'm trying 2.2/4.5 for shield stun and see how that goes. This is all testing on comps mind you, but basically I'm going to play with some friends later tonight so hopefully I'll find a good start off point so we can do some more intricate testing.

Changes I've made:
Increased short hop height from .9 to .95 because it made Marth's double fair impossible.

Decreased downward gravity from 1.2 to 1.15 for basically the same reason as above, but also because this would make it easier for characters to use their second jump to get back onto the stage.

I'll post my full code list later, but it's very similar to Almas's post from earlier, just making adjustments that I see fit. BTW the upward grav modifier set to 1.1 DOES make a big difference in the speed of jumps and aerials. That and the fact that I have fastfalls set to 120% speed along with downward grav makes this game a lot more fast paced. Heck, if someone made a run speed increase mod it would be as fast paced as melee, assuming that the air resistance is a reduction in speed and not it's own static variable.

@Starscream
Earlier you mentioned about buffering. I have it on 0, but if they made a buffering code that wasn't glitchy then I think a buffer of 3 or less would be fine by me. As long as the game didn't hold your hand and gave you frame perfect stuff for free I'm down with it.

 

[shanus]

Mookie, if you are testing shieldstun like I was, you can test shield grabs pretty easily using two controllers. one hand on control stick + cstick to the be the attacker (can do dash attack and aerials) the other gets to be a shield grabber. Works okay to test the values. I also completely agree with all of the points you established earlier and you wrote way better than I ever could have.

If any of you want me to test any new code values feel free to post a gct with them as I cannot make them on this computer :-\.



Also, just a logistics thing: If any of you guys are in the providence or boston area, we should really try and start building a strong brawl+ scene there. I know my entire group of friends are making the switch but we should try and build it up. /end selling

 

[Shadic]

DI better?

Link falls too fast, which makes the multiplier affect him the most, and has the worst recovery in the game. DI isn't going to help him recover.

 

[Alopex]

Yeah, I'm testing everything using 2 controllers and 1/4 speed on Training mode (since there's no decay there anyway...).

The only thing I can't test like this are drills. EDIT: Actually, I can. Go me!

By the way Mookie, right now I'm testing 2.5 and 5.

3 and 5 was a bit much. But just a bit. I think I'm on the right track.

 

[GPDP]

The best way to test IMO is with two nunchuks, or a GC controller and a nunchuk on the right hand.

 

[MookieRah]

@Shadic
What codes are you using? I have some slightly unorthodox stuff going on and Link seems to be pretty good IMO.

 

[kupo15]

There is an update to the shield stun code Almas requested

 

[Shadic]

I'm using 1.05 upwards, 1.25 downwards.

ALC and Hitstun greatly helps Link, but he certainly didn't need the extra gravity.

 

[MookieRah]

OK, I don't advocate any downwards/upwards gravity beyond 1.1 now. I also don't lower the height up short hops, cause of this, although if there was a code where I could raise specific short hops and lower them this could be fixed. It's impossible for Marth to do a double fair without all of his normal short hop and very little gravity changes. I think we should speed up the game, but it shouldn't take apart a characters existing abilities. This would severely nerf Marth players as double fairing is a staple.

With my current settings (100% full hop, 1.1 up and down grav, 130% fall speed) it is as hard to do a double fair as it was in melee. In other words, it's a skill, but it's not hard to learn. That's what we should strive for. If a code allows me to increase marth's short hop a little, and anyone else who needs it, then I would say you can turn up the gravity, but until then we need to not go to crazy on it.

 

[GPDP]

I think we should speed up the game, but it shouldn't take apart a characters existing abilities.

My sentiments exactly, which is why I advocate finding a way to speed up jumps and aerials on the way up as well as on the way down, without somehow messing with recoveries or jump height.

 

[shanus]

OK, I don't advocate any downwards/upwards gravity beyond 1.1 now. I also don't lower the height up short hops, cause of this, although if there was a code where I could raise specific short hops and lower them this could be fixed. It's impossible for Marth to do a double fair without all of his normal short hop and very little gravity changes. I think we should speed up the game, but it shouldn't take apart a characters existing abilities. This would severely nerf Marth players as double fairing is a staple.

