Charizard Tactical Discussion

[Tesh]

I think fullhop Dair hits short character regardless though. You can full hop dair, then dj dair and then you have to land though (autocancels). Unfortunately its not a amazing as ganon's dair spam.

 

[Scatz]

I know that it doesn't land on MK, but it might hit other characters that are a little taller than him. I'm aware that it's nothing nearly as good as Ganon's Dair spam, but Zard's isn't really meant like Ganon's. I feel like Zard's playstyle is fairly linear than the rest of his team, and I think this can help apply pressure in certain places than just always using tradional old methods.

 

[Ingoro]

Seems like a high risk/low reward kinda deal. What if the opponent reads it and sidesteps to the middle of the stage? there's enough time to punish. Apart from that I use Dair when I'm being chased to aggresively in the air or for characters recovering low.

 

[Scatz]

I don't mean using it when opponents are in the middle of the stage. Only when they're near the ledge so that if they were to shield, the pushback should push them off the stage and allow us to be free of punishment. If they were to spotdodge, we still might be able to at least dodge the counterattack depending on whichever side the opponent has the slower move (like D3's Fair in relation to his Bair). It's only a theory since I haven't had a chance to play lately, but I think it's at least a 50/50 chance. When you do land it, the pop up should give us a good position to bait an airdodge and punish with a stronger move.

 

[Ingoro]

I meant: That they would punish us by rolling to the middle of the stage, avoiding the ledge and then punish accordingly. Not to mention that dair is slow, you can not not see it coming. What you're saying could work if you're playing against a very defensive player who's scared for the huge hitbox.

 

[Scatz]

Wait, if they rolled towards the middle of the stag, wouldn't that still make it fairly safe if we were to DI towards the ledge? I would think spotdodging would be more drastic than rolling since there's less cooldown on spotdodges.

I see where you're gettign at though. I might try to test it on my own time and look at the frame data.

 

[Ingoro]

Hmm, if you try to dair and our opponent reacts to it wouldn't it be smarter to DI off the stage as fast possible and aim for the ledge? I'm just throwing out ideas here, I haven't checked if that would be an option, it's 02:00 here

 

[Scatz]

IIRC, it should just pop them striaght up. Even if they were to DI towards the stage, that gives us stage cotnrol. So, I still see that as a win in that scenario.

 

[Tesh]

Its not low reward imo. Dair pops people up right in front of you just like Ganon's at low percents. If its a little stale, it can even semi combo into an Up B at kill percents. I don't use Dair like that much (my zard is a simple grabby campy special spamming kinda guy), but its alright sometimes. Its just if you get reacted to quickly, people can OoS you and you are in a juggle situation, unlike getting punished horizontally, which would likely still leave you close to the ground.

In THAT way the risk can be sorta high. If you are dealing with a character with a quick juggling Uair like marth, mk, squirtle, mario etc.


edit: i wasnt sure so i didnt post this earlier, but full hop dair DOES hit mk, you just have to be almost directly above him to get enough vertical range. Not that this would be a super useful tactic vs this jugglebat.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Some thoughts--

I was looking at hitbubbles and frame data and saw some interesting stuff...

Check out Charizard's N-Air. We have the first frame...

...and the last frame...

The first frame of N-Air's hitbox appears to rival B-Air in terms of range. That's nothing special by itself, since B-Air tends to hit harder, but when you think of how the move works afterward, its use has some interesting merit to it.

When using it as an edgeguard, it would be used in a way that is similar to B-Air. It outranges many aerials and is generally safe to throw out. However, B-Air is clearly not hitting much outside of where the initial hitbox is. In terms of covering options, though, N-Air looks very promising. The first hitbox hits a little higher than N-Air, meaning that Charizard's body is safer from horizontal swings (from, say, Marth's N-Air or most characters' B-Airs).

