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Colorado Smash - MVG Presents: REVELATION 2 - MIDWEST NATIONAL! MVG QUALIFIER! May 16-17

Underload

Lazy
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
Yay for seven, but no yay for three starters - that's possibly the worst option we could take. It skews the first match in favor of campers way too much to be fair. When my choices are "some platforms", "flatness", and "flatness", Peach cries.
I can't (nor am I going to) please everyone. If you decide to play a character that only has good matchups against top tiers on counterpicks, that's your problem.

I've already figured the reason you want 7 starters is so you can strike BF, FD, and SV and force your opponent to pick between one of four counterpick-worthy stages.

BF, FD, and SV are BY FAR the most starter-worthy stages in the game. Zero stage hazards, flat throughout, no gimmicks. I can name at least one ideal that every stage on that list breaks, except for those 3.

Yoshi's Island as a CP? I'm curious to the reasoning.
Same for removing a minute off the timer.
Because I have 3 starters. 4 stages pretty much eliminates stage striking as a fair possibility. Yoshi's is the most starter-worthy stage after BF, FD, and SV, though.

As for the timer, tell me what preconceived notions you have that 8 minutes is better. You'll know why a 7 minute timer is a better option once you do that.

I'm also unsure why we need a cap on wall infinites. They're easy enough to avoid, and none of the stages have permanent walls. Does it happen often enough that it affects time (if that's the reasoning)?
If I want a 7 minute timer, I also want measures to be taken to prevent blatant forms of stalling. 150% is an extremely fair kill percent for Dedede, what would be the player's reasoning to go any higher? To shave some time off the clock, of course.

If you get grabbed at 120% on, say, the rooftop transformation of Delfino, and get stuck against one of the walls, Dedede could go for a good 30 seconds, well over a feasible kill percent. It's simply unnecessary, that's just one example.
 

CloudChaser071

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
115
If I want a 7 minute timer, I also want measures to be taken to prevent blatant forms of stalling. 150% is an extremely fair kill percent for Dedede, what would be the player's reasoning to go any higher? To shave some time off the clock, of course.

If you get grabbed at 120% on, say, the rooftop transformation of Delfino, and get stuck against one of the walls, Dedede could go for a good 30 seconds, well over a feasible kill percent. It's simply unnecessary, that's just one example.
This makes Ike cry :( heavies can unfortunately survive an utilt off a wall infinite at 150% with lame DI :(
 

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
8,001
Location
CO
3DS FC
1779-0766-2622
I can't (nor am I going to) please everyone. If you decide to play a character that only has good matchups against top tiers on counterpicks, that's your problem.

I've already figured the reason you want 7 starters is so you can strike BF, FD, and SV and force your opponent to pick between one of four counterpick-worthy stages.

BF, FD, and SV are BY FAR the most starter-worthy stages in the game. Zero stage hazards, flat throughout, no gimmicks. I can name at least one ideal that every stage on that list breaks, except for those 3.
A starter list's goal should be the attempt to minimize the amount of interference a stage has on the first match of a set. Ideally in concept, we'd have every single legal stage as a gigantic starter list. This is because a "starter-worthy" stage is match-up dependent. When we whittle away each opponent's best and worst stages, we reach a stage where both characters are simply "okay" with - an equal first match.

This doesn't happen with three stages. It's not a fair starting match when we don't whittle down to an "okay" stage, what we whittle down to is "X character's least best." Why not just choose a single "most neutral" stage at this point then? Let's just all play on Smashville.

"But when you eliminate all stage bias, the best characters are going to win."
I agree - they do and should. But it seems your mistaking stage bias in a match-up with stage bias in a vacuum. We're aiming to remove the former. Lack of damaging hazards does not make a fair starter, lack of "gimmicks" does not make a starter - a stage is only a starter when both characters are "okay" with it.

With shortening the starter list you're only adding bias, not eliminating it.

I can also explain how FD is actually one of the worst starters. When considering Brawl overall - a lack of platforms and closer space - FD is actually one of the more polarizing and powerful CPs in the game.

I can also explain how I'm not being biased. :rolleyes:
Seven starters isn't my secret plan to throw my CPs into the starter list, but simply the best solution to our fifth stage complaints. The three stages you mentioned are actually my favorite in the game - along with being (IMO) some of Peaches best stages. You're just being silly now.

As for the timer, tell me what preconceived notions you have that 8 minutes is better. You'll know why a 7 minute timer is a better option once you do that.
I always assumed it was the time a stock took times three...? I dunno really, that's why I asked. :p

If I want a 7 minute timer, I also want measures to be taken to prevent blatant forms of stalling. 150% is an extremely fair kill percent for Dedede, what would be the player's reasoning to go any higher? To shave some time off the clock, of course.