With my current settings (100% full hop, 1.1 up and down grav, 130% fall speed) it is as hard to do a double fair as it was in melee. In other words, it's a skill, but it's not hard to learn. That's what we should strive for. If a code allows me to increase marth's short hop a little, and anyone else who needs it, then I would say you can turn up the gravity, but until then we need to not go to crazy on it.

wow, 130% fall speed? I tested 1.1 and I really enjoyed it as falcon. Chained nairs and uairs if you do it right. i guess ill have to try at some point

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

Try an upward gravity value less than 1, like 0.9 or 0.95. I believe a value >1 for upward gravity adds gravity on upward motion, effectively shortening your jumps. If you take it away slightly, it should slightly increase your jump height, therefore counteracting the slight gimping of the downward gravity.

 

[Almas]

A runspeed increase code should be trivial to write - it's based off the same codes as the jump/fastfall ones. Tell me, do you want dashing only, or all ground-based movement sped up?

Lol sonic.

EDIT: And yeah, those shorthop codes can also be made character specific (at approx. 1 line per character), but it'll take some work on my part.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i really like the short hop code because it makes short hops really short and easy to control. i wouldn't turn it off until we had some jump acceleration code :/

 

[MookieRah]

Well the upwards downwards grav mod changes don't affect them that much. The benefit of speed is better than slight differences with recoveries IMO. Something like 1.2 grav isn't that painful for a lot of the cast, as I was playing Link in that setting and the speed helped him as much as it hurt him.

do you want dashing only, or all ground-based movement sped up?

All ground speed. Also, I know about air resistance, but is that a percentage modifier to the ground speed or a separate value altogether? Hopefully it's just a modifier, and if that is the case then it would universally speed up the movement in game if you sped up just the ground speed.

wow, 130% fall speed? I tested 1.1 and I really enjoyed it as falcon. Chained nairs and uairs if you do it right. i guess ill have to try at some point

It works good for what I need it for, which is getting to the ground fast. It might be a bit too much, but I ramped it up because I lowered the up/downward grav so Marth could double fair.

 

[shanus]

A runspeed increase code should be trivial to write - it's based off the same codes as the jump/fastfall ones. Tell me, do you want dashing only, or all ground-based movement sped up?

Lol sonic.

EDIT: And yeah, those shorthop codes can also be made character specific (at approx. 1 line per character), but it'll take some work on my part.

I would rather not have a runspeed increase only. I woudld more just prefer a total gameplay speed increase haha. Like set brawl to play at like 1.1 speed.

 

[MBlaze]

I say we go with the 10% hitstun option, any lower and it wont be much different from regular Brawl. And I can tell you guys that because I'm probably one of the very few here who play both competitively.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So umm...I haven't checked this thread in a few days so I'll just ask.

Has anyone found a way to keep running momentum when performing a jump (furthermore, has this mechanic even been given some kind of short hand name yet?)

 

[shanus]

All ground speed. Also, I know about air resistance, but is that a percentage modifier to the ground speed or a separate value altogether? Hopefully it's just a modifier, and if that is the case then it would universally speed up the movement in game if you sped up just the ground speed.

If that works that would be mighty nifty.


Man I keep watching videos of SS's falcon and it makes me miss moonwalking . I used to have so much fun with that.

 

[Almas]

That's on my long, long, list of codes, Sonic. I have to admit it's somewhere later than I would personally like, since I have data collection etc. to do to get others done.

EDIT: I'm still not certain how it all works - there's a set of variables which define almost all movement (save those caused by attacks). I haven't put a set label on what does what yet - but there's pretty much one for everything.

 

[spunit262]

Can I request a change to how you state the value for shield stun, and Kupo can you change the Ys in the float version to Zs. X/Y looks to much like a fraction.

