Community Patch Project

[MegaMissingno]

The only problem I have with Crash Bomber is that you can be harmed by the explosion even when it's not stuck to you. As long as they didn't manage to stick it to you then you ought to be immune, just like most other characters who can make explosions.

 

[Raijinken]

The only problem I have with Crash Bomber is that you can be harmed by the explosion even when it's not stuck to you. As long as they didn't manage to stick it to you then you ought to be immune, just like most other characters who can make explosions.

Off the top of my head, Samus and Mii Gunner are the only characters immune to their own explosions. Link, Tink, and Dog are all susceptible (unless you count clay disc shots as explosions). Diddy's barrels will hurt him (but not detonate on contact) if he's too close when they explode. PSI Flash isn't the same sort of explosion but I guess it technically doesn't hurt Ness (nor does PK Fire). I can't recall if Bowser Jr's will hurt him or not if the enemy ran into it and it did the jump-explode, but I know it will hurt him if it detonates over time or if it's thrown by anyone, self included.

But I generally agree with that line of thinking. Currently it seems to carry the risk of the Gooey Bomb item with far less reward (though at the same time the self-stick penalty is comparably low).

 

[MegaMissingno]

Huh, could've sworn I saw a loading screen tip say that Link's bombs don't hurt him when they hit a foe.

 

[madworlder]

The only problem I have with Crash Bomber is that you can be harmed by the explosion even when it's not stuck to you. As long as they didn't manage to stick it to you then you ought to be immune, just like most other characters who can make explosions.

I don't think this is a bad thing for Mega Man. It makes the opponent see a reward in approaching, even if they can't stick the bomb to him, which gives Mega Man a chance to punish the approach.

 

[Raijinken]

Huh, could've sworn I saw a loading screen tip say that Link's bombs don't hurt him when they hit a foe.

I could be wrong, I'm going off of old info remembered from past games, which may not apply here.

I don't think this is a bad thing for Mega Man. It makes the opponent see a reward in approaching, even if they can't stick the bomb to him, which gives Mega Man a chance to punish the approach.

It also lets Megaman see a penalty in approaching, which is his only option to start any sort of killing move. It has to be used with extreme care. It's not bad, just more double-edged than most moves designed for distancing.

 

[Shaya]

the point is every move in the game can be used in some way

if the argument is that if it can be used it doesn't need to be buffed, this entire topic becomes completely pointless.

I'm pretty sure he actually gave you a really well thought out reply and you kinda discarded it rudely.
I agree the move is underwhelming, but what justifies making it a charge move? Honestly, it's actually a really swell idea. Is her maximum charges on it extremely abusive (in a bubble)? You need to think about that. Small frame data charges or number changes wouldn't be as cool, but is more likely and easier to quantify the impacts.

I think at this stage, some character's are going to be a lot more complicated to tackle than others (i.e. low/bottom tiers who actually need major fixes). Perhaps instead of identifying how things should be changed at this stage, it's better to properly identify what should be changed. I think many people could say it's obvious that the Phantom is underwhelming, hell, compare it to what Sheik gained in BOUNCING FISH. Should it be changed functionally or should it just have its risk/reward tuned.

Making Zelda's multihit moves not be so easy to fall out of could have a large impact on her consistency, but by all rhyme and reason I think we're fair to say things like that aren't positive interactions and don't have a place staying in the game, power level spikes or otherwise. With those fixes, who knows how much better she could feel with an option or two she has to optimally avoid because of their deficiencies.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's Zelda, @ Shaya

She's bound to be bottom tier in this game if she is left untouched. Even with the things I suggested, she'd be upper mid tier material at most.

And I didn't discard it rudely.

I just discarded it.

 

[BJN39]

I still think a hold able full charge Phantom will never happen tbh. BUT, I could see an after release end lag IASA window happening.

Anyways, I definitely agree that simple multi hit improvements are not going to make THAT much of a difference in her metagame that suddenly alternate buffs are out the window. Usmash still has those badly shrunken hit-boxes, and both still don't have frame data to brag about. Heck, they even nerfed the startup of Usmash making it slower than nearly half the casts' Usmashs.

Also, [aerial] Din's fire is still really slow, (It's dins fire.) and bad use over the edge will leave you wide open, even if it could be recovered from. We just wanna not accidentally SD, really.

 

[Spirst]

Is this simply a matter of his multi-hit smashes not connecting consistently? If so, consider this accepted.

That's exactly what it is. If you don't space the fsmash a certain way, the hitboxes for the three reticles won't connect properly and the second reticle hitbox will cause the other character to slide back past where the 3rd hitbox would've connected. The second reticle does horizontal pushback to connect with the third knockback-dealing reticle but it's not very consistent and screws with KOs for a character who has KO options as one of his biggest issues. Dsmash also suffers from this issue.

ZSS is a character whose moves were mostly fixed for consistency but DH was glazed over.

 

[RODO]

I don't know how I forgot this but Samus's down B is almost useless now. Not only do the bombs not explode on impact but the amount of recovery time from using the move makes it not even worth it other than as a recovery mixup. I think either reducing recovery time or making the bombs explode on impact would be fair. Both might be a little too much.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Adjustments to Zelda's Phantom Slash will definitely be taken into consideration and discussed. Seems like there's universal agreement that the move needs to be changed but there are multiple suggestions on how it could be done. I'm definitely on the same page as Shaya on this one. If we touch a move like that in the wrong place there's a good chance that it could become too powerful quite easily. But I acknowkledge that move has some fundamental problems that makes it pretty useless right now.

Something that might work for the move would be to increase the amount of frames the Phantom stays out on the battlefield in order to serve as a shield for Zelda. By doing so we could leave the move itself almost completely unchanged and still give it some sort of use by having its hurtbox stay out for a bit longer. The move would work in a similar fashion as DHD's Gunman except that it has a sword instead of a projectile. How about that?

Responding to other individual posts in a moment.

 

[J0A0B]

If I may make a few suggestions...

For Charizard:

- In addition to the increase of hit stun for Jab 1, I think the range of his jabs should be increased a slight bit, particularly from behind. Because Charizard is a big character and he slouches, his hurtbox is tremendously huge and vulnerable for people to hide safely behind him real close. Many characters are capable of hitting from behind with their jab attacks, but that is not the case with Charizard. Aside from his N-Air and tilts with slight endlag, the jab is pretty much his safest method for counteractive defense and should be encouraged as a general move to control spacing when opponents attempt to poke him away.

- His down smash is decent in range and speed, although it's startup can generally still be abuse with quick attacks. But a big issue with this move is that it barely works against opponents who dodge despite looking as if they were hit in the process. Sheik can dodge this extremely easily with two dodge rolls within his range. I don't know if it is suggested to nerf rolls to be more punishable, but if that's not the case, I think the down smash needs a few more attack frames to be more effective when predicting opponents that dodge roll past Charizard.

