Beat!
Smash Master
*Raises hand*
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Cliffhangers
- Thread starter Hax
- Start date
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Jonas
Smash Champion
But we DO need to wait until someone proves it broken in a tournament. Otherwise it's just theorycraft. We can't just ban something because "this seems broken" or "M2K said it's broken." Theory is useless if it has not been shown to be applied in practice.
Not calling into question M2K's authority on the matter though. However, appeal to authority is a poor way to approach an argument because M2K might just be wrong afterall. Maybe there are actually counter strategies he didn't think of.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
i dont even care if it gets banned or not i just think its banworthy
Sinji
Smash Master
Its one of those rules that is difficult to determine whether its banned or not.
Woobleing isn't banned and yet its gay.
We just have to go by the system and make the best out of it.
Woobleing isn't banned and yet its gay.
We just have to go by the system and make the best out of it.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
there are several things that arent banned and never will be that are "gay" (chaingrabs, puff in general, some peach stuff, marth stuff). its no reason to ban it.
Sinji
Smash Master
Yea I agree with Strong Bad. I don't think it should be band, but its still something interesting to talk about.
Jonas
Smash Champion
Our current ruleset pretty much just consider Wobbling to be a 0-death combo (or a 20-ish % to death combo). There's nothing inherently wrong with 0-death combos, much like there's nothing wrong with gimping characters at 0%, but Wobbling becomes a problem when it's used indefinitely for the purpose of stalling the match. Therefore most rulesets simply ban Wobbling past 300% or so.
Wobbling is a good example of something that is "gay" but remains unbanned, yet something that is broken (doing it indefinitely) and therefore banned. Broken stuff should be banned, but we should keep all the "gay" stuff in, because if we banned all the "gay" stuff, we would end up without much of a game left.
Sinji
Smash Master
thats reasonable enough. gay stuff shouldn't be banned. If they were banned, Melee wouldn't have any more flava. But Jiggs ledgecamp should be banned.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Make up your mind lol
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
ok so LOL at the smash community, once again being extremely dumb. at least approach the issue with interest (like a few people did) rather than approaching acting like an authority on rules
comparing planking to chaingrabbing is really bad. i cant really explain it.. but some characters chaingrab others, and its built into the game. having counter characters kind of makes smash interesting, and everyone will probably complain when someone picks sheik against axe, but then axe wins anyway and everyone loves him cause a pikachu beat a sheik.
whatever theres no real point in discussing this. intelligent top level players who understand the game think a tactic is broken, so maybe learn more about it before being a smashboards all star (go strong bad, with your incredible skill and knowledge of play.. oh wait) and making declarations
personally im glad that hbox is good enough that he plays puff in a gay way that is beatable, not in a gay way that is one dimensional and changes an incredible and innovative game into "try to safely grab the ledge against puff"
comparing planking to chaingrabbing is really bad. i cant really explain it.. but some characters chaingrab others, and its built into the game. having counter characters kind of makes smash interesting, and everyone will probably complain when someone picks sheik against axe, but then axe wins anyway and everyone loves him cause a pikachu beat a sheik.
whatever theres no real point in discussing this. intelligent top level players who understand the game think a tactic is broken, so maybe learn more about it before being a smashboards all star (go strong bad, with your incredible skill and knowledge of play.. oh wait) and making declarations
personally im glad that hbox is good enough that he plays puff in a gay way that is beatable, not in a gay way that is one dimensional and changes an incredible and innovative game into "try to safely grab the ledge against puff"
CloneHat
Smash Champion
It's not "built into the game?" What?
What's your argument for why this tactic is ban-worthy?
What's your argument for why this tactic is ban-worthy?
Max?
Smash Champion
Isn't Wobbling banned at most tournaments?
