Character Matchups & Strategies

[Stealth Raptor]

indeed its like what 70-30 pika now? and hi moe

 

[stealth3654]

Hey Pikachu boards, I haven't been here in a while.

The Sheik boards are currently discussing the Pikachu match-up here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226389&page=19

We would really appreciate it if you guys would contribute to the discussion.

Thanks .

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I would say the MU with CG have changed this much:

MK: 45-55
Snake:55-45
Falco: 70-30
DDD: 70:30
Ganondorf: 85-15
Fox: 70-30
Wolf: 70-30
Ike: 65-35
Wolf: 70-30
Falcon: 75:35

Those are the ones off the top of my head...

 

[Ussi]

Enlighten me the CG on Ike? o.o I know fthrow goes to 60% but i though dthrow went only too 50% o.o

EDIT: Looked that it goes to 60% + regrab, i'd say only 6-4 still o.o

 

[Kenrawr]

I would say the MU with CG have changed this much:

MK: 45-55
Snake:55-45
Falco: 70-30
DDD: 70:30
Ganondorf: 85-15
Fox: 70-30
Wolf: 70-30
Ike: 65-35
Wolf: 70-30
Falcon: 75:35

Those are the ones off the top of my head...

70:30's sound a bit dramatic for falco and wolf dontcha think? They still have good spacing/camp games. It's probably way closer to 60:40 than 70:30 imo.
D3's still a 60:40 too imo. Maybe even closer?
Why is Ike a 65:35?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i think k9 has the better assesment of the matchups, pikachu doesnt really hard counter that many people. and i would call gnon 75-25, 85-15 is a bit much

 

[KayLo!]

I think DDD is 55:45, tbh. 60:40 if you're optimistic.

We have a lot on him, but you will get grabbed, and his throws are both powerful and set up for some ******** tech chases. That, and even with the CG, he lives a LOT longer than we do unless you get some early thunder kills. With good prediction, he has ways to shut down all of our approaches, so getting the grab on him can be tough anyway if he knows it's coming.

My two cents from playing a very good DDD somewhat regularly.

 

[gallax]

ok. first of all i say bogus on the wolf MU. its like super impossible to get the cg off on wolf. i can NEVER pull it off and at most get them to like 45%. at best the MU is 60:40 although i say its 55:45 in favor of pika.

same goes for falco, though not as bad. i say its 55:45 pika. falco is a pain when all they do is laser camp.

DDD is definately 55:45 due to solely being that we still need to get DDD to at least 130% until we can effectively kill. and most DDD's i play live till around 180% before they die. if grabbed by DDD they can still dthrow tech chase us and re-grab or bthrow which causes around 16-17% damage. that means they would only need around 6 grabs until the utilt kills or the dash attack kills or their fair kills. getting grabbed by the best grabbing character in the game is a hard thing to avoid. you will get grabbed. maybe not that many times, but it still will happen. (remember that the cg means we have to grab them too, which means we have to get in close and are always at the mercy or a grab) not to mention that a good DDD can gimp even pika out off the stage. oh, thats not even mentioning how he can outspace us, has the most powerful fsmash in the game and an usmash which is powefull too. and if you play a really good DDD then you will learn to aviod his waddles at all time cuz they extend his hitbox. oh, and i even forgot about his spiked waddles(cant remember name of them atm. something like goomba)

overall assessment of DDD: 55:45 pika

and snake vs pika is still even. a really good snake will know how to manage his nades so that the cg will not work. if you do get a grab off then you have truly mastered snake or gotten lucky. pika will never have the adv just because of the fact that we die at such a low percentage compared to snake.

a quick story. i palyed a snake at fl gaming. i did win yes. let me go through it. first stock he died first at at around 150%. now i got a dthrow cg off to about 55% cuz he got a nade off when getting grabbed. so i bthrowed him then from there tjolt camped and got in a few more grabs then got an utilt to thunder kill.
he comes back and after getting like 20% damage he utilts me at 106% and i die. now i come backand do not a cg in cuz the nades aer freaking ridiculous. but, i dod get an oos nair on him and he went offstage and i mindgamed him into an early thunder kill at 115%. i have around 50% damage now. he comes back and by the time i die he has around 85% damage. im like all happy cuz i thought i was easily going to win. i tjolt camo him more and after getting hit by one nair, a ftilt, a grab, and like 4 nades im back up into kill percents. now i run up to him get an usmash and then hit him with a thunder. but guess what? at 150% he doesnt die from thunder!!!!!! wtf!!!!!! so i tjolt camp him more and now the snake is at 185% damage. now im not going to fair>utilt>thunder since well its too **** risky with the utilt. which leaves me with fsmash/nair/usmash to kill. im not gonig to get off a ftilt against snakes ftilt. a rising nair is an option and i try it a few times but stop because he is getting used to it and i dont want to get a buffered turn around utilt. so what i do is run up and shield. he tries to grab i spotdodge then immdiately dsmash. he di's out after like three hits i run after and predict his roll and usmash him to win.