For Wario:

- I've been noticing how effective Wario's bite can be from a distant range. Even when I attack from a far range with distant jabs or tilts, his bite will still connect and this can lead to annoying spamming, particularly from the air, especially since its unblockable and spot dodging doesn't always work. The range of this attack should be reduced similarly to Kirby's or Dedede's inhale attacks. Abusing this attack from a fair distance does not seem legit and should only be used when the opponent is guaranteed to be close enough to his hurtbox.

 

[iLLuMinati_EYE]

Changes:

• 3rd hit on his AAA combo needs to come out faster so it can avoid being interrupted before connecting.

• Falco's side-B needs to have a hitbox throughout the whole animation instead of half of it.

•Reduce landing lag on dair

•Possibly Reduce lag on lasers so he can short hop lasers like in brawl

ONLINE CHANGES:
•Allow competitive stages with platforms to be randomly chosen instead of all omega forms ex. Battlefield, town and city, smashville, Halberd etc

•Region/Connection filtering, have players select specific region and connection in which they want to match make with players before heading online

• Connection quality bar between two players before a match starts on the character select screen

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Going into Kirby issues in a different post as it seems to be quite a bit of content to chew on.

Are the changes to samus that I suggested at all viable?

I don't know how I forgot this but Samus's down B is almost useless now. Not only do the bombs not explode on impact but the amount of recovery time from using the move makes it not even worth it other than as a recovery mixup. I think either reducing recovery time or making the bombs explode on impact would be fair. Both might be a little too much.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the post where you made your suggestions. I'll get into them if you can show me where you made them.

As far as her downB is concerned I actually think it got buffed up quite a bit as its increased hitstun and delayed explosion can set up some pretty nasty stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC-NAuwq_4I&list=UUNv79F5Fx79hjo1FHqJ2yew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G99HoeCbZoI&list=UUNv79F5Fx79hjo1FHqJ2yew

It does't look like there's anything wrong with that move that requires adjustments if you ask me.

Lucario stuff.

Agreed.

DK stuff

Again, this is not a wishlist for buffs. Either convincingly explain what's wrong with the risk/reward ratio of these moves or accept the fact that nothing so far indicates that DK is so fundamentally flawed a character that certain buffs are needed to make him usable.

I'd love to bring Ness's D-Smash to discussion. In past games, the charging animation had a hitbox on the extended yo-yo, and it could be used reliably as an edgeguarding tool. For whatever reason, that hitbox was entirely removed in this iteration. Ness isn't a bad character by any means, but this would be a good tool to return to his arsenal without tipping the scales much at all.

Unless there's some sort of inconsistency with the move's hitbox or it's utterly worthless there's like no chance that this will be accepted.

Just a note about Samus's jab not comboing, that's actually mentioned in one of the loading screen tips. So apparently it's a deliberate design decision. I'm not really sure why, but it's probably not likely to change.

That may be true but doesn't change the fact that there's a bit of a hole left in Samus' character design due to it. If jab 1 not consistently linking into jab 2 is intended to be that way then suggesting to fix it will not be helpful. But I think a different "compromise" solution would at least be worth discussing.

Wario & Charizard stuff

Sorry but these won't happen. As far as I can see your problems with these moves are entirely based on your personal preference.

Falco stuff

Suggestions on jab and side B are accepted. Buffs on Lasers and dair are personal wishes of yours that lack any objective backing and will not be considered without a very good explanation.
QoL adjustments are OK.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I talked about Doc like, a page or two back. Might be worth looking into even though it was only one minor suggestion (although I think it would be drastically helpful)

 

[GameAngel64]

Something that might work for the move would be to increase the amount of frames the Phantom stays out on the battlefield in order to serve as a shield for Zelda.

Maybe someone below this post has mentioned this thought already, but if the Phantom stays out longer that would just provide more opportunity for an opponent to run in and destroy it since a lot of folks can destroy it in one hit, thereby leaving Zelda without the Phantom at all for a while. In order for it to be buffed as an effective shield, it would also need to have more HP before it is destroyed, in my opinion. Though I am not sure how much just having it stand around longer would help anyway.

 

[san.]

I must ask then about direction.
I'll use Swordfighter as an example as he's probably one of the more obvious examples.
Considerable lag on his aerials, lack of damage on them as well except for U-air and a well placed F-air.
Laggy ground game that lacks weight. Throws do mediocre damage, and his D-air/U-air as set-up throws fall short of that goal. There is several more moves we could dissect and note their problems.
If you are advocating a buff then, then what do you say in order to remain as "truthful" to Nintendo's vision? His considerable lag? The damage? Unintuitive Knockback strength and angles?

Likewise with Kirby, I could talk about Inhales Copy ability or the lag, but to me it's biggest offense is that it is shieldable. Which is one of the stronger reasons for Leaping Inhale as the preferred customs, before we get into that it is less likely to be punished, its greater ability to gimp/reposition and recovery benefits. Inhales has for a very long time been a lackluster ability with multiple problems, being hit right after you copy is just another flaw, given the ease of being knocked out of copy in general. This is not to advocate that the move should be perfect but reiterating if there is an expectation of how we tackle these suggestions? If it's me I say Kirbys Inhale should go through Shields. Turning it into a true Command Grab, creates the proper Risk/Reward ratio by increasing the probability of success. Leaping inhale still retains its benefits as a positioning tool but Inhale would now be comparable on a general level, and Kirby could utilize his main gimmick to actually talk about his MU balance instead of his inhale-less game.


Returning to Mii fighter, again his damage is low, he lacks set-ups and his projectiles don't create many situations for him, partially because of his lag after use, and their hit mechanics. He is capable of going completely devoid of any projectiles but Slash Launcher is mediocre, and Neutral 3 isn't a kill move to boot, with its damage also being unreliable given the ability of some characters to leave the hitbox. Up 1 is completely godawful, with piss poor damage, and piss poor recovery.
To me giving him the D-throw set-up to potential trap with early U-air/utilts, F-air and N-air would create a better balance for him given otherwise unreliable and/or poor rewards as a whole.

Agree with these, moreso swordfighter having many poor height/weight ratios. I find that a short, heavy Mii has low end lag on his normals with good damage.

