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Charizard Tactical Discussion

T-block

B2B TST
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I've seen the f-air > up-b a lot too. Now that I think about it, if they're doing it more than once you probably could get into position.

There's still the fact that you will probably only get one window to input your SDI, and you'd end up rolling if you missed that window =\

You know what this reminds me of? The Marth matchup discussion thread *hint hint*
 

TheReflexWonder

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Flamethrower puts the Charizard/Dedede matchup at a standstill. Outside of a lucky read with Forward-B that turns into a Gordo, there\'s nothing that Dedede can do against well-spaced Flamethrower.

Flamethrower really is awesome.
 

Ingoro

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I love flamethrower, I love Charizar'd spacing qualities all together and I've decided that mine is..


female.

In all honesty, I'm getting a grip on using b reversal Flamethrower effectively and luckily the people I'm playing against all decide to SDI away from me instead of past me and punishing my flamethrower.
 

PokemonMasterIRL

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Breversal flamethrower was the greatestthing to ever happen to me.

Then I started breversalling rocksmash.


Mmmhmmm soo good.

Pt is such a rad character.

The one thing I often do not do well as charizard, is remeber to use his WHOLE moveset. Soo many good moves that have specific utility.
 

Xyless

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I love how the rule of thumb for me with flamethrower is "keep doing it until they hit you or get away".

So many people DI towards me and stay in the fire for a good extra 40% than they should.
 

Tesh

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How do I make use of charizard's tilts effectively?

He's floaty with a crummy airspeed so its difficult to airdodge a landing into a tilt the way squirtle and wario can.

He is the slowest walking character in the game and its difficult to dash into tilts without being obvious.

His movement is just so awkward.
 

Ingoro

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How do I make use of charizard's tilts effectively?

He's floaty with a crummy airspeed so its difficult to airdodge a landing into a tilt the way squirtle and wario can.

He is the slowest walking character in the game and its difficult to dash into tilts without being obvious.

His movement is just so awkward.
I believe his running speed is pretty good isn't it? I run away a lot so I can use the big range the f/dtilts have, as a dtilt "tippers" and the ftilt attacks with fire damage on max damage which does more knockback I believe. I believe in the hit and run theory work good for chari's tilts. Just don't try to fly away, as people will crouch faster then you.



My goal is to be the very best, like no one ever was.
tu tu tu
 

TheReflexWonder

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How do I make use of charizard's tilts effectively?

He's floaty with a crummy airspeed so its difficult to airdodge a landing into a tilt the way squirtle and wario can.

He is the slowest walking character in the game and its difficult to dash into tilts without being obvious.

His movement is just so awkward.
A lot of times, I say, "Tilt like you're DK" against characters with bad range, except D-Tilt isn't quite as safe. Regardless, abuse the range, and don't be obvious with them if you can help it. The important thing is that they have excellent range; it's worth making good use of it.

If someone is above you, U-Tilt will probably beat out whatever they have. That's probably his best tilt, and is the most spammable, for sure. F-Tilt is for when you feel they're going to do a grounded move that doesn't have much range, or if they like shorthopping a bunch (make sure to angle it upward there). Remember that the D-Tilt causes Charizard to lean back, so you can avoid some moves that way and retaliate, but it isn't particularly reliable. Jab -> Jab -> D-Tilt works at middling percents.

Charizard's run speed is 8th best (barely slower than Meta Knight). Charizard's ground game would've been amazing if he didn't stick his neck out while running, because it means you really can't dash up to anything offensive outside of instant B moves and RAR'd B-Air. On many good characters, you can't even dash, shield an inevitable attack, and expect to grab them, because he moves his neck backward when he shields, mostly negating the range advantage he would have in that situation; all it does is give people an opportunity to hit you before you start anything. This is why Rock Smash and (especially) Flamethrower are so important--They give you fast, safe, useful options out of a run, and condition your opponent to worry about them instead of your other moves.

Also, Charizard's grab is a pain, because it doesn't start at the base of his body, and people who get up close and personal (like, say, Falco) can avoid grabs just by being on top of you. Use shorthop N-Air, fullhop D-Air, or D-Smash to prevent it, depending on how safe they're being.
 

CoonTail

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Yea quite a few players are good at Di'ing the final hitbox with all the knockback on Zard's up-b but god damn that really is an insanely low ceiling.

