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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
While you're here spunit, I'm going to ask you a question for clarification's sake. Pretty sure I've already asked you this, but it would've been a while ago and, in all honesty, I just don't feel like searching like mad for a potential post.

Your v8 shieldstun code. You said it fixed something over the previous version of it. Something about you getting a value wrong?

Anyway, what is it that the v8 shieldstun code fixes, exactly, over the previous version?

Kupo reports that he feels no difference between the v8 code and the previous version except that the v8 code has NPS'ing while the previous one doesn't.

So if you could please just clarify what the benefit/fix of the v8 code is over the previous NPS-less shieldstun version, it would be much appreciated.
 

spunit262

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
421
While you're here spunit, I'm going to ask you a question for clarification's sake. Pretty sure I've already asked you this, but it would've been a while ago and, in all honesty, I just don't feel like searching like mad for a potential post.

Your v8 shieldstun code. You said it fixed something over the previous version of it. Something about you getting a value wrong?

Anyway, what is it that the v8 shieldstun code fixes, exactly, over the previous version?

Kupo reports that he feels no difference between the v8 code and the previous version except that the v8 code has NPS'ing while the previous one doesn't.

So if you could please just clarify what the benefit/fix of the v8 code is over the previous NPS-less shieldstun version, it would be much appreciated.
v8 doesn't have nPS v8.1 does. I got confused because I messed up a different code (PS window). V8 is the one to use.
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
Ah, alright. Excellent. So that issue is resolved. v8 is the only one in the OP, so I'm going to assume that that's the "old NPS-less" one kupo is using. Seems to be the one in popular use so I'm glad that it's NPS-free.

Thanks for clarifying.
 

☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
1,672
Location
waiting for mars to hurry up with that **** blunt
Thats the problem. Everything MuBa code set is too much. Nothing particularly wrong with that if you want that sort of fun but Mookies and mine are a bit more "sensible?" when it comes to values. Once again, nothing wrong with that. I don't know how to explain the reason for your crowds response without sounding like Im dissing the code set


Its not a problem with the code and Im sorry but this isn't the thread to discuss that. We never asked for that code and we really aren't interested in it for the purposes this thread addresses
ok i c but it shouldnt be in the perfect codes slot should it? if its not perfect
 

CountKaiser

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
1,370
Location
In space
Alright, chances are this is the wrong place to ask, but apparently Sonic is supposed to be **** in B+. I've used him a few times, and I don't see it.

How the **** am I supposed to use Sonic? Any pointers?
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
Alright, chances are this is the wrong place to ask, but apparently Sonic is supposed to be **** in B+. I've used him a few times, and I don't see it.

How the **** am I supposed to use Sonic? Any pointers?
I like demonstration, and I will explain this as well.

Cape (Sonic) vs Nakamaru (Sheik):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCKJLMaJN2U

In this match you notice that when I am doing well I am doing a few things. Dodging attacks to make openings, comboing for damage, and edgeguarding heavily. Sonic has a great recovery and his speed (with the addition of DD and DC) he has all kinds of options at his disposal to get in on his opponent. You notice also that I get stomped for portions of the match, in these portions I am trying to take Sheik head on, which Sonic is terrible at.

Kaotical(Sonic) vs Cape (Wolf)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLlnyQ0EFXA
He rushes me head on the whole match and abuses his spin moves. This leads to my outranging him (the old strategy of controlling the pace of the match against fast characters) and beating his moves soundly.

Sonic is a good character because he has the ability to take openings and make them larger, then lead them to combos, then to edgeguards. Sonic excells at taking his opponent from a single hit to a very disadvantaged position, and eventually death.

Sonic fair is a great combo starter because it autocancels and allows Sonic to lead into almost anything else. U throw is great for setting up uair juggles and you should never be afraid to take that extra little step while edgeguarding because Sonic's recovery is so good, you will make it back.

To quote Umbreon Mow: "He just MAKES it"
 

the_judge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
243
Location
Hi desert, Socal
The goal with Sonic now is not to use your smashes, but use everything else.

He's pretty good in B+, he doesn't go up many tier positions but his speed actually becomes a factor of his meta-game.

On Topic:
I personally say that the ledge invincibility doesn't need to be longer. The short time kinda forces most chars to get off and take the offensive, plus it actually makes the edgeguarding game less extensive which means both players have to think faster.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
The goal with Sonic now is not to use your smashes, but use everything else.

He's pretty good in B+, he doesn't go up many tier positions but his speed actually becomes a factor of his meta-game.

