Character Matchups & Strategies, v.2

[Stealth Raptor]

ice block shuts down tshock, its such an easy projectile to powershield as well.

 

[Ussi]

Can't IC just uair through it since wood doesn't conduct electricity?

 

[Roller]

If the jolt is coming from above, then yes.


And I already mentioned both of Stealth's (completely valid) points in one of my previous posts. There is no reason jolts should be doing anything to ICs, short of preventing them from walling pika out with desynched blizzards. Which the ICs wont even be attempting in this matchup.

 

[Ussi]

Jolt should seperate when sent at an angle from above ya? Thats why i said IC just uair through that..

Cause from the ground ice block handles grounded jolt

 

[Roller]

Yeah, but you can just shield an aerial jolt as well... It's the more common option. But I guess the take home message is that ICs have multiple ways of preventing tjolt from being a bother.

 

[Leaf.]

Jolts are amazing, but that's IF they hit.

 

[Cassio]

Jolt is effective if they try to desync, even with ice block. Its also helpful at pressuring their backside on stages with platforms.

From what Ive experienced and learned ICs make themselves vulnerable when they try to desync, but desynching allows them to get set ups into grabs and really capitalize on mistakes. The biggest problems are being precise with separating an IC thats left an opening, and making sure that nana is dead in one or at most two separations. If you cant seperate and kill nana then pika is putting himself in significant danger to accomplish too little.

imo while both tasks require great (but feasible) knowledge and technical skill in the MU, separating them isnt really that difficult for pika compared to actually killing nana. Its possible to kill nana in one separation but theres little room for error. I think FD's the easiest to kill nana on even though its also easier to get grabbed.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

exactly if they try to desynch or do blizzard walls like an idiot vs pikachu yes jolt is effective. if they desynch ice block or just approach or w.e it isnt that effective

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So I guess none of the ICs players I have ever played know what they are doing.

Hylian doesn't
Ally doesn't
Lain doesn't

Oh well, I guess we must all bow down to your greater knowledge of the MU seeing as you are the ONLY one who knows anything about it, right Roller?

 

[Ussi]

DEHF can beat IC mains but its still a bad MU for falco.

just saying~

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Well then Pika has a lot of bad MUs since I'm the only one doing anything worth noting >_>

 

[Ussi]

Well, i'm gonna have to say while you are the top level of play for Pikachu, you could just be good at MUs but bias.


If MUs were like how san won with Ike, Ike's ratios be so messed up (overly good) sort of like that.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

exactly, that is always the problem with matchups. top players tend to have VASTLY differnet views then the rest. some would argue that only the top level matters, i say the most common level matters which isnt top. you eventually reach a point where you transcend matchups and they dont matter as much anymore. esam is at that level, noone else is

 

[Nordal]

Shouldn't matchup ratios reflect how your character's tools fair vs the other character's tools when both are played correctly (aka top level play)? The tools you have at your disposal don't change no matter what level of play you're at, it's how you use them.

 

[Ussi]

Mindgames can make use of poor tools/options that wouldn't be usable in lower levels of play normally. Like pika's jab

 

[PZ]

Wow...all that I read basically means you guyz arent complete idiots...Good Show!

 

[Nordal]

Jab is good though >_>

 

[PikaPika!]

MU is even. PIkachu ***** when they are separated, and it is really easy to separate them. Pikachu also has an easy time of running away when there are platforms with his QA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bFDFXJ-Vhc

I mean it's not like he dropped grabs or anything

 

[Syko_Lemming]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bFDFXJ-Vhc

I mean it's not like he dropped grabs or anything

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQQuMkriPuE

Shouldn't matchup ratios reflect how your character's tools fair vs the other character's tools when both are played correctly (aka top level play)? The tools you have at your disposal don't change no matter what level of play you're at, it's how you use them.

That's what I always assumed.

exactly, that is always the problem with matchups. top players tend to have VASTLY differnet views then the rest. some would argue that only the top level matters, i say the most common level matters which isnt top. you eventually reach a point where you transcend matchups and they dont matter as much anymore. esam is at that level, noone else is

The top level matters because that's what the worse players should be looking at to get better faster. ...and cause it's the top. They're proving that their way works.

