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After using him more, I changed my mind on nair (not as much of a buff as proposed), the ninja star projectile, or any buffs to Hero's Spin upB. All are quite good. Ike's uair, too.Looks like there's a lot to check out for me regarding Kirby and Mii Swordfighter. Probably gonna play them for a bit to get an impression and see where people are coming from with their suggestions. I know too little about these characters yet.
No offense to you or gheb but shouldn't we be deciding as a community what should be in and what shouldn't? I'm having difficulty understanding how this works. I liked the marth suggestions and others as well but what gives you the authority to decide what's viable to be patched? I could be missing something but this isn't feeling very community oriented.
I didn't mean to imply that they were at Diddy's level, simply that they exist. Fortunately, a friend of mine mains Palutena, so I have plenty of practice escaping her combo.
I disagree with some of these.Gonna say some things about
Big O said some things I like, but since we need such thing as balance, I will put some possible buffs on
*Up B needs to be AC or lagless when perfectly landed as it makes
*The entirety of his smash attacks should be buffed in power. As a heavyweight and a heavy hitter in general, his smash attacks feel a lot weaker without rage on. I have to wait till ~115% to kill Mario when I'm at 0% with uncharged Dsmash. For move that has so much endlag, it should able to kill earlier. Ness's Dsmash horizontally kills at 110%.....his bat... don't get me started.
*Tilts, the most used moves in
*Dtilt should have an increased trip rate, but lower BK, and higher KBG. The decreased damage was enough to warrant this. This move has been a lackluster poking tool since 64 and the fact it still ain't great in terms of range...
*Utilt still can't hit from the front, why? Pretty much all of
*Nair. Unsafe in general. Comes out frame 10 (not an OoS) and hitboxes that are far too small for his size. DK should extend his arms more, thus increasing the range while simultaneously increasing the hurtboxes.
I don't believe you read the entirety of my post. It was not a wishlist of buffs as I added the cons and the reasons why. But if you want further explanation, here goes:
*Why Nair should be fixed is because DK has historically had a terrible way of landing (having to rely on dropped combos or jumping to a platform for safety). DK also lacks a forward approach in the air and for a character as fast DK is in the air without a forward approaching aerial is quite bewildering. This is further exacerbated by the change in ledge mechanics where DK is forced to jump because his other ledge options aren't really usable. Nair is the only move to make the opponent back off from the ledge on DK, but it's too slow and small to be usable in practical and repeated use. Then there's also the fact that it's higly unsafe even on hit.
*UpB doesn't immediately grab the edge like in Brawl, so DK slightly rises in place around the ledge. The DK player is then forced to land on stage hopefully getting the less laggy landing, but is still punished for having a landing that is almost as laggy as the other landing. Overall, UpB got nerfed in damage and utility. It went from being an interesting mix up to a move that is reserved for the sole purpose of recovery. With the reduced damage in DK's Dtilt (setup) and the inconsistency of his jab, racking damage becomes even more of a chore than needed, especially from a character that's combo food.
*The lowered damage in his setups, and lessened setups in general (UpB was one actually) made the usage of his smash attacks more of a risk and the fact they are outclassed by faster, less committed, and in some cases, outranged/stronger moves. This doesn't factor the fact that all, but the Fsmash has severely weakened power and means the overall frequency of usage has become quite alarming. Will, when on the Wii U has pretty much been exclusively using DK's Uair as his main option of killing. DK, a heavy, should have more abundant options that don't take a serious commitment. Look at Bowser's Bair and utilt and Koopa Grab. In general, DK takes more commitment to get a kill. In Brawl, it just wasn't as tedious. This sounds like a problem for Mario, not DK.
*Tilts:
+Ftilt: Good range, horrible up close. Considering that it outranges swords, no problem.
+Utilt: For some reason this move doesn't hit in front and the strongest hitboxes are are aligned with close range. The fact this move is very unsafe on block, up close isn't really an option unless a great read is made. In front of him, hitboxes are too scarce. For a character that suffers up close and in front of him (even with aerials) at least make this adjustment. He legitimately has just 3 moves in front of him Dtilt, Ftilt, Jab.
+Dtilt: Less range than Ftilt, and an average/poor poke. The lessened damage (and in turn shield damage) means the shield stabbing (pokes are supposed to be fast low, low range and decent shield damage) means the overall effectiveness is by and large lessened. If the trip rate of this move is increased (the only redeeming factor of this subpar poke), the utility of this move goes up. Now if BK is lowered on this move, followups at low percent (when the move is most useful), will be able to combo into other options other than the bad grab or down b. The increase in KBG is for the gimping factor. I don't see an intense increase in KBG to make this move more useful for off the edge opponents, but a decent one. We don't need a Luigi Brawl utilt situation (so low BK, but high KBG leading to great low percent combos, but also a good kill option in later ones).
I believe this should suffice as explanation.
I agree too but if I were to give DK any buff I think I would make his nair hitbox a tad bigger. It's the only thing that stands out to me really.