Charizard spins after that, creating a large hitbox above his body that could very well hit characters attempting to recover high with their mid-air jump. Most characters feel safe in that, and will hold straight left or right to move toward the stage, which creates bad DI after getting hit by N-Air, as it sends people horizontally. It also has the luxury of being a one-hit attack, which means that people won't have enough time to react and fix their DI after getting hit.

Recovering low tends to make characters airdodge to avoid ranged attack, which is fine, since you can see that the end of Charizard's hitbox ends up below him, which prevents most airdodges from avoiding it at the end. Again, it sends the opponent horizontally, and most characters aren't going to be holding up and away from the stage as their airdodge ends, so it could lead to a gimp, or at least another attack afterward.

tl;dr--Using Charizard's N-Air as you would use B-Air to edgeguard appears to cover many recovery options at once. We should get used to that application and see what comes of it.

Also, the frame data thread says that a hitting an opponent's shield with a sourspot N-Air right before we land on the ground (after it starts auto-canceling, of course) would give us -1 as far as frame advantage goes. That's not exactly putting us in control of the situation, but it would put a ton of pressure on many different opponents, as it puts us in a neutral situation that is very similar to getting grab-released, except that both characters are basically touching each other, so Up-B (due to super armor) and U-Smash out-of-shield both become viable options. It looks like we should be hovering around shields with this more often as a mix-up between ranged attacks and other stuff. Let's mess around with it and see what we can do.

 

[CoonTail]

God damn luis the stuff you manage to break out is insane.....I had this happen randomly a couple times but if you think about this the only real up-side that b-air might have over this is the horizontal knockback from the sweetspot. The crazy part is though that the sweetspot on n-air sends them upwards for the most part so that the mix-up could cause DI issues that would have high chances are KOing.

Also the beauty here is n-air autocancelling over the ledge also leaves us with the option to punish anybody how managed to recover high but got over n-air. I like this a lot and it will be heavily tested out during my friendlies with Vinnie today .

 

[Steeler]

i like the thought behind that post

i don't think using it aggressively on shields is very practical tho, just because of how long nair's animation is.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

i like the thought behind that post

i don't think using it aggressively on shields is very practical tho, just because of how long nair's animation is.

The idea is to hover just outside of a person's range while falling, though. It's like using, say, ROB's N-Air, while facing away. If a character has no great way to punish that, or if they fear a jumping D-Air, it can give us an opportunity to use it effectively. If they have a great get-off-me move out of shield, we could pull away and attempt to bait it. Either way, if they're scared into using their shield, it allows us to try to get inside with it.

 

[Steeler]

very good point luisito

 

[CoonTail]

Since we are on the topic of good uses for moves we originally thought were a bit lower class.
I forget who stated it (I think it was you Steeler) and where it was posted, but I started trying out using F-tilt to beat MK's nado and the outcome was surprisingly great.

It obviously needs to be used against a tornado thats close to grounded and is coming at you, but I toy around with yoshi alot and using his pivot grab to beat tornado feels very similar spacing wise to using Zard's f-tilt. I have not toyed around with angling F-tilt to hit nado but it seems that if the tip or sweetspot hit MK it breaks nado everytime. The only time I seemed to hit tornado and not break it was when I missed hitting MK within the center of the nado and hit to high/ nicked the sides without fully making it into nado to hit MK.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The issue is that Charizard's walk speed is horrible, so it's difficult to space, but a run -> shield -> F-Tilt can often work well, as well as a general read into F-Tilting the Tornado really early.

Perhaps we should experiment more with using Up-B to Super Armor and counter certain juggles (I bet we could hit Mach Tornado on reaction, for instance). Does the Super Armor start on Frame 4? I seem to remember someone saying that a long time ago.

 

[T-block]

True pivot f-tilt.

PRACTISE THAT TECH SKILL

 

[Tesh]

Ftilt ranger is really nice. When edgeguarding, you can space it just right and it can cover alot of options and if people try to roll past it, they are STILL in front of you.