• Nair: 12->10 frame startup. 5->7 damage
  A laggy nair should at least deal decent damage. 5 damage makes it extremely punishable for being such a slow move. Compare to any other nair and it's quite obvious. If it stays at 12 frames, increase the damage to 8. If it stays at 5 damage, decrease the frames to 9.
• Fair: 11 frame startup -> 8 frames. Slightly reduce the end lag in the air
  11 frames are as slow as attacks like Charizard's fair, while the move looks like it should be fast at startup
• Dair: 14 frames startup -> 12 frames.
  Dair deals low damage and lasts a long time. It's quite good once it comes out, but it's slow for the type of attack it is, like a poor mix of Kirby's and Bowser Jr's dairs
• Usmash: Shift the hitbox so that it can hit grounded opponents better.
  Usmash often whiffs against people right in front of him, and you only need to block the first hit.
• Globally increase throw damage by 2-3 except for down throw. Increase pummel speed by a bit.
  Dthrow is the only worthwhile throw to ever use. The others don't really do much of anything except for the basics of getting them offstage.
• Jab1: 7->6 frames
  It is useless compared to his 5 frame dtilt. This would give a better option for a slightly more ranged attack
  
  Other normals seem okay or purposefully risky.
  
  Standard Special
  
• Gale Strike: Slightly increase startup, greatly reduce end lag. Slightly increase damage
  The end lag on this move is atrocious, but reducing it would make it too spammable. That's why I think increasing startup by a bit and reducing endlag would make it a nice long ranged tool for followups if they get hit, but a relatively poor camping tool.
• Shuriken of Light: 1->4 minimum damage
  It's already pretty good, but the damage decrease is severe. 4 minimum damage makes it more usable
• Blurring Blade: should be able to combo into the last hit. Uncharged should carry aerial momentum. The longer you charge, the more distance you gain. Slightly decrease max charge's distance.
  This move doesn't hit properly and it sucks to use it in the air.
  
  Side Special
  
• Airborne Assault: No freefall if you hit someone with less lag. No freefall if you touch the ground.
  You can use this move and suicide if you slide off the stage. Not very intuitive to use.
• Slash Launcher: Less endlag and greater distance. No freefall if you hit someone. Much less lag after hitting someone.
  It's just a laggier, shorter Quick Draw. If you hit someone at the edge when recovering, you die!
  
  Up Specials
• Greater vertical distance on all the specials.
  The distance is pretty pitiful for all 3, perhaps only mediocre for Hero's Spin
  
  Down Specials imo are good. Perhaps Reversal Slash should last a little bit longer, but that's it.
  
  So overall, reduce the startup on some of the crappy aerials and net buffs to his specials. Damage is good, and a few aspects with utilt, uair, and dthrow are perhaps brokenly good and may need to be toned down.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I agree with your normal changes at a glance they are well targeted.
However I would say this about two specials.
Shuriken requires quick IASA frames or reduced recovery to really differentiate it from Chakram. As it is now the only justification of it is 'I don't want chakram' and maybe being 3 frames less lag. Inconsistent damage + less flexibility don't cut it. The two moves seem to directly compete as you would not take both. The only other remedy would be to increase the maximum not minimum. Chakram does 7% throughout and shurikens Max is 8%...tippered. You may see where the reward isn't justified.

Up 1 does 5-3-3-5 damage with only 2-3 hits being confirmable. This seems to be that por recovery that makes up for it in damage. Which is fine to have but given not all 4 hits can be confirmed it fails.
I propose the middle hits change to 5.5% damage instead of a recovery boost with the beginning and end moving to 6%.
This will put it at 11.5-17% damage from 8-11%. Which justifies the poor recovery.

 

[san.]

I agree with your normal changes at a glance they are well targeted.
However I would say this about two specials.
Shuriken requires quick IASA frames or reduced recovery to really differentiate it from Chakram. As it is now the only justification of it is 'I don't want chakram' and maybe being 3 frames less lag. Inconsistent damage + less flexibility don't cut it. The two moves seem to directly compete as you would not take both. The only other remedy would be to increase the maximum not minimum. Chakram does 7% throughout and shurikens Max is 8%...tippered. You may see where the reward isn't justified.

Up 1 does 5-3-3-5 damage with only 2-3 hits being confirmable. This seems to be that por recovery that makes up for it in damage. Which is fine to have but given not all 4 hits can be confirmed it fails.
I propose the middle hits change to 5.5% damage instead of a recovery boost with the beginning and end moving to 6%.
This will put it at 11.5-17% damage from 8-11%. Which justifies the poor recovery.

Yeah, Chakram was weird to place so I just skipped it. It feels like Chakram and Blurring Blade should've switched places.

 

[RODO]

Samus needs a lot of fixing but I think what would help her more right now is decreasing some of the landing lag on a few of her aerials and decrease lag or start up time on missiles. Right now her projectile game is weak because of the amount of downtime you experience after firing missiles. So either there needs to be less lag afterwards or they just need to come out faster. They don't even have to be cancellable.

On her aerials her strength as a character comes from how good of an anti-air character she is due to how she can out prioritize people with aerials. Thing is, however, is that she is lacking in the neutral game because her grounded options are kind of poor. If she had less lag off of aerials upon landing then shorthopped aerials for approaching could help her in the neutral.

Needs less lag off of his nair so that it completely autocancels upon fast falling (like his bair).

More buffs in general. Better recovery for and

This is what I said Gheb_01. Mostly the missile stuff because I feel like she is a zoning character that zones poorly.

 

[Utena]

@Sakurai the entire point of GCN controller compatibility is to make things intuitive for veteran players, so why not make it work like it has in previous installments?

shoulders should be changed to hard press only like in brawl, and the cstick should stop arresting aerial momentum/charging smashes

 

[Sideswipe]

I personally think Meta Knight's B-air spike should be removed but it should be added back to his F-air. I've been using MK since the 3ds version came out and I love his feel but I really loved the ability to F-air spike and setup for damage-racking combos (which are so rare in this game).

Edit: To elaborate on why it should return, MK currently has three consistent damage-building setups at low percents (these work consistently up to ~25-40% depending on the combo): Dash attack, up tilt (if you're lucky, 2 up tilts or an up smash), and an air attack (maybe 2 if you uair), Fthrow/Dthrow, dash attack, F-air (sometimes even another grab but that's not consistent) and Uthrow, side b. Past 70%, there aren't too many options to setup for his kill moves other than dash attack into short hop SL and this can be air dodged/DI'd easily. Other than that MK can only really get kills by reading and punishing mistakes.

I'm sure some of you have seen the 0-40% MK F-air spike combo video on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fllS4Ke2IN8
This still works on 1.04 but only with B-air which is not practical considering 1) This is his aerial kill move so you're trading off stage control for a chance at more damage and 2) B-air spike (much like F-air spike) can be teched before the setup meaning its better to send the opponent off stage and space than to luck into getting between 14-36% (assuming you neutral B and get the full 22%). By removing B-air spike and shifting it back over to F-air, MK players can diversify their playstyle and use F-air more often than just for a 7% dash attack follow-up while still keeping revelance in B-airs high killing power.