X+Z for the float version.
X/Y+Z for the integer divide add.
X+Z/Y for the integer add divide.

 

[Starscream]

Err, why are people messing with upwards gravity at all? I use only 1.25 downwards gravity and with buffer set to 1 everyone still has their old techniques. Even at buffer 0 Marth's double Fair is easy. Nobody's jump heights change they just fall faster. Why does this need to be tinkered around with so much?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

upward 1.1 ****s up sonic's recovery. the reason i like the shorthop code is because i can let the upgravity be and have nice, tight short hops.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I think Mookie is on the right track with SS and I'll leave it up to him as far as a recommended value goes. However...

One thing that I really like about Brawl is that breaking shields is quite a viable strategy, as it's faster to destroy a shield than in melee. At the same time the shields recharge faster. I have seen some people talking about lowering the speed at which shields recover, and that would be a terrible idea. Again, we can only nerf the defensive options so much before we have a completely offensive game, and if you make it to where people are shield breaking left and right it would just be DUMB. Honestly, there isn't a need to tweak this, cause it's working fine as is.

In the entire time that Brawl has been out, I've had my shield broken once, maybetwice in a serious match. There is no doubt in my mind that shield regen could be slightly lowered to beneficial effect. Having said that, I'll in no way be disapointed if nothing is done to regen - I think Brawl operates just fine without a shield break game, but it could definitely stand to be at least a small threat. No one said we have to go overboard with it. The fact of the matter is that even with SS in place, breaking is far from an issue. I'm even inclined to say that with SS in place, people will actually be shielding less than in VB, so the break game will be even more non-existant. It seriously does not hurt to start messing with some lower regen rates, and since you've shown good judgment on the shield in your earlier breakdown, I'd love to see you tackle regen as well.

My sentiments exactly, which is why I advocate finding a way to speed up jumps and aerials on the way up as well as on the way down, without somehow messing with recoveries or jump height.

Didn't Almas (forgive me if I'm wrong) write a post that basically outlined the steps necessary to do this? If that was you, Almas, are you going to pick that effort back up? I'll even try to dig up that post for ya...

Try an upward gravity value less than 1, like 0.9 or 0.95. I believe a value >1 for upward gravity adds gravity on upward motion, effectively shortening your jumps. If you take it away slightly, it should slightly increase your jump height, therefore counteracting the slight gimping of the downward gravity.

Problem with that is, people are actually trying to lower short hops, not make the higher. Unless, of course, you're talking about down grav + (up grav < 1) + shorter short hop code, which would actually achieve your goal. I'm pretty sure some of you have been using this combo, no?

 

[MookieRah]

I use only 1.25 downwards gravity and with buffer set to 1 everyone still has their old techniques.

upward 1.1 ****s up sonic's recovery. the reason i like the shorthop code is because i can let the upgravity be and have nice, tight short hops.

Good enough reasons for me to drop upward.

Didn't Almas (forgive me if I'm wrong) write a post that basically outlined the steps necessary to do this? If that was you, Almas, are you going to pick that effort back up? I'll even try to dig up that post for ya...

Almas just mentioned that again when I asked about a universal run speed mod code. He pretty much said there was a speed increase modifier for pretty much everything.

Problem with that is, people are actually trying to lower short hops, not make the higher. Unless, of course, you're talking about down grav + (up grav < 1) + shorter short hop code, which would actually achieve your goal. I'm pretty sure some of you have been using this combo, no?

You know, that is genious. If you decrease the upward grav to counteract the downward grav and fix the short hop then you would make up for any loss in recovery from falling faster. I think that's a really good idea actually!

 

[kupo15]

Triple Jump Glitch Added!! Test Asap!!

 

[Almas]

I forgot to mention that of all the variables, they don't affect Up+B stuff either. Which is why speeding up jumps without affecting their height isn't too easy. I mean, in theory I could do it but you'd end up getting half height from most Up+Bs.

I honestly don't think upwards 1.1 nerfs anyones recovery. Sonic can still recover for miles.