point of the story is that even though i got a cg off and had a full stock to **** him, he took a total of around 450-460% damage while i took only around 330--340% damage. thats a difference of about 120% which is a full life to pika. and what does this show? it shows that to play as pika against a snake you will have to make far less mistakes and play far better to win. now what if you play someone who knows this MU and doesnt make mistakes? it means that the matchup is now far greater and harder to play and only if you play as good will you stand a chance at winning. this MU will never favor pika. but, it will always be awesome to watch and play.

 

[Kenrawr]

We need to discuss the Pika:Inui MU.

 

[gallax]

well whenever you paly inui just remember to point and laugh at his face in teh middle of the match. its a for sure win after that.

 

[sniperworm]

oh, and i even forgot about his spiked waddles(cant remember name of them atm. something like goomba)

Gordo!

We need to discuss the Pika:Inui MU.

I think Pikachu has the advantage because it's cute.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

pikachu wins cause inui is at the bottom of f tier

 

[Shadowtheoriginalone]

TL's (Well, my friend's...he's really good) try to overwhelm you with projectiles then come out of nowhere and do a up or down smash.
...At least that's how I think good TL's act. :/

 

[KuroKitt10]

Hey, Gallax, I'll get started on a new Match-Up chart for this thread - I think the new tier list is different enough to warrant a bit of a reorganization of our Match-Up chart. It may not bug all of you, but I'm such a **** perfectionist that I'm just gonna have to make up a new chart XD

I finish finals this week, so I should be able to get to work on it starting next weekend. If anyone has any ideas about how they think it should be reorganized, I'm all ears =)

Meow!

 

[gallax]

Gordo!

HOW COULD I FORGET GORDO!?!?!?!

Hey, Gallax, I'll get started on a new Match-Up chart for this thread - I think the new tier list is different enough to warrant a bit of a reorganization of our Match-Up chart. It may not bug all of you, but I'm such a **** perfectionist that I'm just gonna have to make up a new chart XD

I finish finals this week, so I should be able to get to work on it starting next weekend. If anyone has any ideas about how they think it should be reorganized, I'm all ears =)

Meow!

yeah man. that actually is a good thing cuz i need to start finishing up the matchups and needed some motivation. this is just the motivation i need. just get back to me whenev.

 

[KayLo!]

If anyone has any ideas about how they think it should be reorganized, I'm all ears =)

IIRC, Gallax was pretty fond of this picture (and so am I):

You could easily cut the boxes apart and rearrange them however you wanted to (it would need to be thinner to fit SWF's rules anyway -- oops).... and also change the names to their English counterparts if the Japanese ones bother you.

 

[Pikabunz]

That picture doesn't have ZSS or Sheik.

Also, ESAM is funny with his MU numbers.

 

[KayLo!]

That picture doesn't have ZSS or Sheik.

....Motherf'er. You're right.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

DDD is definitely NOT 55:45 Pikachu...it is more than that. Have you seen what we can do when he is off the level? Holy crap...it is **** when he is off the level. If you know what you are doing he should never get back on...ever. It really isn't that difficult. Yeah, his B-throw does 16% (or 18%) but he can't really kill us for ****. Yeah he has u-tilt...but its really obvious when its gonna come. It is like kirby: They have pretty good kill potential...but it is extremely obvious even though the moves are fast. His bair is his main move against us in the MU so it won't be a very good killer unless we just killed him, and he is bait for our thunder! U-tilt/U-smash to thunder is 99% guaranteed since he is so fat! It was agreed 60:40 before and now that our CG goes 90% it should AT LEAST be raised to 65:35.

Also...we can still duck under falco's lasers...we can crawl under them...you won't get hit. And one grab = very close to death, especially if you get the F-throw to near the edge where you can just rising nair and get falco off the level, where we all love falcos to be.

Wolf idk because i haven't played against a wolf in months...ill have to play equi or emo^wolf soon so i can refresh my memory.

Also, the D-throw on Ike goes to 67% IIRC.