The Fair/Bair spike has counterplay as this is not a hard spike and can be jump cancelled very early off stage and teched on stage (as mentioned before). I feel by adding this effect back to his F-air MK players are given the option to approach high and still setup for combos without depending on dash attack/throw combos. It also forces enemies to respect MK's aerial approach and to tech or take damage.

Incorporating this change will solidify MK's status as the best mid tier character IMO

By the way sorry if some things don't make much sense. English isn't my first language

Other than that the suggestion for his hitbox matching his range has already been mentioned so I'm good. Diddy D-throw should launch the enemy further away from diddy past 50% but I feel something similar has already been suggested.

 

[Johnknight1]

I don't see why classic C-stick functionality that was in Melee and Brawl wouldn't be back as at least an option. It's very unintuitive for them to to that, especially without actually telling the players about the changes.

I also agree you shouldn't be able to tech spikes (well mostly just true spikes) on the ground. That shouldn't be possible IMO, and it takes some of the offensive thrill.

I also do think the whole "character balance" approach for competitive play shouldn't be to nerf the top characters to where everyone feels like a mid-tier, but to make all the characters feel like a high tier character. Obviously we don't want anything truly boring or near impossible to punish being allowed (Rosaluma camping for instance), but we should allow the offense and defense for each character to open itself up to many viable options. This shouldn't be too hard to do since the character differences from a weight and aerial drop speed/DI standpoint are minimally different in this game.

 

[BJN39]

Adjustments to Zelda's Phantom Slash will definitely be taken into consideration and discussed. Seems like there's universal agreement that the move needs to be changed but there are multiple suggestions on how it could be done. I'm definitely on the same page as Shaya on this one. If we touch a move like that in the wrong place there's a good chance that it could become too powerful quite easily. But I acknowkledge that move has some fundamental problems that makes it pretty useless right now.

Something that might work for the move would be to increase the amount of frames the Phantom stays out on the battlefield in order to serve as a shield for Zelda. By doing so we could leave the move itself almost completely unchanged and still give it some sort of use by having its hurtbox stay out for a bit longer. The move would work in a similar fashion as DHD's Gunman except that it has a sword instead of a projectile. How about that?

Glad to hear it will be considered for discussion!

As for your design idea for Phantom. Yes, that IS one way it could be tackled, but I'm not sure it would be the best design to go for it in the long run.

For one, as mentioned by @ GameAngel64 , you'd end up having to increase its life bar for this to be a effective design. As right now, it only can take 12%. If it takes 13%+ it's gone for 6 whole seconds. Increasing its HP will end up either being too much or too little.
It could take a charge shot, (25%) but that would be too strong for sure, and need reverting. But any less and it would likely still be too low to take enough while it's out, which will be an extended period without any offensive capabilities. This design of long lasting works better for DHD because his "shield's" attack happens at the end, making running up to it a risk/reward of will it hit you before you destroy it.

Right now, how I see its defensive capabilities is that it can be a decent temp shield for the campy weak projectiles, and for dash attacks. As like, 90% of dash attacks don't do more than 12%. It can also make people whiff on you when close-ish because of its body pushing hit-box, but that's less the optimal utilization.
Since it's only out for roughly 2 seconds at full charge, you opponent has to make the decision of whether it's worth it or not to try and destroy it or not since it's only out that long. (It may disappear before you reach it with a 13% move, etc.) Instead of then it being a sitting duck while it's out for an extended period.

Also, go into training and do full charged Phantom, release while holding shield. Doesn't it kind of FEEL like there's a time when you should be able to act, that isn't there? Like, I always feel like Zelda should be able to start moving almost as soon as she starts lowering her arm after releasing the Phantom. It's one of the things I think of when I say Phantom feels very stiff.

Thus, an IASA window. Aside from making jumping over her Phantom less free hit-ish while she's releasing it, it would also make the release a whole lot smoother feeling IMO, and actually, that ITSELF would increase the duration the Phantom would be out in a useful manner to maybe 2.5 seconds at full charge.

tbh, just the IASA change on Phantom would be good with me. The blind spot fix though I believe should happen as a "Quality of Life" change, as I'm certain it was not an intended design.

 

[Z1GMA]

Make it possible to buffer multiple inputs like in Brawl where you could buffer a turnaround Dtilt in the opposite direction when landing the other way, etc.

it would make the game flow better, and more fastpaced in general.

 

[Unknownkid]

...Are you sure this is not some big wish list where Santa Gheb_1 gets to decide who deserve it or not? Meh... whatever.

Kirby

Have the ability to combo/follow up out of D-throw. Most characters can perform this task flawlessly-- heck even Swordfighter can do it. D-throw already does the least much of damage of all his throws. If any Kirby preform D-throw, its usually off of habit or because it looks cool. It would not hurt to have this option.

If D-throw is not suffice, then how about increasing Kirby's Air Speed.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2inca4/air_speed_comparison_of_all_characters/

Based on this chart, the Pink Puff Ball's air speed is downright terrible. He is the 3rd lightest character and his Air Speed is worse than Bowser? Look! I'm not asking for an Air Speed of Rank S (Jigglypuff, Wario and Yoshi). I am suggest an Air Speed of Rank C (B might be pushing it). This will increase his combo/approach potential but not make him too crazy.

I believe that is it. Maybe a Disjointed Hitbox on his Up Air so stuff like this http://puu.sh/d473k/5a5aaa2c4e.webm does not happen will be nice as well.

Agree with these, moreso swordfighter having many poor height/weight ratios. I find that a short, heavy Mii has low end lag on his normals with good damage.

• Nair: 12->10 frame startup. 5->7 damage
  A laggy nair should at least deal decent damage. 5 damage makes it extremely punishable for being such a slow move. Compare to any other nair and it's quite obvious. If it stays at 12 frames, increase the damage to 8. If it stays at 5 damage, decrease the frames to 9.
• Fair: 11 frame startup -> 8 frames. Slightly reduce the end lag in the air
  11 frames are as slow as attacks like Charizard's fair, while the move looks like it should be fast at startup
• Dair: 14 frames startup -> 12 frames.
  Dair deals low damage and lasts a long time. It's quite good once it comes out, but it's slow for the type of attack it is, like a poor mix of Kirby's and Bowser Jr's dairs
• Usmash: Shift the hitbox so that it can hit grounded opponents better.
  Usmash often whiffs against people right in front of him, and you only need to block the first hit.
• Globally increase throw damage by 2-3 except for down throw. Increase pummel speed by a bit.
  Dthrow is the only worthwhile throw to ever use. The others don't really do much of anything except for the basics of getting them offstage.
• Jab1: 7->6 frames
  It is useless compared to his 5 frame dtilt. This would give a better option for a slightly more ranged attack
  
  Other normals seem okay or purposefully risky.
  
