Charizard Tactical Discussion

[Tesh]

Is there any way I can make sure both hits land when I hyphen upsmash? It seems like 9 times out of 10 the 2nd hit just misses at kill percents. Then I upsmash a couple more times and its too stale. Should I be reversing it and landing only the 2nd hit? Or should I come to a complete stop before trying to upsmash?

It feels as bad as ganon's dsmash really.

 

[Magik0722]

Upsmash is easily SDIable

 

[Zigsta]

It's best to come to a complete stop.

 

[Steeler]

shield and immediately jump cancel it to reduce the chance that it happens

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

dont afraid of nothing

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm working on double-jump N-Air to beat Mach Tornado. You can get the flame to hit the top of it.

 

[DanGR]

I'm working on double-jump N-Air to beat Mach Tornado. You can get the flame to hit the top of it.

What happens when they see you double jump?

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Reflex just Ftilt... or Bair.

Yo creo eso.

Estoy seguro.


I reallly enjoy watching you play reflex.



BTW

 

[Geenareeno]

Isn't flamethrower the best way to stop tornado?

 

[DanGR]

Tornado>flamethrower

 

[Tesh]

What about tornado rock smash?

 

[Steeler]

rock smash is difficult to position sometimes, but it can work.

 

[T-block]

Tornado will go through Flamethrower if it's not grounded.

Rock Smash can work, and I think full hop b-air as well.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Ftilt beats tornado......

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Been Experimenting on Charizard's Full Hop Dair on Tall opponents on the ground, liking the results so far.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Not sure if anyone has discovered this yet or if it's even worth mentioning, but Charizard has a "shellstall" like Squirtle's, except that it's really just him stopping midpivot and looking really awesome.

Whether or not Ivy can do this is not to my knowledge, but I didn't attempt it.

Just thought it was cool to mention.

 

[Steeler]

yeah, i don't understand why it takes him so long to turn around though since he's flying/hovering in the air

 

[T-block]

I didn't know he could actually stall, but I abuse his pivot animation all the time, like with Squirtle.

I'll try it out next time I'm on - is it the same inputs as for Squirtle?

 

[marthsword]

I've been testing out gliding for recovery in an attempt to mix things up. So far I'm hardly ever punished for it, when sweetspotting or glide attacking. Do you think there's any reward or is Fly always the better option?

Also, I'm finding down throw to occasionally be good spacing for a rock smash.

 

[Ingoro]

I think the knockback of Dthrow prevents it to succesfully hit a rock smash, besides 6% damage isn't much. For recovery I mostly use my first jump to glide closer to the stage, place myself best possibly to go up with Fly. Glide attack should normally be used for glide cancelling.

 

[T-block]

Assuming your opponent has any experience at all in the matchup, d-throw should literally only be used at very high percents (180%+ usually) to KO, or high percents to get a switch. At any other time, the other throws do more damage, and give you more certainty in trajectory.

The problem with glide is that it's so slow, and Charizard is such a big target, that any character with a good edgeguarding game is probably going to be able to intercept you. Mixing things up is good, but in most circumstances, your opponent is going to be able to react and respond to the glide in time.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I didn't know he could actually stall, but I abuse his pivot animation all the time, like with Squirtle.

I'll try it out next time I'm on - is it the same inputs as for Squirtle?

Yeah, you literally do the exact same thing you would do to perform a shellstall, but with Charizard. I've been using it somewhat, but it's not as effective as shellstall just because Zard is inherently bigger and probably isn't going to gain much from it anyways.

He still looks like a G when you do it, though.

 

[bigman40]

Do people use Zard's DACUS? I've never seen anyone use it before and since it's exactly like Yoshi's DACUS, I would have hoped people would sparingly use it to space and bait.

 

[T-block]

K I'm not gonna lie, I didn't know Zard had a noticeable DACUS.

How far does he slide?

 

[bigman40]

It's not a slide. It stops his momentum completely. I've used this with Yoshi to bait grabs when people want to stop me from charging at them or to bait rolls. Seeing as how Zard has a much bigger and quicker hitbox out than Yoshi's, you can apply this in more places than Yoshi can.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's not a slide. It stops his momentum completely. I've used this with Yoshi to bait grabs when people want to stop me from charging at them or to bait rolls. Seeing as how Zard has a much bigger and quicker hitbox out than Yoshi's, you can apply this in more places than Yoshi can.