A well placed Ivy vinewhip would deff kill
 

Tesh

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Yea quite a few players are good at Di'ing the final hitbox with all the knockback on Zard's up-b but god damn that really is an insanely low ceiling.

A well placed Ivy vinewhip would deff kill
Doesn't vinewhip send people horizontally though? PT sure is beast at killing off the top though. I would CP to halberd with PT if they weren't so crummy at sharking. I killed a metaknight at 32% with ivy's uncharged upsmash here.
 

CoonTail

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Doesn't vinewhip send people horizontally though? PT sure is beast at killing off the top though. I would CP to halberd with PT if they weren't so crummy at sharking. I killed a metaknight at 32% with ivy's uncharged upsmash here.
Lol Ivy's up-smash(aka nuke) will do that to MK....but vinewhip sends them at a diagonal just not as angled up as you would like but I could deff see the halberd cielings helping get Vinewhip KO's
 

CoonTail

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So i have been playing a large amount of friendlies against wolf lately and I started to find a bit of a different approach with rock smash.

I noticed that wolf players that are heavy on their laser game like to use the laser to link into their tilts and smashes especially when you attempt to get up close. My good friend is big on using the lasers to force and approach so that when you do approach you have to duck dodge and weave to get through all the laser.

I started using RS as an answer to up close lasers but only to set off the RS counter attack. If your getting closer to wolf as he is laser spamming a correct read of another laser being shot can easily be used to set off the RS counter attack which nulls his laser shot and the shrapnel connects. I wanted to see if anyone else was using RS in a similar manner in other matchups?
 

Aposl

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right as charizard head connects with the rock it becomes like falcos laser, therefore it can absorb a falco laser, this is good for when you are recovering and falco shoots lasers to stop your momentum.
 

CoonTail

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Wow I did not think of this aposl, good stuff man this was the info I was looking for in regards to using rocksmash counter to deflect/negate projectiles
 

Ingoro

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I know we are talking about rock smash in general, but I'm trying to learn my potential counterpicks (Frigate, Halberd & Delfino) and I'm discovering new things with charizard's flamethrower, well it's not really new but in certain situations if you aim the flamethrower at the wall like for example the stage transformation with delfino with the sun in the middle, if you stand on either of the sides and get to the wall as close possible and aim the flamethrower down, it goes right up and sorta gives you an advantage in your position.
 

CoonTail

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Awkward but interesting find ingoro see if you can find some videos or get some up of this so we can get a real idea of what we are working with please :)
 

Tesh

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I know we are talking about rock smash in general, but I'm trying to learn my potential counterpicks (Frigate, Halberd & Delfino) and I'm discovering new things with charizard's flamethrower, well it's not really new but in certain situations if you aim the flamethrower at the wall like for example the stage transformation with delfino with the sun in the middle, if you stand on either of the sides and get to the wall as close possible and aim the flamethrower down, it goes right up and sorta gives you an advantage in your position.
I do this sometimes, though I find the trouble of applying it is that if you are next to the right kind of wall, you opponent probably wouldn't try to approach you anyway.
 

Geenareeno

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I know we are talking about rock smash in general, but I'm trying to learn my potential counterpicks (Frigate, Halberd & Delfino) and I'm discovering new things with charizard's flamethrower, well it's not really new but in certain situations if you aim the flamethrower at the wall like for example the stage transformation with delfino with the sun in the middle, if you stand on either of the sides and get to the wall as close possible and aim the flamethrower down, it goes right up and sorta gives you an advantage in your position.
I know what you mean. But they can just jump over the wall and punish before you are done using it. Plus the longer you use it the easier to punish. But you could use it to punish someone who is just running at you and going to dair you or something. But Up Smash might work better for that.
 

Tesh

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yea, pretty much that. if ur punishing something above you, might as well just use your timing and go with much stronger higher priority attacks.
 

Tesh

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there are too many bad things about charizard to have matchups greatly in his favor imo. He beats Ganondorf pretty solidly ofcourse, but even then, u get messed up bad if you get hit by gerudo.
 

T-block

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Ivy does fine against Zard. She's can't kill him, but that's whatever.

Charizard does not beat Peach x.x I got wrecked by Peach last tournament I was at lol

Charizard > Bowser and DK imo. Those are the most obvious to me.
 
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