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poor tutu I asked him to help. I think he would say youre a much better player than Ed. I agree with all your guys' points tho.
Also difficulty scale and MU scale are more or less the same thing, but yeah I changed what the numbers meant so they would be more helpful in terms of how difficult a matchup should be so its ok to think of it that way.
I like my scale more than the MU charts...but Ill just leave it at that.
btw Prime says yoshi is -2 but is being a scaredipoo about it.
Still would like to hear opinions on the -2's being our most difficult MUs. In particular that lucario isnt on the same level as the other three.
Yeah....he struggles to kill. We can be at a 50% deficit...but we will still manage to kill them first and then tack on damage before we die...just because yoshi's kill moves are THAT telegraphed.
I think Primes success against polt could definitely warrant a +2. My only issue is that no ones played delta yet, and delta has been known to have better success in some MUs since he has a different playstyle. Results are very skewed though.
I just wanna be part of the group here and say that I came back staying at last hit on my last stock for over a minute and a half in my most recent set against a yoshi that's "ranked higher" than me on the PR.
I don't remember his lead though, it was I believe more than a full stock.
Well it might end up being stupid and the explanation isnt simple (aka im lazy). Let me try it next time I see anuar/rich again to make sure. Does anyone have any recent videos of this MU? I want to try and compare with whats usually done.
Edit: oh, but I will say this. People need to start abusing the hitbox on QA more in general. Like, I know randomly tossing out QAs will probably get you messed up, but timing it so the hitbox collides with projectiles/attacks can put you in a favorable close range situation from long distance.
Is F-throw -> U-smash a true combo on Olimar? Fino kept whistling then punishing me.
Something I started doing was fthrow -> run shield like I do against Marth's, he'd Whistle then I'd get dthrow -> nair or u-air -> footstool depending on %. It ended up being more of a mix-up because he would then do fair on my shield and my in-shield SDI usually wasn't enough to get him =(
yay its out finally. all our hard work. and you can grab the whistle strongbad. also if they hit up cstick in the middle of QAC cassio they desynch usmash, its super gay
i do not know, when i properly buffered dash to usmash i dont remember fino whistling it correctly. i would have to test next time fino actually comes over
yay its out finally. all our hard work. and you can grab the whistle strongbad. also if they hit up cstick in the middle of QAC cassio they desynch usmash, its super gay
I was testing this the other day. If pikachu has a hitbox then it doesnt hit. The problem is his hitbox is only there for 4 frames.
SB I think you have to buffer it correctly. Most dash > usmashs dont require that you buffer them. Kind of like the Ike CG where it doesnt seem to work if it isnt buffered.
i do not know, when i properly buffered dash to usmash i dont remember fino whistling it correctly. i would have to test next time fino actually comes over
if that is the case, i just dont remember any recent time you whistled mu usmash when i buffered but w/e, i like getting another free grab to usmash sometimes anyways
Peach:
Probably the worst thing Im seeing in matches now is when people die to peach at 100% or below 120% in general. For this to happen two things have to occur, a hard read + bad DI. The first is bad enough but in combination with the second this really should never be happening.
I think attempting to live between 150-170% is a reasonable expectation, and if youre dying before that you should start assessing what situations are occurring to cause this to happen. Some of the most frequent I see are QA into her fair, jumping into her fair, and (literally) running into or spot dodging her charged fsmash. All of these should be easily avoidable if youre paying attention during the match, and remember to DI. The kill moves arent exactly quick.
Olimar:
Maybe some of this stuff is known, but Ill go over it anyways. Theres two big mistakes people make when playing olimar:
-playing scared
-playing pseudo scared
By the first I generally mean people being so scared of olimar they rarely approach and rely on jolt camping. By the latter I mean being so scared of olimar's neutral strength that they constantly attempt or look for attempts to dash at olimar and be aggressive only to get stuffed
Jolting and dashing constantly are already bad imo and are even worse in this MU. I think one thing thats sort of been ignored by everyone in general is how bad olimar's priority is. In relation to pikachu, though pikas range is pretty bad most the time his priority is pretty excellent against oncoming non-disjointed attacks. So my approach has generally been to abuse this fact, after watching and hearing how larry has a lot of success vs olis compared to other falcos I decided to see how itd work out for pika.