And ganon sucks...

ok. first of all i say bogus on the wolf MU. its like super impossible to get the cg off on wolf. i can NEVER pull it off and at most get them to like 45%. at best the MU is 60:40 although i say its 55:45 in favor of pika.

You aren't doing the CG right then...you can get to 90% at least... Again, i haven't played against a wolf in a long time, but the CGs were tested and you shouldn't be getting that little %.

same goes for falco, though not as bad. i say its 55:45 pika. falco is a pain when all they do is laser camp.

Laser camp < Pikachu. As i said above, we can duck under them and even crawl under them. If they phantasm away, you just do it over again...

DDD is definately 55:45 due to solely being that we still need to get DDD to at least 130% until we can effectively kill. and most DDD's i play live till around 180% before they die. if grabbed by DDD they can still dthrow tech chase us and re-grab or bthrow which causes around 16-17% damage. that means they would only need around 6 grabs until the utilt kills or the dash attack kills or their fair kills.

This is true...but as i said above you shouldn't really be getting hit by dash attack at least. U-tilt will get you...but only mindgamed. Also, with DDD being such huge bait for thunder you can kill him at low 100s with U-smash/U-tilt to thunder.

Getting grabbed by the best grabbing character in the game is a hard thing to avoid. you will get grabbed. maybe not that many times, but it still will happen. (remember that the cg means we have to grab them too, which means we have to get in close and are always at the mercy or a grab)

Yes, we will get grabbed...but DDD's tech chases are easier to get out of than it is to get out of snake's, and you shouldn't really be taking more than 40% no matter how good the DDD is (assuming the pikachu has a brain)

Yes, we will get grabbed not to mention that a good DDD can gimp even pika out off the stage.

What? Have you ever heard of recovery mix-ups? Yeah he can bair us out of things, but we should NEVER die from it unelss we are high % and the bair is fresh...

oh, thats not even mentioning how he can outspace us, has the most powerful fsmash in the game and an usmash which is powefull too.

Yeah..he has powerful F-smash and U-smash, but WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU GET HIT BY IT? Both moves are INCREDIBLY telegraphed and are impossible to mindgame for the hit against anybody with half a brain. Yes he can outspace us, but you can easily outcamp him. Hell, you can run in and powershield his f-tilt and then run in and grab him.

and if you play a really good DDD then you will learn to aviod his waddles at all time cuz they extend his hitbox. oh, and i even forgot about his spiked waddles(cant remember name of them atm. something like goomba)

Yeah...his gordo's are a pain in the ***...but unless you are right next to him you should be able to shield on time or airdodge through it. Seibrik showed me that if you run in and P-shield the waddle, it has enough lag so that you can run in and grab him.

overall assessment of DDD: 55:45 pika

Bring up counterpoints to my points and we will see where it goes.

and snake vs pika is still even. a really good snake will know how to manage his nades so that the cg will not work. if you do get a grab off then you have truly mastered snake or gotten lucky. pika will never have the adv just because of the fact that we die at such a low percentage compared to snake.

Yeah, it is hard to get the CG...but if you do it is at least 30-50% at minimum.

a quick story. i palyed a snake at fl gaming. i did win yes. let me go through it. first stock he died first at at around 150%. now i got a dthrow cg off to about 55% cuz he got a nade off when getting grabbed.

You should throw him to the ledge and do it from there. If you couldn't, disregard that comment.

so i bthrowed him then from there tjolt camped and got in a few more grabs then got an utilt to thunder kill.

Good so far

he comes back and after getting like 20% damage he utilts me at 106% and i die.

You shouldn't be dying THAT early with DI + momentum cancelling...it should be closer to 120%.

Now i come back and do not a cg in cuz the nades aer freaking ridiculous. but, i did get an oos nair on him and he went offstage and i mindgamed him into an early thunder kill at 115%.

Yeah, nades are a pain in the ***...but you shouldn't really be approaching. Snakes LOVE when you approach them, they just get free everything against you: Grabs and F-tilts and shielded nade explosions mainly since that's all they do at low %s.

i have around 50% damage now. he comes back and by the time i die he has around 85% damage. im like all happy cuz i thought i was easily going to win. i tjolt camp him more and after getting hit by one nair, a ftilt, a grab, and like 4 nades im back up into kill percents.

You shouldn't be getting hit by many grenades. I know that in my recent videos i still get hit by stuff, but in friendlies afterwards i was getting hit by a lot less and nades was one thing i wouldn't get hit by. You NEED to camp snake in order for it to be in your advantage.

now i run up to him get an usmash and then hit him with a thunder. but guess what? at 150% he doesnt die from thunder!!!!!! wtf!!!!!!

