Character Rankings List - Post-March 2010

[Ken Neth]

Wasn't there also a tourney before APEX that M2K won? I remember Ally being all hyped up and then getting owned or something.

Edit: Gheb beat me to it.

 

[Kirk]

ISA Presents: Smash Orientation 2009
46 Entrants(I think)
$10 Entry Fee
Indianapolis, Indiana

1. Lain (Ice Climbers)
2. Capem (Metaknight)
3. Kel (Metaknight)
4. Kirk (Ike/Random)
5. Overswarm (Metaknight/ROB)
5. Arty (Falco/Luigi)
7. Lou (Game & Watch)
7. Y.b.M. (Kirby)

Tournament Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239788
Results Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247037

 

[Luigi player]

Whoops, seems like I have no idea what has happened between them.

I wonder if M2K used Dedede at RTVC... but I guess not, because he isn't listed...

 

[Flayl]

ISA Presents: Smash Orientation 2009
46 Entrants(I think)
$10 Entry Fee
Indianapolis, Indiana

1. Lain (Ice Climbers)
2. Capem (Metaknight)
3. Kel (Metaknight)
4. Kirk (Ike/Random)
5. Overswarm (Metaknight/ROB)
5. Arty (Falco/Luigi)
7. Lou (Game & Watch)
7. Y.b.M. (Kirby)

Tournament Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239788
Results Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247037

How does this work in terms of points: Does Ike get full credit, does he just get half credit and the other half is wasted, or no credit at all?

 

[Kirk]

Well, I essentially used Ike about 75% of the time...the other matches were just a variety of other characters...used for only 1 game or at the most 2. Perhaps those shouldn't get any credit at all? I'm not sure myself...

 

[King~]

Step Yo Game up Cleveland 6
18 entrants
10$
8/29/09
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247027

1.Blue Rogue(Wario)
2.Byaa!(Metaknight)
3.Argentstew(Lucario)
4.Ithrowthings(Sonic)
5.BBoy(Diddy/MK)
5.SFG(MK/Snake)
7.King Yoshi(Pikachu/MK)
7.King Beef(Peach)

 

[smash64]

Place: 2nd
Style: doubles
Date: 8/29/09
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Size: 46
Name: ISA Presents: Smash Orientation 2009
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247037
Other Characters: Ness all the way



Place: 9th
Style: singles
Date: 8/29/09
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Size: 46
Name: ISA Presents: Smash Orientation 2009
Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247037
Other Characters: Ness all the way

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea.... tourney result dont really work that way here guy...


maybe thats the format for the ness board results, but here in the general tourney thread its a different format, look at the other results on the page to get the correct way to do it

 

[Flayl]

Either wrong thread or clear disrespect for Ankoku, either way please look at the post immediately above yours for the correct way to provide results. Also this list does not include doubles.

edit: i'm too slow

 

[smash64]

lol silly me ill edit later

 

[MidnightAsaph]

I'll do it for u =P

Oh, god, I forgot I entered for a minute there. >_< Thanks a bunch.

 

[zeldspazz]

A better question to ask would be "why not?"

I slept on that debate last night, and I finally realized that the two should never be separated, only by scrubs who don't want to learn two movesets/how to use Down-Bs are they ever apart.

*A little late*

K, this was a bit ignorant to say. I main only Zelda because I dont like Sheik's playstyle and Im not very good at using her. The point is you can successfully use both characters without the help of the other, so having them only listed as the same character is not right imo. Just because I dont want to use Sheik doesnt mean Im a total scrub. I was thinking having 1 for pure Zelda's, one for pure Sheiks, and one for Dual Mainers.

 

[Dido]

stupid meta night! he so anoying!

 

[Zankoku]

*A little late*

K, this was a bit ignorant to say. I main only Zelda because I dont like Sheik's playstyle and Im not very good at using her. The point is you can successfully use both characters without the help of the other, so having them only listed as the same character is not right imo. Just because I dont want to use Sheik doesnt mean Im a total scrub. I was thinking having 1 for pure Zelda's, one for pure Sheiks, and one for Dual Mainers.

Yeah, I used to do this. You'd be surprised at how bad the scores are for the characters when it's split in three. I was rather amused when Zelda/Sheik was above Zelda solo, though.