Olimars lineup:
Unless you can learn to watch olimars line-up this is a MU that will likely always be bad for you. Be aware of the general attributes of the pikmin and what their purpose is. I know theres a lot discussion about yellows being bad for pikachu, but I think this is a myth (with one exception), just never try to kill yellows with electric attacks.
-Purples: Purples are the biggest nightmare for pikachu and imo are what make this MU so difficult, and each additional purple pikmin makes the MU that much harder (imo the MU feels like its even or pikachus favor without them). By far this is the pikmin you want to be aware of the most. You need extreme caution when approaching an olimar with a purple next in line and probably want to just not approach at all. Instead, force him to either toss it or move it to the back of his lineup, or force him to approach. This goes x1000000 at kill percents, never die to a purple pikmin. A purple pikmin can kill you 30% earlier in my experience than you wouldve normally died. Thankfully its range is horrid. If olimar has two purples in his lineup, approaching becomes difficult but possible. If he has 3-4 then you probably need to try and kill a purple or two. 4-5 youre probably screwed in general, lol. If you ever have the opportunity, kill a purple with fsmash, just make sure youre not vulnerable as you do it. Ill be bringing up purples again.
Jolting and dashing:
Never jolt or dash without a purpose or without knowing what you are doing. I know its an obvious statement but its especially true for this MU. One exception though is if olimar jumps. A smart olimar wont jump too often when youre on the ground, but if he does your options from dash >>> his options at that moment since it basically removes his grabs from the equation. Always look for olimars that jump (if youre on the ground), usually Ill dash upsmash but be aware of his fair in particular. One exception to this is if olimar has a purple he can use for pikmin toss, dont ever dash approach (or approach really) in that situation.
Priority:
-Quick Attack: First keep in mind that this is QA when it has its hitbox, so learn to time QA's so the hitbox is out at crucial moments. Dont do something stupid like hang over olimar during its transition phase or youll get wrecked. Quick attack beats olimars upsmash, clashes with down smash, and is beat by fsmash. It beats all his pikmin aerials except uair (although sometimes it will beat uair, depends on what frame it hits). You can be grabbed out of QA. It will usually beat uptilt, usually lose to nair, and clashes with his tilts. QA is a great tool for closing distance against olimar, but dont be dumb. Be aware of when it will win and when it wont. In particular QAing above the ground (or up then down) when olimar is grounded is very handy, since most his grounded options are capable of beating or clashing with QA. Although smart use of a grounded QA can also be handy sometimes. A note in general though, dont be linear with its use, toss in baits and angle mixups, QA in place, backwards, etc. Also, never QA if he has a purple next in line (seeing a trend?)
-Jab: Jab beats every single one of olimars grounded options except spaced grabs. Meaning you wont be able to just walk up to olimar and jab...because youll get grabbed. What it does mean is that pikachu can be a little riskier with his approaches, because jab can provide a good option to cover mistakes or in lots of other situations (be creative). Dont stop jabbing until you see him trying to create distance or youll eat a smash attack. Also this works on purples too! Dont try and jab aerials btw, lol.
-Fair/Bair:
Pikas bair beats essentially all of olimars attacks (not grabs) as long as the hitboxs clash (purples included). Pikas fair beats everything (including purples) except bair. Theres also the one exception about yellow pikmin here as well, yellow fsmash beats fair (but not upsmash for some odd reason). In general these moves are better than other moves because they will clash with the pikmin hitbox and then either hit olimar since his body is not a hitbox, or the pikmins attack will and and then pikas attack will hit olimar. Another thing about fair is that its relatively safe on shield of spaced correctly (with jab being your quickest option after landing). By spaced i mean a retreating fair, if done correctly cannot be usmashed oos.