 

[shanus]

Good enough reasons for me to drop upward.
Almas just mentioned that again when I asked about a universal run speed mod code. He pretty much said there was a speed increase modifier for pretty much everything.

You know, that is genious. If you decrease the upward grav to counteract the downward grav and fix the short hop then you would make up for any loss in recovery from falling faster. I think that's a really good idea actually!

Except won't that still nerf up+b recoveries?

Edit: Almas beat me to it

 

[MookieRah]

Nope, you are decreasing the gravity when moving upwards. If anything it would make up+b recoveries better, but that is being done to offset the faster falling due to downward grav.

 

[zxeon]

Triple Jump Glitch Added!! Test Asap!!

My pleasure.

 

[Almas]

...

You're absolutely right. Upwards gravity seems to only affect things like short hops and jumps. By decreasing it then also decreasing the launch power of all jumps, you should be able to keep recoveries in line with other stuff.

I think.

 

[shanus]

Nope, you are decreasing the gravity when moving upwards. If anything it would make up+b recoveries better, but that is being done to offset the faster falling due to downward grav.

Oops you are right, I win the special award! I thought the downward grav mod acted separately from the upward grav mod, so downward grav changes only affect falling motions, and upward grav only affects the upward motions. Therefore, the downward grav wouldn't be offsetting the up+b's but the upwards grav would boost it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the impression I had of the codes?

Therefore, you would boost the jump speed and height (which you would offset with the short hop code), but how would you offset the up+b height? Or is it true that upwards grav modifier doesnt affect up+bs?

 

[GPDP]

Lower upward gravity would buff the recoveries of 14 characters that I listed in a previous post way back.

Coupled with lower launch power, would it not make Brawl even floatier than it already is?

 

[kupo15]

@Kupo
Thanks man, I'll get to working on that. I'm going to test out my other settings first and then tackle shield stun.

EDIT
I take that back, apparently with the old shield stun codes I go over the limit, lol. I'll plug in some shield stun values then. Be sure to update the OP with how to use version 1 of the code, and take down version 2 if it freezes.

I always keep things updated especially seeing how I get the codes before anyone else does. Its the people who don't see it or whatever that is making a big deal about it when they haven't checked for an update. ;\

Wow, we need to look into the hitlag. LOL. I was using what I think Almas proposed and I'm actually able to move before my opponent flies off. I don't know if that is bad, but it's certainly different. It's awesome to me, but yeah, what do you guys think?

I don't think there is a way to speed that up and I don't think its entirely a bad thing. Looking at gimpys meta trailer, Zelda's usmash looks like melee now!

OK, I think 2/4 wasn't quite enough for either value. I'm trying 2.2/4.5 for shield stun and see how that goes. This is all testing on comps mind you, but basically I'm going to play with some friends later tonight so hopefully I'll find a good start off point so we can do some more intricate testing.

You do realize that the multiplier works for weak hits as well right? Just saying that you may not need to go into the additive values yet but you seem to be going on the right track. I'll test whatever values you come up with.

@Starscream
Earlier you mentioned about buffering. I have it on 0, but if they made a buffering code that wasn't glitchy then I think a buffer of 3 or less would be fine by me. As long as the game didn't hold your hand and gave you frame perfect stuff for free I'm down with it

1 buffering brings back thunderstomping and there are no glitches

 

[shanus]

Also, wouldn't that totally ******** up all the second jump heights as well?

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, it made everything mega floaty, sadly. If only we could use the upward grav modifier with a modifier that just increased everyone's full jump/up B recoveries slightly. The upward grav modifier is what was really speeding up the game.

You do realize that the multiplier works for weak hits as well right? Just saying that you may not need to go into the additive values yet but you seem to be going on the right track. I'll test whatever values you come up with.

Yeah, but from computer testing the window is still pretty large on weak hits. They are probably frame perfect though, and without buffer it *might* be hitting my ideal margin. If you had to be frame perfect to defend against it then it's too much stun, so yeah.