COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[shanus]

I tested it, Olimars super armor starts at the very first frame (i guess) and ends when Olimar lowers his head.
Don't remember how it was in VB.

well see it was proportional to the hitlag before. So for instance, you can whistle armor through at least 90% of g&w's turtle. I was interested in seeing if it still has this long super armor property which is proportional to the hitlag.

 

[Almas]

Man, do you people have to keep posting while I'm not online?

Kais (MK) and Almas (Fox) vs Phear (G&W) and Halo (Toony) 6
Kais (MK) and Almas (Fox) vs Phear (G&W) and Halo (Marth) 5
Kais (Fox) and Almas (ROB) vs Phear (G&W) and Halo (Toony) 4
Kais (Kirby) and Almas (Jigglypuff) vs Phear (Marth) and Halo (Marth) 3
Kais (Fox) and Almas (Jigglypuff) vs Phear (Marth) and Halo (Toony) 2
Kais (Fox) and Almas (ROB) vs Phear (G&W) and Halo (Toony) 1

Almas (ROB) and Halo (Toony) vs Phear (G&W) and Kais (Kirby) 4
Almas (Zelda) and Halo (Marth) vs Phear (G&W) and Kais (Fox) 3
Almas (Fox) and Halo (Toony) vs Phear (G&W) and Kais (Fox) 2
Almas (ROB) and Halo (Toony) vs Phear (G&W) and Kais (Falco) 1

Almas (ROB) and Phear (G&W) vs Halo (Toony) and Kais (MK) 5
Almas (Jigglypuff) and Phear (G&W) vs Halo (Toony) and Kais (Fox) 4
Almas (Zelda) and Phear (G&W) vs Halo (Ike) and Kais (Fox) 3
Almas (Zelda) and Phear (G&W) vs Halo (Ike) and Kais (Fox) 2
Almas (Zelda) and Phear (G&W) vs Halo (Ike) and Kais (Fox) 1

Almas (ROB) vs Halo (Toony) 3
Almas (ROB) vs Halo (Toony) 2
Almas (Zelda) vs Halo (Toony) 1

Almas (Jigglypuff) vs Phear (G&W) 3
Almas (ROB) vs Phear (G&W) 2
Almas (Zelda) vs Phear (G&W) 1

Phear (DK) vs Halo (Toony) 1

I think in future I may have to make highlight videos instead - we're not really good enough to warrant videos of our entire gameplay.

I also think that, as a community, we should think of migrating these boards. Not that Smashboards isn't a great place, but we could use more room.

 

[Deleted member]

well, smashboards is THE place to invite new people to the scene

 

[Osi]

I think we need to stay on here to build it up, and once a tourney scene is in place maybe move. A big issue now is building the brawl+ base. Smashboards is a huge forum, so a nice place to do it.

 

[zxeon]

I'm pretty sure it does. This particular example just happens because of DK's long window of super armor and reduced hitlag on Marth's counter.



So what do we make of this? Is this gonna be a problem? If so, maybe we ought to look into halving SA frames. If not, then let's not.

Anyway, I just tested Ike, Peach, and Lucario. Ike has the same problem as Marth, but Peach doesn't, as the Toad counter is out for a longer period of time than either Marth's or Ike's. Same with Lucario, as his counter takes a while to actually hit.

I don't see it being a problem. I'm OK with that since it's not really breaking anything and makes total sense seeing that there is less hitlag.

 

[MBlaze]

So to divide the hitlag in half, I put 05 for the values?

 

[zxeon]

So to divide the hitlag in half, I put 05 for the values?

You input 2.

 

[KayJay]

I have a feeling with the hitlag code that we have to increase Hitstun again for about +0.5% of your current value, I don't know exactly why, it just feels like marth lvl9 cpu can react faster again (down b counter) after I hit him.

 

[MBlaze]

You input 2.

02 or 20? Since there's two spots.

 

[Unseen_Killa]

I also think that, as a community, we should think of migrating these boards. Not that Smashboards isn't a great place, but we could use more room.

