COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[plasmatorture]

I can confirm that the hitlag code works, and man, it is BEAUTIFUL. Indeed, it looks like putting 2 on the modifier halves hitlag. Not affected, of course, are moves with elemental properties like Samus's charge shot, and Zelda's bair and fair, but those are the only ones I tested. Marth's tipper no longer has insane hitlag.

Cool. Does this version work as fully intended (halving lag for both players) or is it still one-sided?


Also, kupo, I think it's awesome you've taken it upon yourself to do this and you've been doing a fine job. :bigthumbu

 

[leafgreen386]

Cool. Does this version work as fully intended (halving lag for both players) or is it still one-sided?


Also, kupo, I think it's awesome you've taken it upon yourself to do this and you've been doing a fine job. :bigthumbu

It halves hitlag for both players except with electric moves, which it only halves for the attacker. Tbh, I don't think this is so bad, since I haven't found a single attack yet that you could follow up with another while they were still in hitlag, but it would be nice if it was fixed. The code is definitely usable in its current state, though.

 

[GPDP]

Yeah, what leaf said. CF's knee, for example, still leaves the opponent in hitlag, while CF gets out of hitlag earlier, and can thus sneak in a jab at low percentages.

But man, everything else is so fast and smooth. Dare I say, silky smooth </zohan>. You have GOT to try Fox. His fair and dair connect very fast.

 

[kupo15]

^^its being fixed. I hear ganons dair is trippy with it lol

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

That actually seems like a really, really good mechanic. Although, I think a quarter of a shield is too small. Especially since M-canceling would grant guaranteed grab setups, even if they shield. Afterward the time it takes you to combo them would be more than enough to replenish your shield. I think that 3/4 or more of your shield would be necessary to balance it (and make it so that if you don't have enough shield to do it then there is some kind of negative effect, like increased lag or something).

Zero lag with 100% of your option...1/4th of your shield is a small price to pay.

I agree 100%. There's several ways to counter (aerial, since we're discussing canceling landing lag here) approaches:

1. Outprioritize
2. Dodge (mostly dash dance away) and then punish
3. take the hit and punish (only really works in melee thanks to CC)
4. Shield and punish

With the magus cancel, you're pretty much removing the last three options. The only chance you still have is to outprioritze or outrange your aerial. This puts the aggressor at a huge advantage against characters that cannot easily do this. RAR also means that some characters can utilize their bairs to approach which generally have higher priority. If you're not Marth and can just jab someone out of their aerial, you're in major trouble.

In regular Brawl, this would be less of an issue; so they get a guaranteed hit on you- that's all that happens. In Brawl+, however, it's very likely that whoever just grabbed you can combo you a good deal from that grab. At any rate, getting hit is far more dangerous in Brawl+ because of hitstun no matter what that hit is.

As you can see, the M-cancel would be a very powerful technique, and thus should carry along with it some major disadvantages. This is why I agree that 1/4 shield is probably not enough for such a powerful technique. However, so far this is still only theory fighter, and I can't wait to actually be able to test the code out once it eventually comes out.

Also, I'm very sure that this will not only increase Brawl+'s speed, but also the strategy element. Magus has made several posts as to why manual l canceling is a flawed technique because it requires no thought and doesn't have any disadvantages for attempting it or even failing it. The M cancel would definitely require more thought to use.

 

[Revven]

But man, everything else is so fast and smooth. Dare I say, silky smooth </zohan>. You have GOT to try Fox. His fair and dair connect very fast.

Sounds sexy. This might be the biggest speed boost thus far and I'm, personally, excited. I didn't realize that hitlag was our MAIN problem with the speed of this game! Hey, how's G&W's turtle? Does it feel as though it's as fast as Melee's when it connects? I'm just curious.

Cannot wait to try this out when it's 100% completed. (With electrical/elemental attacks fixed).

 

[GPDP]

Christ, G&W's turtle is insane.

Also, is it just me, or do Ganon's dair and neutral A feature slightly less hitlag than usual despite being electrical? By that, I mean that their hitlag is not as reduced as it should be due to their electrical nature, but still feature a reduction nonetheless. Same with Pika's attacks (his dsmash acts kind of weird; instead of the opponent circling around Pika, he mostly stays in the same place). Maybe it's just me, though. Can someone confirm?

 

[kupo15]

Christ, G&W's turtle is insane.