 

[zeldspazz]

Yeah, I used to do this. You'd be surprised at how bad the scores are for the characters when it's split in three. I was rather amused when Zelda/Sheik was above Zelda solo, though.

In my opinion, and some others in the Zelda and Sheik boards, Zelda/Sheik using Zelda and Sheik together is more tourney viable than solo Sheik, and by far solo Zelda. Im really not surprised by that fact. Im sure people like Successor of Raph. could explain why if you asked him, not that care

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, but that wasn't reflected in the list with Sheik somewhere up there, and Zelda/Sheik a little above Zelda all the way in E. Like you're saying, I was expecting Zelda/Sheik somewhere above the two solo characters, but it never happened because the solo characters were played more often... and Zelda was still below the dual, inexplicably.

Basically with the way things are going, and with the already low rate of appearance of Zelda or Sheik players, separating them into three entries would lead to nothing helpful in terms of accuracy in rankings.

 

[zeldspazz]

Its true.

Underrep ***** some characters that could have a shot at viability.
Might as well make my character look better than worse lol

 

[Shaya]

"YOU'RE TOO GOODS, OATS PRO!"
23rd of August, 2009
Sydney, Australia
36 Entrants
$15 Entry
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8202629&postcount=3863

1. Tedeth (Wolf/Wario)
2. Attila (Snake/Ice Climbers)
3. Shaya (Marth/King Dedede)
4. D0N (Donkey Kong)
5. Tibs (Diddy Kong)
5. Luke (Snake)
7. Cao (Peach)
7. Liam (Donkey Kong)

vroom vrroom?

 

[Nefarious B]

Its true.

Underrep ***** some characters that could have a shot at viability.

You should probably just stop using the word viability because you LOVE to misuse it. Seriously, a character being viable has nothing to do with rep. Ankoku's list is good for show you centralization of the metagame, not necessarily viability (though the two are linked).

 

[zeldspazz]

You should probably just stop using the word viability because you LOVE to misuse it. Seriously, a character being viable has nothing to do with rep. Ankoku's list is good for show you centralization of the metagame, not necessarily viability (though the two are linked).

Go read what Onishiba wrote in the tier list discussion about Sheila. Together Zelda and Sheik have practically no bad matchups since they for the most part cover each other's bad ones. Sheik can get in people faces and rack up damage fast, and in time Im positive she will rise to B tier or higher. At KO percentages Sheik switches and all of Zelda's moves are fresh for the kill, and they kill well. They are viable, and yes, underrep plays a role if there are no people showing their true potentional, because then their metagame makes little progress and tourney results reflect little achievement.

 

[Tien2500]

They're both 35:65 against Olimar according to their matchup threads. MK is tough for both of them. (Much moreso for Zelda than Sheik obviously). They're also both disadvantaged against Snake and Marth and I think ROB. There are probably a couple of others but I can't say as the matchup threads are incomplete. Switching can help in some matchups (namely the ones where Zelda is not outcampedor overwhelmed) but I think even as a team they're a bit lacking.

Sheik should be higher on her own and the two together would be a little bit higher than that but I don't think they're viable. They can probably win some smaller tournaments but I don't think we'll see them placing well in larger scaled tournaments.

But I really like Zelda as a character so good luck in proving me wrong .

 

[Nefarious B]

That's not at all what I'm talking about. Viability has to do with a character's potential to place well in a meaningful tournament. That doesn't really have to do with this list at all. Just because a character has tons of mains placing doesn't mean that any of them could do well in a meaningful tournament. Though obviously, having more mains does progress the meta faster, that is the only benefit of having more rep in relations to viability.

And I did read all that Sheik/Zelda talk, and to be honest until you find a way to switch midfight without getting punished, it's still just theorycraft.

 

[zeldspazz]

They're both 35:65 against Olimar according to their matchup threads. MK is tough for both of them. (Much moreso for Zelda than Sheik obviously). They're also both disadvantaged against Snake and Marth and I think ROB. There are probably a couple of others but I can't say as the matchup threads are incomplete. Switching can help in some matchups (namely the ones where Zelda is not outcampedor overwhelmed) but I think even as a team they're a bit lacking.

Sheik should be higher on her own and the two together would be a little bit higher than that but I don't think they're viable. They can probably win some smaller tournaments but I don't think we'll see them placing well in larger scaled tournaments.

But I really like Zelda as a character so good luck in proving me wrong .