Wrong, I don't think we should seperate from smashboards unless they aren't willing to create a seperate board for us.

Hopefully out of kindness they would, considering they already have so many other boards, and this is such a hot thing atm with so much discussion, it's starting to get confusing to keep track of everything.

 

[zxeon]

02 or 20? Since there's two spots.

There is only one spot in the hitstun division code. You're thinking about the hitstun subtraction.

 

[Starscream]

Remember this:

I do now but it doesn't seem right to make the majority of players relearn how to SHFFL because of a poorly implemented mechanic. Call me crazy.

First things first, I agree with this if it can be done.
But I'll take 1 buffer over 0 buffer even with the crouch because, in the end, both affect the SHFFL. One affects the end, one affects the start. Some characters can't even SHFFL without that instant aerial, so I much prefer having the possible crouch because, in my testing, actually getting the crouch is just a matter of timing.

Which characters and which attacks can't be SHFFLed without instant aerials? Short hops are higher than they once were so I don't see many characters having a problem SHFFLing or getting their attack out in the short hop even in the tiny delay of 0 buffer.

It's funny because the way you describe it makes it look like the 1 buffer is actually adding more skill to the SHFFL. You need to time everything properly if you're going to avoid that crouch.

I'd say unnecessary tech skill for something that isn't broken or overpowered to combat an annoyance.

For me, I never had a problem. I can SHFFL all day long at 1 buffer. I guess I just got used to the timing.
It's like how people say you should spend half and hour with 0 buffer to get used to it. I'd say it's a similar case for 1 buffer, but with better results (since you keep instant aerials). With enough practice, you can nail the timing all the time.

Probably but it still feels unnatural to let go of the stick that early.

So I dunno, from your opinion on it, it's looking like 1 buffer is making you need to be even MORE precise with your input timing than 0 buffer. And isn't that what people wanted 0 buffer for?

How is it more precise when you can buffer a crouch when you haven't even landed yet? I think what most players mean by precision is that you do can only do a move when it's available, not before.

Try doing what KayJay said and using the Cstick for a fast fall. I use it myself and it works well. It's good because the Cstick input only gets read once per flick. So if you flick it down during your aerial, you'll fast fall and won't input another command, so there won't be another command buffered. You follow what I mean?
If you keep mashing the Cstick down, you can then possibly get the crouch if you mashed it enough. But it's a lot less likely to happen than in Vanilla Brawl, when I would always get the crouch by mashing the Cstick down. (In fact, mashing the Cstick down in Vanilla I would get the crouch AND the Dtilt instantly upon landing. It was actually very useful for Sheik. ^.^)

Making the majority of players relearn how to SHFFL because of a stupid buffer system seems like a kick in the balls.

1 buffer only makes the crouch happen if you let it. It's all about timing, and isn't that what we want more of in the end?

1 buffer makes you crouch when it shouldn't be an available option yet, as in you're still in the air. That's not more precise at all. If you want to crouch after a SHFFL then input a crouch after you have landed, that should be proper timing and I'm sure that's what most people mean by precision.

 

[MBlaze]

Has anyone even been testing this code... at ALL?:

Short Hop Height/Fast Fall Speed Multiplier [Almas, 9 Lines]
045A9304 3F800000
045A9308 3F800000
C285765C 00000006
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
2C002F20 4082000C
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C3FE2004 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Where Yellow is Brawl's
default for short hop height (a lower value
corresponds to a lower height, I recommend at
least 0.8 else some characters don't even leave
the ground), and Red is
Brawl's default for fastfall speed (a higher value
corresponds to a faster fastfall).


Seriously, this sounds good to have a fast fall without screwing with the gravity.

 

[zxeon]

Has anyone even been testing this code... at ALL?:

Short Hop Height/Fast Fall Speed Multiplier [Almas, 9 Lines]
045A9304 3F800000
045A9308 3F800000
C285765C 00000006
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
2C002F20 4082000C
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C3FE2004 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Where Yellow is Brawl's
default for short hop height (a lower value
corresponds to a lower height, I recommend at
least 0.8 else some characters don't even leave
the ground), and Red is
Brawl's default for fastfall speed (a higher value
corresponds to a faster fastfall).