It happens with DI dude...it was probably because it was stale since we pikachu's tend to use thunder a lot more than we should...

so i tjolt camp him more and now the snake is at 185% damage. now im not going to fair>utilt>thunder since well its too **** risky with the utilt. which leaves me with fsmash/nair/usmash to kill.

Camp him until the T-jolts knock him off the level...if you know how to space with T-jolts (which i am learning how to do quite well) you shouldn't ever have to approach him. If the T-jolt gets him off the level...go edgeguard. Just make sure you don't run into a C4/bair/fair/nair when you are doing it.

im not gonig to get off a ftilt against snakes ftilt. a rising nair is an option and i try it a few times but stop because he is getting used to it and i dont want to get a buffered turn around utilt.

Again...you shouldn't be approaching lol. Also...mindgames?

so what i do is run up and shield. he tries to grab i spotdodge then immdiately dsmash. he di's out after like three hits i run after and predict his roll and usmash him to win.

point of the story is that even though i got a cg off and had a full stock to **** him, he took a total of around 450-460% damage while i took only around 330--340% damage. thats a difference of about 120% which is a full life to pika. and what does this show? it shows that to play as pika against a snake you will have to make far less mistakes and play far better to win. now what if you play someone who knows this MU and doesnt make mistakes? it means that the matchup is now far greater and harder to play and only if you play as good will you stand a chance at winning. this MU will never favor pika. but, it will always be awesome to watch and play.

You are a liar...but whatever. The snakes have to play near perfectly also. If they don't, we WILL get that 100% CG on them which is about all the % you need to have it even. Yes we get hit less times before we die...but so does everybody against snake. If neither player makes mistakes it is still a little in the edge of pikachu because pika camping > snake camping. If they mortar slide close to us, we can CG them or just throw them off and edgeguard. Here is a little thing i thought of which will probably work:

Most snakes that play against pikachus know about the CG. They know that the one way they can get out of it is by nading. Also, most snakes know the %s that the CG last. Now, if you get them by the edge, the snake will still most likely be dropping grenades for the chance it will still hit the ground. What i thought if is ending the CG earlier than what the cap % is. Most snakes will then drop the grenade (since they have to buffer it anyway) and they will be below the stage. Now they have to recover. If they recover straight up, we can grab their cypher and gimp him. If they recover away, that means we can either edgehog or knock them back off when they are falling to the stage. Or, better yet, they would have to C4 themselves which would tack on even more %. And, possibly, the C4 might even be on the level so they would have no option but to Cypher right into us! Gimp city. I wonder if it would work...

 

[Stealth Raptor]

you cant crawl under falcos lasers, only duck

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

you cant crawl under falcos lasers, only duck

I just tested it in debug having made the lowest laser possible, and pikachu crawling. YOU CAN CRAWL UNDER LASERS PEOPLE. I will have this video up tomorrow along with the explanation on CGs: Frame by Frame.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

you can crawl under standing lasers? i would love to see a vid of that cause that is what i am talking about, not sh lasers XP

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Oh...>_> what falco uses standing lasers?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

all the falcos that i have played, as soon as you start crawling they start doing standing lasers. they also do this when i psheild every laser they use on me. granted i psheild the standing ones too but w/e lol

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So just jump >_>

 

[Stealth Raptor]

lol you are cute esam. i love how you think i am describing a problem XD i have no trouble with falcos lasers. none. i just walk psheild. i almost never get hit by lasers anymore

 

[KayLo!]

ESAM, for such a good player, you have some of the most fail logic...... @.@

I'll respond with my points later since I'm busy atm, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[gallax]

DDD is definitely NOT 55:45 Pikachu...it is more than that. Have you seen what we can do when he is off the level? Holy crap...it is **** when he is off the level. If you know what you are doing he should never get back on...ever. It really isn't that difficult. Yeah, his B-throw does 16% (or 18%) but he can't really kill us for ****. Yeah he has u-tilt...but its really obvious when its gonna come. It is like kirby: They have pretty good kill potential...but it is extremely obvious even though the moves are fast. His bair is his main move against us in the MU so it won't be a very good killer unless we just killed him, and he is bait for our thunder! U-tilt/U-smash to thunder is 99% guaranteed since he is so fat! It was agreed 60:40 before and now that our CG goes 90% it should AT LEAST be raised to 65:35.

first of all you have to get them off the stage to start edgeguarding. second, they have DI to so if they have pika experience they are gonna know that a tjolt is coming and to aviod it. they have plenty of jumps to get around it. any good player will notice you trying to use a tjolt and react accordingly.

the bthrow was a point to show how easy it is for damage rack up for DDD.

he can kill us. he has at least 5 good kill moves. we are light and not invincible.

and to get the utilt/usmash you have to mindgames your opponent also or catch them in a laggy move. I am gonig to label this exhibit 2. so later in this post you can refer back to this.

