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Community Patch Project

Chuva

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Assuming this project is oriented towards singles:

My suggestion: Bowser's Dthrow damage should be increased by 2%. As it stands in almost all practical scenarios you're better of using Fthrow as it does the same damage (12%), almost the same KB angle and has significantly higher KB. You'd think Dthrow could at least be useful as a good setup for combos or strings, but it's not because while it doesn't knock as far as Fthrow, it knocks too far for any kind of reasonable follow-up, even at 0%.

By increasing Dthrow damage, you now give the throw a purpose (damage dealing) and warrants using it over Fthrow in certain circumstances. I propose a damage change to keep it simple, but another possible suggestion would be to reduce the 9 frames of ending lag after the second hitbox of Dthrow, making it easier for Bowser to follow-up after it.
 

Kofu

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Nope, most of us are too devoted to Yoshi to betray him. Especially since he's actually good now, except Polt. He'll still go sheik in the Yoshi ditto lol

His only bad MUs honestly is sheik and anybody else who can just **** him in the face all day. So brawler sheik sonic and mario to an extent. Diddy is ok at the very least, but we of course still lose to him for obvious reasons.
Actually I remembered one thing that could probably be changed on Yoshi. Weaken his DAir, seriously. It does like, what, 30% if all hits connect? That's extremely stupid. I'd be okay with 20% or so but not where it currently is.
 

Sinister Slush

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His dair always did 30+%
Just in other games it didn't eat shields as much or people could simply DI out. Not so much the case in this game.
 

Kofu

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His dair always did 30+%
Just in other games it didn't eat shields as much or people could simply DI out. Not so much the case in this game.
That's the main problem, it's very difficult to escape now. If you're a smaller character you can probably escape the last few kicks but you're still taking 20% at best. Only a handful of smash attacks deal in excess of 30% but even then they have to be charged. His flutter kick, on the other hand, has a lot less commitment and requires no charge time. While it was frustrating at first I feel that the weakening of SDI was generally a good thing but this is one of the exceptions.

The end lag is kind of bad but that's not much consolation if you get caught by the move.
 

B!squick

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Assuming this project is oriented towards singles:

My suggestion: Bowser's Dthrow damage should be increased by 2%. As it stands in almost all practical scenarios you're better of using Fthrow as it does the same damage (12%), almost the same KB angle and has significantly higher KB. You'd think Dthrow could at least be useful as a good setup for combos or strings, but it's not because while it doesn't knock as far as Fthrow, it knocks too far for any kind of reasonable follow-up, even at 0%.

By increasing Dthrow damage, you now give the throw a purpose (damage dealing) and warrants using it over Fthrow in certain circumstances. I propose a damage change to keep it simple, but another possible suggestion would be to reduce the 9 frames of ending lag after the second hitbox of Dthrow, making it easier for Bowser to follow-up after it.
I support this suggestion. Bowser's DThrow's only purpose is dealing an extra percent or two of damage if your FThrow is stale and you're facing the right direction.
 

ChronoPenguin

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Nope, most of us are too devoted to Yoshi to betray him. Especially since he's actually good now, except Polt. He'll still go sheik in the Yoshi ditto lol

His only bad MUs honestly is sheik and anybody else who can just **** him in the face all day. So brawler sheik sonic and mario to an extent. Diddy is ok at the very least, but we of course still lose to him for obvious reasons.
Lol I remember in Brawl being a Yoshi main. It was immense fun but alas the Monado has called me.

I continually see "Inhale should be unshieldable" getting thrown around" again it showed up last page.
 

