Character Matchups & Strategies, v.2

[[FBC] ESAM]

Lucario and Olimar are probably 40:60, and Wario, Diddy, and G&W are 45:55

 

[PZ]

pika vs marth=50-50?

Marth vs Pika ratio?

a month's difference...

 

[Tagxy]

I think olimar's our worst MU too. I also think he's noticably worse than Lucario. Lucario beats us, but tbh I dont think its as bad as it's made out to be.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I feel like G&W is between 50/50 and 45/55. Diddy is 45/55, wario is in the same boat as G&W, Lucario is in between 4555 and 40/60, while Olimar is 40/60

 

[Tagxy]

Random tips and stuff people may or may not know.

Wario: If he does that stupid jump forward -> air dodge -> fall back baiting nonsense and you know he's going to do it; run straight past him and uair. You can try grabbing too, but Ive found uair to be the safest and most likely to hit.

Olimar: Get below him/get him above you at all costs. This may seem no brainer but its honestly the only way Ive found to legitimately win. QA and QAC are sort of awesome in this MU. If you know hes going to jump -> pikmin toss, QA under him and dsmash/uair/whatever.

Lucario: Aurasphere becomes way less dangerous on stages with platforms. Focus on not getting hit by aurasphere, and punishing fsmash in safe ways even if its just jolts. Also if lucario comes at you near a platform, jolt the platform to hit from the top/behind and then attack him from the front/below.

Marth: Try using full hop dairs that will autocancel to hit marth from above, its either safe on shield or nearly impossible to punish. Once he catches on start mixing it up with air dodges into buffered grabs/attacks.

In general: Use jab more. Especially when youre out of options or caught in an attack.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

In general: Use jab more. Especially when youre out of options or caught in an attack.

Jab trips are nice kill set ups.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

JAB IS SOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOD

I just beat SeiBRICK in 9 sets yesterday while he only beat me in 2. My IC is getting pretty beast. I love having multiple characters to CP to on most levels :3

 

[KayLo!]

Whenever I feel a little better, I might make an updated chart with the BBR's numbers. Because theirs looks solid and this one is madd old.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It's basically my list except I wanted marth to be even

 

[Rizk18]

It's probably just even for you lol.

 

[linkisthebest123]

Z thinks marth is 50-50 too.

 

[Rizk18]

It cannot be be 50-50.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

IMPOSSIBILITY

I love when people say things without arguments.

 

[linkisthebest123]

Meh. I don't think its a 50-50 mu. I think its 55-45 marth at best.

But thats just my opinion. I'm terrible against marth cuz I never get good practice.

 

[Rizk18]

IMPOSSIBILITY

I love when people say things without arguments.

Explain to me in good detail how this MU is even.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I have done it multiple times before...just read back like 5 pages.

 

[Metatitan]

Explain to me in good detail how this MU is even.

Explain how its not.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I know nobody will agree with me on this, but based on my experiences I honestly can't say anything else.

Yes Marth has range to keep us out. Yes he has a dragon punch in his up-b, but thats about all he has. Pikachu can get in pretty easily, or just be content with T-jolting from far away. Pikachu has the projectile, Marth has to approach. Marth doesn't really have the tools to, so Pikachu can capitalize on the commitment marth HAS to do. Once he commits to a ground attack, we can FH jolt and it should connect unless he uses jab. If he goes in the air, we can run under and nair/uair/u-smash, or we can grab him when he lands. Once we grab Marth...he doesn't like it. No we don't have a CG on him, but with the new buffer dashes we get nairs at like 30-50%, and we get uair as well (Look at the thread if you want the %s. I'll probably end up editing them in to every summary). At 10% we get F-throw U-smash. Pikachu can stay inside Marth very well, and baiting Up-b is easy as hell.

Now onto the best part of the match for Pikachu...Marth off the level. HOLY HELL IT IS SO EASY TO EDGEGUARD MARTH! Send a T-jolt in his path of decent and it becomes hell for marth. He either has to get hit, which sets up for a nair or semi-spike uair, or he has to move left which allows us to grab the ledge or just send another T-jolt. If he counters, it is SO easy to punish, and Marth is really far down. Good Marth's save their jump to the end, so don't preemptively T-jolt, do it where you think they basically have to DJ. I've gimped Chaz many times and MikeHaze once in our set (Even though that T-jolt edgeguard was at like 170 rofl).

Marth does keep good pressure on Pikachu with fairs and DB, but I honestly think the match is even or if anything other than that +1 Pikachu.