Look at Brawl DK. His upB was SDI able yet it still punished sidestepping and rolling fools heavy. Nair is nowhere near the tool it needs to be considering the moves you listed aren't omni directional. Anyway, aerial down b is bad beyond the start up and end lag issue (though it could help it possibly). Brawl DK (will often be used as comparison) had a fair risk/reward ratio and wasn't so tedious for killing with him, yet now it's more of a risk than anything to use DK in general. It's just not rewarding to play a character that's supposed to be killing around low 100s, with and without range, kill at 130+. The already small shield and poor sidestep means that DK will on the offensive or at least turtling for an existence. Dealing with pressure has been a problem for DK since day 1 and since his best OoS options have horrible shield stun, it's not outside the realm of imagination that this character should be balanced by having powerful moves (especially since having no projectile is a thing).
: Needs less lag on collecting levels one and two of Oil Panic. I understand why they gave it the lag it has, since the point of the move is to be a slow but powerful counterattack. However, it's really, really dumb that a character can use a laggy projectile from across the stage and punish Game & Watch for using the move. Assuming the frame data for the move is unchanged from Brawl (if it is changed, it's not by much), it takes 72 frames for him to act after collecting a projectile. That's just atrocious. After collecting the third level he has 36 frames, but a lot of that is covered by invincibility frames which makes it less of an issue. It's just too risky for him to use the move at higher percentages, especially since his weight is so low. I propose lowering the lag on collecting the first two levels to 48 frames. With that, the first half is covered by invincibility but still gives him time to be punished. It'll mainly just make the move safer to use at a distance; that's still perfectly punishable at close range.: Villager's mostly a solid character aside from a few of his attacks being somewhat unsafe at lower percentages. His UTilt has a bigger problem with this than most, though. It hits twice, but the first hit has so little hitstun that if it connects at the beginning of the animation (it seems to be out a decent time) then opponents can often jump out, airdodge, or even input an attack before the second hit comes out (I've had a Lucina use Counter in between the two hits against me lol). All the move really needs is a slight increase in hitstun, if possible, to make this either impossible or less likely.: FIX HIS JAB. Please, for everything that is good about the character, fix his jab. The move is just terrible. There is a massive delay in between the first two hits and the rapid jab combo in which most anyone with a brain can escape. The rapid jab combo itself is really inconsistent at linking to the end; small characters usually can escape with no trouble (larger characters can too but it's harder and depends on where they are when the move starts). If they escape they can often punish Bowser Jr. for using it since the move has appreciable endlag. The move needs two fixes: to lessen the time between the initial hits and to make the rapid jab better at linking to the end. Obviously some characters will be able to escape anyway, and that's fine (most rapid jab combos are escapable some of the time in this game). But having a Samus-level initial jab isn't worth it. Even Samus's jab1 has enough knockback to make it decent at higher percents; his has no redeeming qualities (except being a kill move close to the edge at high percents but good luck actually getting that killing blow in).
I'm only bouncing off thoughts on other people's ideas. If at a base we generally agree that moves designed to link into each other (i.e. multi hit moves) should actually link into each other (max range shuffle inputs out aside) then I would say it's safe that DB is listed but any other buffs are dangerous because of how GOOD that move can be.
He's not confirmed terrible. No one has done the actual MU's and I mean *really* done the MU's not "well my character has this and he's awesome and SF seems to be crap so we win 70:30". No ones gone through percieved top tiers vs SF and seen if he has counter-meta significance.
Good points across the board. I spent little time analyzing Up1. The move lacks Ike's Super Armor and Kirby's Projectile so I never use it. It fast though. I will get it that. If you can teach me to land the meteor smash I will be glad to use it again haha. Otherwise, I will stick with Up2.
into this discussion. I feel he could use some straight up love.
I guess I just figured everything that is suggested would be recorded and then we would all vote on it but it seems that things are being cherry picked by one or two people from the suggestions that are being brought forth. I've never been a part of a thread like this so I'm not quite sure how it works. I'm just trying to figure out the process behind the project I supposeI'm only bouncing off thoughts on other people's ideas. If at a base we generally agree that moves designed to link into each other (i.e. multi hit moves) should actually link into each other (max range shuffle inputs out aside) then I would say it's safe that DB is listed but any other buffs are dangerous because of how GOOD that move can be.
I have a zillion ideas about how to make Marth a boss again that stray from EL and they're kinda QoL stuff (auto cancels being adjusted). I've yet to actually make a post that I would consider a contribution to the 'patch'
All of EL's suggestions were completely reasonable, I'm just discussing them with him~
I think you're looking at Dark Pit the wrong way. He's not supposed to be a separate character, he's the other half of Pit.
Ness? Paula taught him.
General consensus is that she's more for FFAs then 1v1s. She's still good for teams, isn't she?
