Cliffhangers

[Hax]

I don't see what's wrong with the examples I posted. Chibo vs Tag is an example of someone who doesn't play the game keeping up with someone who consistently gets top 5 at our locals. if Chibo was even decent at melee and managed to take a % lead at any point in time Tag would have probably lost the match.

leffen as much as I hate to concede an argument to you after the way you just spoke to me, M2K just told me some ways around sheikstalling on AIM that I didn't know about. after seeing pros like Jman/Linguini get ***** by it I suppose I jumped to conclusions.

the Jigglypuff thing really is a problem though afaik. it's not like I want to have to propose Cliffhangers; I hate the thought of having to ban something in melee. but Jason and I find this strategy unbeatable at the moment

 

[Smasher89]

This is a result of the discussable stage bans that has happened during the last few years. Oh and for the record, it seems like puff can jump through CFs stomp and rest him, justice.

 

[Armada]

Wrong

The other stages you are talking about LEARNED a lot of people the fact that camping is good if you wanna win. That´s a big reason why a lot of more people play the way they are.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I mean ban it, just so we don't have to ever get to the point where it's "proven," but I don't think M2K would win Genesis 2 with that, and I also fail to see why he would do that to linguini? like, ok...?

 

[Strong Badam]

m2k's "planking puff" like 2 stocked me and he's a much better player than I am... like idk if he was trying his hardest but i still don't see how it's broken or whatever. i think if someone wants it banned they should win a tourney with it.

 

[Abate]

I really don't see how it's THAT good without seeing a tournament video of it happening. ChiboSempai vs Tag was just dumb... Falco really can't slip in at all?

Amsah vs Jman 3 didn't seem that bad. if it's two stocks left with 4 minutes left.. is there really that much of a rush for either character?

Also, I'm pretty sure I can slip my slippery weegee **** into ledge when both of those characters are stalling.

 

[Redact]

Guys I know this really -really- broken tactic with c.falcon, but I don't want to use it in tournament because I don't want to break the game.

Just trust me guys, ban c.falcon as he is completely unbeatable using this tactic.

 

[crush]

I'm pretty sure kirby has an unbeatable tactic where he can stand by the ledge and hold B and you can't hit him without getting sucked up and then he can run off the ledge and kill you both. My friend did it to me 10 times yesterday and I lost because whenever I tried to hit him with a pokeball or motion sensor bomb I missed and now I'm not the best on my block anymore

 

[Biglard]

I really don't see how it's THAT good without seeing a tournament video of it happening. ChiboSempai vs Tag was just dumb... Falco really can't slip in at all?

Amsah vs Jman 3 didn't seem that bad. if it's two stocks left with 4 minutes left.. is there really that much of a rush for either character?

Also, I'm pretty sure I can slip my slippery weegee **** into ledge when both of those characters are stalling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHfcafE9ig is the first thing that came to my mind while reading your post.

Also, it took me approximately one hour to find this video, because I was almost sure Brandon uploaded it on his channel (I was about to discover that I was wrong), so I scrolled down one thousand videos, before having the idea to search Pummeluff Pummeluff Pummeluff on Google, thus finding a shady video of Infernum vs Tero, thus remembering the name of the Puff playing this hideously campy match. So if you think this video is not really what you expected, please pretend the opposite. :>

 

[Massive]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPk1MRX0SD4 (ChiboSempai vs Tag) is an example of someone that doesn't even play this game stalling out Tag, a very good local player. keep in mind that this isn't even a good jiggs, nor was he ledgestalling properly. he also never took a % lead. still, Tag knew that attempting to take the ledge from jiggs is a futile effort

Are you ****ing serious!?
All i see in this video is 8 minutes of a cowardly falco.

M2K doesn't have an unbeatable strategy, if he did he would be shameless about explioiting it just like everything else he does, and real jiggs players like hbox would already be doing it.

If you're really worried about stalling, then remove the timer from tourney matches. Then chilling on the side all day is worthless and you just DQ ******** people like this.

 

[gghhh3]

Tero is the best player in the world, he stalls to avoid destroying everyone. I love it.

 

[Roneblaster]

I feel you hax, you dont want our favorite game to get ruined by ****** players while huge *** worthless ****s sit around and do nothing.

**** you if you think this thread or rule is dumb.

 

[Abate]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHfcafE9ig is the first thing that came to my mind while reading your post.

Also, it took me approximately one hour to find this video, because I was almost sure Brandon uploaded it on his channel (I was about to discover that I was wrong), so I scrolled down one thousand videos, before having the idea to search Pummeluff Pummeluff Pummeluff on Google, thus finding a shady video of Infernum vs Tero, thus remembering the name of the Puff playing this hideously campy match. So if you think this video is not really what you expected, please pretend the opposite. :>

Yes that is something I was hoping to see... Thanks for taking the time to find it (and no I'm not pretending haha). I had no idea puff would be even more annoying in a different language.