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
yes it is
my argument is that if it became prevelant in the meta it would make me hats smash bros
thats really the simple answer, cause ive seen it done and its been done to me (by someone who was better than me and didnt even play puff)
the longer answer is that if it makes smash less of a mental battle and real competition and more an exploitation of one tactic, id rather is just not be here
if you want to play a static game, stop bringing static play into smash bros and go play checkers or something
i trust m2k/hax enough as well as my own very limited experience to know that we would rather have nothing to do with it. and the dumb people in this thread who want "proof" or "evidence" or some **** before it being banned: it isnt about proof. cause there is no acceptable line where it is either banworthy or unbanworthy if u simply want to use tournmant results. what happens if one person ***** there locals with it and get $60? is that ban worthy, or will people not care enough? even if someone whens one national with it, is that evidence? maybe it should be 5 nationals. the whole idea of asking for evidence or proof in this situation makes u look like a very immature and close minded person, cause u dont realize that proof means absolutely nothing to an entire community.
whatever ive wasted too much time as it is posting this. i dont think top players will ever seriously do this, because if youre a top player, youve probably grown too attached to the game and like real competition too much to sink to this tactic. I'm worried about the people who enter brackets and end up getting 33rd place or something using it to beat newer players, and causing incredible frustration in them. also at this point, I just want to play smash for fun, and if i entered a tournament wanting to play only captain falcon and use only grabs and knees, im not gonna want some ******** tryhard player trying to gay me out of a match and then immediately losing next round to someone who actually cares about the winning.
my argument is that if it became prevelant in the meta it would make me hats smash bros
thats really the simple answer, cause ive seen it done and its been done to me (by someone who was better than me and didnt even play puff)
the longer answer is that if it makes smash less of a mental battle and real competition and more an exploitation of one tactic, id rather is just not be here
if you want to play a static game, stop bringing static play into smash bros and go play checkers or something
i trust m2k/hax enough as well as my own very limited experience to know that we would rather have nothing to do with it. and the dumb people in this thread who want "proof" or "evidence" or some **** before it being banned: it isnt about proof. cause there is no acceptable line where it is either banworthy or unbanworthy if u simply want to use tournmant results. what happens if one person ***** there locals with it and get $60? is that ban worthy, or will people not care enough? even if someone whens one national with it, is that evidence? maybe it should be 5 nationals. the whole idea of asking for evidence or proof in this situation makes u look like a very immature and close minded person, cause u dont realize that proof means absolutely nothing to an entire community.
whatever ive wasted too much time as it is posting this. i dont think top players will ever seriously do this, because if youre a top player, youve probably grown too attached to the game and like real competition too much to sink to this tactic. I'm worried about the people who enter brackets and end up getting 33rd place or something using it to beat newer players, and causing incredible frustration in them. also at this point, I just want to play smash for fun, and if i entered a tournament wanting to play only captain falcon and use only grabs and knees, im not gonna want some ******** tryhard player trying to gay me out of a match and then immediately losing next round to someone who actually cares about the winning.
crush
Smash Master
Random thought of teh day:
I wanna money match strong bad
I wanna money match strong bad
AXE 09
Smash Master
I think M2K should just start with a 50% lead or something, not a full stock lead lol
JPOBS
Smash Hero
AXE 09
Smash Master
Oh and just throwing this out there cuz I know it was mentioned a few times in this thread...
I don't think you need to be a top pro to understand a lot of concepts in this game. I don't like it when people say "oh, we're not gonna listen to you cuz you don't place in tournaments, or you're not a top pro or etc." There's still a lot of smashers who aren't considered really good who I look up to and go to them for advice because they're smart, and they know a lot about Melee even though they can't perform it.
I don't think you need to be a top pro to understand a lot of concepts in this game. I don't like it when people say "oh, we're not gonna listen to you cuz you don't place in tournaments, or you're not a top pro or etc." There's still a lot of smashers who aren't considered really good who I look up to and go to them for advice because they're smart, and they know a lot about Melee even though they can't perform it.