It's not that esam and Co. have "transcended" matchups. They're playing the matchup more than we are. What do you think would happen if ESAM started approaching with sh'd bairs? He'd **** the bed because people would just learn to shield and punish. The top players don't make moves better, they just use them at more appropriate times.

We kinda need to catch up. Stop playing our game and start playing theirs(esam's, lol.) Cause it clearly works.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQQuMkriPuE





That's what I always assumed.





The top level matters because that's what the worse players should be looking at to get better faster. ...and cause it's the top. They're proving that their way works.

It's not that esam and Co. have "transcended" matchups. They're playing the matchup more than we are. What do you think would happen if ESAM started approaching with sh'd bairs? He'd **** the bed because people would just learn to shield and punish. The top players don't make moves better, they just use them at more appropriate times.

We kinda need to catch up. Stop playing our game and start playing theirs(esam's, lol.) Cause it clearly works.

i lold so hard XD

 

[Roller]

That second match with ESAM vs Ally doesn't really counter anything. Ally 2 stocks ESAM's pika game 1, then gets one stocked by him the other game it is pika vs ICs. Also, Ally is not even one of the top ICs. ESAM is THE best pika. The fact that he 2 stocked ESAM's pika with ICs at all in that match is silly. And I'm not even going to get started on the pound set, despite that being hard evidence that not even ESAM is good at the matchup.

As for your other matches, ESAM. Wasn't you vs Hylian on an hdtv? As an IC main. That matters a great deal. Also, Hylian has lost to KID's sonic as well. On the same day, I 3 stocked him. Hylian has very off days. Ally DIDN'T know what he was doing in that Pound set, that much was clear, and you lost anyway. And I have not seen or heard of you playing Lain in a serious set.

 

[AllyKnight]

So I guess none of the ICs players I have ever played know what they are doing.

Hylian doesn't
Ally doesn't
Lain doesn't

Oh well, I guess we must all bow down to your greater knowledge of the MU seeing as you are the ONLY one who knows anything about it, right Roller?

Who are you trying to say we don't know ****? Did I lose to Zex unlike you? No, means you musn't know much either about the MK MU (ESAM's counter argument, I beat M2K ! good job no one really cares). FL"s cockyness sometimes is really annoying as you guys aren't doing much nowadays without disrespecting the ones who don't act cocky. Not because it looks like we're not doing what we're supposed to do means we don't know our stuff. I can't cg some chars but woooow that's it. ZEX ZEX ZEX. My accomplishment with ICS are by FAR superior than yours. Talk with results, not trash. ALSO I don't have any pikachu to play with or can't seem to have myself camp for 5000 years. I don't play this game to be boring.

 

[PZ]

O...the day is over=(
Owell back to the old lovable days of stupidity.

 

[lain]

Who are you trying to say we don't know ****? Did I lose to Zex unlike you? No, means you musn't know much either about the MK MU (ESAM's counter argument, I beat M2K ! good job no one really cares). FL"s cockyness sometimes is really annoying as you guys aren't doing much nowadays without disrespecting the ones who don't act cocky. Not because it looks like we're not doing what we're supposed to do means we don't know our stuff. I can't cg some chars but woooow that's it. ZEX ZEX ZEX. My accomplishment with ICS are by FAR superior than yours. Talk with results, not trash. ALSO I don't have any pikachu to play with or can't seem to have myself camp for 5000 years. I don't play this game to be boring.

+1 for truthiness

Also, we've never played Esam. But I would make you cry.

 

[Pikabunz]

Sounds like ESAM was being sarcastic.

 

[PZ]

Wow im so bad with ice climbers that nana is 6 frames ahead of me<.<

 

[Syko_Lemming]

Wow im so bad with ice climbers that nana is 6 frames ahead of me<.<

Nana being 6 frames ahead would be amazing

 

[PZ]

It's true...everytime I attempt to pshield a projectile nana does but I eat w/e.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Damn, Ally going mad hard. Canadians must not know how to detect sarcasm over the internet

Read what I said again, except after you are done, reverse what you think it means and that is what I actually meant. I'm calling you a good player, but obviously, based on Roller's standards, you aren't good since you get hit by T-jolts and separated.

YoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

 

[Roller]

OK. I'm stepping in now. Nobody outside of Ally and MI gets to use the "YooOOoOoOo." Also, Ally ***** you with ICs without cgs at a national; the following time you played in a MM he 2 stocked you. You. The best pika. With a character that is not his best, second best, or even third best character.

He is also not a top ICs player. He also (to my knowledge) has little to no legitimate ICs vs pika experience; as he always went snake back in the day against Anther. And yes, you got some jolts in. He STILL ***** you.

That's how bad this matchup is. It is completely ridiculous and I will character lock MM any pika in it for $20 to make the point.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

OK. I'm stepping in now. Nobody outside of Ally and MI gets to use the "YooOOoOoOo." Also, Ally ***** you with ICs without cgs at a national; the following time you played in a MM he 2 stocked you. You. The best pika. With a character that is not his best, second best, or even third best character.

He is also not a top ICs player. He also (to my knowledge) has little to no legitimate ICs vs pika experience; as he always went snake back in the day against Anther. And yes, you got some jolts in. He STILL ***** you.

That's how bad this matchup is. It is completely ridiculous and I will character lock MM any pika in it for $20 to make the point.

hey you cool and all, and ima let you finish, but

YoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOo

 

[Pikabunz]

I don't think the MU is even, but I also don't think the MU is that bad. Pika does **** Nana pretty hard.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

any character ***** nana hard :/ the problem is separation. our grab to bthrow is a really damn good seperator, but imo we dont really have another viable separation tactic that doesnt require a really hard read XD

i also think pikachu is sub par against sopo compared to the rest of the cast. another reason why i like rob

 

[Cassio]

Ally and lain missing the obvious sarcasm. Also 99% sure ESAM beat zex with ICs :|.

Roller I think ESAM beat allys ICs at some point when they played at Genesis.

And Stealth I think its the opposite. Separating ICs isnt terribly difficult, but I rarely see pikachu players killing nana in one or two tries. He can do it but it you have to be very skilled at it.

Overall I think if the MU isnt even its only bc it takes less skill to win this MU with ICs.

 

[Roller]

if you grab to go for the bthrow when they are synched, the IC's can just spam forward on cstick so the other fsmashes you... Also, the pika shouldn't be able to get that close without getting hit with IB/blizzard/(pivot)grab.

EDIT: @Tag: In the Genesis MM they only played 2 games of that matchup. Ally 2 stocked him the first game, ESAM 1 stoked Ally in the other. And it is seperating the ICs enough that it actually matters which is difficult for pika.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

ive heard ics players say how pikas bthrow is easily fsmashed away but ill be honest even games i play vs ics i get bthrow all the time unpunished XD same for virtually every match i saw played in the pika room pika vs ics. just saying, its a lot better then what ive heard every ics player say XD

 

[Cassio]

When you grab popo, nana does random things. On occasion she'll actually be smart and fsmash. Its less likely youll grab nana, but fsmash isnt too reliable in this situation since ICs cant fsmash on reaction, and if predicted ICs probably pivot grabbed you instead.

Grabbing ICs works when ICs just try to ps everything and go for grabs. If they are on the offensive or desynched then you have to try something else.

 

[Nordal]

Who are you trying to say we don't know ****? Did I lose to Zex unlike you? No, means you musn't know much either about the MK MU (ESAM's counter argument, I beat M2K ! good job no one really cares). FL"s cockyness sometimes is really annoying as you guys aren't doing much nowadays without disrespecting the ones who don't act cocky. Not because it looks like we're not doing what we're supposed to do means we don't know our stuff. I can't cg some chars but woooow that's it. ZEX ZEX ZEX. My accomplishment with ICS are by FAR superior than yours. Talk with results, not trash. ALSO I don't have any pikachu to play with or can't seem to have myself camp for 5000 years. I don't play this game to be boring.

Please Ally, tell us how you really feel.

 

[Roller]

Don't be hasslin' mah boy Ally.

Also. I'm fairly sure that once a player initiates a throw while holding popo, nana begins to follow instructions. Not 100% on that though, I'll check up on it. But in any case you can buffer the input when you know you're getting grabbed, just like you can pre-emptively mash vs say... ICs when you know they are about to grab you.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yet i never see it effectively punished. just saying