 

[Leaf.]

I kinda agree with ESAM. I'm not ready to say it's able to be +1 pika, but I can say it's close enough to even to say it's probably not +1 Marth.

One thing I don't agree about is when Marth goes in the air. Unless it's a FH and I was already semi-close, I'm not gonna try to run at him because he can just FF a f-air and swat away.

Also, it's just better to stay in your shield vs Marth. Don't roll or spotdodge unless you have to. Because it's so much better to only take a grab which is only like 4%, than a full DB or F-smash.

 

[linkisthebest123]

Z agrees with you esam, he thinks that its 50-50

thanks for the marth advice btw :D

 

[PZ]

Its funny how rizk asks for the ratio between marth n pika every 2 months<.<

Also brick ratios mean **** these days

 

[Sky Pirate]

Olimar boards are discussing Pikachu.

I know it's a hard match-up, but maybe a discussion like this would make it a bit closer to even.
And our most current frame data can be found here, if anyone is curious.
It's a little rough, but our research thread will be up soon.

 

[PZ]

Olimar boards are discussing Pikachu.

I know it's a hard match-up, but maybe a discussion like this would make it a bit closer to even.
And our most current frame data can be found here, if anyone is curious.
It's a little rough, but our research thread will be up soon.

Wow after looking at olimar's frame data pika's ftilt is completely safe unless pshield.

 

[KayLo!]

There's a reason why people always say ftilt is good vs. Oli. =X

 

[PZ]

Shhh I face cpus this noob knows nothing!

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Good to know :D

 

[Pikabunz]

How is ftilt safe? Can't Olimar shield grab it?

 

[PZ]

How is ftilt safe? Can't Olimar shield grab it?

Its safe against all his other attacks but shield grab idk...?

 

[Sky Pirate]

I wonder if we can Usmash it OoS as well...
Lots of Olimars are doing that nowadays.

 

[Roller]

You can't Usmash it. Assuming it is spaced properly.

 

[Syko_Lemming]

This should probably be put in the OP. Seeing as what's there now is a little old.



-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Mmk, so I actually think
Marth is =
Lucario is -1 (I got over my super fear)
Snake is +2
Kirby is +1
Sheik is +4

 

[Leaf.]

What, other than the chaingrab, makes shiek +4 for us and not +3 like the spacies?

And how did you get over your fear?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Falco has a much better camp, as does fox. THey also have safe moves on shield and a non-*** recovery. We can punish almost everything on shield (in front of us) with grab against sheik, and we kill her.

I got over my fear by actually playing anybody with the character. I had 0 experience, literally, when I played Lee for the first time (And I beat him the next time I played him). Then I played Trela and realized that they aren't necessarily good, but more gimmicky due to the lack of high-level ones. However, as a top player with mid-level experience of a character, we can understand and assume the top-level implications of that character. If I played a mediocre luigi and then big lou, I would still understand what he is probably going to do based on the top-level mindset and just knowing the basics of what combos and other general MU stuff.

 

[Roller]

Sheik is not -4. **** that. I don't see why you would put her as easier than fox.. Ftilt and dacus as well as her needles allowing her to attack from platform camping without having to fall down to hit a grounded pika make her at LEAST as difficult as fox imo.

Having exp vs 2 good sheiks. One of which being a top 5 player of the character I think it is -3. Not lower.

 

[Pikabunz]

Peach is starting to look like -1 for us. Discuss.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

**** peach....I don't understand that character

You need to play her on levels where you can hit her up, as dair/uair are the least threatening aerials in this match-up. She has an airdodge that has 10 frames less invulnerability. You can juggle her and then you have to FF and keep her up there. If she gets to the ground...you have to camp her. You can't really punish her F-smash because of her jab, nor can you punish any of her aerials because of auto-cancelling. You have to basically play the evasive game, don't ever shield, and just stay out of range. Roll instead of shielding her attacks (she isn't really fast enough movement wise to punish). Camp and make sure SHE DOESN'T GET 4 STITCH FACES IN ONE SET! Levels like RC and Frigate are amazing vs her, and the best neutral would probably be Lylat or BF.

Still even though.

 

[KayLo!]

Levels like RC and Frigate are amazing vs her, and the best neutral would probably be Lylat or BF.

Lylat for sure, and lovelovelove(d) Frigate in this MU.

 

[Phoenix Lord']

That Peach stuff would've been real helpful last weekend. Oh well.

 

[Pikabunz]

Can we punish any of her moves? It seems like they all have almost no lag. :/