Djent
Smash Champion
I'm rather annoyed that people just kind of ignore Magus' frame-by-frame analysis of potential punishes to ledgestalling and instead are willing to go off of stories to make decisions that will affect hundreds of people. I mean wtf guys, 10 years of experience should have shown why this is a bad idea…
Magus has no reason to side with anybody. He's very knowledgeable about the game, but (to my knowledge) doesn't compete much anymore (if at all). This is an important thing to consider, people. Relying on top player info is important, but you guys are forgetting something:
Top players have a vested interest in the way the metagame develops.
If you take their word for everything, you might just end up playing the game that benefits them, instead of playing the game that's actually fair. And I'm not accusing top players of being dishonest, either: we all know that self-serving biases can be unconscious.
This is why it's essential to rely on people like Magus. I mean, what does he care if this tactic is banned or not? He has no reason whatsoever to present anything that isn't true. Meanwhile, the guys who frequently lose to top-level Puffs in tournaments are convinced that this strategy is a problem. I mean seriously, none of you question this?
People like Hax and M2K are essential for determining how effective certain strategies are in top-level play, because they're the ones who can best demonstrate the exact ways in which these strategies play out. But top players have motives and egos just like anyone else...which leads nicely into my next point:
Getting four-stocked by a lame-*** strategy is frustrating, especially in a game that's otherwise fun and un-lame. I imagine such an experience would influence even the most rational people to conclude a strategy, regardless of whether or not it actually is.
Now, it could turn out that Hax and M2K are 100% right about Puff. It could be that the punishes that Magus supplied, while possible in theory, are actually just too hard for even the best players to pull off consistently. But to determine this, we'd need extensive testing, not just anecdotal accounts of how bad it is.
So what does this all mean? It means that we need to rely on multiple sources of information to discern the truth about tactics like ledgestalling. We need people like Hax and M2K who are knowledgeable and perform well, but we also need people like Magus who are knowledgeable and don't perform well.
A lot of people write off the latter group of players because they don't have the same impressive records. This is why we don't base our analyses entirely off of what they say. But it would be equally dangerous to allow the best players to make all of our decisions, because these decisions directly impact everything they do.
TL;DR: M2K/Hax are concerned about this tactic, so we'd be foolish to write it off as something to ignore. But we shouldn't neglect the counters proposed by players such as Magus, because they present a case that anecdotes alone cannot destroy. Now all we need is a number of publicly-available match recordings of good players demonstrating just how viable these techniques are in practice.
Which, hopefully, we will have after Genesis 2.
Magus has no reason to side with anybody. He's very knowledgeable about the game, but (to my knowledge) doesn't compete much anymore (if at all). This is an important thing to consider, people. Relying on top player info is important, but you guys are forgetting something:
Top players have a vested interest in the way the metagame develops.
If you take their word for everything, you might just end up playing the game that benefits them, instead of playing the game that's actually fair. And I'm not accusing top players of being dishonest, either: we all know that self-serving biases can be unconscious.
This is why it's essential to rely on people like Magus. I mean, what does he care if this tactic is banned or not? He has no reason whatsoever to present anything that isn't true. Meanwhile, the guys who frequently lose to top-level Puffs in tournaments are convinced that this strategy is a problem. I mean seriously, none of you question this?
People like Hax and M2K are essential for determining how effective certain strategies are in top-level play, because they're the ones who can best demonstrate the exact ways in which these strategies play out. But top players have motives and egos just like anyone else...which leads nicely into my next point:
Getting four-stocked by a lame-*** strategy is frustrating, especially in a game that's otherwise fun and un-lame. I imagine such an experience would influence even the most rational people to conclude a strategy, regardless of whether or not it actually is.
Now, it could turn out that Hax and M2K are 100% right about Puff. It could be that the punishes that Magus supplied, while possible in theory, are actually just too hard for even the best players to pull off consistently. But to determine this, we'd need extensive testing, not just anecdotal accounts of how bad it is.
