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Character Matchups & Strategies, v.2

Nordal

Nordal

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Messages
1,212
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CowTown USA
I wouldn't press your luck on punishing her landing with Fair. At least for Fair, try to think of it like mk's f smash since it has so little lag. You either wanna hit her before it comes out, or predict what she'll do after and punish accordingly. Her other aerials have small lag, but decent enough to punish if you're fast enough.
 
PZ

PZ

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
1,987
Location
Hinesville, Georgia
Nordal said:
I wouldn't press your luck on punishing her landing with Fair. At least for Fair, try to think of it like mk's f smash since it has so little lag. You either wanna hit her before it comes out, or predict what she'll do after and punish accordingly. Her other aerials have small lag, but decent enough to punish if you're fast enough.
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In conclusion K Prime is screwed...
 
King~

King~

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
2,454
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Chi-town, come at me
im with prime on this i think its -1

i simply thinks its because we dont have the tools to punish alot of her moveset, i mean we can get our own damage off like reads and things but not off of punishes. and i feel like float puts them in some sort of postional advantage on us.

esam how are you camping in this MU, cause i always get ***d by turnips when i try since they just go through jolts. ive been curious about that for a long time.

also i like Halberd in this MU
 
Tagxy

Tagxy

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,482
I've been trying to play this MU more. I think raz or silly kyle were the ones who told me but they said the MK MU for peach revolved around punishing MK for things he thinks he can punish you for, which is basically how this MU is working now. If any move is hitting your shield aside from jab, you probably cant punish it and are best off trying to escape. All her ground moves she can just jab afterwards, and all her aerials create too much space on shield except dair. Seriously, ive tried punishing with just about everything, you do not want peach to hit your shield.

The sort-of-nice thing is that peach's range is pretty terrible. So rather then trying to shield attacks and punish (which will just get you hit) its better off to just try and outspace her. Pikachu outranges her just about everywhere, except for that crucial fair. Best way Ive found around it is to attak the fair itself. I think in a dozen or so matches of literally trying everything, I somehow stumbled on the fact that you can knock peach out of her fair before the attack comes out but after she extends her hitbox with pikachus dtilt/utilt on a regular basis. At worst it trades hits, but usually she just gets hit. This does not work if shes floating low to the ground, but at that point its much easier to punish in different ways like stutter step fsmashing or shielding then grabbing (only if shes low to the ground). Just dont get baited into attacking an fair that isnt coming, keep an eye on their float to see when its ending to look for the appropriate time to punish.

Granted after being knocked out of their fair 5 or 6 times, they can just resort to camping with turnips which I have no answer for yet, rofl. Maybe just power shielding but I cant seem to do it well yet. But overall peach shouldnt be able to be aggressive in this MU, and you shouldnt be getting hit by fair.
 
[FBC] ESAM

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
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Pika?
I don't camp peach..that is why I've been losing @_@

You don't have to constantly T-jolt. Obviously if she is far away you can, but the objective is to not get hit. You can hit her once a minute while not getting hit and you would win. Pikachu is fast enough and has enough mobility to not get hit by peach...ever.

Also, do you think the Shield SDI thing would work against her F-smash? I would like to grab her out of it.
 
Volt_Storm_7

Volt_Storm_7

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
294
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沖縄県、日本
K Prime said:
Peach is starting to look like -1 for us. Discuss.
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Just for you guys, I`ll break down the MU for you. As Vees said, the most important thing is, don`t get hit. Now, that sounds hard, but it isn`t. The point of the matter is to not rush towards her and expect something obvious, instead, let them come to you. Use a spaced approach when fighting Peaches. If you treat this mu as a combination of ICs and mk, you`ll understand how to beat her. When I fight a peach, the most thing I think about is cancelling my moves, especially T-jolt and aerials, from a short distance away, but far enough away to not be hit by her *** or ***** slap. Peach expects you to be coming to them, but remember, we outspeed, outspace, and outprojectile her. I just noticed I bumped an old thread, dammit
 
Tagxy

Tagxy

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,482
I dont think we outprojectile her. But I could be doing it wrong.
 
Tagxy

Tagxy

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,482
I liked this information about turnips

-You want Peach to have a turnip. Holding an item severely reduced her out of shield options (most importantly short hop nair) and her fastest option would be float Nair (which most people would not be very fast at). When she has a turnip she's most likely going to glide toss it or jump and throw it.

My best answer to it is short hop Fair. If she glide tosses it towards you to try and start a combo (Illmatic loves doing this), you catch the turnip and hit her. If she glide tosses away from you, you catch the turnip and Fair doesn't have much lag to it so you're at a safe distance (with an item now). If she stays in shield, Fair will most likely shield poke her. If she's at a distance where she'll jump and toss it, then just avoid the turnip and prepare for her Fair/Dair. F smash beats any retreating ground float bull**** they try and pull (especially Fair).
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Nordal

Nordal

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
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1,212
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CowTown USA
Oh hey I got quoted. I used to main Peach (still kind've do, but I'm only good vs fox and the ditto so I guess some of that transferred over to pikachu), so if you ever have any Peachy questions just ask.
 