  Standard Special
  
• Gale Strike: Slightly increase startup, greatly reduce end lag. Slightly increase damage
  The end lag on this move is atrocious, but reducing it would make it too spammable. That's why I think increasing startup by a bit and reducing endlag would make it a nice long ranged tool for followups if they get hit, but a relatively poor camping tool.
• Shuriken of Light: 1->4 minimum damage
  It's already pretty good, but the damage decrease is severe. 4 minimum damage makes it more usable
• Blurring Blade: should be able to combo into the last hit. Uncharged should carry aerial momentum. The longer you charge, the more distance you gain. Slightly decrease max charge's distance.
  This move doesn't hit properly and it sucks to use it in the air.
  
  Side Special
  
• Airborne Assault: No freefall if you hit someone with less lag. No freefall if you touch the ground.
  You can use this move and suicide if you slide off the stage. Not very intuitive to use.
• Slash Launcher: Less endlag and greater distance. No freefall if you hit someone. Much less lag after hitting someone.
  It's just a laggier, shorter Quick Draw. If you hit someone at the edge when recovering, you die!
  
  Up Specials
• Greater vertical distance on all the specials.
  The distance is pretty pitiful for all 3, perhaps only mediocre for Hero's Spin
  
  Down Specials imo are good. Perhaps Reversal Slash should last a little bit longer, but that's it.
  
  So overall, reduce the startup on some of the crappy aerials and net buffs to his specials. Damage is good, and a few aspects with utilt, uair, and dthrow are perhaps brokenly good and may need to be toned down.

For the most part, I agree with you. Though, I believe Reversal Slash is fine. I feel as if it last longer than Mario's Cape.

Are you sure about Slash Launcher? I find it better than Quick Draw. It doesn't stop at the opponent, it goes right through them. Yes, even the air version does this. I have died from using AA but never suicide with SL.

Higher Up Special will be nice but I believe a wall jump will be better. Swordfighter already has the lowest jump and cannot wall jump compared to the other 2 classes. I mean Little Mac can Jump Wall. Megaman can Jump Wall. Villager can Jump Wall?!

Anyways, why aren't you and ChronoPenguin assisting the Swordfighter Thread? I know he/she is terrible but we can still try to make him "viable" with what we have.

 

[san.]

For the most part, I agree with you. Though, I believe Reversal Slash is fine. I feel as if it last longer than Mario's Cape.

Perhaps you're right. It probably feels more difficult to use since it's downB instead of sideB for me, which takes a bit more time to input suddenly.

Are you sure about Slash Launcher? I find it better than Quick Draw. It doesn't stop at the opponent, it goes right through them. Yes, even the air version does this. I have died from using AA but never suicide with SL.

I am sure. I have used Slash Launcher towards the ledge, it hit my opponent, but then my guy just.. falls and doesn't grab the ledge. It's much worse than quick draw since it doesn't go as far and doesn't autocancel from a full hop/onto platforms easily so you're more likely to get punished if you land onstage.

Higher Up Special will be nice but I believe a wall jump will be better. Swordfighter already has the lowest jump and cannot wall jump compared to the other 2 classes. I mean Little Mac can Jump Wall. Megaman can Jump Wall. Villager can Jump Wall?!

There is a logical sequence for characters who are and aren't able to wall jump, except for perhaps Toon Link. Sword characters by design have somewhat telegraphed recoveries and no wall jump.

Anyways, why aren't you and ChronoPenguin assisting the Swordfighter Thread? I know he/she is terrible but we can still try to make him "viable" with what we have.

I've been using him with suboptimal height+weight conditions, but only just now took a more serious look at him since you can't VI out of his dthrow and utilt combos anymore. He has some ridiculous strengths (17 damage uair?) with quite a few weaknesses. There's really not much other than having solid fundamentals assuming most have gotten his basic combos down. I don't think he's "terrible" considering how good dthrow, uair, bair, utilt, dtilt, and natural positives from being a short+heavy Mii, but the lopsidedness only makes him okay instead of great to me. Many, many characters would want his dthrow->uair and uair->utilt traps. Dair is quite good as well, surprisingly.

 

[Unknownkid]

Perhaps you're right. It probably feels more difficult to use since it's downB instead of sideB for me, which takes a bit more time to input suddenly.

Haha, I see your point.

I am sure. I have used Slash Launcher towards the ledge, it hit my opponent, but then my guy just.. falls and doesn't grab the ledge. It's much worse than quick draw since it doesn't go as far and doesn't autocancel from a full hop/onto platforms easily so you're more likely to get punished if you land onstage.

Hmm... I see. I need go back and test the ledge problem. You are right about autocancel though.

There is a logical sequence for characters who are and aren't able to wall jump, except for perhaps Toon Link. Sword characters by design have somewhat telegraphed recoveries and no wall jump.

Marth and his clone(s). I see your point though.

I've been using him with suboptimal height+weight conditions, but only just now took a more serious look at him since you can't VI out of his dthrow and utilt combos anymore. He has some ridiculous strengths (17 damage uair?) with quite a few weaknesses. There's really not much other than having solid fundamentals assuming most have gotten his basic combos down. I don't think he's "terrible" considering how good dthrow, uair, bair, utilt, dtilt, and natural positives from being a short+heavy Mii, but the lopsidedness only makes him okay instead of great to me. Many, many characters would want his dthrow->uair and uair->utilt traps. Dair is quite good as well, surprisingly.

Sorry, I was using the term "bad/terrible" loosely. I like and having fun with Swordfighter. There is some things that could have done better but meh, I will make him work. Shoot,man, I know about U-air. This move is too good! Well, I'm glad to see more Swordfighters. Thank you for contributing to and reviving a Lost Civilization.

 

[t!MmY]

Kirby is currently considered to be one of the weaker characters mainly by process of elimination. Has anything happened in this game's meta so far that indicates that Kirby is a fundamentally flawed character or does he just happen to be a bit worse than most others?

The primary problem Kirby has in the current game is that he is a close-quarters fighter that has inadequate tools to get in close, or to approach in general. Furthermore his hitboxes are also his own hurtboxes which makes distancing attacks on the opponent ('pokes' and 'footises') unintuitive and contrary to his own gameplay. Combine this with slow speed - both ground speed as well as air speed - and it's easy to see why Kirby suffers in various match-ups across the roster.

Despite these setbacks, Kirby does not need any major buffs. I would go so far as to say that he doesn't even need very many buffs in general. The problem arises in trying to give Kirby sufficient tools to get in close-quarters on 'fast' characters or 'campy' characters without having him bulldoze through everything as well as be a decent fighter when he gets into his preferred range. Project M tried their hand at it by giving Kirby an improved (Melee) Dash Attack and a new technique with Final Cutter (a fast, horizontal slash). I feel this is not exactly the best way of going about it because those two moves overshadowed Kirby's other options as well as gave the character a decidedly awkward play style.