Potaters

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Mr. Game & Watch: As Mr. Game & Watch, I feel his early game is similar to many others in that he relies on his down throw. What he can do from there is completely dependent on match-ups (only follow-up on Sheik and Greninja is jab until they're at like 50%...), with some taking massive damage from his up tilt and nair. He can easily get most characters to about 60% very fast, but from there he has huge problems. Ridley-sized problems. Well, almost.
His kills before 180% come from people running into your smash attacks (sweetspot down smash is insanely strong but hard to hit, up smash only really good for people coming down on you with an attack, side smash is a "safer" option compared to down smash but less kill power), or he can kill some characters with fair and down air gimps. The thing is, there are a lot of characters that have everything they need to avoid getting hit by any of G&W's kill moves, such as Sonic (3fast5me), Duck Hunt, Link/Toon Link, and Megaman (maybe. I'm not sure if G&W can bucket the lemons or not, or how strong a lemon oil panic would even be...).
And let's be real, while it would be nice to think the down throw into Judgement makes him amazing, there will be just as many matches where 90% of your hammers are 1's and will basically give free stocks to your opponent. He is effectively a giant gimmick with few reliable strengths.
Changes:
F-Air:
Less landing lag, slightly more hitstun. Like Jigglypuff or even Palutena, this is the move he will be throwing out very often to space out his opponents. Unlike Jigglypuff, G&W does not have the air speed to quickly fair in and fall back if shielded or it didn't hit, and yet he has enough landing lag that he can often be punished for trying to do what he's built to do. And unlike Palutena, it does not have enough hitstun to string into a grab or dash attack (again, landing lag) unless your opponent has a slow reaction to it. Like I said before, he can down throw combo a quick 60% but getting your opponent to typical kill % with G&W's random hits can take years because of the lack of reliable follow ups. I wouldn't mind seeing it kill earlier too (it's generally what he uses to kill at 180%) but I'd rather see it chain into some kind of follow up.
B-Air: Again, less landing lag would be very helpful, as it's even laggier than his fair. But, more importantly, his bair is currently a terrible option for gimping because it sends at a VERY vertical angle. I'd really like it if it sent at much more of a horizontal angle so it could actually kill instead of saving the person you're trying to gimp for a kill at 150%.
D-Tilt: This move comes out fast but has huge endlag. I know people are saying "wow, you can block projectiles with the windbox," but I don't really get what they're saying because oh... you have a less laggy option called shielding... and you've already got a the up air for wind. Personally, I would like to see it kill at around 130%, but at least make it less laggy.
Bucket: This thing has ridiculous endlag, so much that you can absorb something from halfway across the stage and still get punished for it. For the love of God, as if anyone that knows G&W would let it get filled, it needs to be faster. Also, as for Oil Panic, if G&W uses it but gets hit while it's still moving, the attack should not just disappear. It's like if Samus' projectiles just disappeared if she got hit while they were flying across the stage.
Judgement: This is something a lot of people will probably disagree with, but I would just love if all of the numbers besides 9 and 6 got buffed. They're useless. And while it seems like a fair trade off all because 9 is usually insta-kill, it's really not. You shouldn't challenge someone with Judgement because if it's a 1, you'll both get hit by whatever it thrown out and take 12% extra damage. I'm not sure if down throw to judgement is ever a true combo, I know it depends on characters, but so many characters can just avoid getting grabbed and G&W's approaches are awful. And if it is a true combo at 0%, it's not insta-kill on anyone but light characters or at the edge of the stage.
1: Should either not damage G&W (especially for TWELVE PERCENT) or should inflict some kind of stun so G&W can't get immediately punished for using it.
3: Should have much better shield pressure. Its shield poke is completely useless. If not shielded, bad reaction time can lead to a free side smash, though.
7: Should straight-up heal him for as much as a 1 does to him.
8: Change freeze to the stun like Pac-Man's Bell. Freeze is useless, and even hitting a frozen opponent with a 9 won't send them anywhere.

The changes I suggested are just adjustments to fit to my complaints about him. To be honest, I think he would be low tier right now and even with those changes he would have just as hard a time against a lot of characters, but it's a start.
 

TheMiSP

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Wow. Thanks for writing all that down.

I also would like his bair to be reverted to Brawl status for spacing. People already figured out to shield the first hits and spot dodge the last ones, so readding it shouldn't be bad.

If dair's landing lag is terrible, I feel we would need the ability to slow fall it back again to make up for the lag.

Dtilt could probably linger a little longer or even through the whole 40 frames to emphasize on the windbox. Or just make it more spammable.

Utilt could also use a little more horizontal range, as right now it has nearly zero of it.

Maybe make Uair easier to land the second hit? I mean, if you landed the first one, you should be able to land the second one as a result. But I guess a free 7% is good enough. Plus the windbox on that thing too.

I'd also love to have Project M's Judgement, with the old RNG and the amazing gimps that move provides.

Last but not least. Maybe give back his Brawl strength on smashes? If he's going to die early as a flatweight at around 80%, he ain't gonna experience the oh-so heavenly rage mechanic. Sure, let's keep bucket braking out. But with how he doesn't really survive and doesn't allow mistakes, let's have him kill early! Doesn't that sound familiar?

Unfortunately, about half of what I said fits the description of dunking wishes in a box. But with all the horrible options G&W already has, I feel that most of these changes would make him a solid character. Sure, with one of the changes previously mentioned, might as well ignore some others.

...And please let us grab that dang sandbag while waiting for an offline match. It's incredibly obnoxious. Perhaps a dummy doppelganger like online waiting?
 