Wait, what?

This sounds awesome. If it stops Charizard completely, this could be what prevents U-Smash from whiffing on the second hit so often. I'm gonna mess around with it.

 

[bigman40]

Yeah, I noticed it when I was messing with him Sunday night. This has good applications since I believe it would definitely reduce the amount of times you whiff on the second hit since you aren't moving.

I was gonna IM you about it, but you were sleep that morning. xD

 

[T-block]

Oh I see lol... that makes a lot of sense, and it definitely sounds useful.

 

[@TKbreezy]

well couldnt you just shield cancel upsmash?


also Bunny hop -> Fsmash...the future of Charizard...vids soon

 

[bigman40]

You'll still slide a little with that.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Pivot Upsmash Imo

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was in the shower and I thought about this--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE8m5dxWxXs

tl;dr: You can SDI if your shield is hit. That being said, I was wondering what kind of use this might have.

Marth players like to do ledgedrop F-Air -> Up-B. If you time it right, we should be able to SDI off the ledge and D-Air before the F-Air ends (Marth's F-Air has 32 frames of animation).

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Is there any way Ike can avoid being attacked if he aethers your shield?

Wait, maybe I should ask that in the Ike boards lol.

 

[Steeler]

I was in the shower and I thought about this--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE8m5dxWxXs

tl;dr: You can SDI if your shield is hit. That being said, I was wondering what kind of use this might have.

Marth players like to do ledgedrop F-Air -> Up-B. If you time it right, we should be able to SDI off the ledge and D-Air before the F-Air ends (Marth's F-Air has 32 frames of animation).

the difference between these two examples is that you know exactly when the aether is coming and since there's multiple hits, i imagine you have a lot more leeway. with marth fair, not only do you only have one hit to SDI with but the move itself is very fast and marth can mix the timing up. additionally, the fact that ike hovers at the apex of aether for quite a while makes it a lot easier to hit him. marth will be fastfalling downward...not sure if that'd make it significantly harder to hit but i'd imagine so.

it sounds like **** but even if it does work, the tech skill and prediction needed to pull it off is...out there, to say the least.

but yeah, ivy dair out of this would be amazing...too bad the sourspot is absolute balls. zard fair/bair would be amazing out of this too.

@nameless wanderer, ike can aim the aether so that his apex is as low as possible or aim the sword forward and then pull it back as ike is about to grab it...but i think he can still get hit. it only makes it a bit trickier.

 

[T-block]

I think Steeler has it right on this one... plus, how are you going to get close enough to the ledge so that one shield SDI input will put you over the ledge? Even with Charizard's dash speed, I doubt it could be done reliably.

 

[Ingoro]

This sounds insanely hard to repeatetly pull off.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

At least 95% of people I've played refuse to get off of the ledge at any time outside of the first possible frame; same with the following attack. Also, it's not like it's something that happens to Marth players often. Most attacks could probably be avoided via a fastfall as Marth, but Charizard's ridiculous range on D-Air helps here.

Coming from the ledge to the stage is actually fairly difficult in general in Brawl, so it's not uncommon to see Marth snap to the ledge more than once. If his midair jump won't reach the ledge, you know he has to get to the ledge, so you can dash to it and shield at the edge.

At worst, you'll roll toward him, probably avoiding anything but a well-timed Up-B back to the ledge, dealing ~5%. If he tries to get sneaky and wait before attacking, couldn't you just...hit him? I think this could be a reasonable mix-up.

 

[Ingoro]

Don't a lot of marths releasse the edge, fair, 2nd jump back to the ledge? They do this in general when people get to close to the edge, I think every single olimar uses: releasse, uair, upb. This could result into "Punish the attempted Punish"

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As far as I can tell, Marth players drop down when they F-Air. If they have enough height to grab the ledge with only their mid-air jump, that would leave them vulnerable to other stuff, like down-angled F-Tilt and short-hop D-Air from the stage.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yeah, Marth's generally fastfall fair > upb back.

Shield SDI is pretty hard though :/