A simple solution would simply to increase his mobility which would allow him to capitalize on his opponent's openings, or in many cases to allow him to move in for a punish where he would be unable to before. Many Kirby players express a desire for aerial mobility, but I feel this is against the character's nature. Kirby is more of a ground-based character that sneaks in hits while he dances around his opponent; Jigglypuff is the air-based equivalent of the puffballs. If Kirby had faster ground-based mobility he's be better able to move in on longer-reaching opponents, catch up with projectile spammers, and put up a better fight against speedy characters.

As far as changes to actual attacks, I'd consider the following:

Standard Special Attack (Inhale)
This is Kirby's trademark move, it's what sets him apart from the entire cast and yet it's pathetically weak and impractical to use in most situations. This attack should, if anything, be prominent in Kirby's repetoire. My suggestion is to reduce it's start-up so that it's at least on par with the average Grab; this gives the Kirby player a reason to at least use this as opposed to always defaulting to Grab. Ending recover-lag is fine; it's a little worse than whiffing a Grab but since this move has other benefits I'm fine with that.

Also, give Inhale a special cancel into "Copy" so that Kirby can *immediately* Copy an opponent the moment they're in his mouth. This is of great importance for situations that involve more than just one opponent (specifically Doubles where Kirby can get hit during the large window of opportunity between Inhaling and actually getting his Hat). Invincibility/Armor is fine too, the point is to actually give the player a reason to use Copy instead of avoid it like the plague.

Star-Shot (spitting the opponent out) should be a KO move at high percent. As with a Throw, give Kirby the option to go for a KO when he has a highly-damage opponent in his mouth. Again, this is the paragon of Kirby's attacks which was used to defeat his opponents in his games, give players motivation to use it! I don't know what damage would be a good "KO Attack" for Star-Shot, but a decent reference would be: Throw (backward) can KO approximately 150% so Star-Shot should be fine around there, if not less when catching the opponent off-stage and shooting them toward the boundary.

Smash Attack, Up
The range on this is good, but the weak hit above Kirby makes it impractical to use on airborne opponents. Make all the hitboxes equally strong, with the exception of when the kick drops behind Kirby.

Aerial Attacks
Kirby's air-based attacks are, in general, sluggish. His Standard Aerial Attack should be faster, his Up-Aerial could end more quickly, and his Forward Aerial Attack should match the start-up of his Back Aerial Attack.

Standard Special hits approximately on frame 10. If this were reduced to at least 6 frames, perhaps even as low as 4, Kirby could utilize this move to give him an effective Out-of-Shield option to punish people pressuring his defenses close-up. It's fine as a move to knock opponents away, but it would fit Kirby better if it had increased combo potential against a character who is at low damage.

Up Air is a great move because of it's upward trajectory and how it recover quickly when dropping back to the ground ('Auto-Canceld'). The problem with it is when successfully landing this attack on an opponent in the air the combo potential goes askew if Kirby also remains in the air. The Up-Air lasts for so long in the air that often times the opponent will escape any and all follow-ups and can often times get a quick hit on Kirby as well. Decreasing the animation timing at the end - but keeping the moderate start time - would allow Kirby to quickly combo into another attack (such as the improved N-air outlined earlier).

Forward Aerial has been improved almost perfectly from Brawl into SSB4. It is questionable why it had in Brawl (and still has in SSB4?) a 10-frame start-up time while his Back Aerial has only a 6-frame (?) start-up to hit. The two moves should be more or less equivalent in speed which would give Kirby a better forward moving approach option to work with.

I'm accepting of the landing-lag increase to B-air, but only because I understand it to be a balance issue. Slighting increasing it's power helped give Kirby a viable KO option again reminiscent of Melee or the original Smash Bros for the N64. I've seen with other characters that stronger attacks often carry harsher vulnerability, so I'm fine with this adjustment.

Special Attacks
Kirby's Special Attacks are, in general, poor in options as well in usage. They're all slow to start and leave Kirby vulnerable afterward. The reward for hitting with them is generally low. Their utility in any other instance is also unlikely. If anything, this is where Kirby could really use help. I've already gone over his Swallow, so I will elaborate on the other Special Attacks.

Final Cutter is a move to get back to the stage (a 'recovery move') first and foremost and using it as an attack is a distant second place usage. The slow start-up makes it impractical to use Out-of-Shield unlike similar moves (Marth's Dolphin Slash and Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop). It has nice range, which gives it the option to use for spacing, but it's risky as well as unreliable. The damage isn't generally worth using this move anyway. Simply decrease the start-up time to something more manageable.

I think Final Cutter currently hits somewhere past 20 frames, but an 8-frame start-up would be much more practical, especially considering Kirby does not get any form of protection when using this attack (i.e. no invincibility frames). One problem that could arise from this is the difficulty in using it as a 'recovery move' to get back on-stage because Kirby can, during the start-up animation - move forward slightly while preparing his strike. A solution to this should be easy to find (if it is necessary to find a solution at all); increase the horizontal movement or maybe make Kirby linger at the apex of his jump for a few more frames (though this could possibly interrupt the Final Cutter's 3-hit combo).

Stone is suppose to be a slow, defensive, powerful attack. The problem is that these very qualities are a very poor combination, competitively speaking. A slow attack is easy to defend against. Once defended, the Stone is easily punished. The defense offered by Stone is a poor compensation.

To remedy the Stone one or more of these detrimental qualities must be changed or the Stone itself must be bolstered to off-set the draw-backs. Making the Stone start-up quickly would work, but sort of takes away from the 'slow' idea. A better solution would be to give Kirby Super Armor on the start-up thereby keeping the move slow to start while keeping it's 'defensive' nature. This allows Stone to be used as a 'counter attack' style move increasing it's risk to reward ratio.

I'm sorry to say this, but Hammer is bad. It's worse than it was in Brawl, and it wasn't a very stellar move in that version. Right now it's only really used to punish exceptionally vulnerable opponents. That's fine and all, sort of like Kirby's version of Eruption or Falcon Punch, but considering all of Kirby's Special Attack seem to follow the 'slow, strong, and laggy' formula, he really doesn't need another one.

One thing that the Brawl Hammer did to set it apart from Kirby's other attacks was how it could be used to gain horizontal momentum (similar to Jigglypuff's Pound). This was removed in SSB4, and without that there's nothing noteworthy about Hammer. Perhaps it could be adjusted to be a Shield Breaker similar to what Marth/Donkey Kong have. At the very least, giving him back his horizontal Hammer momentum would open up a good use for this move again.