Also...we can still duck under falco's lasers...we can crawl under them...you won't get hit. And one grab = very close to death, especially if you get the F-throw to near the edge where you can just rising nair and get falco off the level, where we all love falcos to be.

falco's know a grab is coming. they are going to space you with lasers then bait you into a CG also. dont forget esam, they also have a cg on us.

and the falco recovery is easy to beat when they are using their firefox. but when they are gonna illusion, well thats a bit tougher to edgeguard. even if they hit the wall of thunder it most likely will not kill them and they now can recover back to the stage easily since the thunder has vertical knockbackand not that much horizontal knockback when pika bounced(i made it up. it deserves a cool name).

tell me that you can two stock tommy g's falco 70% of the time and maybe we can take it from there.

Wolf idk because i haven't played against a wolf in months...ill have to play equi or emo^wolf soon so i can refresh my memory.

the wolf cg is probably one of the hardest cg's to pull off, let alone trying to grab a wolf. i play two wolf's quite often and its no picnic.

Also, the D-throw on Ike goes to 67% IIRC.

And ganon sucks...

ganon does suck.

You aren't doing the CG right then...you can get to 90% at least... Again, i haven't played against a wolf in a long time, but the CGs were tested and you shouldn't be getting that little %.

supposedly you are supposed to pummel at around 30% then repeat the dthrow cg. tried but still hard as hell.

Laser camp < Pikachu. As i said above, we can duck under them and even crawl under them. If they phantasm away, you just do it over again...

cant crawl unless they are hopped. if they phantasm away and we do it again we are in a repeating cycle where they will phantasm away again and then the cycle restarts and they phantasm again etc... its up to them when to attack.

if you say phantasm is easy to punish then show me a vid where you approach the laser camping falco who illusions when you get within fsmash range and you punishing that illusion and then i will believe you. the best that i can do against it is shield then try to ge back at falco as fast as possible and keep up the pressure.

This is true...but as i said above you shouldn't really be getting hit by dash attack at least. U-tilt will get you...but only mindgamed. Also, with DDD being such huge bait for thunder you can kill him at low 100s with U-smash/U-tilt to thunder.

I want to pull exhibit 2 out for show. "The utilt will get you...but only mindgamed." First thing is you being hypocritical of your opponent here. You think that only you can mindgame while it is nearly impossible to get mindgamed back from DDD. DDD's will have a setup that they like for utilt and they will get you with it if you are trying to attack from the air.

even if you shouldn't be getting hit by a dash attack, you still might. the DDD player might be good enough at predicting when you are gonna try and tech a dthrow and fall on you. he may even be smart enough to extend the hitbox using his waddles!! (this is another point frmo exhibit two)

im gonna compare their dash attack to our utilt. whats our usual setup? soptdodge>utilt, fair>utilt, qa>utilt. basically it. the spotdodge>utilt is a mindgame. fair>utilt shouldnt happen if the DDD shields. the qa>utilt is incredibly slow and shielding is easy. DDD should not be getting hit by utilt at higher percents. if they are smart enough they should be able to avoid it just like you say we shouldnt get hit by the dash attack. now its possible to pull it off for the both of us as seen by the both of us.

Yes, we will get grabbed...but DDD's tech chases are easier to get out of than it is to get out of snake's, and you shouldn't really be taking more than 40% no matter how good the DDD is (assuming the pikachu has a brain)

the tech chase is easier to get out of yes, but it can still happen depending on the D2 player mind you. it can also depend on luck a few times. the point was that the D3 player will use it to condition you to a tech chase then when at high percents MINDGAMES you and instead of running up and grabbing again he is just gonna fall on you and blam!! death!!!


BTW FOR ANYONE READING THIS. SHIELD THE DASH ATTACK. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SPOTDODGE IT OR YOU WILL MOST LIKELY DIE.

What? Have you ever heard of recovery mix-ups? Yeah he can bair us out of things, but we should NEVER die from it unelss we are high % and the bair is fresh...