She also has the best slow walk animation in the game.
needs nerf on up airs or up b, I can't tell you how well this works on other characters, but when a z suit grabs me and i'm above 10% down throw into up airs into up b will kill me ending at around 50 or 40 percent, it's nuts. yet. I feel like even though he received a few buffs such as faster f-tilt and a new dash attack, he still needs a LOT of help. Prepare for a wall of text (and a bit of personal opinions here and there).
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Does GW still get the invincibility upon absorbing a projectile? That was used greatly by teams and would be similar to pocket.Surprised not many people have brought up
Firstly and fore mostly, I want to talk about his B-air. It was bad enough that the total damage of this move (if all hits connect) was decreased from 15% in brawl to 9% currently, but it's landing lag has been doubled. Yes, doubled, from 12 frames in brawl to 24 frames now. I'm not one to complain about things like this, but they basically butchered this move to make it unusable in most situations. In a broad sense, this attack is no-where near as good as it used to be. Some changes I would like to see happen to this move would be to bump the damage up by 4% (giving each of the 4 hits 1% more damage, which would be fair since it has one less hit than before) and reduce its landing lag to at least 16 frames (it is way too easy to punish this move with 24 frames of landing lag).
Next, I want to bring up his smash attacks and their power. His smash attacks as a whole have been butchered, which is not good at all, considering G&W is a 'glass cannon' type of character that relies on strong attacks to make up for his light-weight (he's literally the 2nd lightest character in the game, next to Jigglypuff).
I'll begin with his F-smash. Sure, if it's charged fully it can pack a punch, but if it's uncharged, you can't kill normal characters until about +120%. Also, if you hit your opponent with the sour-spot (which makes up the whole 'stick' of the torch), it deals noticeably less knockback and damage, and most characters can survive until 130-150%. I'd like to add that the lingering hitbox (the flame, post-attack) was also removed, greatly hindering the usage of the move as both an edge-guarding tool and punishing dodges. I'll try not to be too biased when stating my personal changes (I am a G&W main after all, lol), but the lingering hitbox should return ASAP. It wasn't 'overpowered' at all, and from what I've seen it was used quite effectively when punishing approaches and keeping opponents at bay. If it were to be re-added into the game, being able to counter approaches would be much easier. I would also increase the knockback of both the sour and sweet spots, thus giving it more potential killing power (not trying to force the 'glass cannon' aspect, but his killing power being taken away is a MAJOR complaint amongst most G&W players).
Moving on to D-smash. Personally, I have little to no complaints about this move; it has decent killing power and great range (even better range than it had in brawl) as a whole. However, my one pet peeve about this move is how quickly the move's hitbox ends. In simple words, the hitbox comes and goes really fast, leaving G&W open to a plethora of counter attacks after using it. To fix this, perhaps an 'earthquake' effect could happen after the move is activated (ie: the ground surrounding the hammer heads has a hitbox which dies out shortly after the attack initiates). This would encourage opponents to keep a distance and carefully approach instead of just walking away from the attack like it's nothing. Plus, the attack already has quite a bit of ending lag, so it would be helpful if you were in close quarters with your opponent.
U-smash is okay as it is, it's a little weaker than D-smash but still gets the job done.
Finally, I'll end with a few minor complaints, but they're still worth mentioning. First of all, oil panic has way too much ending lag after collecting a projectile (a 72 whooping frames). As Kofu mentioned, the lag being reduced to something like 48 would be fair for both sides, opposing and defending. Secondly, G&W's jab needs to come out faster after it first hits. It is absolutely irrational that most characters can counter his jab with a N-air at low percents, considering that characters without a rapid jab don't suffer from the same issue (side samus, at least from what I've read). Lastly, U-tilt needs a greater range horizontally. It's good that it has a second hit, but the second hit doesn't even connect after around 20%. To top that off, it can't hit opponents unless they are almost overlapping G&W's hurtbox or if they're overhead, crippling its use greatly.
Again, I apologize for the wall of text, or if a few of my ideas don't make sense, but G&W is not the character he used to be. He's been nerfed overall, and most of the attributes like killing power and damage-racking that made him great before were taken away. Any critique or responses to my ideas are much appreciated.
I believe G&W still has invincibility after absorbing a projectile, but it's nothing special since the invincibility only lasts mid-way through the ending-lag. In other words, he's still open as if the invincibility isn't even there.
No way, that's a horrid idea. It's incredibly easy to DI out of that move and it's a very high risk move for ZSS (leaves you helpless). ZSS I feel is actually one of the more balanced out characters. Every character should be as good as she is, don't bring her down.
& 's Inhale at their relatively close range should be able to suck in a grounded opponent sitting in shield, aka Inhale should be unblockable.
can SH fair laglessly now.- nerf some of the damage on his moves, uair needs to deal less knockback. D throw should be left alone.- Make the lighter brawlers way lighter. There is little reason not to use the lights over the heavies atm. This goes for miis in general.- Give light armor to his side B- Up B should break shields more reliably.- Increase the height that his down B can give him.- Buff down B, it's nigh-useless. Give it less ending lag.