So what does this all mean? It means that we need to rely on multiple sources of information to discern the truth about tactics like ledgestalling. We need people like Hax and M2K who are knowledgeable and perform well, but we also need people like Magus who are knowledgeable and don't perform well.
A lot of people write off the latter group of players because they don't have the same impressive records. This is why we don't base our analyses entirely off of what they say. But it would be equally dangerous to allow the best players to make all of our decisions, because these decisions directly impact everything they do.
TL;DR: M2K/Hax are concerned about this tactic, so we'd be foolish to write it off as something to ignore. But we shouldn't neglect the counters proposed by players such as Magus, because they present a case that anecdotes alone cannot destroy. Now all we need is a number of publicly-available match recordings of good players demonstrating just how viable these techniques are in practice.
Which, hopefully, we will have after Genesis 2.
safehaven
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 479
thats why u shouldnt listen to hax and m2k cause theyre good, but cause they understand the meta of smash and the mechanics of it very well
@jpobs ya if u think think that some guys criteria for a ban should = a ban, what makes his opinion more valuable then m2ks or my mom's for that matter?
saying that a standard definitely exists is useless because it depends on teh game, community, and everyone's opininon is different. lollll anyway im gonna just ignore u cause i already read enough fox advice questions to know u DONT understand smash
w/e
djent: that was addressed to axe, not u
@jpobs ya if u think think that some guys criteria for a ban should = a ban, what makes his opinion more valuable then m2ks or my mom's for that matter?
saying that a standard definitely exists is useless because it depends on teh game, community, and everyone's opininon is different. lollll anyway im gonna just ignore u cause i already read enough fox advice questions to know u DONT understand smash
w/e
djent: that was addressed to axe, not u
Djent
Smash Champion
I somehow doubt that you managed to read my entire write-up in the 1 minute that elapsed since I posted it.
EDIT: Actually, this kind of shows why I shouldn't even bother discussing this anymore...ffs, why do I bother?
AXE 09
Smash Master
^Don't forget about my last post too lol. I agree with you, Djent! (even though I didn't read your entire post yet, just the TL;DR)
EDIT: And I still don't think this tactic is broken at all =/ I guess I need to see it for myself.
M2K you "sort of" showed me at Devastation, but if I recall I still didn't see it as a big deal or anything. I still saw ways around it, and I don't remember you ****** me or anything like that. Even if you beat me, I wasn't nearly as good back then (crazy what can be done in just a year lol)
EDIT: And I still don't think this tactic is broken at all =/ I guess I need to see it for myself.
M2K you "sort of" showed me at Devastation, but if I recall I still didn't see it as a big deal or anything. I still saw ways around it, and I don't remember you ****** me or anything like that. Even if you beat me, I wasn't nearly as good back then (crazy what can be done in just a year lol)
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
Guys, I think you're looking in the wrong direction to counter the camping at the ledge from Puff.
Sure you can exploit the holes in the defense at the edge there, but when m2k was in Australia and exposed our best to the tactic, we worked around and found a genius solution.
M2k got a stock lead on one of our players, then started to camp the edge. Rather than poking at the gaps in puffs edge game, the Australian player simply ran to the other side of the stage, and began taunting.
Miraculously, this drew m2k off the edge and back onto the stage, only to lose that stock lead.
Critical thinking is the key to success
On a more serious note, its a strong tactic yes, but not unbeatable. It gives puff an advantage (a beatable one at that) once she is already in the lead.
IMO enstating a limit would be good for a game, not only to hamper this tactic, but to reduce overall ledge stalling/camping game
Sure you can exploit the holes in the defense at the edge there, but when m2k was in Australia and exposed our best to the tactic, we worked around and found a genius solution.
M2k got a stock lead on one of our players, then started to camp the edge. Rather than poking at the gaps in puffs edge game, the Australian player simply ran to the other side of the stage, and began taunting.
