Character Matchups & Strategies, v.2

[*Cam*]

I would dispute the idea that we can force an approach from Marth. He can just jab out our tjolts or powershield them pretty easily. For example, watch the beginning of your match with Mike Haze. You shot 3 tjolts at him, and he powershielded all of them. You ended up approaching him after the tjolts didn't force him to approach. Granted, later in the match you did land several tjolts in a row, but it put you in danger because Battlefield wasn't big enough for you to effectively camp. You jumped to shoot the tjolts and Mike was inches away from punishing you for jumping too much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZXDpn-_gF0&feature=related

As for easily gimping Marth, are you talking about shooting tjolts on stage or off stage to gimp him? Most good Marths I have seen don't really have trouble getting around this as long as they go under the tjolt's trajectory. It's usually pretty hard to grab the edge in a way that either (a) Marth won't grab it first with his quick dolphin slash or (b) Marth won't air stall with a dancing blade and hit us with dolphin slash.

I would also like to point out that Marth has real combos on us, whereas he can DI almost any combos we try on him. And even if Marth's combos aren't true, he can try them a lot safer than we can try to execute ours. His range is good enough in the air and on the ground that he is really difficult to punish (unless you pshield everything). Pikachu, on the other hand, has to get in really close to try any sort of combos.

Finally, what is the damage output difference between Marth and Pikachu? Whose moves do more damage in general? That could really affect the matchup.

EDIT: O.o Ussi? You think Ike is a tougher matchup than Marth? But the chaingrabs and the combos and the speed difference...

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

He is talking about Ike v Marth being harder than Pika v Marth, not Pika v Ike.

Pikachu's edge pressure is also superb against marth, mainly T-jolts, f-tilt, and dair. When he is on the ledge, FH T-jolts near him. If he ledgehops an attack (assuming he grabbed ledge with up-b) he will have phantom lag, and you can nair him back out. if he gets up normally, fall with a dair (shockwave will send him back out). If he doesn't do anything...jolt again. If you see him get up while you are already on the floor, shield first, and then f-tilt OOS when you either get hit on your shield or you realize he isn't get up attacking. F-smash is also great spacing, it will outspace his get-up attack, yet still hit his roll.

 

[*Cam*]

He is talking about Ike v Marth being harder than Pika v Marth, not Pika v Ike.

OH! That makes much more sense. I guess I accidentally read "much more manageable than Ike" instead of "much more manageable than Marth vs Ike." My mistake.

Pikachu's edge pressure is also superb against marth, mainly T-jolts, f-tilt, and dair. When he is on the ledge, FH T-jolts near him. If he ledgehops an attack (assuming he grabbed ledge with up-b) he will have phantom lag, and you can nair him back out. if he gets up normally, fall with a dair (shockwave will send him back out). If he doesn't do anything...jolt again. If you see him get up while you are already on the floor, shield first, and then f-tilt OOS when you either get hit on your shield or you realize he isn't get up attacking. F-smash is also great spacing, it will outspace his get-up attack, yet still hit his roll.

What if he drops back off the ledge and hops back on the stage with nair or fair?

 

[KayLo!]

Eyo playing the best Marths =/= good MU experience because I'm obviously just beating the player and it has nothing to do with the available options that I beat him with.

Yep.

Why so defensive? x.o I was responding to how your posts came across..... didn't say anything about your skill or actual experience in the MU.

Everything you're saying is helpful and is probably more useful in practice, but a lot of it is about reading the other player, and it's very..... Pika POV (focusing on what Pika can do to Marth with a lack of emphasis on what he can do to us). It seems a little imbalanced. That was my only point.

Imo, @whoever asked the original question, you should also try to get some top Marths' opinions and go from there.

 

[*Cam*]

Why so defensive? x.o I was responding to how your posts came across..... didn't say anything about your skill or actual experience in the MU.

Everything you're saying is helpful and is probably more useful in practice, but a lot of it is about reading the other player, and it's very..... Pika POV (focusing on what Pika can do to Marth with a lack of emphasis on what he can do to us). It seems a little imbalanced. That was my only point.

Imo, @whoever asked the original question, you should also try to get some top Marths' opinions and go from there.

I was curious and checked the Marth board's matchup thread for Pikachu, but it is extremely outdated.

 

[KayLo!]

Try asking in their Q&A thread. Dunno how many experienced opinions you'll get, but it's worth a shot.

 

[Ussi]

i remember at one point Marth mains said, Marth wrecks ____ so badly, just no Marth really play at that level so it appears easier. (did said that for Ike vs Marth in like 09)

 

[Rizk18]

pika vs marth=50-50?