I'm going to tag some other Kirby mains so they could give any feedback they have:

Thanks for notifying me of this thead. ^_^

 

[Shaya]

uhh tidbit on Falco.
Falco's side b shouldn't have a hitbox on the entire animation, considering by the time he reaches his destination he has practically no end lag; think super super roll with a hitbox.
He keeps traveling after the hitbox ends, and if you don't punish him during that time he's likely going to get away with it.

Although I think it's a little unintuitive how you don't really have any indication of how big that hitbox is, or where the state of attack or not-attacking transitions. A visual queue or sound affect would help both falco players and those playing against him.

 

[Waluigi is too big]

are we allowed to suggest changes outside of gameplay changes?

If so may I suggest fixing the method of unlocking custom moves? I strongly believe that obtaining multiple of the same custom move should be removed if possible. This would remove the hassle of unlocking every custom, which is a big reason custom moves could not be tournament legal. This will also help the competitive scene decide if customs should be banned or not.

 

[LancerStaff]

+-

• Up B should have a larger ledgesnap window (not the entire duration of the move) so I don't fly past the edge into a charged USmash unless I fall to the bottom of the stage as Bair/Dair bait so I can ledgesnap.

Can't believe I forgot to mention this, but there's also a work around. Aim really low, and you'll slide up the side of the stage and grab the ledge. Just randomly Uspecial into the underside of stages until you get a feel of how it works.

•Allow competitive stages with platforms to be randomly chosen instead of all omega forms ex. Battlefield, town and city, smashville, Halberd etc

This wouldn't work. Either you get random stages chosen, or you implement a counterpick system in a mode designed for quick and easy matches. And then there's the fact that people don't agree on a stagelist anyway. The quickest and easiest solution is FD only, and the game is being balanced around it.

 

[RanserSSF4]

here are my suggestions for characters:

Zelda:

- I was testing her UThrow and I find that it could combo into the ender of her UP-B move at high %, but it doesn't because you don't recover fast enough. By either increasing the hitstun or decreasing the recovery of her UThrow, she will now have a high risk/high reward combo/option at high %. The risky part being that if your opponent DI's and you guess wrong, you are left wide open for a long time and easily get punished or killed. However, if you guess where they DI properly, you get a kill.

- Make her Fair and Bair auto-cancel. They can be great pokes with that chance to sweetspot opponents if they auto-cancel, but since they don't, they aren't good for spacing and only useful to predict air dodges or edgeguarding. By allowing them to auto-cancel, she can use them for spacing and still get the chance to do something else.

- Make her Fthrow or Bthrow...heck, try and make both of them Kill moves. Since Zelda has lackluster throws that barely kill (Correct me if I'm wrong), she needs at least one kill throw to help her. This will help her for not only killing, but useful for throw mix-ups, as you can mix-up between Uthrow, Fthrow, or any other throw.

JigglyPuff:

- Give her some rest combos. One of her biggest buffs is that her Rest kills earlier this time around, but not as early as Melee. the problem however, is that she has little to no setups or rest combos. It's a high risk/high reward OOS option, but that's it. One of the ways to do that, is to buff her Uthrow and Uair. For Uthrow, decrease the recovery frames so she can recover fast enough to combo into Rest. Do the same thing to Uair and she will have a guaruanteed rest combo that can only be avoided by DI.

Donkey Kong:

- Design his UP-B (Regular UP-B) where when he touches the ground, if he's a few inches above the ground, no longer does the landing lag animation (Where he lifts his arms up). I know this is already done in one of his custom UP-B's, but since some tournaments aren't going to allow custom moves, this is mandatory as it gives Donkey Kong enough time to get away or continue pressure.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Palutena, Diddy, Captain Falcon, and so on, yes. But there are others who struggle to combo from a grab.

With the exception of Fair (which isn't a KO move, unlike Diddy's Uair), all other of Palutena's aerial followups from Dthrow are escapeable even at low percents.

Nothing like Diddy's. But carry on.

 

[Phenomiracle]

One more suggestion for Zelda, assuming it hasn't already been added.

Remove the freefall aftereffect from Din's Fire. There is absolutely no reason for Zelda to have it while other characters possess projectiles that KO much easier than Din's Fire that they don't suffer a freefall from (Samus). Din's Fire freefalling is also responsible for many accidental deaths in which a quick Farore's Wind (Up-Special) to the side is misread as a Din's Fire. It's stupid and thoroughly unnecessary.

A further suggestion, if I may: Remove the KO sweetspot from her Din's Fire (which is largely useless even against opponents who are attempting recovery) and attach reasonably sized hitboxes to the Din's Fire trail prior to its explosion (hope I'm explaining this right). These hitboxes can function exactly how Bowser's and Charizard fire breath do: They can either cause opponents to flinch or not depending on distance (optimally for balance, there should be a set distance in which an opponent flinches upon hit, and after said distance, opponent doesn't flinch at all). Make the explosion occur faster upon release, and increase the range for Din's Fire. Brawl's range was perfect. The move was still useless because it was ridiculously easy to evade.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Again, this is not a wishlist for buffs. Either convincingly explain what's wrong with the risk/reward ratio of these moves or accept the fact that nothing so far indicates that DK is so fundamentally flawed a character that certain buffs are needed to make him usable.

Gonna say some things about .

Big O said some things I like, but since we need such thing as balance, I will put some possible buffs on .

*Up B needs to be AC or lagless when perfectly landed as it makes already exposed body and poor defensive options worse without it. The move needs to deal heavy damage like it used to (36% if all hit in Melee and Brawl). As a tradeoff, has an easier time to SDI out of it and the last hit doesn't KO as much (maybe an increase on the beginning of the move though).

*The entirety of his smash attacks should be buffed in power. As a heavyweight and a heavy hitter in general, his smash attacks feel a lot weaker without rage on. I have to wait till ~115% to kill Mario when I'm at 0% with uncharged Dsmash. For move that has so much endlag, it should able to kill earlier. Ness's Dsmash horizontally kills at 110%.....his bat... don't get me started.

*Tilts, the most used moves in arsenal. They reign on the fact range hurts the opponent. Why are the best damaging and killing (utilt specifically) all lined up with the closest hitbox? Counter intuitive at best.

*Dtilt should have an increased trip rate, but lower BK, and higher KBG. The decreased damage was enough to warrant this. This move has been a lackluster poking tool since 64 and the fact it still ain't great in terms of range...

*Utilt still can't hit from the front, why? Pretty much all of forward facing attacks have some crippling flaw to them (jabs don't always connect, grab is garbage, ftilt is easy to punish, Side B is side b, upB is best as a punish, downB is for ground people, dtilt is the only good one really).

*Nair. Unsafe in general. Comes out frame 10 (not an OoS) and hitboxes that are far too small for his size. DK should extend his arms more, thus increasing the range while simultaneously increasing the hurtboxes.