Ok

1) I didnt say they didnt have their bad matchups. You have to remember though, just being at a disadvantage doesnt mean "bad" 40-60 is completely winnable. Also, you cant really go off of the matchup threads from both character boards, since utilizing Sheila is way different than using either of those characters. Im sure there are some matchups that you can certainly add 5-10 points in Sheila's direction.

2) Zelda goes at least even, or slight advantage against ROB, although we have yet to do that rediscussion. Sheik and Zelda together makes the Snake matchup much easier, since Zelda's main problems and Sheiks main problems are both covered when using both at the correct times.

3) Lets think for a sec though. You said Sheik on her own should be a little higher than she is now. That puts her B tier, correct? And then you say Sheila should be a little higher still. That puts her high B (if Sheiks not there aleady) or bottom of A. Oh what do you know? A tiers are considered viable.

4) Yeah, large scale tournies will be a toughy, I have to admit. But really, there arent that many that can make it far anyway, but there are some who are still considered tourney viable (eg low A tier or so) but wont really make it to the tip top of any large scale tourney. If I thought so, I would being saying "SHEILA FO TOP TIER!" but Im not. Im simply saying viable, like in comparison to Jiggs in melee lets say.

 

[Tien2500]

Ok

1) I didnt say they didnt have their bad matchups. You have to remember though, just being at a disadvantage doesnt mean "bad" 40-60 is completely winnable. Also, you cant really go off of the matchup threads from both character boards, since utilizing Sheila is way different than using either of those characters. Im sure there are some matchups that you can certainly add 5-10 points in Sheila's direction.

I misunderstood what you meant by bad matchup. My mistake. Some matchups can be shifted by Sheila by 10 points but I don't think it will in many of the important ones.

2) Zelda goes at least even, or slight advantage against ROB, although we have yet to do that rediscussion. Sheik and Zelda together makes the Snake matchup much easier, since Zelda's main problems and Sheiks main problems are both covered when using both at the correct times.

Ok. My mistake. I disagree about the Snake matchup though. I don't think using Zelda to KO will work that well because of Snake's strong camp game and Zelda's approach.

3) Lets think for a sec though. You said Sheik on her own should be a little higher than she is now. That puts her B tier, correct? And then you say Sheila should be a little higher still. That puts her high B (if Sheiks not there aleady) or bottom of A. Oh what do you know? A tiers are considered viable.

Not really. Sheik is currently at the bottom of Ctier. So "a bit higher" doesn't necessarily mean B tier. It could also mean mid C which is more what I had in mind. As for Shiela I was thinking more along the lines of top of C maybe low B. I definitely didn't mean A.

4) Yeah, large scale tournies will be a toughy, I have to admit. But really, there arent that many that can make it far anyway, but there are some who are still considered tourney viable (eg low A tier or so) but wont really make it to the tip top of any large scale tourney. If I thought so, I would being saying "SHEILA FO TOP TIER!" but Im not. Im simply saying viable, like in comparison to Jiggs in melee lets say.

I guess we're talking about different things when we say viable then.

 

[zeldspazz]

I misunderstood what you meant by bad matchup. My mistake. Some matchups can be shifted by Sheila by 10 points but I don't think it will in many of the important ones.

Honestly, neither of us can make that call cus we dont have a thread for Sheila matchup



Ok. My mistake. I disagree about the Snake matchup though. I don't think using Zelda to KO will work that well because of Snake's strong camp game and Zelda's approach.

A smart Sheik is not switching until Snake gets to about 110-120%. At that point, especially since all Zelda's moves are fresh, Zelda is going to be killing with one move, whether it be bair, uair, fsmash, whatever. The key to playing as Zelda against Snake is to try to bait the ftilt and punish with Fsmash, and honetly since many Snake's mindsets are "Ftilt is spammable and awesome" its not that hard. Obviously getting him into the air is a good tihng, but Im guessing thats obvious.



Not really. Sheik is currently at the bottom of Ctier. So "a bit higher" doesn't necessarily mean B tier. It could also mean mid C which is more what I had in mind. As for Shiela I was thinking more along the lines of top of C maybe low B. I definitely didn't mean A.

Different views are different. Again, non of this are put into affect, so idk what would happen until it does.



I guess we're talking about different things when we say viable then.