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Kofu

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Mr. Game & Watch: As Mr. Game & Watch, I feel his early game is similar to many others in that he relies on his down throw. What he can do from there is completely dependent on match-ups (only follow-up on Sheik and Greninja is jab until they're at like 50%...), with some taking massive damage from his up tilt and nair. He can easily get most characters to about 60% very fast, but from there he has huge problems. Ridley-sized problems. Well, almost.
His kills before 180% come from people running into your smash attacks (sweetspot down smash is insanely strong but hard to hit, up smash only really good for people coming down on you with an attack, side smash is a "safer" option compared to down smash but less kill power), or he can kill some characters with fair and down air gimps. The thing is, there are a lot of characters that have everything they need to avoid getting hit by any of G&W's kill moves, such as Sonic (3fast5me), Duck Hunt, Link/Toon Link, and Megaman (maybe. I'm not sure if G&W can bucket the lemons or not, or how strong a lemon oil panic would even be...).
And let's be real, while it would be nice to think the down throw into Judgement makes him amazing, there will be just as many matches where 90% of your hammers are 1's and will basically give free stocks to your opponent. He is effectively a giant gimmick with few reliable strengths.
Changes:
F-Air:
Less landing lag, slightly more hitstun. Like Jigglypuff or even Palutena, this is the move he will be throwing out very often to space out his opponents. Unlike Jigglypuff, G&W does not have the air speed to quickly fair in and fall back if shielded or it didn't hit, and yet he has enough landing lag that he can often be punished for trying to do what he's built to do. And unlike Palutena, it does not have enough hitstun to string into a grab or dash attack (again, landing lag) unless your opponent has a slow reaction to it. Like I said before, he can down throw combo a quick 60% but getting your opponent to typical kill % with G&W's random hits can take years because of the lack of reliable follow ups. I wouldn't mind seeing it kill earlier too (it's generally what he uses to kill at 180%) but I'd rather see it chain into some kind of follow up.
B-Air: Again, less landing lag would be very helpful, as it's even laggier than his fair. But, more importantly, his bair is currently a terrible option for gimping because it sends at a VERY vertical angle. I'd really like it if it sent at much more of a horizontal angle so it could actually kill instead of saving the person you're trying to gimp for a kill at 150%.
D-Tilt: This move comes out fast but has huge endlag. I know people are saying "wow, you can block projectiles with the windbox," but I don't really get what they're saying because oh... you have a less laggy option called shielding... and you've already got a the up air for wind. Personally, I would like to see it kill at around 130%, but at least make it less laggy.
Bucket: This thing has ridiculous endlag, so much that you can absorb something from halfway across the stage and still get punished for it. For the love of God, as if anyone that knows G&W would let it get filled, it needs to be faster. Also, as for Oil Panic, if G&W uses it but gets hit while it's still moving, the attack should not just disappear. It's like if Samus' projectiles just disappeared if she got hit while they were flying across the stage.
Judgement: This is something a lot of people will probably disagree with, but I would just love if all of the numbers besides 9 and 6 got buffed. They're useless. And while it seems like a fair trade off all because 9 is usually insta-kill, it's really not. You shouldn't challenge someone with Judgement because if it's a 1, you'll both get hit by whatever it thrown out and take 12% extra damage. I'm not sure if down throw to judgement is ever a true combo, I know it depends on characters, but so many characters can just avoid getting grabbed and G&W's approaches are awful. And if it is a true combo at 0%, it's not insta-kill on anyone but light characters or at the edge of the stage.
1: Should either not damage G&W (especially for TWELVE PERCENT) or should inflict some kind of stun so G&W can't get immediately punished for using it.
3: Should have much better shield pressure. Its shield poke is completely useless. If not shielded, bad reaction time can lead to a free side smash, though.
7: Should straight-up heal him for as much as a 1 does to him.
8: Change freeze to the stun like Pac-Man's Bell. Freeze is useless, and even hitting a frozen opponent with a 9 won't send them anywhere.

The changes I suggested are just adjustments to fit to my complaints about him. To be honest, I think he would be low tier right now and even with those changes he would have just as hard a time against a lot of characters, but it's a start.
Lol giving FAir less landing lag.

Most of these are valid points but the object of the thread isn't to fix every little gripe you have with your character but rather to suggest patches that will either correct something overpowered or to fix something about a move that is inherently flawed. Believe me, I'd love some of these changes but from my perspective most of what you listed aren't design flaws, just problems you have with the way his moves work.

I agree with lessening Oil Panic's collection lag slightly (at least for the first two levels), since being punished for collecting a projectile from across the stage is stupid (Zelda can punish us. ZELDA). However, the move has absurd comeback potential in some matchups and could easily become overpowered if it was too safe. UTilt also needs some sort of change to make it more usable in general. In almost all cases, just using NAir is better (low-percent DThrow followups are the sole exception).
 