Also, is it just me, or do Ganon's dair and neutral A feature slightly less hitlag than usual despite being electrical? By that, I mean that their hitlag is not as reduced as it should be due to their electrical nature, but still feature a reduction nonetheless. Same with Pika's attacks (his dsmash acts kind of weird; instead of the opponent circling around Pika, he mostly stays in the same place). Maybe it's just me, though. Can someone confirm?

For one, even though electric attacks are reduced, they have more hitlag than any other type of move. Two, the pika thing is because hitlag for the attacked by electrical moves is not added

 

[GPDP]

Ah, alright. Gotta wait for the new version, then.

 

[KayJay]

sonic fair launches marth backwards on value 2. :/

 

[Deleted member]

ported hitlag to PAL

[hitlag] original phantom wings, ported by the paprika killer
C276CEC0 00000004
39C0000X 7C047000
4180000C 7C8473D6
48000008 38800001
90830010 00000000

have fun, it is awesome

 

[kupo15]

sonic fair launches marth backwards on value 2. :/

Are you sure your it isnt your timing doing that? You know, Falcons knee launches people backwards in melee :razz:

have fun, it is awesome

And almost complete btw

 

[shanus]

Does the first post have the updated hitlag codes, ectetc?

I plan on doing some testing

 

[Revven]

sonic fair launches marth backwards on value 2. :/

This happens in vanilla Brawl based off of how you land the Fair. The multihit property of it pushes them through Sonic's body as he moves forwards and can some times launch them the other way. If you maintain a certain direction without pushing forward any further, I believe it will launch them forward.

It's the hitbox basically, it depends where you land the hitbox and how you move. At least, that's how I've interpreted it every time I've played Sonic in vanilla Brawl.

 

[kupo15]

Does the first post have the updated hitlag codes, ectetc?

I plan on doing some testing

of course. I always stay updated. We are waiting for the final release of the code

 

[shanus]

of course. I always stay updated. We are waiting for the final release of the code

Alright, I'll just wait until then and then play to my hearts content and report. Awesome work guys.

 

[GPDP]

Hmmm, just encountered a strange glitch. I was playing against a LV9 DK with Marth, and he had a fully charged DK Punch. He threw it, and I countered. The counter did nothing to DK.

Edit: I just did it again, and I noticed that the counter did hit DK and damaged him, but there was no knockback. Does DK gain super armor when throwing the DK Punch? If so, then I'm just being stupid lol.

 

[KayJay]

Well you have to stop your air momentum now with sonic if you instantly hit the enemy with fair, it's not a big issue, i can deal with that. I know it happened in vanilla brawl too, but now with hitlag you will have to stop your momentum in the middle of the attack sometimes.

I like how the elemental attacks work, that way ganon gets a slightly buff (and he could need that buff IMO) cause he can combo better after his thunderstomp. If this got changed, I'm fine with it, if it stays, I'm also fine.

Edit: I just did it again, and I noticed that the counter did hit DK and damaged him, but there was no knockback. Does DK gain super armor when throwing the DK Punch? If so, then I'm just being stupid lol.

It can be that this happens in VB too cause DK Punch has super armor frames.

 

[kupo15]

Hmmm, just encountered a strange glitch. I was playing against a LV9 DK with Marth, and he had a fully charged DK Punch. He threw it, and I countered. The counter did nothing to DK.

Edit: I just did it again, and I noticed that the counter did hit DK and damaged him, but there was no knockback. Does DK gain super armor when throwing the DK Punch? If so, then I'm just being stupid lol.

yes, dk has super armor on the punch

 

[GPDP]

Alright, disregard what I said, then. It just looks odd, since the lower hitlag appears to make Marth counter earlier, thus hitting DK during his super armor frames.

...unless it was always like this.

 

[Deleted member]

noticed one glitch on 5 buffer (usually play on 3 or 0, but my bro is being "conservative" to put it nice)
whe nZSS (or any char maybe) rolls and then instantly try to neutral a or b, she will turn around, though this never happened on 10 (normal) buffer.

oh and i let go of the control stick immedeatly (that is prob spelled wrong)

happens with every char and on 5 frames too, now trying 10 to see if I'm not just sloppy

 

[Revven]

Alright, disregard what I said, then. It just looks odd, since the lower hitlag appears to make Marth counter earlier, thus hitting DK during his super armor frames.

...unless it was always like this.

I don't believe it was always like that, I think it depends on the timing in vanilla Brawl due to how slow the DK punch is in it compared to Brawl+'s with the hitlag modifier. If it isn't able to be countered by Marth's counter that's an interesting and yet, odd thing to occur.