Now I'd like to see that bull**** vs. a fox like jman or lucky... or a top player of any character.

 

[dudutsai]

Until a rule is made, it is completely legit to use ledge stalling however you want... People who come up with new ways to win within the bounds of the rules should be applauded, not overwhelmed by scrubs and their scrub mentalities. I'm pretty darn surprised how many 'competitive' players have such dumb mindsets about this.

I do think this is an unbeatable strategy in certain matchups (jigglypuff version), and a huge advantage in others. I can definitely see it getting banned.

At the moment I don't see people banning it in the near future though. Hax, is there a reason why you put this in General Melee instead of the Broom? If you guys came to a general consensus on this it would go a long way in changing rules about ledge stalling... a lot more effective than this thread at least imo

 

[ph00tbag]

the tactic is broken with jiggs guys. Instead of just explaining it out, any fox falco or falcon can money match my jiggs while i use this tactic and I'll show you first hand.

Real talk right now. If you actually want to prove anything, accept these money matches from players of any character. Otherwise you'll frankly prove nothing.

 

[Roneblaster]

Dudu, You know nothing of high level play or high level mentalities or even have any knowledge of other games it sounds like. And by the looks of it you are color blind, hax isnt in the BR. There are no ledges, there is no ledge invincibility frames, there is no situation you cant attack in standard FGs.

Melee is different. Period.

Maybe you should not come back to this thread. Same goes for anyone who sympathizes with his pov.

 

[Hax]

good looks Biglard for posting that video, but I doubt it's gonna convince anyone. everybody's a professional/beats this strategy easily on smashboards

I don't post in the Broom because i'm not in it anymore. after they wiped out the list of Broomers and starting requiring new applications i didn't even bother. nothing gets done in there and nobody knows what they're talking about lol

edit: Abate, M2K 4 stocked jman w/ jiggs by using this strategy

 

[Brookman]

Real talk right now. If you actually want to prove anything, accept these money matches from players of any character. Otherwise you'll frankly prove nothing.

Actually, fox/falco/falcon players are relavent because they will be taking out the peach/marth/sheik players who will be taking out the ganon/IC/mario/link/samus players, leaving only fox/falco/falcon players to be beaten in GF by planking.

 

[CloneHat]

Maybe you should not come back to this thread. Same goes for anyone who sympathizes with his pov.

Maybe you shouldn't be on Smashboards, it goes against my point of view.

I've had minimal experience against planking Puffs, but M2K really has no decisive evidence. If he thinks it's broken, then he should be able to win Genesis 2, beating all the top players. It's unbeatable, right?

 

[Hax]

CloneHat, it's not unbeatable because jiggs needs a % lead or she can't win by time. M2K knows that his jiggs would need a miracle to take a lead vs a top pro, but should he get that lead and make it to the ledge then yes its unbeatable. as I said in my last post, he 4 stocked me and Jman with it.

should we really permit a strategy that allows someone to instantly win upon taking a % lead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHfcafE9ig&NR=1 is decisive evidence

if, say, hbox were to take a % lead (which is realistic) and then use this strategy, we'd all be ****ed

 

[Roneblaster]

Youre more than welcome to have a dissenting opinion, but if its baseless and has no well thought out part to it then it need not be expressed in a public forum.

 

[Niko45]

Why can't you just cc the fair and hit her as the invince wears off. She doesn't have an invincible regrab below the level or with a ledgehop fair + fade to the ledge so it seems like Jiggs is vulernable to some things and could be baited into commitments, etc.

Sai has been practicing this strategy for years and has failed miserably to achieve success with it (no offense sry). M2K is just a really dominant player around the edge and like mentioned is a lot more comfortable with ledge related options/scenarios than most people are. Unless he steam rolls Mango and PP with Jiggs this really isn't going anywhere.

 

[ph00tbag]

Actually, fox/falco/falcon players are relavent because they will be taking out the peach/marth/sheik players who will be taking out the ganon/IC/mario/link/samus players, leaving only fox/falco/falcon players to be beaten in GF by planking.

Unless the Jiggs that's trying to plank is taken out by someone's pocket Young Link early on. Or even in the Winner's Semis.

All characters are relevant here.

 

[Roneblaster]

My favorite part about this thread is bad players thinking they know more about this game than hax eggm and m2k.

 

[crush]

My favorite part about this thread is bad players thinking they know more about this game than hax eggm and m2k.

qft .

 

[dudutsai]

I thought that if you're a BRoomer you don't have to make your name purple, it just becomes an option to.

If you read my post you will see that I don't make any mention of fighting games, nor do I claim to know about them. I do stand by my opinion about mindset being the dominant factor in competition. Perhaps I don't know about high level play the same way you're talking about it, and it is true that I tried the strategy with little success.