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Potaters

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Most of these are valid points but the object of the thread isn't to fix every little gripe you have with your character but rather to suggest patches that will either correct something overpowered or to fix something about a move that is inherently flawed.
Oh. OK. Thought we were just suggesting changes, but I didn't read everything. My bad.
G&W's "flaws" imo would be up tilt (useless outside of low % down throw combo), Judgement 1 (12% to himself and no stun, come on, he's the second lightest characters in the game), and maybe bair sending almost straight up. And by the way I have zero experience with anyone in Brawl but Ness and Lucas so my ideas are fresh changes rather than just wanting him to go back to his Brawl form.

Meta Knight could potentially recover with all 4 of his special moves, and I'm glad they nerfed his recovery, but he should be able to use drill/tornado/cape above the ledge without just falling right past it. Sending into helpless is one thing, but there's a giant cooldown on when he can actually grab the ledge after using those moves, when you really wouldn't use them to recover in the first place. Drill and cape can immediately snap to ledge (though I think you can bounce off the stage with drill and die), so I don't understand why you can't use them an inch, let alone 10 feet, above the ledge and be able to recover.

If you use Palutena's Warp right next to the ledge, she will go straight up, under the stage, or away from the stage, depending on what the stage is. Don't think it needs any more explanation.

And I think WFT has a lot of flaws, but... I'm not gonna get into that...
 
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F-Air: Less landing lag, slightly more hitstun. Like Jigglypuff or even Palutena, this is the move he will be throwing out very often to space out his opponents. Unlike Jigglypuff, G&W does not have the air speed to quickly fair in and fall back if shielded or it didn't hit, and yet he has enough landing lag that he can often be punished for trying to do what he's built to do. And unlike Palutena, it does not have enough hitstun to string into a grab or dash attack (again, landing lag) unless your opponent has a slow reaction to it. Like I said before, he can down throw combo a quick 60% but getting your opponent to typical kill % with G&W's random hits can take years because of the lack of reliable follow ups. I wouldn't mind seeing it kill earlier too (it's generally what he uses to kill at 180%) but I'd rather see it chain into some kind of follow up.
B-Air: Again, less landing lag would be very helpful, as it's even laggier than his fair. But, more importantly, his bair is currently a terrible option for gimping because it sends at a VERY vertical angle. I'd really like it if it sent at much more of a horizontal angle so it could actually kill instead of saving the person you're trying to gimp for a kill at 150%.

F-air and B-air feel extremely weak now. I'd almost say using them is like hitting your opponent with a floppy noodle.

Fair can't kill until extremely high percents now and although less landing lag is nice, it's no longer a viable option for knocking out opponents (something that G&W DESPERATELY needs). It also deals 5% less damage (which at first may seem small, but it adds up when you realize it does about 1/3 less damage than before). Meanwhile, B-air's damage was halved, it does one less hit, and has twice as much landing lag. It also can't 'eat' shields as well anymore.

IMO, b-air (and maybe d-air) needs its landing lag reduced. If you knew how to avoid it in Brawl, it wasn't a big problem, so it was pointless to hinder this move. Now it's only useful for gimping, but it's not much help since half of the cast has a god tier recovery anyway.

On a side note, N-air feels like it has a lot less range than it should. Could just be me, but connecting more than 3 hits with it seems like a chore.
 
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Kofu

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F-air and B-air feel extremely weak now. I'd almost say using them is like hitting your opponent with a floppy noodle.

Fair can't kill until extremely high percents now and although less landing lag is nice, it's no longer a viable option for knocking out opponents (something that G&W DESPERATELY needs). It also deals 5% less damage (which at first may seem small, but it adds up when you realize it does about 1/3 less damage than before). Meanwhile, B-air's damage was halved, it does one less hit, and has twice as much landing lag. It also can't 'eat' shields as well anymore.

IMO, b-air (and maybe d-air) needs its landing lag reduced. If you knew how to avoid it in Brawl, it wasn't a big problem, so it was pointless to hinder this move. Now it's only useful for gimping, but it's not much help since half of the cast has a god tier recovery anyway.

On a side note, N-air feels like it has a lot less range than it should. Could just be me, but connecting more than 3 hits with it seems like a chore.
FAir being unsafe on hit at early percents is not a unique phenomenon, several of Villager's attacks have the same problem. Its landing lag is very manageable, IMO, since it has far less than Brawl. It would be nice to follow it up with an attack or two, though, I agree. If it gets a damage increase I can't see them buffing it by more than 1%.

Regarding BAir, while it dealing extra damage would be nice, I don't think its necessary. It's a massive disjointed hitbox that sends the foe away as long as the final hit connects, and fortunately the prior hits lead into the last one quite well. Fastfalling it against shields tends to poke with relative consistency, too. Again, it's a little weak, but I doubt it'll be buffed much if at all. It along with FAir are primarily meant to be damage racking/spacing attacks.