 

[CoonTail]

Luis I know Aposl has messed around with Zard's up-b super armor alot. Super armor does start on frame 4 from what was told to us a while back, but I couldn't find the thread. The biggest issue with up-b is at lower percents we can still be punished for this and even at higher percents they have better ability to DI out of this.

The surprise factor does help but the ability to DI Zard's Up-b makes this a kinda rough option especially in the case of MK. I deffinitly agree with testing this out, but as of right now I wanna test out F-tilt a bit more since dash shielding to f-tilt will work nicely since Zard's run speed is much better than his walk speed.

Also I'm starting to experiment with d-smash punishes and I'll post more later but I'd like to hear if anyone else is trying this has found major applications because I deffinitly have.

 

[T-block]

How fitting, considering when Charizard tries to roll past people, he ends up in front of them too =D

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, the thing is, it's not like we were gonna escape Tornado, anyway, and, worse comes to worst, we eat an F-Smash that does less damage than Tornado.

 

[Tesh]

Fsmash does less damage than tornado? If thats true then wouldn't he just nado you after you miss your Up B?

MK really isn't fair. His Up B functions exactly like Fly int he pokemon games and charizard gets....nothing.

 

[T-block]

Charizard with Shuttle Loop would be delicious x.x

My issue with using Fly to combat Tornado is that even if it does go through with the super armor, doesn't the hitlag make it really easy for MK to DI out of the final hit?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fsmash does less damage than tornado? If thats true then wouldn't he just nado you after you miss your Up B?

MK really isn't fair. His Up B functions exactly like Fly int he pokemon games and charizard gets....nothing.

Uncharged F-Smash does 15%. Mach Tornado can definitely deal more than that.

Also, it's better than Fly, because you're supposed to get hit after the attack is over.

 

[Tesh]

Shuttle loop with Charizard's Glide(attack) would probably still suck at LEAST as much as Marth's Up B when you miss.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

My issue with using Fly to combat Tornado is that even if it does go through with the super armor, doesn't the hitlag make it really easy for MK to DI out of the final hit?

I imagine we'll have to play around with the trajectory and get used to where the hitboxes are, but it's a lot better than just getting molested repeatedly. You can move up or sideways to change it up, after all.

 

[CoonTail]

Yea I understand what your saying Luis the concept of using Up-B to break Nado is a topic that leaves me wanting to say no that won't work. Truth is thought that dealing with nado is bad enough, if whether or not he can DI it is up to if the MK is a good enough player, so why not learn the hitboxes and trajectory and **** whatever MK does not expect it.

Up-B and F-tilt tipper breaking nado are two things I am very happy to think about and am deff gonna work on, but T-block I'm having a brain fart what is a true pivot???

Also guys seriously.....D-smash punish is a serious thing especially since I have been working on it OoS/powershield canceling whatever its called. The angle that d-smash sends them up at makes it perfect to harass them with U-air, U-tilt, and U-smash. If you powershield a falco laser closer up and he chooses to fire again the trade is entirely worth it!!

 

[Tesh]

The thing about nado is, MKs aren't going to approach you from an angle where you have great options. Tipper ftilt beating nado is kinda useless. And if you Up B and he DIs out, not only do you get re-nadoed or juggled, but you now have RCO lag if you ever make it past him.

Also from what I'm reading, by the time you would have gotten super armor from fly, you could have rock smash countered.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The thing about nado is, MKs aren't going to approach you from an angle where you have great options. Tipper ftilt beating nado is kinda useless. And if you Up B and he DIs out, not only do you get re-nadoed or juggled, but you now have RCO lag if you ever make it past him.

Also from what I'm reading, by the time you would have gotten super armor from fly, you could have rock smash countered.

Meta Knight are usually going to approach you where it's too high for F-Tilt to land, and unless you read him perfectly, you won't be able to jump -> Rock Smash him from there. Since he's above you, it would make sense to Up-B through it, especially since he'd have less time to react, as you're not hitting with the very beginning of it, in that case.