On Topic:
I personally say that the ledge invincibility doesn't need to be longer. The short time kinda forces most chars to get off and take the offensive, plus it actually makes the edgeguarding game less extensive which means both players have to think faster.
Disagree with the Sonic point (he is now one of the best)

Agree with the ledge invulnerability point. The fact that there isnt alot of it forces you off the ledge quicker and also doesnt allow you to abuse the invulnerability off the ledge. Melee began falling into that rut of using the invulnerability frames to get on the stage safely almost everytime. We dont want that to happen here. There are enough that you get a chance to breathe, but not enough that you can abuse your way back onto the stage every time.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
It is played by over 150 people, if the membership in the Brawl+ Brigade is any indicator. But I agree about not arguing tiers.

@the judge: Sonics's Dash -> DC to spaced fsmash is a pretty good, safe tactic if you aren't too predictable. I wouldn't throw out his smashes just yet. But if you really want to get into this you should go to our forums.
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
No one's been arguing to bring back the Melee length of ledge invulnerability, just a slight increase in the current level. As it stands, vBrawl ledges are extremely laggy and prevent you from actually using the invuln frames in any advantageous way to boost your return to the stage.

Meanwhile, Brawl+ ledges are just about lag free and allow for much more liberal and creative use of the ledges both offensively and defensively. The only problem is that the ledge invuln is now much too short, which in the ends results in the same situation that vBrawl left us in, unable to take proper advantage of the invuln frames in order to boost the return to the stage.

Granted, lagless ledges and increased invlun time need to handled with care. Which is why a slight increase over the current levels is what is being advocated by those in favor.

The No ASL code already goes a long way to prevent ledge stalling as it is. A slight increase in the invuln time will simply make returning to stage less easily predictable and punishable. Still punishable, still predictable, but not so easily. Puts some skill back into ledgeguarding.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
momentum code out. Guess how many lines. Cmon don't peak
One...? Please? Two hundred and fifty four? My apartment mate went to sleep so I can't test it right now. ****. I need epic off stage falcon punch footage, stat!
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
Uh... 7 lines?

EDIT: Wow, lol... it IS 1 line. Much props to PW.

As PW himself pretty much stated, it's not perfect just yet, but it's a darn good starting point.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,774
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
I meant, tiers shouldn't be discussed for a while lol.

Does brawl + really have 150 people? That's cool lol.

Awesome 7 lines lol.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
Could PW explain a bit more what the values are based on if not dash speed? And what does he mean falling from a ledge? No momentum there that I know of....(?)

1 line though. Wow. That's awesome. I can not wait to try this out.

Edit: Nevermind. I see, running of ledges, duh.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Woah woah woah.

1 line? It's like Christmas! Guess I'm not sleeping for classes tomorrow :)

Make sure to give PW our biggest thanks for all the work he has done!
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Alright, chances are this is the wrong place to ask, but apparently Sonic is supposed to be **** in B+. I've used him a few times, and I don't see it.

How the **** am I supposed to use Sonic? Any pointers?
First of all...you have to learn the basics for Sonic. Learn the range on his moves (including the disjointedness of attacks like uair and f-smash), learn how fast they come out and end (including the height needed for lagless dairs), learn how to abuse the smallest openings (Sonic can punish anything, or almost anything). Learn his old faints and techs from vBrawl (spinshot, iSDJ, shield cancels, ect.)

Then, add on the Brawl+ stuff, such as fair chains, uair juggles, dash dance length, pivot moves (pivot jab, smashes, jumps, grabs, and empty pivots are fairly simple), dash cancel approaches (though mostly punishers IMO. Sonic doesn't have many ground approaches), ect.

Sonic will not win a head on fight with most of the cast. He will be outprioritized or out ranged by a lot of the upper tier characters if you attack them head on, and even from the mid tier and below you won't be that successful just trying to overpower them (it works sort of, but you don't get much from it). However, Sonic has a lot of maneuverability (mostly on the ground, but he's not to shabby in the air either). You should use this to simply go around the opponent's attacks, focusing on their blind spots, and also to bait and punish attacks (nobody baits attacks better than Sonic). Every time that you punish them, make it count. You'll be able to combo for a little while, but what's more important is that you can use the combo to force the opponent into a disadvantageous position and the combo them again. For most characters you want to send them up so that you can take advantage of your amazing uair. Sonic also has a few tricks up his sleaves if you really need to tear through your opponent's moves. His side B and up smash have invincibility frames (I'll get back to you with the exact frame count, but I believe side B is 6 frames starting at the release of the attack), his uair, bair, f-smash, and up tilt have a lot of disjointedness (nothing comparable to high tier stuff though), uair, bair, f-smash (notice I said these twice), f-tilt, d-tilt, and d-smash all have decent range (most noticeably pivot f-smash, which I use to consistently outspace approaches).

With edgeguarding, be very liberal. You have a great recovery, might as well use it. Go for the first few hits of that fair to drag them down with you, go for that soft bair, go for that dair off the stage. Use that homing attack for your fancy edgeguard. Trust me, you will make it back. Heck, leave a spring in their path while you're at it.