I don't believe you read the entirety of my post. It was not a wishlist of buffs as I added the cons and the reasons why. But if you want further explanation, here goes:

*Why Nair should be fixed is because DK has historically had a terrible way of landing (having to rely on dropped combos or jumping to a platform for safety). DK also lacks a forward approach in the air and for a character as fast DK is in the air without a forward approaching aerial is quite bewildering. This is further exacerbated by the change in ledge mechanics where DK is forced to jump because his other ledge options aren't really usable. Nair is the only move to make the opponent back off from the ledge on DK, but it's too slow and small to be usable in practical and repeated use. Then there's also the fact that it's higly unsafe even on hit.

*UpB doesn't immediately grab the edge like in Brawl, so DK slightly rises in place around the ledge. The DK player is then forced to land on stage hopefully getting the less laggy landing, but is still punished for having a landing that is almost as laggy as the other landing. Overall, UpB got nerfed in damage and utility. It went from being an interesting mix up to a move that is reserved for the sole purpose of recovery. With the reduced damage in DK's Dtilt (setup) and the inconsistency of his jab, racking damage becomes even more of a chore than needed, especially from a character that's combo food.

*The lowered damage in his setups, and lessened setups in general (UpB was one actually) made the usage of his smash attacks more of a risk and the fact they are outclassed by faster, less committed, and in some cases, outranged/stronger moves. This doesn't factor the fact that all, but the Fsmash has severely weakened power and means the overall frequency of usage has become quite alarming. Will, when on the Wii U has pretty much been exclusively using DK's Uair as his main option of killing. DK, a heavy, should have more abundant options that don't take a serious commitment. Look at Bowser's Bair and utilt and Koopa Grab. In general, DK takes more commitment to get a kill. In Brawl, it just wasn't as tedious. This sounds like a problem for Mario, not DK.

*Tilts:
+Ftilt: Good range, horrible up close. Considering that it outranges swords, no problem.
+Utilt: For some reason this move doesn't hit in front and the strongest hitboxes are are aligned with close range. The fact this move is very unsafe on block, up close isn't really an option unless a great read is made. In front of him, hitboxes are too scarce. For a character that suffers up close and in front of him (even with aerials) at least make this adjustment. He legitimately has just 3 moves in front of him Dtilt, Ftilt, Jab.
+Dtilt: Less range than Ftilt, and an average/poor poke. The lessened damage (and in turn shield damage) means the shield stabbing (pokes are supposed to be fast low, low range and decent shield damage) means the overall effectiveness is by and large lessened. If the trip rate of this move is increased (the only redeeming factor of this subpar poke), the utility of this move goes up. Now if BK is lowered on this move, followups at low percent (when the move is most useful), will be able to combo into other options other than the bad grab or down b. The increase in KBG is for the gimping factor. I don't see an intense increase in KBG to make this move more useful for off the edge opponents, but a decent one. We don't need a Luigi Brawl utilt situation (so low BK, but high KBG leading to great low percent combos, but also a good kill option in later ones).

I believe this should suffice as explanation.

 

[edde]

olimar needs a better grab.. i dont even use him, but its impossible to grab as him... from being best grabber inbrawl to worst by far in here

villager's neutral b (pocket) has a lot of invincibility frames... maybe even more than an air dodge... reduce/remove them

 

[Emblem Lord]

I guess I will try my hand at this for Marth. My goal with these buffs is not for him to be top tier or even high tier. I want him to be properly rewarded for playing his game correctly. He is a patient character with a strong ground game, but his footsies generally give him positional advantage only. He is strong at leading into traps, but I feel his ground game lacks cohesiveness in some areas. My buffs are as follows.

D-tilt: Increase hitstun by several frames so Marth can link Dancing Blade after it. Just enough so the DB combo is a tight 2 frame link. I don't want it to be easy mode, but I don't want it to be extremely difficult either. Marth's d-tilt while great at trapping is outranged by several other characters, and does 10 damage when tipped. Giving him a DB follow-up after this hits will not break him and will make him a more rewarding character on the ground. Compensation nerfs are to increase start-up by 1 frame and reduce damage by 1%.

Dancing Blade: Increase hitstun and decrease start-up on on the third down hit version of Dancing Blade, which is the downward thrust. Also change the push back so it pushes the opponent down and backwards with greater force and effectiveness. Increase hitstun on all hits of the final down version of Dancing Blade, which is the rapid stab. Damage reduction by 1% on both the third and final down hit versions. Dancing Blade is Marth's main combo tool. It's ridiculous that the hits don't combo properly or even flow into themselves correctly. These buffs aim to fix that. To compensate for these buffs, I gave him a slight damage reduction.

Uair: Reduce recovery frames from 19 to 16. Equal to Nair. In Brawl Marth had mindless Uair airdodge/land traps that many characters had no answer too. Clearly Nintendo saw this and Uair got nerfed. That's fine. But why is it that CF and ZSS have the same mindless traps in Smash 4? I understand, Marth has a sword and they do not. Still, Marth's trap game is what defines the character at a high level. I don't want his Uair to be equal to ZSS or CF which would mean only 9 or 10 frames of recovery. That's madness. He has a sword and that alone means his recovery needs to reflect the fact that he does not strike with any vulnerable part of his body. The 3 frame reduction in recovery still keeps Marth in check, but makes him a bit more threatening in a situation that he has to earn in the first place.

My changes don't break Marth. I want intelligent high level Marth play to be rewarded. I don't want Fair returned to what it was in Brawl. That's not good for game balance. Invalidating over half the cast will not make Smash 4 a better experience. I want Marth to flow a bit better on the ground and have a bit more leeway with his trap game so he feels more fun and interesting.

Properly rewarding good gameplay or increasing functionality should be the goal when we suggest changes for our characters guys. Let's all keep that in mind.

 

[Shaya]

Dancing Blade being consistent again (like in Brawl) would be a huge boon. I think a lot of it has to do with active frames being taken off the sweeps of the sword for whatever reason. With DB being consistent at basically every percent on basically every character, in a game with rage scaling better than staling moves? Yeah, kinda dangerous, would be a spike in consistency and power that could easily make him rise several spots in and of itself.

Uair is 16 frames of landing lag, whilst nair is 15, no?

If Dtilt was restored to how it was in Brawl (keep the extra 2 frames of lag, doesn't matter, I mean hitboxes specs/animation) that would be grand... iono what they wanted with the move in this game... I guess it sends pretty far for poking people towards ledges... but it does feel weirdly inadequate. Dtilt -> DB working again is one of those things I've thought about so so many times, can't help but feel an easy 20-25% was something they wanted to avoid, but *diddy kong* [at kill percent]

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Looks like there's a lot to check out for me regarding Kirby and Mii Swordfighter. Probably gonna play them for a bit to get an impression and see where people are coming from with their suggestions. I know too little about these characters yet.