Seriously, this sounds good to have a fast fall without screwing with the gravity.

I play with the jump hight set to .8 and it's pretty cool.

 

[Almas]

To be honest, I personally prefer the code that affects all downwards gravity. It sounds hypocritical considering I wrote that new one, but that was an afterthought.

I think 0.85->0.90 shorthop height is really good, personally, I recommend y'all try it. I play with increased upwards grav too, though (about 1.1 at the moment, just to get rid of the general 'floaty' feel of the game).

 

[MBlaze]

To be honest, I personally prefer the code that affects all downwards gravity. It sounds hypocritical considering I wrote that new one, but that was an afterthought.

I think 0.85->0.90 shorthop height is really good, personally, I recommend y'all try it.

Isn't the only reason that we have the gravity codes is for a shorter short hop? Because if so and this doesn't screw with gravity (Even though it might), we use this instead? Or we use both?

 

[Almas]

Gravity codes remove floatiness and also have the perk of reducing shorthop height.

This code doesn't affect gravity at all, it affects the launch power of the shorthop itself. Similar codes can be written to affect things like fullhop, ledgehop and dash speed.

 

[shanus]

By the looks of it, no hitlag update yet?

 

[KayJay]

Which characters and which attacks can't be SHFFLed without instant aerials? Short hops are higher than they once were so I don't see many characters having a problem SHFFLing or getting their attack out in the short hop even in the tiny delay of 0 buffer.

I listed many many things that are impossible or nearly impossible with 0 Buffer.
I don't see why people still debate about 0 Buffer, it has too many flaws.

 

[Osi]

there was one like last night I think, at some point Kupo was on and had a update on it

 

[Starscream]

I listed many many things that are impossible or nearly impossible with 0 Buffer.
I don't see why people still debate about 0 Buffer, it has too many flaws.

Yes I saw the list, I'm still not convinced because a lot of those double aerials don't even seem practical in use. Never had I see a MK do a dair to fair (which only gets the first hit out I believe). Never have I seen a Zelda do an Fair to Bair. Falcon doesn't need his autocancel Dair, the half lag is more than fast enough. Ganon won't break without being able to autocancel Dair, fix the instant aerials on 0 buffer or make shffls not ridiculously easy to crouch on 1 then I'll be happy. People still debate for 0 buffer because they aren't happy with 1 buffer. I'm probably forgetting most of the list and I'm about to go mess with the new hitlag code anyways so I'll look it up later. But if you're only debating for being able to do those double aerials without a care if they are applicable or not in real combat then it seems moot. Maybe some or most are, maybe they aren't, I don't remember. Off to test new hitlag.

 

[zxeon]

I listed many many things that are impossible or nearly impossible with 0 Buffer.
I don't see why people still debate about 0 Buffer, it has too many flaws.

It's way better than the alternative.

 

[kupo15]

By the looks of it, no hitlag update yet?

nope. PW hasn't been on since this morning and I pmed him in the afternoon

I listed many many things that are impossible or nearly impossible with 0 Buffer.
I don't see why people still debate about 0 Buffer, it has too many flaws.

0 does not have a lot of flaws but if 1 isn't glitchy, I don't think anyone would have a problem. I never really ran into the trouble of crouching after a shffl like people have been saying..

 

[leafgreen386]

To be honest, I personally prefer the code that affects all downwards gravity. It sounds hypocritical considering I wrote that new one, but that was an afterthought.

I think 0.85->0.90 shorthop height is really good, personally, I recommend y'all try it. I play with increased upwards grav too, though (about 1.1 at the moment, just to get rid of the general 'floaty' feel of the game).

You do know that you don't need an upward grav mod if you're editing sh height, right? They're both working toward the same thing. Ultimately, upward gravity has no effect except to weaken jumps and upBs.

