Character Matchups & Strategies, v.2

[ElNoNombreHombre]

There's already a Lucario re-discussion. Feel free to add more to it, though.

 

[Roller]

We should do DK sometime.. soon. I had Cable and Dr. G in my pool at Apex. Bad things happened. Also, I hear biggy hates him.

 

[KayLo!]

I'm gonna do an updated chart soon to reflect the newer ratios we've discussed...... and we're going back to intervals of five for ratios unless people prefer this method.

Honestly, I like this way better since it shows the relativity between characters better (instead of having five matchups all at 45:55, for example, you can see which ones are relatively harder than others), but I can understand that it's harder for people to understand at a glance. ......It's probably a little too detailed anyway considering how dynamic MUs can be.

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

Zero Suit Samus and Bowser added. DKs and MKs invited to their dicussions.

Also, if my vote means anything, I'd like to keep the not-multiple-of-five ratio (but maybe we can line the coloring along multiple-of-five divisions and be far more obvious at-a-glance?).

 

[*Cam*]

I just realized, we've never discussed PT... ever.

I was playing Reflex the other day, and I didn't feel like I knew enough about the matchup. I hope we discuss it in the coming weeks.

 

[THuGz]

hey, i like pikachu.

 

[Roller]

The reason that we haven't discussed it cam, is because there is only one legit PT in the country, so most of us have no need. But, I'd say you definitely do. lol, cause reflex is ridiculous.

 

[PZ]

The reason that we haven't discussed it cam, is because there is only one legit PT in the country, so most of us have no need. But, I'd say you definitely do. lol, cause reflex is ridiculous.

U JUST responded lol and tblock no good? or he isnt in the country?

 

[T-block]

Interesting that you would drop my name of all names...

...and no, I'm pretty bad at this game (not to mention I live in Canada).

Magik is definitely a legit PT, although he dabbles in other characters a lot. typh was pretty **** good too, but I don't know how much he plays atm.

 

[KayLo!]

ENNH, you still doing these or...... ?

You had such a nice schedule going, lol.

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

Yeah. It's just that it dropped in priority for me due to school kicking my butt for a bit. I'll try to get back on it. Hopefully there'll be more participation in the next batch.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7898801#post7898801

Lucario wants to battle!

 

[Leaf.]

Excellent.
A chance to discuss such a ******** matchup...

Trela experience go!

 

[Meru.]

Hello my good rats Pokemon, you have been invited for Peach's rediscussion partyyy right here.

Step by :D

 

[Rizk18]

Is marth vs pika 50-50 now?

 

[Roller]

No. But it isn't quite as bad as we used to think.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Marth is even :3

 

[gallax]

Marth is truly an even fight. Nuf said.

 

[~automatic]

Marth is close to even (45-55) imo. The MU isn't bad like we once thought.

 

[*Cam*]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the Marth MU as being close to even. I think it's one of our toughest matchups if not the toughest.

What's the justification for calling it close to even?

 

[Pikabunz]

Cause ESAM said so.

 

[*Cam*]

Cause ESAM said so.

He should come explain it then.

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

He should come explain it then.

I would appreciate it if this happened.

 

[~automatic]

I'm well aware that you want ESAM's logic behind the Marth MU, but I'll just comment on my experience.

By Pshielding as best as possible and punishing with grabs Marth isn't a huge problem. At least Nene's, Eclipse's and Chill's Marth aren't in any way problematic for me anymore. I would have to play a Marth of the highest caliber to see how I would do against someone who is considered a Marth pro or something but the skill gap would be against me.

From what I heard, Anther was beating/going even with Mike at MLG. I'm sure ESAM, Prime or Z can do just as well or better against top Marths by playing well in whatever way they play the MU.

Olimar, Rob, MK and Lucario are harder MUs imo.

 

[*Cam*]

I'm well aware that you want ESAM's logic behind the Marth MU, but I'll just comment on my experience.

By Pshielding as best as possible and punishing with grabs Marth isn't a huge problem. At least Nene's, Eclipse's and Chill's Marth aren't in any way problematic for me anymore. I would have to play a Marth of the highest caliber to see how I would do against someone who is considered a Marth pro or something but the skill gap would be against me.

From what I heard, Anther was beating/going even with Mike at MLG. I'm sure ESAM, Prime or Z can do just as well or better against top Marths by playing well in whatever way they play the MU.

Olimar, Rob, MK and Lucario are harder MUs imo.

Olimar isn't that difficult once you learn how to get inside his zoning and how to keep him from resetting his stage control.

ROB isn't fun, but I don't feel like his kill potential or aerial game is enough to make him tougher than Marth.

I agree about Lucario and MK.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'll comment when I come back from my GFs, or I might just steal something from my BR post.

 

[King~]

im salty though,

i been saying marth isnt that bad since like early 09', real talk.

/salt

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I used to as well King, so you aren't special


=
I know nobody will agree with me on this, but based on my experiences I honestly can't say anything else.