That said, while smash is indeed different, the play to win mindset applies to smash as much as it applies to any game. While it's hard not to attack you personally for the scathing posts defending your bad logic, I will say that I based my observations off of the level that I'm at, which I don't think I overestimate. I have taken games off of a lot of good players, much better than myself with the strategy, and I have spent a lot of time thinking about theoretical punishes for it.

Also I don't actually say I know more than top level players... I'm actually agreeing if you read hard enough.


Niko: You can definitely cc the fair and punish back, but then they can switch over to using bair. Then if you stand slightly away, you're in range of a more aggressive bair. There are obviously mixups that arise from this, but jigglypuff still has a large advantage the whole time.

 

[Juggleguy]

I can personally attest to Hax's concerns, I've played M2K's planking puff and did probably 20% the whole match on my way to getting four stocked. Her ledge stalling is incredibly dumb and needs to be addressed. It won't be long until someone with enough talent to get a lead (Hbox) exploits it on a regional or even national stage.

 

[Strong Badam]

My favorite part about this thread is bad players thinking they know more about this game than hax eggm and m2k.

ad hominem *yawn*

jiggs must be vulnerable for at least 9 frames before they can regrab the ledge. this is not unbeatable no matter how you spin it.

 

[Brookman]

ad hominem *yawn*

jiggs must be vulnerable for at least 9 frames before they can regrab the ledge. this is not unbeatable no matter how you spin it.

Although he presents his point in a slightly offensive way the point is not invalidated by "ad hominem" since it is still correct.


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 12 (10 members and 2 guests)
Brookman, a nub, Hax+, JPOBS, Massive, finalcloud13, Tee ay eye, Divinokage, dudutsai

 

[Hax]

Sai, no offense but back when i played you you'd space some of the fairs poorly which is why i was able to beat you. you also didn't know when to ledgehop fair to guard the ledge; I often managed to take the ledge from you while it was uncontested

Strong Bad, the shieldstun or hitstun they endure is much longer than those 9 vulnerable frames. also that's not what ad hominem is lol stating that me/M2K/Eggm know what we're talking about has nothing to do with Reneblade's skill

 

[Massive]

ad hominem *yawn*

jiggs must be vulnerable for at least 9 frames before they can regrab the ledge. this is not unbeatable no matter how you spin it.

I was about to post something to this effect.

The shieldstun incurred from fair is minimal, it usually gets punished by marth fairs or OOS shine/nairs.
Before ledge regrab you can easily get dtilted by marth, air needled by shiek, low lasered by falco as well as a slew of other generally unpleasant things.

 

[Banks]

I'm gonna practice my ledgestalling after reading this thread



and lol I was hoping sai would be posting in here

 

[Strong Badam]

that's assuming they get hit by the fair. shieldstun on Fair is also 6 frames if it's fresh, 4 if it's fully stale, so I guess we should assume 5 if they're spamming it in such a manner.

it is ad hominem, he's stating that people other than Hax/Eggm/M2K don't have a right to express their opinion (he even exaggerates their expression to "thinking they know more about the game than") on the subject. it'd be like me coming into the Falcon thread and posting "I like to dash dance and approach with upair" and then someone saying "WTF you don't know more than hax" (???) regardless of whether or not I was wrong (which in that case I would be).

 

[Banks]

the tactic is broken with jiggs guys. Instead of just explaining it out, any fox falco or falcon can money match my jiggs while i use this tactic and I'll show you first hand.

It would have to be a fox/falco/falcon who could actually beat you otherwise. The problem would be if a lesser player could beat a better one just because of the tactic, not that you can beat someone using it. I'm sure there are far less effective things you could do multiple times to people per game and still win a set.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah, M2k could beat me using a ton of random dumb stuff like walk off DJ bair with sheik & stuff because he's better than me. banks makes a good point, that it'd need to be a player who would otherwise lose significantly being able to win with it.

 

[Roneblaster]

no people are out-right making fun of hax/eggm/m2k and saying they're wrong.
i've never said i was good.
you're wrong...........again.
you should leave too.

 

[Strong Badam]

okay reneblade

 

[Roneblaster]

im glad we could agree to such civil terms.

 

[dudutsai]

Wow guys, am I bad yet? What's the point of detailing my mistakes in this thread in particular, Hax? If you're trying to help then thank you..... but I don't really get that vibe.

I'm only telling you guys my experiences.... I'm a lesser player so they probably should and do count for less.

I took a games, sometimes sets off of players that are better than me using that strategy. I took Hax to last stock multiple times, something that I shouldn't have been doing if it was a comparison of true skill using the same strategy.
I wonder why my input created so much hate from you falcon mains....

Maybe you wanted this thread to just be a rant? I was thinking maybe it would actually lead somewhere.

 

[Strong Badam]

okay I admit i hadn't read the thread and some people (leffen for example) were being ridiculous to hax
BUT I found these two amazing posts

lol @ m2k not wanting to ruin melee.

he already ruined brawl for so many people

Brawl was ruined by Sakurai.

I think this thread has been successful.