Have you ever heard of a smart DDD? the DDD throws you with a fthrow off the stage. it send you the same distance up as over. the DDD follows you in the air. you try to ff they will follow. you try to qac under and over they bair you before you can do. you try to thunder to stop your momemtum they fair you. a DDD who plays against pika will know what to do. it is possible to get edgeguarded, especially if playing a really good DDD like hbox or co 18. saying its not possible is an arrogant statement.

Yeah..he has powerful F-smash and U-smash, but WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU GET HIT BY IT? Both moves are INCREDIBLY telegraphed and are impossible to mindgame for the hit against anybody with half a brain. Yes he can outspace us, but you can easily outcamp him. Hell, you can run in and powershield his f-tilt and then run in and grab him.

I want to pull out exhibit number two again. Again, underestimate your opponent. An usmash has actually nice startup time for an usmash of that power. it is not impossible or even unconcievable to consider getting hit by an usmash. lets say you are going in to fair DDD and the DDD uses an usmash? now why would you think he was gonna usmash you? i wouldnt. i would think shield or get hit or roll away or ftilt. not usmash. that is an element of um-predictability that most players will utilize at higher level of competition.

The fsmash is usually mindgamed but ive seen it hit, even on pro's. I recently watched a vid of Meep who has one of the best IC's in the country vs atomsk. He lost cuz he got fsmashed by the DDD. two pros and a fsmash connected. how abuot that? im sure meep has more than half a brain since he wins tournies and has IC's that are really really good. you shouldnt get hit by it, but the possibility is still there.

all D3 has to do is have a waddle in front of him and the tjolt is useless from afar. to camp from above will lead to an aerial D3 where bair cancels the tjolt and goes through our attacks. getting him the air is nice but if you stop with the tjolt when it gets canceled the D3 will get back to the ground and have plenty of time to adjust as so that he will not leave himself open to a fast character from underneath.

p-shielding a ftilt still leaves D3 enough time to spotdoddge your run in grab. ive tried it and have had it happen. even when i try to pivot grab to throw off the timing the d3 can still have enough time to react accordingly. he can outspace us easily.

Yeah...his gordo's are a pain in the ***...but unless you are right next to him you should be able to shield on time or airdodge through it. Seibrik showed me that if you run in and P-shield the waddle, it has enough lag so that you can run in and grab him.

the D3 shouldnt be using waddles when you are that close. signs of a D3 that doesn't know how to use D3 properly.

Bring up counterpoints to my points and we will see where it goes.

how about dinner next friday?

Yeah, it is hard to get the CG...but if you do it is at least 30-50% at minimum.

and thats equal to 2 ftilts. the other 100% damage still needs to be addressed.

You should throw him to the ledge and do it from there. If you couldn't, disregard that comment.

I will disregard. If I could have i most certainly would have. but as soon as i grabbed him i saw a nade drop and was like COME ON!!!!!!!!!!! so i dthrow twice and bthrowed the sucker. snake ate it.

Good so far

inorite!

You shouldn't be dying THAT early with DI + momentum cancelling...it should be closer to 120%.

first of all it was fresh. second i believe that it was sweetspotted. tihrd, low cieling on halberd.

Yeah, nades are a pain in the ***...but you shouldn't really be approaching. Snakes LOVE when you approach them, they just get free everything against you: Grabs and F-tilts and shielded nade explosions mainly since that's all they do at low %s.

if time is running out you need to approach. and sometimes you can find loopholes in the nade handling when approaching. i saw one but ate it cuz i didnt execute. it was my bad.

You shouldn't be getting hit by many grenades. I know that in my recent videos i still get hit by stuff, but in friendlies afterwards i was getting hit by a lot less and nades was one thing i wouldn't get hit by. You NEED to camp snake in order for it to be in your advantage.

oh friendlies dont count. we all know this. everyone gets hits by nades. its hard not to when they come out in 1 frame. saying nades shouldnt matter in a match is truly an unexperienced player with snake or a truly arrogant player or a truly ignorant player.

on paper it may seem nice. but when playing in the real world its not that easy.

It happens with DI dude...it was probably because it was stale since we pikachu's tend to use thunder a lot more than we should...

it had to do with his airdodging. i knew he was gonna airdodge so i waited a little then thundered. he got hit with like the second half of thunder which is the weaker part. it sould still kill though!!!