NAir only has 4 hits in the first place, lol. Honestly the hitbox simply seems to match the animation, unlike in Brawl, starting above him and ending at his sides. Just be glad it still does 17% if all hits connect. I just wish it still autocanceled from a low jump.
 

Watulio

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Alright, this is a global suggestion for all heavy fighters with no projectiles (Ganondorf, Bowser, Donkey Kong and possibly ike), but I wanted to discuss it first. The idea is simple. Remember how bowser can completely phase weak projectiles when he's below 10%, I want that for all the heavy characters I previously mentioned, at all times.

Remember, it's discussion. Anyways, my reason is that those heavy characters with 0 projectiles already have trouble approaching. With this passive super armor characters aiming to stop enemies in their tracks with very weak projectiles, like pikachu, mario, luigi, link's and toon link's uncharged arrows and boomerangs, Rosalina's star bits would have to go confront the tough guy. Of course, the weak projectiles would still do damage, but doing it when the heavy character is near will be your doom, so you'll have to think more before shooting randomly. And stronger projectiles would still knock them.

I personally think this would atleast help the big guys have a much better approach. Of course, I've asked this to a few casual players, who don't like the idea because they do use those weak projectiles alot, and a few tourney goers, who like the idea because those heavy characters, non projectile are pretty low on the tier lists in all games, but think it'd destroy some setups, like mario's fireball set up into jab and a few others.
 

TheMiSP

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Think I'll finish my thoughts and move on.

What I think G&W needs? Just one of these changes.

1. Make him survive longer. Still don't know about momentum cancelling AKA Bucket Braking, neither the weight. This one's a meh.

or

2. Let him combo further with ease so he doesn't struggle hitting past 60%. Quite a few others besides him have setups from dthrow, so he really isn't THAT unique. Basically let him get a foe to 180%~ fast enough to land a quick final blow. But he'll need less lag on attacks.

or

3. Make him kill earlier. He just most likely won't survive to rage with the weight he possesses.

Just one of these three would be great. We don't need to shoot him up to top 5 by buffing all three aspects. One should be enough.

But on top of all of that we have to take his buffed dash attack, fast ftilt, and superb recovery, because those are his positives. But right now he's manageable I guess...
 
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B!squick

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Alright, this is a global suggestion for all heavy fighters with no projectiles (Ganondorf, Bowser, Donkey Kong and possibly ike), but I wanted to discuss it first. The idea is simple. Remember how bowser can completely phase weak projectiles when he's below 10%, I want that for all the heavy characters I previously mentioned, at all times.
If only it was that simple. Much like the list of stages where Bowsercide ends in sudden death or Bowser losing, you would need a list for all the specific seemingly arbitrary moves and percentages Tough Guy works on. Here it is in fact.

The Green Fireball: 0-55%
Fire Jump Punch (Single Coin): 0-999%

Dair: 0-6% (First three hits only)
Mr. Saturn: 0-15% (Tilt throw) 0-12% (Smash throw) 0-30% (Sh drop) 0-17% (Float drop)
For the float drop I dropped from about where Peach would space Dair on a standing Bowser.

Dash attack 0-1% Any three hits minus the last one.

Uncharged Waft (Trip): 0-999%

Judge 2: 0-8%

Uncharged Arrow: 0-6%
Half charged Arrow: 0%

Jab (Rapid): 0-162%

Dancing Blade (Rapid): 0-97% All hits except the last one.

Jab 1: 0-74%
Jab 2: 0-57%

Jab: 0-50% All hits except finisher.

Jab (Rapid): 0-120% All hits except the finisher.
Dair: 0-11%

Jab 1: 0-107%

Jab (Close): 0-8%
Jab (Tip): 0-34%

Jab (Rapid): 0-50% All hits except finisher.
Bair (Hit 1): 0%
Bair (Hit 2):0-1%

Clay Pidgeon (Zapper Shots): 0-306% First two shots only.

Jab 1: 0-8%

PK Fire (Pillar): 0-44% Basically every hit after the initial one.
Dtilt: 0-164%

Jab (Rapid): 0-101% Only works at the very tip.

Dsmash(Uncharged): 0-3% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 6%): 0-2% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 7%): 0-1% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 8%): 0% Both hits. It has to pretty much have just reached an 8% charge, fully charged Dsmash will always work.

Jab 3 (Bury): 0-19%
Jab 3 (Bury) [Deep Breathing]: 0-16%

Pellets (Weak hit): 0-372% All versions, basically mid to max range.
Crash Bomb: 0-190% All hits except the last one, possible for the last hit to whiff if you're moving during the explosion.