 

[cao]

no, marth vs pika is like 65-35, check the first page

 

[Leaf.]

First page is outdated.

Speaking of, would anyone care if I made a new image for it?
Of course that means we might have to talk about some of the more outdated MUs, but...

 

[Pikabunz]

Lol, jetpack Pika. Image source?
ika:

 

[Leaf.]

http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=12155648

Better than balloon travel.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I consider the match up Pikachu VS Peach even. Either one can win. I'm just curious how come the match up has Peach having a tiny advantage over Pikachu on here. Just curious.

 

[KayLo!]

The MU chart is old.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

The MU chart is old.

Ah I see. How old was that chart anyways.

 

[KayLo!]

Really old, lol. Over a year old.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Don't worry, a new MU chart will be up pretty soon

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Don't worry, a new MU chart will be up pretty soon

Ah alright! I'm wondering what the yellow wonder stacks up now compared to the older chart. Pikachu has always been my favorite since SSB64 and still maintain in being dominant with him! =)

 

[360°]

Don't worry, a new MU chart will be up pretty soon

how soon? a couple of days or a couple of weeks?
can't wait as i'm trying to get into pika again, played him today and did really well!

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The MU ratios shouldn't matter to people, just play your game.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

The MU ratios shouldn't matter to people, just play your game.

Hehe that is what I like to hear people say. =)

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Anyone else have difficulty against a good jiggs?

 

[Roller]

Nope. Shoot jolts. Run away. Up air.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

What about mk? Lots of fairs?

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

Fairs will get you faired back, or worse. Just run away, guess what he's going to do and never lose the lead.

 

[Rizk18]

Marth vs Pika ratio?

 

[Ussi]

ef the ratio, just learn how to fight against him

Spoiler

50/50-45/55

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Basically what Ussi said.

 

[Rizk18]

I wont play good unless I have a ratio, just gimme your ratio Esam.

 

[Metatitan]

I wont play good unless I have a ratio, just gimme your ratio Esam.

Then you're letting an imaginary number hold you back.

I like matchup discussions because people who actually know the matchup list what moves beat what (and possibly why) and how to deal with specific attacks/situations that cause most people trouble. These "what beat what"s let me know how to react to my opponent.

A number only dictates the person's opinion on whether or not the tools we have will allow us (assuming we're at an even level of skill as our opponent) to go even or have a slight/solid/large (dis)advange.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I think 50:50, but its probably in the middle of that and 45:55

 

[Rizk18]

I think 50:50, but its probably in the middle of that and 45:55

How did his worst MU go from 65-35 to about 50-50? So who's his worst MU now?

 

[Ussi]

ratios don't mean much, it really just depends on you. If you are trying to compare ratios between characters, that's fine and all, but it still doesn't say whose better for YOU as a player to use cause it depends on what you're more comfortable with.

Like when i fight Olimar, i am more comfortable using Ike than Pikachu cause of how easy it is to dominate the air with Ike (lol Olimar in the air), where as with Pikachu i just don't have much success against Olimar. Pikachu doesn't do worse against Olimar as a character, but as me, the player, I have more success with a character who does worse against Olimar.

And like, against Snake, i have much more success using Pikachu than Ike against him. Ike doesn't do bad vs Snake, but my Ike does




also, ratios chance cause the metagame changed. Lucario is the worst.. then Diddy.

 

[Pikabunz]

Olimar is the hardest for Pika, imo.

 

[Leaf.]

How did his worst MU go from 65-35 to about 50-50? So who's his worst MU now?

The Magic of Friendship.


imo Olimar, then lucario/diddy tie, then gaw for the worst.

 

[Ussi]

Maybe Ike does do better against Olimar than Pika :S

how bad do you guys think Olimar is for Pikachu?

 

[Leaf.]

65 for him. Possibly a bit more, maybe ~67 to be really detailed.
I get shot down every attempt I try to move.

 

[Ussi]

Really think all you need to do is move around and try to land a grab and throw him in the air. While that is hard to do.... i think just dash dancing to a SHAD can be good mind games...

 

[Roller]

Oli is tough for pika, but it isn't THAT bad. 67-33 is over exaggerated imo.

I'd say it's closer to 60-40 oli.

 

[Leaf.]

Eh, you are probably right, I just don't have a lot of experience in it.
Generally because I never see olimars despite having 2 okay-ish ones in texas.

Just gotta find one at a tournament and sit down for a while. I've never went at that matchup the right way.