Camp him until the T-jolts knock him off the level...if you know how to space with T-jolts (which i am learning how to do quite well) you shouldn't ever have to approach him. If the T-jolt gets him off the level...go edgeguard. Just make sure you don't run into a C4/bair/fair/nair when you are doing it.

jab to walk a little forward to jab will cancel out tjolts and effectively keep snake on the level.

there are situations in which you must approach. like if you are losing and the match timer is drawing near an end. you need to approach. i admit i should have spammed the jolts, but i felt as if going against the nades at that time was a bad idea. it was a momentum thing.

Again...you shouldn't be approaching lol. Also...mindgames?

i love mindgames too!!! who woulda thought? just because i dont explain that i use mindgames it doesnt mean i dont there is no point in saying i was approaching and mindgaming other than to try and brag. i mindgame plenty fool.

You are a liar...but whatever. The snakes have to play near perfectly also. If they don't, we WILL get that 100% CG on them which is about all the % you need to have it even. Yes we get hit less times before we die...but so does everybody against snake. If neither player makes mistakes it is still a little in the edge of pikachu because pika camping > snake camping. If they mortar slide close to us, we can CG them or just throw them off and edgeguard. Here is a little thing i thought of which will probably work:

i dont lie. numbers dont lie. pika camping is not greater than snake camping. we have argued this over and over. the basic reason is tha snake can cancel tjolt but we always have to be careful of nades exploding around us.

i pulled off 1 cg>100% in that match and it still was near even despite me being the better smasher.

if you grab a snake near the end of their mortar slide be prepared to eat a mortar in the face.

Most snakes that play against pikachus know about the CG. They know that the one way they can get out of it is by nading. Also, most snakes know the %s that the CG last. Now, if you get them by the edge, the snake will still most likely be dropping grenades for the chance it will still hit the ground. What i thought if is ending the CG earlier than what the cap % is. Most snakes will then drop the grenade (since they have to buffer it anyway) and they will be below the stage. Now they have to recover. If they recover straight up, we can grab their cypher and gimp him. If they recover away, that means we can either edgehog or knock them back off when they are falling to the stage. Or, better yet, they would have to C4 themselves which would tack on even more %. And, possibly, the C4 might even be on the level so they would have no option but to Cypher right into us! Gimp city. I wonder if it would work...

it would work only if the snake is stupid enough to keep nading when on the edge. you gave the snake enough credit to know everything about the cg but not enough to know that nades will drop near the ledge. lol. you are too funny esam. if i am snake and on the edge i am DI'ing towards pikas head and trying to jump out.

 

[KayLo!]

So much words...... @.@

ESAM, I have to agree with Gallax when he says that you're assuming the Pikachu player is extremely good/impossible to mindgame but the DDD is ******** and can't set up anything. DDD's powerful moves are predictable -- hell, DDD as a character, period, is predictable, but the things he does work.

You say his tech chases won't hit and are easy to see coming? He has ways to hit and/or regrab you no matter what you do from a tech (roll, attack, stand, whatever), so with good prediction, he will hit you after you get thrown. And DDDs practice this stuff..... their playstyle depends on reading your tech patterns and predicting what you'll do. Generally, they're very good at it. So for you to say that Pika should never get hit out of a throw is silly.

Dash attack and fsmash followups, yeah, we shouldn't be getting hit by those too often, but he has more options than that, friend.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

and if you want to keep arguing the point post vids of you in the matchup vs a good ddd.
and LOL gallax talk about a wall of text (and multiquotes) o.o

 

[gallax]

im a champ. im crazy moreso.


that should count as three posts.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Good points gallax. If seibrik still played I would show you recent vids of me vs him...but i haven't played against a DDD since 2 months ago against Hungrybox (won 2-0 btw, 2 2 stocks.) and the Waddle thing will work from half of final D, trust me.

Also, HBox and Seibrik apparently suck based on what you guys are saying, because neither of them really hit me with dash attack, u-tilt, u-smash, or F-smash...ever. I get hit by U-tilt the most since it is faster, but rarely the other 3...whatever. Either way, it was decided that it was 60:40 before...so it shouldn't get CLOSER, it should either stay the same or go to 65:35.

The snake u-tilt thing is good now, didn't know it was halberd.

 

[KayLo!]

Also, HBox and Seibrik apparently suck based on what you guys are saying, because neither of them really hit me with dash attack, u-tilt, u-smash, or F-smash...ever. I get hit by U-tilt the most since it is faster, but rarely the other 3...whatever.

You're just too good, ESAM. Second best Pika and all.

Either way, it was decided that it was 60:40 before...so it shouldn't get CLOSER, it should either stay the same or go to 65:35.