Edgeguarding:
I wont say too much here except that olimar should be dying fairly often once hes offstage. Id say around 25% of the time if not more, and he should always take damage coming back. Remember which attacks we have that will beat his. One thing I will add though is since fair/bair beat his uair, you shouldnt be afraid to go off stage when hes on the edge. Hit him with fair/bair or steal the ledge (by quarter circle snapping or QA) then attack him. Another thing ill note is that getting off the ledge against olimar is really hard.
Approaching a grounded olimar:
As always be aware of his lineup. If he has a purple he can stuff just about any approach you make unless youre being extremely clever. However do not be afraid to approach an olimar that does not have a purple quickly accesible in his lineup.. Watch his lineup to see when you can approach. Dashing will likely get you pivot grabbed, even if you try to toss out an aerial at the end. Mindless jolting wont get you far. Speed walking up to an olimar without fear of purples and quick attacks are both fairly reliable. Use nair to get pikmin off you as necessary. At a certain distance pikmin tossing becomes unsafe for them (if they do it punish them) and youre now in a zone where its pikachu vs pivot grab. If youve made it this far youre in a good spot.
Olimar in CQC:
Im not quite sure how to describe this situation since its really case by case. Essentially once youre inside you want to abuse olimars slow attacks with your speedy ones, and your better priority against his, and your greater amount of options to his few (though very good ones), to work your way around his range. Your always safe zone is outside his grab range. Pivot grab should never get you if youre not dashing, and all of his spaced grabs can be avoided on reaction and punished if you become familiar with situations to look out for them. Olimar appears to have poor traction, so a spaced fsmash on his shield is safe as far as Ive experienced and can tell. This is good because it also beats his pikmin as well and will continue to hit him (sans yellow). Almost any attack will beat his upsmash. Ftilt is great and wont be mentioned enough for how good a tool it is, it will kill his pikmin attacks and works nicely from the ground if he tries to approach from the air, though is bad against shield. Dash attack can also be pretty good at higher percents. Be sure to use all of pikachus options even if I didnt mention them, mixups and RPS situations are still a bnb part of pikas game.
Keep pressure on:
Another obvious once, but once you land those hits and get inside keep the pressure on and get him in the air/offstage. IMO simply hitting him is better than trying to do specific combos or attacks because his ability to reset situations is that bad.
Most importantly; this MU requires practice and experience.
Seriously, when I played Olimar as a secondary I HATED white pikmin. They're really easy to kill with anything (4% health, IIRC), and although they can get some good latch damage, most people will take pains to avoid them, AND they're completely useless outside of latches and grabs, there were quite a few times I had a smash that failed to kill only because I executed it with a white pikmin. Even if one does hit you, just N-air, and you'll take maybe 5% damage total from it. They're only really deadly if you let them grab you (they have the best pummel period), or just let one latch on and sit there for a while like an idiot.
Perhaps, but when the next pikmin in Olimar's chain is white and you're at close range, the risk/reward is slanted in your favor. Even at mid-long range they aren't that terrifying like Strong Bad suggested.
Either I was correct in saying that Sheilda (for the point of the discussion Zelda is just a worse version of sheilda) wasn't THAT horrible against us. Or Z is free. Or Ven is just some incredible, national level player, who places below nobodies regularly. I'm not sure which answer is correct. But I bet it's one of the first 2.
Ven is an incredibly player. He has wins on fairly good people including rich and is potentially the best zelda in the US. That also wasnt the worst loss.
Im honestly perplexed how you guys have such a hard time with this MU. The only way peach has an advantage is if she stuffs you with a stichface or a bombomb. Its too bad Raz's quitting now my only practice for the MU is gone unless I can convince slayerz to play me more.
I asked him to help. I think he would say youre a much better player than Ed. I agree with all your guys' points tho.
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