Does it always 100% of the time happen? Or is it timing dependent for both characters?

 

[GPDP]

I'll see if I can test different timings.

 

[kupo15]

I don't believe it was always like that, I think it depends on the timing in vanilla Brawl due to how slow the DK punch is in it compared to Brawl+'s with the hitlag modifier. If it isn't able to be countered by Marth's counter that's an interesting and yet, odd thing to occur.

Does it always 100% of the time happen? Or is it timing dependent for both characters?

unless this code still doesn't make normal move's hitlag affect the attacked

 

[Deleted member]

it doesn't happen on 10 fframes buffer, so it is caused by the code.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

me hunger for fresh videos

 

[Alopex]

Alright, disregard what I said, then. It just looks odd, since the lower hitlag appears to make Marth counter earlier, thus hitting DK during his super armor frames.

...unless it was always like this.

Just to be clear, I just tested Vanilla and it NEVER happens. Not even on Ike or Peach.

But it makes sense that the hitlag code is doing this.

Marth and Ike go through a lot of hitlag before they hit with the counter. In Vanilla, the hitlag made it so that they only ended up attacking after DK's Super Armor was gone.

Looks like the hitlag code is reducing the hitlag of Counter and making the hit come out sooner, thus hitting DK while he's still in SA.

 

[GPDP]

unless this code still doesn't make normal move's hitlag affect the attacked

I'm pretty sure it does. This particular example just happens because of DK's long window of super armor and reduced hitlag on Marth's counter.

Just to be clear, I just tested Vanilla and it NEVER happens. Not even on Ike or Peach.

But it makes sense that the hitlag code is doing this.

Marth and Ike go through a lot of hitlag before they hit with the counter. In Vanilla, the hitlag made it so that they only ended up attacking after DK's Super Armor was gone.

Looks like the hitlag code is reducing the hitlag of Counter and making the hit come out sooner, thus hitting DK while he's still in SA.

So what do we make of this? Is this gonna be a problem? If so, maybe we ought to look into halving SA frames. If not, then let's not.

Anyway, I just tested Ike, Peach, and Lucario. Ike has the same problem as Marth, but Peach doesn't, as the Toad counter is out for a longer period of time than either Marth's or Ike's. Same with Lucario, as his counter takes a while to actually hit.

 

[Revven]

Looks like the hitlag code is reducing the hitlag of Counter and making the hit come out sooner, thus hitting DK while he's still in SA.

The question would be whether or not this is worth fixing and adding more lines to the hitlag modifier. I suppose it would just be a pro for DK's match-ups against Ike and Marth but... wouldn't that be too good of an advantage since it is not easily dodged and such?

Would it be better if we made it so the hitlag modifier didn't affect moves like Counter for Lucario, Marth, and Ike? That's the question I'm asking as well as whether or not it's worth a fix.

Speaking of Lucario's Double Team, someone try it out with the hitlag modifier and see if its speed changes too.

 

[kupo15]

I'm pretty sure it does. This particular example just happens because of DK's long window of super armor and reduced hitlag on Marth's counter.

No I say it because of this. The only way I can think that this works this way now is because marth attacks quicker while Dk still has the same hitlag as before. If Dk's hitlag changed like marths, then his SA would be done sooner thus receiving kb.

 

[Alopex]

If you can somehow make 0 buffer have instant aerials, awesome. Or if you can make 1 buffer not have this crouch after fast falled aerials, that works for me too.

First things first, I agree with this if it can be done.
But I'll take 1 buffer over 0 buffer even with the crouch because, in the end, both affect the SHFFL. One affects the end, one affects the start. Some characters can't even SHFFL without that instant aerial, so I much prefer having the possible crouch because, in my testing, actually getting the crouch is just a matter of timing.

So let's move on to that point:

There are probably other characters that do as well but I'm not gonna test everyone. If you're fast falling these without crouching afterwards then you're either flicking the control stick very lightly for a fast fall, or you're just letting go of the stick really fast because that's the only way it's possible. I think the best way to describe it would be that it's like doing an Utilt with tap jump on. It feels unnatural for a SHFFL.

It's funny because the way you describe it makes it look like the 1 buffer is actually adding more skill to the SHFFL. You need to time everything properly if you're going to avoid that crouch.