Yes Marth has range to keep us out. Yes he has a dragon punch in his up-b, but thats about all he has. Pikachu can get in pretty easily, or just be content with T-jolting from far away. Pikachu has the projectile, Marth has to approach. Marth doesn't really have the tools to, so Pikachu can capitalize on the commitment marth HAS to do. Once he commits to a ground attack, we can FH jolt and it should connect unless he uses jab. If he goes in the air, we can run under and nair/uair/u-smash, or we can grab him when he lands. Once we grab Marth...he doesn't like it. No we don't have a CG on him, but with the new buffer dashes we get nairs at like 30-50%, and we get uair as well (Look at the thread if you want the %s. I'll probably end up editing them in to every summary). At 10% we get F-throw U-smash. Pikachu can stay inside Marth very well, and baiting Up-b is easy as hell.

Now onto the best part of the match for Pikachu...Marth off the level. HOLY HELL IT IS SO EASY TO EDGEGUARD MARTH! Send a T-jolt in his path of decent and it becomes hell for marth. He either has to get hit, which sets up for a nair or semi-spike uair, or he has to move left which allows us to grab the ledge or just send another T-jolt. If he counters, it is SO easy to punish, and Marth is really far down. Good Marth's save their jump to the end, so don't preemptively T-jolt, do it where you think they basically have to DJ. I've gimped Chaz many times and MikeHaze once in our set (Even though that T-jolt edgeguard was at like 170 rofl).

Marth does keep good pressure on Pikachu with fairs and DB, but I honestly think the match is even or if anything other than that 55:45 Pikachu

 

[Pikabunz]

How do we go under him if he short hops? He can just hit us with a fair. Marth can also fair or nair right before he lands. So even if we do power shield that aerial he lands with, he can possibly UpB/spotdodge before we can grab. As for the T-jolt edgeguard, can't Marth just fair the jolt? You can't really punish that option.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If he SHs walk towards him. If he attacks, shield, if not, it is a guessing game between grab, Dancing Blade, Up-b, and jump again. If you are out of range from grab, shield beats those 3 options. If he is in the habit of empty SH, just f-tilt angle up. It is really good. If he is spamming double fair (which isn't often) P-shield the first one to nair.

When he lands with fair, you can f-tilt him OOS, or just bait him to up-b.

For the jolt edgeguard, it only really does anything when he is low (obviously, just think of the angle) and if he fairs he will be out there longer, so just fall and grab the edge. He either dies or gets naired back out.

 

[Pikabunz]

If he SHs walk towards him. If he attacks, shield, if not, it is a guessing game between grab, Dancing Blade, Up-b, and jump again. If you are out of range from grab, shield beats those 3 options.

How are you gonna know when he attacks? You can't exactly react on time to shield his fair.

When he lands with fair, you can f-tilt him OOS, or just bait him to up-b.

Ftilt OOS is too slow. He can easily grab, DB, or even smash before Pika's ftilt comes out.

For the jolt edgeguard, it only really does anything when he is low (obviously, just think of the angle) and if he fairs he will be out there longer, so just fall and grab the edge. He either dies or gets naired back out.

He can DB to delay his UpB. Pika's ledge invincibility doesn't exactly last that long.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It's called prediction. Everything is prediction in this match once you get close. F-tilt OOS is fast sir...but OK.

 

[Pikabunz]

Then that has nothing to do with Pika vs Marth. Prediction is Player vs Player. Also, Marth has more safer options when it comes down to prediction.

And ftilt OOS isn't fast at all. 7 frames to shield drop + 5 frames to ftilt. Marth can do almost anything in that amount of time after landing with fair.

 

[Tagxy]

You can dash grab the landing lag on marths nair. I play the MU different then others it looks like, I like attempting to go above marth.

 

[Pikabunz]

Marth's nair barely has any landing lag. How you gonna dash grab that?

 

[Tagxy]

Im not sure but Ive seen it done, done it before, and been grabbed out of it before. You sort of just know when you can do it since the move is pretty telegraphed especially the second hit.

 

[KayLo!]

Then that has nothing to do with Pika vs Marth. Prediction is Player vs Player. Also, Marth has more safer options when it comes down to prediction.

^

Imo, ESAM, you seem to be basing the MU off of your doing well against other Marth..... players. Not the actual technical matchup.

Which is cool and all, since that's what should matter to you in practice, but a lot of what you're saying is about reading the other player. Not overall options.

EDIT: @Kyoshi: Even if you win this one, my MU score is still much higher than yours. >=(

@KT below:

 

[KT Kasrani]

tell em Lo

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Eyo playing the best Marths =/= good MU experience because I'm obviously just beating the player and it has nothing to do with the available options that I beat him with.

Yep.

Also, don't base MUs off of frame data, because in actuality, even with buffering, it never happens that way. Every person isn't going to choose the best option every time, and it never happens that way. If that was the case Pikachu loses a crap ton of MUs just because we have crap range and if people play frame and option perfect we can't get in. Don't think of it that way, think of it in a realistic way.

 

[Ussi]

i always thought Marth vs pika was never bad.. It was much more managable than Marth vs Ike... Pikachu has speed to trick Marth into using the wrong option.