Maybe Im the one confused, but Ive heard ZSS, Lucario, and the likes all being refered to as "viable".

My responses in red.

 

[Tien2500]

No doubt that switching to Zelda would be good against a mediocre Snake player. But against a good one I'm not so sure. They won't be as easily baited into Ftilt and I still think they could just sit back and lob grenades. What would Zelda do against a campy Snake? Also if Sheik has a safe switch opportunity it would most likely be because she knocked Snake off the stage and in that case I think it would be better to simply go for the gimp as Sheik.

ZSS and Lucario are right on the border of B and A tier so they're also on the edge of what is considered viable. Personally I think ZSS can be viable or at least is very close and can be viable with a secondary to cover Falco if need be. I don't really know enough about Lucario to judge but those are the only two characters I've heard seriously discussed as viable from B tier. Of course you have the random person claiming that Yoshi can win big tournaments or something like that.

 

[Deleted member]

Im pretty sure zelda can out camp snake at long range
Dins blows up grenades, longer range, can move in front of him and can basically punish his movements, and if dins connects snakes gonna be in a bad position.
Also, zeldas nair is a pretty solid approach, even though its basically her only good one, it can be pretty nasty if used smartly.

I dunno how that matchup goes, i dont play zelda much, buttttt thats just my insight.

 

[Tien2500]

Im pretty sure zelda can out camp snake at long range
Dins blows up grenades, longer range, can move in front of him and can basically punish his movements, and if dins connects snakes gonna be in a bad position.
Also, zeldas nair is a pretty solid approach, even though its basically her only good one, it can be pretty nasty if used smartly.

I dunno how that matchup goes, i dont play zelda much, buttttt thats just my insight.

Most Zelda mains seem to be in agreement that Din's fire isn't useful to camp. Its too predictable. Snake's grenades are a better camping tool. Zelda's nair doesn't have enough range to safely approach Snake. I'm pretty sure he can punish it without too much trouble.

If Din's does hit at a high enough percentage though Snake might be in trouble with his crap air game. The question is does this method hold any benefit over going for the KO with Sheik or will you take too much damage in the process to make it worthwhile?

 

[zeldspazz]

No doubt that switching to Zelda would be good against a mediocre Snake player. But against a good one I'm not so sure. They won't be as easily baited into Ftilt and I still think they could just sit back and lob grenades. What would Zelda do against a campy Snake? Also if Sheik has a safe switch opportunity it would most likely be because she knocked Snake off the stage and in that case I think it would be better to simply go for the gimp as Sheik.

ZSS and Lucario are right on the border of B and A tier so they're also on the edge of what is considered viable. Personally I think ZSS can be viable or at least is very close and can be viable with a secondary to cover Falco if need be. I don't really know enough about Lucario to judge but those are the only two characters I've heard seriously discussed as viable from B tier. Of course you have the random person claiming that Yoshi can win big tournaments or something like that.

Yes you are a fun person to have a discussion with I must say About your Snake and Zelda sitiation. Well, Im sure if more effort was put into it, then there would be plenty of ways to switch safely. However, at the moment I know Sheila mains generally see where the opposing character feels uncomfortable going on the stage, and generally tries to do it there. For example, Snake is weaker in the air and off stage. So, Sheik would simply have to jump offstage, transform to Zelda, and then recover back. Now, obviously its going to take some time to figure out where exactly you're aiming to go in order to transform in the most efficient fashion, but thats all part of the learning curve, it takes time to master as it should. Also, remember its not just the Snake that is an outstanding player when discussing this. Zelda is also an outstanding player (remember Im talking player, not character) therefore simply "lobbing nades" because an outstanding Zelda can get around that with some effort. All Zelda needs is one mistake, one thing to punish, and bam, Snake's dead. Switch to Sheik in between lives.

Now about viability, around where ZSS and Lucario are on the list is about where I picture Sheila, maybe 1-2 spaces higher. And also, Sheila can have a secondary as well as ZSS can, since technically Sheila is 1 character. So, she can have that secondary to handle Olimar and Marth, where she is lacking in matchup advantages greatly. So, basically if we are comparing viability between ZSS and Sheila, Im tihnking they are about the same. At lol, Yoshi is top tier and you know it


Edit (looking at above): Dins sucks. Its the truth. It can in no way shape or form outcamp Snake. However, since Dins does pop Snake up, one hit can mean a free uair if strategized. Other than that, not much coming out of this matchup. Nair is also a medicore approach due to its property in the top of the body, leaving none for the feet, and its poor range. It is her only aerial approach though, so it is used at times. Just not against Snake cus utilt is ****.