Miraculously, this drew m2k off the edge and back onto the stage, only to lose that stock lead.
Critical thinking is the key to success
On a more serious note, its a strong tactic yes, but not unbeatable. It gives puff an advantage (a beatable one at that) once she is already in the lead.
IMO enstating a limit would be good for a game, not only to hamper this tactic, but to reduce overall ledge stalling/camping game
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Not really, I just think his opinion is incredibly well worded and he gives many valid examples. None are smash related, but a little imagination is all it takes to see how it applies. Also, he's not just "some guy", he's actually a game designer and has worked on SF:HD remix and balancing video games and card game. Its too bad you're just being stubborn and ignorant on purpose, his opinion is certainly worth taking into account, even if you don't agree with it.
Well thats like, you know, totally your opinion man.
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
I feel like sirlin is mostly un-related to smash itself, but his theories on players can be related to smash players.
In other words i dont feel he really should be brought up in a discussion like this. Or really any discussion about melee itself.
Granted im not an expert on the guy, but i feel in general comparing smash to standard fighting games misses the point and does no justice to either side.
In other words i dont feel he really should be brought up in a discussion like this. Or really any discussion about melee itself.
Granted im not an expert on the guy, but i feel in general comparing smash to standard fighting games misses the point and does no justice to either side.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Perhaps.
The interesting thing though is that he doesn't just talk about Street Fighter. If that were the case, it would be easy to say Sirlins stuff doesn't relate because smash =/= street fighter. But he also talks about many other games incuding Chess, starcraft, Puzzle fighter, Mario kart and probably more I'm forgetting.
My point is that I think its difficult for me to say "melee is different" and just ignore what he says because I want to be lazy and just not think about it. He's made lots of valid points concerning competitive principles in many different games, melee isn't that special.
But that's just my opinion.
The interesting thing though is that he doesn't just talk about Street Fighter. If that were the case, it would be easy to say Sirlins stuff doesn't relate because smash =/= street fighter. But he also talks about many other games incuding Chess, starcraft, Puzzle fighter, Mario kart and probably more I'm forgetting.
My point is that I think its difficult for me to say "melee is different" and just ignore what he says because I want to be lazy and just not think about it. He's made lots of valid points concerning competitive principles in many different games, melee isn't that special.
But that's just my opinion.
OverLord
Smash Ace
I think that article gets straight to the point.
^this
Actually in my whole smash experience I heard more unreasonable stuff from top players than average/high.
Except for safehaven, he's the best in trashtalking and bull****s, and always johns for himself buzzing stuff like "I don't care at all, u scrub im good don't need to play you lol I don't know why Im posting this!!11oneeeleventwelve".
I think I'll call him bumble-humble-bee-man.
Sinji
Smash Master
I did make up my mind. Jones helped me realize the difference between gay moves and broken moves in the game.
How is Jiggs' ledgecamp broken?
crush
Smash Master
Max?
Smash Champion
****ing immaculate.
Niko45
Smash Master
My mind is blown
You won't do it though, M2K.
Sinji
Smash Master
Puff is top tier.
No, puff shares a tier with fox and falco. It is plain to see how gross an error in judgment this was.
2012 tier list:
S: Puff
A: Puff
B: Puff
C: Puff, Reese's Puffs cereal
D: Pikachu
F: Everything else, cause it loses to puff.
2012 tier list:
S: Puff
A: Puff
B: Puff
C: Puff, Reese's Puffs cereal
D: Pikachu
F: Everything else, cause it loses to puff.
Max?
Smash Champion
Brookman's ahead of the metagame guys. His Jiggs uses one move and one move only:
Rest.
**** is waay too broken (when you've had 3 Four Loko's). Someone alert the Jiggs boards.
Rest.
**** is waay too broken (when you've had 3 Four Loko's). Someone alert the Jiggs boards.
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