Anyway, I might be willing to give a slight gravity increase another shot. When we speed up all the other aspects of the game like this (ground speed via dashdancing, attack speed via reducing hitlag, landing transition via ALC, the ledge game via lagless ledges, etc) the airtime in the game becomes ridiculously noticeable. It feels so weird to be fast in all these other respects but then hang in the air forever and a day. I'll be trying out 1.1x downgrav with +.10 hitstun.

 

[Starscream]

0 does not have a lot of flaws but if 1 isn't glitchy, I don't think anyone would have a problem. I never really ran into the trouble of crouching after a shffl like people have been saying..

It happens mainly with attacks that have low landing lag anyways like Falcon's nair, Fox's Nair, Falco's Nair, Marth's Fair. It also can sometimes depend on when you cancel the moves. It seems like doing an instant Uair with Falcon is more likely to cause the crouch than delaying it and canceling the reverse kick of the Uair.

 

[KayJay]

Yes I saw the list, I'm still not convinced because a lot of those double aerials don't even seem practical in use. Never had I see a MK do a dair to fair (which only gets the first hit out I believe). Never have I seen a Zelda do an Fair to Bair. Falcon doesn't need his autocancel Dair, the half lag is more than fast enough. Ganon won't break without being able to autocancel Dair, fix the instant aerials on 0 buffer or make shffls not ridiculously easy to crouch on 1 then I'll be happy. People still debate for 0 buffer because they aren't happy with 1 buffer. I'm probably forgetting most of the list and I'm about to go mess with the new hitlag code anyways so I'll look it up later. But if you're only debating for being able to do those double aerials without a care if they are applicable or not in real combat then it seems moot. Maybe some or most are, maybe they aren't, I don't remember. Off to test new hitlag.

That's because not many people did even know how to perform instant aerials, sonic fair to uair was allready in VB incredible useful, yet not many knew this combination, the canceled uair on ground is a combo starter at ANY percent that does connect well to an undodgeable up tilt.
Zelda fair to bair was good for mindgame and shieldpresuring, ganon's fake dair to running grab / quick dash attack or jab is still a must have in his game, Yoshi bair to uair did connect well and so on.
Not to forget Links whole bunch of arrow cancel stuff.

 

[shanus]

You do know that you don't need an upward grav mod if you're editing sh height, right? They're both working toward the same thing. Ultimately, upward gravity has no effect except to weaken jumps and upBs.

Anyway, I might be willing to give a slight gravity increase another shot. When we speed up all the other aspects of the game like this (ground speed via dashdancing, attack speed via reducing hitlag, landing transition via ALC, the ledge game via lagless ledges, etc) the airtime in the game becomes ridiculously noticeable. It feels so weird to be fast in all these other respects but then hang in the air forever and a day. I'll be trying out 1.1x downgrav with +.10 hitstun.

Once you go 10% hitstun with 1.1 fallspeed there is no going back. It is too good and too fun.

 

[GPDP]

You do know that you don't need an upward grav mod if you're editing sh height, right? They're both working toward the same thing. Ultimately, upward gravity has no effect except to weaken jumps and upBs.

Anyway, I might be willing to give a slight gravity increase another shot. When we speed up all the other aspects of the game like this (ground speed via dashdancing, attack speed via reducing hitlag, landing transition via ALC, the ledge game via lagless ledges, etc) the airtime in the game becomes ridiculously noticeable. It feels so weird to be fast in all these other respects but then hang in the air forever and a day. I'll be trying out 1.1x downgrav with +.10 hitstun.

That's what I've been saying all along. The air game is still too slow and floaty. Increasing downward gravity helps, but that's only half of the solution IMO. What needs to happen to resolve this is a way to speed up jumps without messing with jump height and the effectiveness of certain recovery moves. Almas said he's gonna take a look and see what can be done, so hopefully we'll have something to work with sometime soon.

 

[poklin]

We need momentum so bad ;( has it been said if this is possible or not?