I believe that this method is by far a greater option, since Sheik will most defidently not be killing Snake until about 140-150% or higher unless she gets a perfect sweetspot on her Usmash. Then again, seeing this in action in repitition would give us a much better view of the situation

 

[da K.I.D.]

two things id like ot note,

1. if you have to strategize it, its really not a free up air, now is it?

2. can we please stop talking about zelda, shes really bad

 

[Browny]

umm, did this update include that OUGA back to school tourney?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244476

I thought I linked it twice ankoku... It just seems like Sonic should have more points after that one

 

[zeldspazz]

We're talking about Sheila, who is not really bad

And I suppose your right about Dins->uair, its just the only possible thing I can think of where it could be of any use against Snake (or any character for that matter)

 

[Deleted member]

Most Zelda mains seem to be in agreement that Din's fire isn't useful to camp. Its too predictable. Snake's grenades are a better camping tool. Zelda's nair doesn't have enough range to safely approach Snake. I'm pretty sure he can punish it without too much trouble.

If Din's does hit at a high enough percentage though Snake might be in trouble with his crap air game. The question is does this method hold any benefit over going for the KO with Sheik or will you take too much damage in the process to make it worthwhile?

ITs not useful for camping in the sense that its not hard to approach.
HOWEVER, it beats snakes grenades camping and im pretty sure about this.
It blows up nades, so u cant cook, and snake will have to approach.
Its not that hard for him, but it puts him at risk.

Honestly, zelda isnt quite that bad where she cant camp or approach.

 

[zeldspazz]

ITs not useful for camping in the sense that its not hard to approach.
HOWEVER, it beats snakes grenades camping and im pretty sure about this.
It blows up nades, so u cant cook, and snake will have to approach.
Its not that hard for him, but it puts him at risk.

Honestly, zelda isnt quite that bad where she cant camp or approach.

Sorry, but your wrong. Dins doesnt outcamp any decent projectile, grandes are no execption. And Zelda is bad enough where she cant camp or approach. At least she can kill xD

 

[thesage]

What we should be discussing is why Ness is in C tier. Lolwtf the way this thread counts tournaments needs to be revised or something lmao.

 

[zeldspazz]

What we should be discussing is why Ness is in C tier. Lolwtf the way this thread counts tournaments needs to be revised or something lmao.

Lol you noticed that too huh

Btw sorry Ank., I just realized how offtopic this thread was for a bit there.

 

[Tien2500]

Yes you are a fun person to have a discussion with I must say

Glad you're enjoying the conversation. I am as well. Smash can actually be fun to talk about when people calm down a bit

About your Snake and Zelda sitiation. Well, Im sure if more effort was put into it, then there would be plenty of ways to switch safely. However, at the moment I know Sheila mains generally see where the opposing character feels uncomfortable going on the stage, and generally tries to do it there. For example, Snake is weaker in the air and off stage. So, Sheik would simply have to jump offstage, transform to Zelda, and then recover back. Now, obviously its going to take some time to figure out where exactly you're aiming to go in order to transform in the most efficient fashion, but thats all part of the learning curve, it takes time to master as it should.

I honestly keep forgetting Zelda can change midair. I play PT a lot and they can't . It would make things much easier. But anyway I get what you're saying in general but in the specific situation I disagree. Snake's Bair and Uair have such long duration that they could punish easily. What moves does sheik have that really give a switch opportunity? All I could think of is F and Dsmash. Possibly Bair/fair if they're by an edge.

Also, remember its not just the Snake that is an outstanding player when discussing this. Zelda is also an outstanding player (remember Im talking player, not character) therefore simply "lobbing nades" because an outstanding Zelda can get around that with some effort. All Zelda needs is one mistake, one thing to punish, and bam, Snake's dead. Switch to Sheik in between lives.

That's a fair point. I'm not saying that Snake will never ever approach/mess up and get KOed because eventually he will. But I think that the damage he can deal outweighs or at least neutralizes the benefits of switching in the first place.