Also, unless Meta Knight is doing Mach Tornado very close to the ground, you'll have to jump with Rock Smash, which takes time and positioning that you won't always have. Fly can be done from the ground.

How often does Mach Tornado hit? As in, how many frames per hit? Perhaps we should check.

 

[Steeler]

pretty sure it hits once every frame that its active.

as in, frame whatever... hitboxes.

frame whatever +1... NEW hitboxes.

etc. >_>

think there may be a dead zone between the last normal hitbox and the final one with knockback but that is fairly irrelevant here.

usmash clashes and then loses, right? because aside from that, it'd be one of the best tornado killers in the game...

how much jump startup lag does zard have? whatever it is + 3 rock smash counter frames doesn't sound too bad...

 

[CoonTail]

The only problem is rock smash counter attack against tornado because of how it manages to break tornado. The tornado sets off the counter but then smart MK's can actually move away from rocksmash and the shrapnel gets negated. The spacing required is a real pain in the ***, along with the fact that one of the pieces of shrapnel have to connect into MK to stop nado.

I'm learned more and more how to deal with tornado and just the spacing it takes to get a RS counter to stop nado is pretty specific.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

pretty sure it hits once every frame that its active.

as in, frame whatever... hitboxes.

frame whatever +1... NEW hitboxes.

etc. >_>

think there may be a dead zone between the last normal hitbox and the final one with knockback but that is fairly irrelevant here.

usmash clashes and then loses, right? because aside from that, it'd be one of the best tornado killers in the game...

how much jump startup lag does zard have? whatever it is + 3 rock smash counter frames doesn't sound too bad...

It can't be that, because that whole "powershield-to-move" thing suggested that, say, Falco could grab Meta Knight out of it (assuming he was on the ground), and I think that trades with the Frame 6 grab, which means that it would hit every six frames. That means that we could do the same, or U-Smash in the same situation. It also means that Up-B might be useful if Meta Knight puts himself in just the right spot above you while you shield.

U-Smash doesn't work well because the hitbox isn't good at hitting where the tornado would be--

Frame 6 suggests that that wing would get hit before the higher hitboxes come out.

Also, Charizard has seven frames of jump start-up.

 

[Geenareeno]

So when does Zard's nair auto cancel? Between what frames? I really like nair but the landing lag is bad.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Just saying, I am a big fan of Fly, USmash, and DSmash. DSmash just has such surprising range, it catches people all the time. I've also caught people trying to chase Charizard offstage with Fly, killing them.

 

[CoonTail]

-Geen

Nair
Hit: 8-28
End: 59
Lagless End: 31
Landing Lag: 22
Hit Lag: 7(8)
Shield Stun: 10 (12)
Advantage: -48
Advantage (lagless): -20
Advantage Tip: -47
Advantage Tip (lagless): -19
*Note: Due to the extent of the hitbox, advantage can increase by 20 (i.e. ~0, +1)

Looks like it autocancels on 31, and yes it does auto cancel

-Supreme

I <3 D-smash because the range is impressive as hell especially when you catch someone right on the tip of the d-smash range. Also as I stated earlier D-smash leaves us with awesome followup options like U-tilt, U-smash, U-air so chasing after D-smash is solid.

D-smash is something I wish was looked into more like squirtles reverse shift

 

[Geenareeno]

There is sooo much lag though that you are guaranteed to be punished.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

N-Air and D-Air both go through platforms and can serve great purposes in doing so.

With a little practice, you can get both of them to autocancel while attacking through the platform, though it's situational with D-Air. The platform has to be a short distance from the ground; the easiest way to see it in action is to get between a side and center platform of Lylat Cruise (you'll be standing on what looks to be a jet engine) and immediate full-hop D-Air while moving toward the side platform.

Autocanceled aerials on a platform hits a lot of standing characters, and the worst-case scenario ends up being you shielding on the platform, so you can Up-B/U-Smash an aerial or N-Air again out of shield! They stuff a lot of the options that people would use to hit you from below. In that, it should be noted that a fullhop N-Air should autocancel, too, meaning that you can get to a platform safely if you put your back to the opponent.