Stone Scabbard (Weak hit): 0-999% There's a shockwave when the sword is stabbed into the ground that always gets shrugged off. This hit is the very tip of the shockwave, so it's not likely to happen much in an actual fight. Also I tested this with a small and large physique, there was no difference.

Not sure if this is even all of them.
 
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Watulio

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If only it was that simple. Much like the list of stages where Bowsercide ends in sudden death or Bowser losing, you would need a list for all the specific seemingly arbitrary moves and percentages Tough Guy works on. Here it is in fact.

The Green Fireball: 0-55%
Fire Jump Punch (Single Coin): 0-999%

Dair: 0-6% (First three hits only)
Mr. Saturn: 0-15% (Tilt throw) 0-12% (Smash throw) 0-30% (Sh drop) 0-17% (Float drop)
For the float drop I dropped from about where Peach would space Dair on a standing Bowser.

Dash attack 0-1% Any three hits minus the last one.

Uncharged Waft (Trip): 0-999%

Judge 2: 0-8%

Uncharged Arrow: 0-6%
Half charged Arrow: 0%

Jab (Rapid): 0-162%

Dancing Blade (Rapid): 0-97% All hits except the last one.

Jab 1: 0-74%
Jab 2: 0-57%

Jab: 0-50% All hits except finisher.

Jab (Rapid): 0-120% All hits except the finisher.
Dair: 0-11%

Jab 1: 0-107%

Jab (Close): 0-8%
Jab (Tip): 0-34%

Jab (Rapid): 0-50% All hits except finisher.
Bair (Hit 1): 0%
Bair (Hit 2):0-1%

Clay Pidgeon (Zapper Shots): 0-306% First two shots only.

Jab 1: 0-8%

PK Fire (Pillar): 0-44% Basically every hit after the initial one.
Dtilt: 0-164%

Jab (Rapid): 0-101% Only works at the very tip.

Dsmash(Uncharged): 0-3% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 6%): 0-2% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 7%): 0-1% Both hits.
Dsmash(Charged to 8%): 0% Both hits. It has to pretty much have just reached an 8% charge, fully charged Dsmash will always work.

Jab 3 (Bury): 0-19%
Jab 3 (Bury) [Deep Breathing]: 0-16%

Pellets (Weak hit): 0-372% All versions, basically mid to max range.
Crash Bomb: 0-190% All hits except the last one, possible for the last hit to whiff if you're moving during the explosion.

Stone Scabbard (Weak hit): 0-999% There's a shockwave when the sword is stabbed into the ground that always gets shrugged off. This hit is the very tip of the shockwave, so it's not likely to happen much in an actual fight. Also I tested this with a small and large physique, there was no difference.

Not sure if this is even all of them.
Thanks for the info. Tough guy seems pretty useless to me unless you're fighting a jab happy metaknight until you have 50% damage.
 

Nysyr

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Lucario:

Fix ledge snapping for Up-B, seems to be something that got untested in the move from 3ds -> Wii-U as normally hitting below the ledge in such a way would activate a wall cling.

Could also be a stage issue with wall clings not functioning properly.

Jab - Fix knockback so all hits will string. Easiest fix is to lower the wait between jab 2 -> 3, knockback angle change to being more horizontal would also work.
 

Darklightjg1

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Zelda: Consistency on her smash attack hitboxes so characters don't randomly fall out on hit and a storable phantom special. I don't think it's unreasonable to want that for her to be viable.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Wario should get rid of that awful gap between his N-Air's sweetspot and sourspot. It currently hits the sweetspot ONLY on Frame 4, has NO hitbox from Frame 5 until Frame 15, and then goes into the sourspot.
 
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capfalcon159

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this seems less of a favor to nintendo, and more nagging them, I just don't think they will cooperate.
 

Watulio

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Right? And I can confirm that that is everything.
I personally think all heavy characters should have 8-9% super armor only on projectiles for them to have chances to approach their enemies since either they'll be charging them or trying to go cqc
 
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Darklightjg1

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this seems less of a favor to nintendo, and more nagging them, I just don't think they will cooperate.
Tbh, I don't even see in the OP how anyone directly involved in the development of the game would even see this thread or any of the suggestions in it. They could change their mind if the perceived demand is high enough, but I don't know how they would come to that conclusion if nobody sees feedback like in this thread.
 

capfalcon159

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Tbh, I don't even see in the OP how anyone directly involved in the development of the game would even see this thread or any of the suggestions in it. They could change their mind if the perceived demand is high enough, but I don't know how they would come to that conclusion if nobody sees feedback like in this thread.
True, but some fan's requests have actually changed games. I mean why do you think Nintendo removed tripping and sped up smash 4? Although they weren't direct fan requests like this one, Nintendo did it because they need the competitive scene now more then ever. Back to my point, Nintendo was probably adding those things through clenched teeth. They didn't want to, but it was really the only thing they could do to try to boost sales from the consumers that are die-hard melee fans. There is just no way that they would do it again. Nintendo absolutely HATES when fans try to control their products. You think they were happy when die-hard LoZ fans outraged from the reveal of windwaker? But they still came out with Twilight Princess soon after.
 