Now about viability, around where ZSS and Lucario are on the list is about where I picture Sheila, maybe 1-2 spaces higher. And also, Sheila can have a secondary as well as ZSS can, since technically Sheila is 1 character. So, she can have that secondary to handle Olimar and Marth, where she is lacking in matchup advantages greatly. So, basically if we are comparing viability between ZSS and Sheila, Im tihnking they are about the same. At lol, Yoshi is top tier and you know it

I honestly don't see Shiela as being on Lucario or ZSS' level yet alone above them, in the current metagame. Maybe if the metagames develop further but definitely not right now.

As for getting a secondary of course you can but whereas ZSS only needs to cover one matchup I think Shelda's might need to cover a bit more. ZSS only really has Falco and even thats not totally unwinnable with the right stages. Similarly most of ZSS' 40:60s (Diddy/ICs are the only ones that come to mind in the high tiers) can be swung to her advantage on her counterpicks. (I think Diddy/IC's/Falco are all to ZSS' advantage on RC or Brinstar.) Whereas I don't think Zelda and Sheik have any stages that change a matchup for them that drastically.

Also a secondary for Shelda also means that you have to play three different characters at a pretty fairly high level which is naturally harder than two.

Edit (looking at above): Dins sucks. Its the truth. It can in no way shape or form outcamp Snake. However, since Dins does pop Snake up, one hit can mean a free uair if strategized. Other than that, not much coming out of this matchup. Nair is also a medicore approach due to its property in the top of the body, leaving none for the feet, and its poor range. It is her only aerial approach though, so it is used at times. Just not against Snake cus utilt is ****.

I believe that this method is by far a greater option, since Sheik will most defidently not be killing Snake until about 140-150% or higher unless she gets a perfect sweetspot on her Usmash. Then again, seeing this in action in repitition would give us a much better view of the situation

Lol. I remember way back when everyone was so psyched about Din's buffs. I think Sheik can KO Snake at about 120ish. Obviously not a straight up KO but fair /fresh bair should be able to gimp Snake out of his cypher.

Edit: Back on topic... As you get lower on the list the characters are used so seldomly that one really good main can skew the results big time. Like Reflex does for trainer and in this case I'd guess FOW explains Ness' high ranking.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate to argue with a zelda main, but ive played a few veryy good zeldas, and i would like to ask, how exactly does snake out camp zelda, when dins blows up grenades, and does more damage to his shield.
Also, i hate to involve baits, but technically zelda cant do anything in any matchup, which is where baits come into play.

Also, as a zelda main, you sure seem pessimistic.
Zelda is a pretty decent character for such a bad character :D

 

[zeldspazz]

Glad you're enjoying the conversation. I am as well. Smash can actually be fun to talk about when people calm down a bit

Indeed

I honestly keep forgetting Zelda can change midair. I play PT a lot and they can't . It would make things much easier. But anyway I get what you're saying in general but in the specific situation I disagree. Snake's Bair and Uair have such long duration that they could punish easily. What moves does sheik have that really give a switch opportunity? All I could think of is F and Dsmash. Possibly Bair/fair if they're by an edge.

Well, I mean its all depends on the situation your currently in, and Im sure that different people would have different views. How I would go about it is trying to hit Snake off the stage with say Dsmash, Fsmash, or fair. Then, since Sheik is a fast runner, I would go to the other side of the stage, jump off, and transform. This gives Sheik a lot of time to transform, and since Snake is slow on both ground and in air, there isnt much he can do to punish it. It also helps that the duration of transform differs from very short to very long, making it impossible to predict the cooldown lag.

That's a fair point. I'm not saying that Snake will never ever approach/mess up and get KOed because eventually he will. But I think that the damage he can deal outweighs or at least neutralizes the benefits of switching in the first place.

See, and this is the thing thats so weird about discussing this cus it really is player dependant. If I was to ever try out Sheila, I would always be a bit more comfortable with Zelda more than Sheik, becuase she fits my playstyle more and I obviously use her more at this point. So, I honestly think that I would have a much easier time switching and getting the KO, then getting Snake to 150 and then trying for the KO. Others would swing the other way, saying that they'd go all Sheik for this matchup. For this very reason is why Sheila has so much potential, because there is this flexibility that can fit the player, and even if you dont use Zelda for this matchup, youll certainly be using her for matchups such as King Dedede, Pikachu, Iceclimbers, etc.