Lylat Cruise appears to have the most potential for this. You can autocancel D-Air like I said before, but you can also jump from platform to platform with autocanceled N-Air. The ending hitbox is below and behind you, making it very safe from retaliation if you're trying to move away from the opponent. If the opponent tries to aim above your lowered tail, you can react and B-Air or turnaround Rock Smash, and fastfall airdodge becomes that much more useful when your opponent has to jump to platform level in order to have a chance of hitting you safely.

Between Flamethrower underneath platforms, this autocanceling stuff, and general good Charizard stuff (run speed, grab range, Rock Smash), I think this makes Lylat his best level, and it helps him a great deal on stages with platforms. Looks like Charizard appreciates platforms just as much as Ivysaur now.

 

[Kith]

N-Air and D-Air both go through platforms and can serve great purposes in doing so.

With a little practice, you can get both of them to autocancel while attacking through the platform, though it's situational with D-Air. The platform has to be a short distance from the ground; the easiest way to see it in action is to get between a side and center platform of Lylat Cruise (you'll be standing on what looks to be a jet engine) and immediate full-hop D-Air while moving toward the side platform.

Autocanceled aerials on a platform hits a lot of standing characters, and the worst-case scenario ends up being you shielding on the platform, so you can Up-B/U-Smash an aerial or N-Air again out of shield! They stuff a lot of the options that people would use to hit you from below. In that, it should be noted that a fullhop N-Air should autocancel, too, meaning that you can get to a platform safely if you put your back to the opponent.

Lylat Cruise appears to have the most potential for this. You can autocancel D-Air like I said before, but you can also jump from platform to platform with autocanceled N-Air. The ending hitbox is below and behind you, making it very safe from retaliation if you're trying to move away from the opponent. If the opponent tries to aim above your lowered tail, you can react and B-Air or turnaround Rock Smash, and fastfall airdodge becomes that much more useful when your opponent has to jump to platform level in order to have a chance of hitting you safely.

Between Flamethrower underneath platforms, this autocanceling stuff, and general good Charizard stuff (run speed, grab range, Rock Smash), I think this makes Lylat his best level, and it helps him a great deal on stages with platforms. Looks like Charizard appreciates platforms just as much as Ivysaur now.

I guess I need to practice this more then. I've always been of the mindset that I should avoid platforms as Charizard, seeing as how he has such a huge weak point under him.

 

[CoonTail]

See the problem with that mentality Kith is that it makes player's not realize that unless your opponents options have hitboxes that are very large as MK or Marth (U-air mainly), then Zard is only to be worried when he is directly above someone on a platform.

Otherwise I am not fearful of platforms with Zard because like I said unless they are directly underneath me I still have enough options for Zard not to get juggled to high %.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm not necessarily of the mind that we should just hang out on platforms all the time. I'm just saying that this really helps with preventing juggles and with fighting around platforms. This makes Charizard one of the only characters who can approach most characters from above when they're under a platform, as well as being good at defending himself from a platform, since he can attack through them without being laggy and unsafe.

I'd also like to note that this creates a lot of mix-ups against characters who are around platforms. Fullhop D-Air over a Battlefield platform is very laggy, but it hits almost all standing characters (I'm not sure who the shortest is, but it does hit Meta Knight) and it hits hard. Since fullhop N-Air autocancels, it's much safer, and it means that we can probably get away with laggy D-Air every now and again due to the threat of our shielding after what could be a N-Air.

After a N-Air, we can drop through the platform and B-Air immediately after we land on the platform, which, when well-spaced, is safe, and can catch people off-guard who try to hit us after the N-Air is over.

If we have space on a platform, we can dash away from the opponent under us and then B-Reverse Rock Smash out of the run to counter an aerial approach. If we don't have space, we can run off the platform and still B-Reverse Rock Smash or Flamethrower, and that's probably safer than the former suggestion.