Salad Bowl

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Please reduce the lag on Wii Fit Trainer's smashes. They have so much startup and end lag making them only useful for reads and they'll almost never hit. If you miss, you will NEVER be unpunished. Due to so much lag, Wii Fit Trainer's reliable kill moves are ftilt, uair, and bair
 

Artmastercorey

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I dont know about every character,most seem balanced to me. Except maybe decrease toonlinks landing lag so he can activate a shield when he lands since he was nerfed so much already.
 

Shaya

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Just a thing...
but

"MAKE SOMETHING BETTER" doesn't help anyone, including yourself. Make smashes less laggy? Make this move do what I want it to do?
How is that even remotely worth reading, let alone considering.

"wiifit's down smash hits until frame X, and the end lag is frame Y, I think the end lag should be Z because '...'
If you don't know this information, as in you cannot specifically state the literal change needed, then you shouldn't be wasting our time. The thread rules state this and I agreed that I would be throwing out spam infractions for people making these superfluous suggestions (haven't done it recently, mainly because Gheb seems overloaded as it is). Coercing people into doing it properly requires constant attention I suppose, which is a shame; this thread doesn't seem to work publicly when the audience aren't remotely experienced in software/design and aren't willing to take this seriously.
 
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lordvaati

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Universal: slightly less invincibility frames on rolls.


Ganondoerf: whiffed Flame Choke autosnaps near edge just like with Cap's Raptor Boost when going off stage

Charizard: allow the ability to cancel Flare Blitz distance by holding down B(akin to Fox Illusion/Falco Phantasm).

Palutena: OK, this is the extreme one, but: adjust character's custom oves so that they can be used without needing customs on just like the Mii Fighters.
 
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Salad Bowl

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Please reduce the lag on Wii Fit Trainer's smashes. They have so much startup and end lag making them only useful for reads and they'll almost never hit. If you miss, you will NEVER be unpunished. Due to so much lag, Wii Fit Trainer's reliable kill moves are ftilt, uair, and bair. Uair doesn't kill until 135% and so does ftilt.
Fsmash comes out on frame 16. Please make it come out on frame 12.
Usmash comes out on frame 14. Please make it come out on frame 11.
Dsmash comes out on frame 18. Reduce it to come out on frame 14.
Thank you

@ Shaya Shaya Is this better?
 

Shaya

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Please reduce the lag on Wii Fit Trainer's smashes. They have so much startup and end lag making them only useful for reads and they'll almost never hit. If you miss, you will NEVER be unpunished. Due to so much lag, Wii Fit Trainer's reliable kill moves are ftilt, uair, and bair. Uair doesn't kill until 135% and so does ftilt.
Fsmash comes out on frame 16. Please make it come out on frame 12.
Usmash comes out on frame 14. Please make it come out on frame 11.
Dsmash comes out on frame 18. Reduce it to come out on frame 14.
Thank you

@ Shaya Shaya Is this better?
It gives me an idea of how much you want. But wasn't your main issue the punishability or end lag? (I know that's harder information to come by).
So in general you feel the 3-4 frames difference will give the character the edge to get punishes/reads more often?

The up smash change is the bigger[est] thing, as it's out of shield.
 
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Salad Bowl

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It gives me an idea of how much you want. But wasn't your main issue the punishability or end lag? (I know that's harder information to come by).
So in general you feel the 3-4 frames difference will give the character the edge to get punishes/reads more often?

The up smash change is the bigger[est] thing, as it's out of shield.
The bigger thing is that it'll never hit due to start up and this would make her smashes way more viable. I'm okay with having end lag as long as you can start hitting with her smashes
 

~ Gheb ~

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Getting back into this step by step...

Regarding @ TTTTTsd TTTTTsd input on Doctor Mario.

I disagree that buffing his mobility would be the best way to fix his lack of viability. That'd only serve to make him even more of a Mario clone than he already is. While a slight mobility buff is not entirely out of the question for me I think it'd be better to enhance some of Doc's natural strengths. One problem is that he is supposedly a "stronger" version of Mario which never actually plays out that way because up B is situational and fair has surprisingly low knockback. I think it'd be better to increase the knockback of these moves to make them actually dangerous and to improve his damage output so he gets some clearly noticeable plus points that Mario doesn't have to the same extent.