I honestly don't see Shiela as being on Lucario or ZSS' level yet alone above them, in the current metagame. Maybe if the metagames develop further but definitely not right now.

I couldnt agree more, but remember that Sheila is a very very underused and overthought character, so if she was brought to the scene and researched, Im sure more could come of her. Also, Sheik alone isnt that far from ZSS and Lucario though, so dont think that they couldnt even stand a chance. Just not enough of one.

As for getting a secondary of course you can but whereas ZSS only needs to cover one matchup I think Shelda's might need to cover a bit more. ZSS only really has Falco and even thats not totally unwinnable with the right stages. Similarly most of ZSS' 40:60s (Diddy/ICs are the only ones that come to mind in the high tiers) can be swung to her advantage on her counterpicks. (I think Diddy/IC's/Falco are all to ZSS' advantage on RC or Brinstar.) Whereas I don't think Zelda and Sheik have any stages that change a matchup for them that drastically.

Also a secondary for Shelda also means that you have to play three different characters at a pretty fairly high level which is naturally harder than two.

Now remember, matchup ratios are bit...weird as of now discussing Sheila since the numbers are going to swing her direction a tad bit once both are pulled into the same match. Now, going over the matchups, Im pretty sure the only ones they are having trouble with are Olimar and Marth. And actually, its funny you mention counterpicks, cus I just made a counterpick thread in the Zelda Boards thats just starting up. Im just going to put out there that Battfield is an outstanding Zelda stage for many reasons, and will swing a one or 2 in her direction also. For Sheik, Im not sure, for I dont main Sheik thus lack the knowledge of counterpicking. Also, ZSS has a higher learning curve than both Zelda and Sheik, so it may be just hard to main ZSS and a secondary as Sheila and a secondary.

Lol. I remember way back when everyone was so psyched about Din's buffs. I think Sheik can KO Snake at about 120ish. Obviously not a straight up KO but fair /fresh bair should be able to gimp Snake out of his cypher.

Zelda can KO Snake out of his cypher with all her aerials except nair when put in the same position as Sheik, so Zelda is still a better option in my eyes.


@burnsocks: Because Dins is extremely slow and laggy. Basically when put into this scenario, Snake will pull out a grenade, Zelda will start Dins. As Snake wait for Dins, he cooks the grenade as long as he can until it gets to risky and throws. Now, Snake shields Dins, and successfully put Zelda near a grenade. While Zelda is repositioning herself and not being stupid by trying Dins again in fear of the grenade blowing up in her face, Snake can merely pull out another grenade and cook that one, thus outcamping Zelda.

And I find it better to be mildly negative than stupidly optimistic. Im aware, and I actually believe Zelda is C tier material, but Im also aware of her glaring weaknesses and merely dont brush them away.

 

[Nefarious B]

As for getting a secondary of course you can but whereas ZSS only needs to cover one matchup I think Shelda's might need to cover a bit more. ZSS only really has Falco and even thats not totally unwinnable with the right stages. Similarly most of ZSS' 40:60s (Diddy/ICs are the only ones that come to mind in the high tiers) can be swung to her advantage on her counterpicks. (I think Diddy/IC's/Falco are all to ZSS' advantage on RC or Brinstar.)

ZSS doesn't really have 40-60s to be honest lol. Besides the MK matchup which as I hate to keep having to say, is debatable. After that, Squirtle is a tough one, and in the past we said Pit and Lucario might be 40-60s as well but I think, atleast with the Pit matchup, that that sentiment has changed pretty much to an evenish match.

Diddy is just a very difficult matchup to get used to. If anything though, ZSS is better equipped to deal with nanners than 90% of the cast, with her not only having better options to control them (good dash attack, good reach for intercepting nanners with aerials, JCT can dribble and long GT for combos) but also leading to a 40% combo off every trip with a dsmash.

And we have ice climbers as even, we actually used to have it as our advantage (and I think snakeee still says it is) because, again, with her range and speed she's better equiped to deal with them than 90% of the cast. She is the only character that I can think of right now that can effectively outspace the climbers at midrange. She has can break them up "easily" with dsmash and side b pokes, all from relatively safe range, and she's fast enough to dance around popo while comboing nana once they've been separated. Her mobility in the air and on the ground will make it tough for them to catch her.