Tech chasing...is really easy for Sonic. Heck you can just watch them tech and just react to which way they move and still get something (you often get more when you predict their tech and position yourself first though). No tech? Jab reset or Jab lock infinite (will be taken out when we figure out how to get rid of jab locks). Tech in place? Grab. Tech roll? Dash grab. It's that easy and can be done purely on reaction.

Anyway, let me tell you right now that there are many different styles for playing Sonic. Some rely heavily on his various spin techs (ASC shield cancel, SD shield cancel, spinshot, iSDJ, ect.) Some are more ground based playing a poking game with his tilts, some are campy, some are aggressive, just try out a bunch of different things and see what's best for you.

momentum code out. Guess how many lines. Cmon don't peak
I think I just jizzed in my pants again.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
Momentum code is good, but needs a bit of work.

My experiences:

Ganon thunderstorming 1/4 of FD per jump.
Falcon run off a battlefield platform with uair and landing halfway under the one on the other side.
Sonic run off FD and fair and reaching the magnifying glass.

Second jump kills all momentum (its a good thing)
Also, the CC from a run, you now slide. Do a forward or down smash and you stop instantly. (New AT, dash sliding)

Its an EXCELLENT code, it just needs to be toned down to about 80% of where it is. Then retest it from there.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
what's great about this code is that it tells us which moves stop momentum.
(insert B move or smash attack other than U smash here)

Slow down the kept momentum a bit (about 80%) and make CC stop you alot faster and we got it made!

Edit: I SOOOOO have to try this with tripping *mods tripping to 90%*

Ok, funniest thing ever.

Ike fully charged forward B against DDD suck. Already sent him flying. Now he just dies. Like you wouldnt believe.

Metaknight can dashing SH fair and cover the entire diamond on FD. ROFL. Too crazy.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
this is totally awesome. Tood bad pit gets like nothing from it :(

Welcome back spunit. We missed you!!

Do you think you can edit your merger so that its just dash speed and fixed jump speed modifier code? That would be really sweet! If we can have the FF as a stand alone code, that would work well for my code set
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
God **** it. I WAS gonna go to bed, but now that this code is out, I'm curious. (bought a used Brawl for the sake of B+. Yesterday made be so broke. Spent over $400 on gaming ****, go dedication.)

**** it, making me get out of my cozy bed and in front of the TV.. AGAIN.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
Spunit, any chance of Dash Speed and Fixed Jump speed modifier only as well please?

Osi, I havent tried it with Beta 2 yet. But this will definetly be a part of Beta 3 and we will fix any and all issues.
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
This. Is. Beautiful.

Falcon is back. He truly is back to his Melee glory. This is what I always wanted to do, what I wished I could do, and now I'm soaring out of the stage into a glorious flying knee of justice. Words cannot do this feat justice. It brings a tear to the eye.

Well, not quite, actually. We still need Scar jumping back, and moonwalking as well (though the way this code interacts with RAR probably makes for an adequate substitute, though it doesn't look as cool).

And yeah, I agree, this code needs a little bit of toning down, because it is kind of ridiculous how much distance Falcon can cover. But other than that, it's an amazing code, and it's a steal at 1 measly line.
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
5,695
Location
Olympia, WA
NNID
Shadoof
Oh gods, jump momentum! Right after PlasmaTorture and I played a bunch of games.

I'm trying this tonight.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
Thinking if we can limit this to jumps only and giving it 80% of what it is now it will be perfect.

Anyone try running off the stage with fair with Sonic?

WHOOO HOOOOO!
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Thinking if we can limit this to jumps only and giving it 80% of what it is now it will be perfect.

Anyone try running off the stage with fair with Sonic?

WHOOO HOOOOO!
B Boosting just got buffed. Do pits side b off the stage. Do Gaws side b off stage, do any b boost

Pm sent to pw
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
Holy corn flakes! This is so exciting! I can't wait to try this out--- tomorrow after an extreme anatomy and physiology test!

I've come to the understanding, reading peoples comments, that this code needs to be toned down a bit, hopefully that's possible! :)

I'd like it to work as practically as possible!

Phantom Wings is the best!
 

Xaej

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
48
Location
Florida
Wow, very excited to try this one out tomorrow! (it seems many of us have exams on wednesdays..)

From the sound of things there's already a growing consensus that it needs to be toned down a bit (i.e. sonic fair lolling), but at least we retain momentum now! woohoo!!
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
Yeah, I have an exam tomorrow as well, but I didn't care. I had to test this.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
For those that havent seen it.

Sonic runs off
Sonic fairs
Sonic is in the magnifying glass.

Trying to look into knocking this down to keeping 80% of momentum and getting rid of the off the ledge stuff (affected by jumps only).
 

SGX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Messages
232
Yeah, this code definitely needs some tweaking, but this is still really exciting.

I don't think it needs to be toned down for the slower characters though, because its definitely not too powerful for them.

Falcon slides wayyy too much when he lands. ROB's side B is pretty ridiculous.
 
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