 

[shanus]

That's what I've been saying all along. The air game is still too slow and floaty. Increasing downward gravity helps, but that's only half of the solution IMO. What needs to happen to resolve this is a way to speed up jumps without messing with jump height and the effectiveness of certain recovery moves. Almas said he's gonna take a look and see what can be done, so hopefully we'll have something to work with sometime soon.

I honestly don't think this is necessary at all. Personally, with heightened gravity and faster ground game i thikn the speeds are actually very agreeable now. I think just a slight global speed increase is just what we would need afterwards rather than just trying to speed up the jump animation.

 

[Osi]

We need momentum so bad ;( has it been said if this is possible or not?

Almas is working on this one.

 

[K1T3]

MK's up smash is so amazing now with less hitlag
Shiz all of MK's moves are amazing with these new codes.
They either trap you due to hitstun/shieldstun
easily gimp you due to gravity
don't let you SDI out due to hitlag reduction (usmash, fair/bair)
tornado is hella hard to get out of due to gravity
not to mention his up tilt, up smash, dash attack, some throws, up air, tornado, glide attack, and various other moves are all combo starters or continuers due to hitstun

This guy is really looking like he'll need to be banned but we'll see.

 

[Almas]

My current plan of action is as follows:

1) Work on a couple of fun codes (Most notably, I want to write a code that reverses the effect of 'flowerheads' - I think it'd create an interesting game, where camping is significantly nerfed.

2) I found a huge set of variables, which is what let me write the shorthop code. I plan to investigate all of the variables there to find out, exactly, what they all do. Hopefully this will allow a couple of other codes which people have requested to be possible.

3) Hope that my newfound knowledge of said variables makes a horizontal jump momentum code (fairly) trivial to write.

 

[zxeon]

My current plan of action is as follows:

1) Work on a couple of fun codes (Most notably, I want to write a code that reverses the effect of 'flowerheads' - I think it'd create an interesting game, where camping is significantly nerfed.

2) I found a huge set of variables, which is what let me write the shorthop code. I plan to investigate all of the variables there to find out, exactly, what they all do. Hopefully this will allow a couple of other codes which people have requested to be possible.

3) Hope that my newfound knowledge of said variables makes a horizontal jump momentum code (fairly) trivial to write.

Godspeed. People still say that right?

 

[cAm8ooo]

MK's up smash is so amazing now with less hitlag
Shiz all of MK's moves are amazing with these new codes.
They either trap you due to hitstun/shieldstun
easily gimp you due to gravity
don't let you SDI out due to hitlag reduction (usmash, fair/bair)
tornado is hella hard to get out of due to gravity
not to mention his up tilt, up smash, dash attack, some throws, up air, tornado, glide attack, and various other moves are all combo starters or continuers due to hitstun

This guy is really looking like he'll need to be banned but we'll see.

Psh.... Look at my new sig. Meta is scared to death of the little pink guy.

But no really.... we need to nerf the *******.

 

[leafgreen386]

I think the idea of making all of MK's attacks have a stale of .5 regardless of how many times they've been used was a very good idea. Not only will they do 1/2 damage, but they'll also have 1/2 launch speed. He'd still be an amazing combo character (an even better one, at that), but he would have some extreme difficulty killing.

 

[Osi]

this sounds like a nice fix actually, is there a way to make stale moves character specific?

 

[Almas]

No, but you can make damage (dealt) ratio character specific, so that all his attacks have X% knockback compared to normal. It'd take about 7-8 lines.

EDIT: Oh, actually, it would take atleast 2-3 more, maybe considerably more. Since you'd have to check every player.

EDIT2: Making stale moves character specific, as far as I'm aware, is absolutely impossible. All players share the same set of variables regarding the %damage change in each stale position. I guess you could do it with a really roundabout method involving wiping people's stale lists if they aren't metaknight, but the solution above is far simpler to do.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

There has to be, cause if you can replace characters (Bowser with Giga Bowser, etc), there has to be an indicater to specify characters.

 

[MBlaze]

I just tried the hitlag code with half the hit lag and I have to say that I think it might be a little too much lag removed. Maybe 1/4 removed? Just because it doesn't really feel like Brawl.