Imo, the ratio was flawed before, and yours is flawed as well. 60:40 is the most I would give the matchup, but I really think it's closer to 55:45 even with the CG.

However, I'm not a big fan of numbers. Call it what you want, but 65:35 is definitely overkill.

 

[Pika_Cam]

If the D3 is good, he won't let Pikachu grab him. Pikachu does have pretty bad grab range, and the D3 may be able to capitalize on that weakness because of his awesome range. Even if you do manage to get the full buffered cg on him, Dedede can live to very high percents and would take a lot more damage to kill. There are obviously more complexities to the matchup to discuss like D3's tech chasing and camping, but in short I will agree have to agree with KayLo that it's a 55:45.

 

[Nicholas1024]

I disagree. Sure, Pikachu has bad grab range, but there are some setups Pika can use to get the grab. Once that grab is made, the DDD has lost over 1/2 his stock. Combine that with the fact that thunder outlasts DDD's air dodge, and that DDD is such a huge target in the air, and thunder KO's are a lot easier to get. So, I'd say either 60-40, or 65-35.

Also, DDD does have plenty of killing moves, but you can't kill what you can't hit. And with good spacing, it can take a LONG time for DDD to hit us with a killer. F-Smash, U-smash, Dash attack should only connect if you make a mistake. (Of course, everyone makes mistakes...)

 

[Ussi]

I for one, never had trouble getting grabs with Pikachu... DDD does have post lag too...

 

[gallax]

my argument has nothin to do with getting grabs. i have not had problems getting grabs off on DDD either.

and thanks cam for saying you agree with klo and forgetting about me!!!

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

>_> Whatever. You can have it at 55:45 becasue you guys just invalidate my points with not many things. However, make the rating (the chart rating) still like...4.3 or something.

 

[KayLo!]

I for one, never had trouble getting grabs with Pikachu... DDD does have post lag too...

Go away, you don't play anymore.

Jkjk. Getting the grab on DDD isn't stupid hard, but it's not easy either. It takes patience.

If they like to throw lots of waddles, that's a free grab right there, but if they like to sit in their shield, you're going to have to find a creative way to bait something, because his shieldgrab > Pikachu's grab in range.

"But you can just tjolt!!!"

Tjolt is dumb easy to powershield even if you try to mix it up. Most people can't do it consistently, but when you play those players who can, you'll realize that tjolt isn't a 100% reliable way to set up anything.

Plus, like I said, DDD's shieldgrab is broken. If he shields tjolt and you try to run in and grab, you'll probably just end up getting grabbed yourself.

I'm not saying it's particularly hard, but it's not a walk in the park like you and ESAM and others are implying.

I disagree. Sure, Pikachu has bad grab range, but there are some setups Pika can use to get the grab. Once that grab is made, the DDD has lost over 1/2 his stock. Combine that with the fact that thunder outlasts DDD's air dodge, and that DDD is such a huge target in the air, and thunder KO's are a lot easier to get. So, I'd say either 60-40, or 65-35.

Also, DDD does have plenty of killing moves, but you can't kill what you can't hit. And with good spacing, it can take a LONG time for DDD to hit us with a killer. F-Smash, U-smash, Dash attack should only connect if you make a mistake. (Of course, everyone makes mistakes...)

First, you're assuming that you'll be getting the CG every stock. While possible, if DDD knows you're going hardcore for the CG, he'll just be extra careful to avoid the grab and punish your attempts to keep going for it. At some point, you'll have to abandon hope and damage him the good old fashioned way.

Even with the CG, it's like a softer version of Snake.... half a stock is still small potatoes compared to how long DDD lives and how early we die. If he's taking forever and ever to kill you, he's not a good DDD. DDD's kill moves may be slow, but he has several of them, and a good DDD will be experienced in landing his kill moves.

He has tech chase and edgeguarding traps out of his throws, so if you think he'll just be sitting around throwing out fsmashes and dash attacks and dsmashes and hoping they land, you're silly.

Thunder kind of ***** DDD, but he's not stupid. He won't keep trying to recover high right above you, so utilt/usmash > thunder is the only way it's guaranteed. Otherwise, if he recovers pretty low and has good DI, thunder won't be killing him, and he'll punish your missed attempts with fair or dair.

The problem with DDD is that with Pika's short range, anything you do puts you within his grab range except for fsmash, tjolt, and thunder. That right there makes this matchup so far from 65:35.

Y'all are underestimating the penguin, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

with the right ability to predict what the ddd is doing it isnt that bad, i say its a solid 60:40 pika, no higher or lower.