Roller

Roller

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Mar 21, 2008
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Just follow the grime...
So, can we start discussing matchups again?

Also. I believe Pika vs ICs is +3 ICs. I honestly don't even have to try against pika. you can't really camp ICs because 2 IBs > 1 jolt. You can't aircamp because IC's uair ***** from below you. You can't do any silly tricks involving QACing through them because they can just grab you out of it easy as pie. If you Dsmash, they can easily shield it and grab you. If you do any type of approach like auto canceled dair/fair/uair and it comes even close to the ICs they can pivotgrab it. Blizzard also stops anything pika can do with approaches short of a mid ranged jolt (which would be a poor choice of approach). You need to stay on platforms/the ledge all day, and ICs will **** you with uairs/nairs while you are playing on the platforms.

The only pika that has really been able to beat me in the matchup with any degree of consistency is Pikapika, who in our past 2 MMs has won by CPing Brinstar and then winning when I choke on the grab 3rd stock game 3. And he is a MUCH smarter player than I am. Brick also beat me, by cping me with snake. The fact that no other active pikas have beaten me (with pika), when I've played 90% of them and many of them are at least as good as I am forces me to believe this is a hopeless matchup if the ICs has any idea what they're doing.

Every pikachu that I've played, then asked about the matchup has agreed with me that it is Pikachu's toughest/ in his top 3 toughest matchups.

I do invite people to give evidence to the contrary, I want to hear what you have to say. But going off of my experience, vs more pikas than I could even list here; and by theory crafting with said pikas, it is a terrible matchup.
 
Nordal

Nordal

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You automatically go into any match with a disadvantage if you don't know the matchup and they do. Add that upon the fact that with ice climbers, one mistake could be your stock, and that you're more likely to make mistakes in a matchup you don't know and you get a disastrous result.

I don't think it's that bad, I'm just bad and bad at the matchup.
 
[FBC] ESAM

[FBC] ESAM

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Pika?
MU is even. PIkachu ***** when they are separated, and it is really easy to separate them. Pikachu also has an easy time of running away when there are platforms with his QA.
 
[FBC] ESAM

[FBC] ESAM

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Pika?
Let's see

Lylat
Smashville
FD
Yoshis
PS1
BF
Castle Siege

Castle and FD, IMO, are the 2 worst stages to play this MU on from the neutral list. The other I would strike is probably...smashville. I would rather have static platforms that I can QA to than ones that put you in the line of fire.

So that leaves BF, YI, PS1, and Lylat

ICs will strike Lylat and YI since slants can mess up D-throw CG stuffs. So...BF or PS1. I prefer PS1 as Pikachu since you have 30 seconds of stalling, which is ultimately what you want to do in this match: Time-out. BF is fine too since you have plenty of places to QA.
 
Roller

Roller

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Just follow the grime...
Actually, I would prefer YI, Lylat, or BF in this matchup (outside of FD). The slants don't really mess up CGs, they could mess up QA tricks, and on Yoshi's You can stand under one end of the platform. If they try to approach, desynched ice blocks/occasional blizzard shut down pretty much all of pikas below platform options. If they go on top of the platform, you are about to get beaten up by aerials. If you try to fall through and hit the ICs they can pivotgrab you. Not to mention the ICs can platform cancel into grab.

I think Castle is actually pretty good vs ICs. I usually strike it if they don't. It gives a lot of room for camping and has plenty of platforms for you to run and jump around on. And on the third transformation you can just plank and tjolt.

Also, plenty of the pikas I've played have ICs experience. Leaf has smoooom, stealth has Lux/Fino, etc.
 
Cassio

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
I dont think ICs are that bad. It can depend on the stage. I swear FD should be a good neutral if played right :(

I think YI is ok just because you can loop jolts around the platform to pressure their backside, at least compared to SV.
 
Roller

Roller

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Just follow the grime...
I've heard that before... Anther is the only one who has actually proved to me he can do it.

And there really is no universally safe way to initially separate the ICs unless one of them trips. Then you may gain some options. But ultimately you need to try baiting the ICs into doing something leaving them vulnerable (pivot grab, jumping onto a platform, etc) and hope you can pull off the punishment in a way that separates them by a decent margin without getting punished by one/both of the climbers instead.

At the end of the day, the matchup is each character waits for the other to make a mistake, then punish as hard as possible. Unfortunately for pika, most of the times ICs punishment for them is a stock; and best case scenario for pika is killing nana. Which is easier said than done, although pika has the tools to do it. But then you still have to deal with a popo which can cg you to 60, has aerials that can beat yours, has ice blocks to prevent jolt camping from being overly effective, and pivot grab/blizzard at close range to stop your approaches.
 
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