For me, I never had a problem. I can SHFFL all day long at 1 buffer. I guess I just got used to the timing.
It's like how people say you should spend half and hour with 0 buffer to get used to it. I'd say it's a similar case for 1 buffer, but with better results (since you keep instant aerials). With enough practice, you can nail the timing all the time.

So I dunno, from your opinion on it, it's looking like 1 buffer is making you need to be even MORE precise with your input timing than 0 buffer. And isn't that what people wanted 0 buffer for?

Try doing what KayJay said and using the Cstick for a fast fall. I use it myself and it works well. It's good because the Cstick input only gets read once per flick. So if you flick it down during your aerial, you'll fast fall and won't input another command, so there won't be another command buffered. You follow what I mean?
If you keep mashing the Cstick down, you can then possibly get the crouch if you mashed it enough. But it's a lot less likely to happen than in Vanilla Brawl, when I would always get the crouch by mashing the Cstick down. (In fact, mashing the Cstick down in Vanilla I would get the crouch AND the Dtilt instantly upon landing. It was actually very useful for Sheik. ^.^)

Give it a shot and see what happens.

1 buffer only makes the crouch happen if you let it. It's all about timing, and isn't that what we want more of in the end?

 

[KayJay]

Just to be clear, I just tested Vanilla and it NEVER happens. Not even on Ike or Peach.

But it makes sense that the hitlag code is doing this.

Marth and Ike go through a lot of hitlag before they hit with the counter. In Vanilla, the hitlag made it so that they only ended up attacking after DK's Super Armor was gone.

Looks like the hitlag code is reducing the hitlag of Counter and making the hit come out sooner, thus hitting DK while he's still in SA.

IMO it's not that bad since Marth's counter is annoying anyway, DK deserves that buff! ^^

 

[GPDP]

No I say it because of this. The only way I can think that this works this way now is because marth attacks quicker while Dk still has the same hitlag as before. If Dk's hitlag changed like marths, then his SA would be done sooner thus receiving kb.

Are you sure about this? I can see his SA frames remaining the same despite the lack of hitlag. I know his DK punch received reduced hitlag. I've tested it over and over.

 

[kupo15]

Are you sure about this? I can see his SA frames remaining the same despite the lack of hitlag. I know his DK punch received reduced hitlag. I've tested it over and over.

no I am not sure which is why I brought it up

 

[Alopex]

No I say it because of this. The only way I can think that this works this way now is because marth attacks quicker while Dk still has the same hitlag as before. If Dk's hitlag changed like marths, then his SA would be done sooner thus receiving kb.

Wait, are you certain that the SA frame length is attached to the hitlag frame length?

If they aren't, then changing DK's hitlag won't affect anything in this case.

EDIT: Beat.

 

[shanus]

someone who has the hitlag cdes installed, can you check olimar's down+b whistle superarmor. I'm interested in seeing if most characters super armor duration is preserved.

 

[leafgreen386]

I really don't see the DK/marth thing a big problem. So... DK tries to giant punch the marth, gets countered, and thus takes huge damage, while the marth takes nothing. THIS IS STILL HEAVILY IN FAVOR OF THE MARTH.

 

[kupo15]

Wait, are you certain that the SA frame length is attached to the hitlag frame length?

If they aren't, then changing DK's hitlag won't affect anything in this case.

EDIT: Beat.

No hear is what I'm thinking. SA is linked to hitlag. If you Dk punch someone, you can get hit by anything else and the SA still takes affect. Another thing thats not SA but you can test also. You need regular brawl for testing to be easier but if you knee and object then have someone walk into the knee, they too will get kneed as well.

So hitlag actually extends the SA frames in a fake way. If you have marth recovering from hitlag sooner than dk does, then dk will still have the SA since the hitlag extends the SA.

 

[KayJay]

someone who has the hitlag cdes installed, can you check olimar's down+b whistle superarmor. I'm interested in seeing if most characters super armor duration is preserved.

I tested it, Olimars super armor starts at the very first frame (i guess) and ends when Olimar lowers his head.
Don't remember how it was in VB.

 

[GPDP]

No hear is what I'm thinking. SA is linked to hitlag. If you Dk punch someone, you can get hit by anything else and the SA still takes affect. Another thing thats not SA but you can test also. You need regular brawl for testing to be easier but if you knee and object then have someone walk into the knee, they too will get kneed as well.

So hitlag actually extends the SA frames in a fake way. If you have marth recovering from hitlag sooner than dk does, then dk will still have the SA since the hitlag extends the SA.

What if the SA frames are just less than the DK Punch hitlag frames?