More later.

:059:
 

TTTTTsd

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Getting back into this step by step...

Regarding @ TTTTTsd TTTTTsd input on Doctor Mario.

I disagree that buffing his mobility would be the best way to fix his lack of viability. That'd only serve to make him even more of a Mario clone than he already is. While a slight mobility buff is not entirely out of the question for me I think it'd be better to enhance some of Doc's natural strengths. One problem is that he is supposedly a "stronger" version of Mario which never actually plays out that way because up B is situational and fair has surprisingly low knockback. I think it'd be better to increase the knockback of these moves to make them actually dangerous and to improve his damage output so he gets some clearly noticeable plus points that Mario doesn't have to the same extent.

More later.

:059:
More damage output is something I'd be more than willing to accept as well. I am a believer in Utilt and Uair having a smidge more damage tacked on to make his attacks and main combo moves significantly stronger than Mario's without being ridiculous.

Mainly because as a slower, stronger version of Mario it really only shows in his KO potential and not really throughout his general moveset.
 

Salad Bowl

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Getting back into this step by step...

Regarding @ TTTTTsd TTTTTsd input on Doctor Mario.

I disagree that buffing his mobility would be the best way to fix his lack of viability. That'd only serve to make him even more of a Mario clone than he already is. While a slight mobility buff is not entirely out of the question for me I think it'd be better to enhance some of Doc's natural strengths. One problem is that he is supposedly a "stronger" version of Mario which never actually plays out that way because up B is situational and fair has surprisingly low knockback. I think it'd be better to increase the knockback of these moves to make them actually dangerous and to improve his damage output so he gets some clearly noticeable plus points that Mario doesn't have to the same extent.

More later.

:059:
What about my wii fit trainer suggestion
 

~ Gheb ~

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I'll get into things bit by bit. Will cover stuff from like 3 pages ago first before I get into the more recent suggestions.

:059:
 

cot(θ)

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A bit of a necro here, but one thing I'd really like to see in a patch is the ability to make single-use custom fighters on the character select screen. With all custom moves available from the beginning.
 
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Twin Rhapsody

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A bit of a necro here, but one thing I'd really like to see in a patch is the ability to make single-use custom fighters on the character select screen. With all custom moves available from the beginning.
This is similar to what I was going to suggest. I'd like a menu to pop up when selecting your character, that allows you to choose your special moves on the character select screen. I don't know why Nintendo thought forcing people to use 10 slots for premades was a good idea.

Whether this is possible or not I don't know, but it would make selecting moves infinitely more streamlined.
 
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popsofctown

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I would like to see, either optionally or by default, a way for the game to replace sudden death mode with a victory screen for the character who had accumulated less % damage, using the internal % damage. We currently have to break % ties with a 1 stock rematch, which makes tournaments more difficult to run since the timeout game is frequently a bottleneck match whose result the rest of the tournament is waiting on. The fractional % lead is invisible to us, but does accurately reflect which play competed more skillfully as far as we can tell. If even the fraction is an exact tie, that scenario seems so lottery ticket unlikely it doesn't matter what the behavior is. Display % ties come up though.

Even in cases where the Display % is different, making the behavior of the game match the tournament rules if the setting is checked saves a little bit of downtime backing out of sudden death.

(If Nintendo wants to be more stylin, maybe they could give the winner a final smash in sudden death and paralyze the loser to accomplish the same result.)

As for nerfing the top tier, with Diddy I think I would like to see his grabs nerfed by 4 frames of startup. Other characters with multihit moves and projectiles to encourage you to be in shield don't get grabs with as much utility as Diddy. And he has a command grab too.
If you try to spotdodge the grabbing you get fsmashed, if you try to shield the multihits you get grabbed, which makes fighting Diddy feel pretty damned if you do damned if you don't.

Nerfing any one of his killing options will probably fail as he shifts over to the wide variety of other kill options he has. Nerfing his damage racking across the board will probably work, but could leave him feeling like Brawl Squirtle where the character feels like it is owning you way too much at every point, but then you win anyway from damage and weight discrepancies, which is not so fun for either party. My guess/opinion is relieving the pressure he has on spotdodge/roll/shield coming from every angle will make fighting against the character feel fun and strategic and not as much like a crapshoot.
There's a little bit of precedent for that approach, iirc Rosalina got grab cooldown nerfs in 1.4

I have little idea what should happen to Sheik. I think her recovery is so uninteractive that it would save everyone some time if she could tap a button to warp to the ledge in the next frame, though.
 
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