If you get grabbed at 120% on, say, the rooftop transformation of Delfino, and get stuck against one of the walls, Dedede could go for a good 30 seconds, well over a feasible kill percent. It's simply unnecessary, that's just one example.
I'd agree with Z, 150% seems a bit low.
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
8,189
200% is safe for D3 to back throw for the kill. Honestly, if you get stuff in a wall infinite. Its your own **** fault.
 

Moblin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
167
Location
Colorado
I agree with meno that FD is probably the most counter-pickable neutral in Brawl that I've ever seen in my life.

But that's coming from someone whose character has no projectiles


edit: I also want to see some colorado melee vids...!
 

iDoLiZeD

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
59
Location
極光
I thought this was going to be like a Brawl and Melee Tourney. Since About 9 melee players live over here, and brawl players live outside of Aurora.

Yes, smash plexxxxxxxxxxz


KEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYY I mmiss J00s :(
 

Underload

Lazy
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
What about melee rules? :))
Melee rules are 8 years in the making, I think they're solid enough as is. Melee's an older, more explored game.

(Lurk more Moblin, don't try and diss me, yo.)

To finish out what Meno decided to argue about, many of the things he talks about simply aren't reality, but ideals. An "absolutely neutral starter", or a "starter for each individual player's tastes". Neither of those exist. There will never be any sort of system that will make a match equal for both side.

Let me spell things out quickly, it's getting a bit late. The criteria for starter stages are simple. No physical hazards, no random / timed events or transformations that could potentially swing the match in either side's favor, minimal physical interference in a match, you get the gist of it. All these different rules are trying to reach one single goal. Find stages that interfere minimally with play, and leave the majority of the fight to the players themselves. Have you ever seen someone get blown up by a bomb on Battlefield? Or walk-off chaingrabbed on Smashville? Or someone be saved from certain death by a randomly appearing ghost? Or one's recovery gimped by FD's inherent tilting? No. Your notion of a "starter" is quite off. To make everything neutral and hunky-dory is impossible. You can only hope to leave things to the players, and not to the stage itself. FD doesn't camp you with Falco, the player does, and you can't help that. That's why some stages are starters, while others are counterpicks.

Done. You won't change my reasoning, I won't change yours. Why would you argue in the first place? It just creates unnecessary tensions.

_______________________________

Yeah, I guess I'll make it official. Melee tourney at EFL on the 30th. Show up. Tell me how much you want to pay for entry. $5? $10? Remember, you also will have to pay venue like the Brawl guys and the other fighter guys.
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
8,189
So

much win.


That is the first time I have ever and will ever use those words directed towards Zajice.
 

Zajice

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
11,167
Location
Equestria
For the people who play on my h4x'd wii, you'll be happy to know that I finally got off my lazy *** long enough to get rid of the lon lon ranch music I put on smashville for the lulz.



Edit:

Oh God, you have no idea how hard I'm laughing Dave.
 

tsizzinc

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
0
Location
Boulder Colorado Tomorrow
Hey everyone! I will be hosting Happy 2010 tourney on Friday, Jan 8th before I go back to school. I hope every smasher can come. It will be great because there will be brawl and there will be melee tourneys. The rules will be the same rules that everyone is used to for Brawl. Melee rules will be posted soon. The location is the:
University Village Center 1600 W. Plum St. Building 34 Ft. Collins, Colorado.

Venue is 8$ at the door, 4$ if you let me know before Wednesday Jan 6th via phone call or text message: 970-310-0999. Treat it as a pre-registration I guess.
Pot is 10$ for Brawl single and teams.
Pot is 10$ for Melee single.
There will not be Melee teams. Maybe next time.
Depending on how many people show up, you could probably do both Brawl and Melee.

Also let me know if you can bring any equipment such as TV's, Wii's and Cubes. I will only need:
2 TV's
3 Wii's + Brawl
1 Cube
2 Melee games

Doors open at 11 am on Friday. Hope to see you there. Also for further information call or text: 970-310-0999
I hear Wyoming is interested.
 

Bloshi

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
650
Location
The Triad of Power, NC
Sounds cool, and it's just up the interstate for me. I am interested. I can probably pick anybody up who wants to go provided they get to Niwot/North Denver on their own (i.e. Ferdi's house)

That doesn't mean we can't have a smashfest before that.
 

Timotee

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
302
Location
Denver, CO
I'm back, and I hurt myself =(

Oh, and the tourney on the 30th is at Stars center again. Get owned Roman.
 
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