Character Matchups & Strategies, v.2

[Nordal]

If I'm ever back in socal (aka rarely), you can play my Peach. It's decent vs pikachu.

 

[Cassio]

^lemme know.

Also as of today Im fairly confident saying now that olimar-pika isnt pikas worst MU, and that it likely should only be +1 olimar.

 

[Pikabunz]

What happened today that made you think that?

 

[Nicholas1024]

Can you teach that matchup to Esam then? XD Also really interested in hearing your reasoning.

 

[Cassio]

Well even though Ive played a lot of olis lately (offline and online) I was hesitant to oppose everyone elses experiences and I hadnt played rich in awhile, and he was originally the reason I felt it to be really bad. I finally got a chance to play and speak with Rich. I also had a chance to speak with Z about it as well and have spoken with Anuar about it in the past. Z thinks its even, the rest of us thinks its just slight oli favor. IMO its actually not all that frustrating either and one of pikas more fun MUs.

 

[infiniteV115]

So what would you say is Pika's worst MU? Lucario? G&W? Peach?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

grab climbers.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Pikachu has no terribly bad MUs. Olimar is still probably our worse at top level play with a -1. IMO we only lose 3 MUs: Diddy, Lucario, and Olimar. ICs is still too hard to tell since I don't have enough experience and just played Kakera on a terrible stage for that MU.

 

[PZ]

Pikachu can't approach IC's...how is that still too hard to tell?
Meh most wifi lucarios suck than.
MGW I have already thought this over and decided that fearing him kills me more than going all out.
Diddy...haha I hate that mu
Olimar is pretty even although I can't find myself saying that it is pika's or oli's favor...

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Not having an approach = losing MU? I guess Falco loses like all of his MUs, same for Olimar.

-_-

 

[PZ]

Not having an approach = losing MU? I guess Falco loses like all of his MUs, same for Olimar.

-_-

Meh as a aggressive player that is how I feel but I now see your point:<
No wait as falcon I feel that way nvm in pikachu's case he can camp and take the lead in ways . Noticing that now I feel I fail as my main.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

*pats head* It's ok, it's just a bad mentality. Besides, everybody TECHNICALLY has approaches against every other character, but the trick is whether or not they work.

 

[Cassio]

ESAM you dont have any experience vs olimars either. Although I agree that not being able to practice against diddy/ics/olis consistently at high level sucks. But right now Im very confident that its not our worst MU and that its very managable, but it does require an abnormal amount of MU knowledge and likely experience. I think me and Z just live in an area where weve been able to get that.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I don't get practice against any of them I'm just like top 5 in the world so I'm a straight beast in this **** *****.

Hell, I don't actually get top level practice of ANY character short of Snake, ZSS, and Lucas -_-

 

[Stealth Raptor]

ice climbers and olimar are still tied as worse in my mind, though im beginning to feel that olimar is easier then ics if you know how to approach it right LOL

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

ICs are pretty easy if you know how to not approach right

 

[Stealth Raptor]

if i knew how to do that i would think different. lux makes me feel like every single attack pikachu has is completely unsafe on ics so i go rob and i generally do a stock better every time compared to using pikachu :/ been doing a lot of practice with fino and im really getting a better handle on the olimar matchup, starting to feel like an RPS matchup

 

[Cassio]

My personal list on MU difficulty:

Diddy Kong
GW
ICs
Olimar
Lucario

I know thats very likely not the true order, but I also dont really think pikachu has a worst MU, although it could be ICs at least at non top-level (I think its diddy but no one would agree with me). It just depends on style, knowledge, and experience imo.

Also stealth you were right about ROB, lol. I dont think hes that bad anymore, uairs so good in that MU.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

uair wrecks rob, it beats everything he has and puts him in bad positions all day, its really sick what pika can do to rob lol

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

@Truth you are just bad with items. If you start z-dropping and glide tossing forward and NO OTHER OPTIONS you will be way better in the MU.

G&W you have to be really patient and punish the stuff he does. You can't get too greedy with punishes, though, or you will just get sent flying in the air with up-b

Lucario is FRAY

 

[Stealth Raptor]

finally getting the glide toss consistent @.@ making such a huuuuge difference in the matchup

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah, it's sort of a big deal.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i just couldnt get the far timing down >.> finally got it tho so yay full control :D

 

[infiniteV115]

Is landing fair --> grab actually a true combo? I try it all the time and it never works ._.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

No, landing fair to ANYTHING never combos because of the ease of SDI.

 

[infiniteV115]

Assuming that they don't SDI (and they're still in front of me, in grab range) is there enough of a frame advantage to true combo into grab? Or do they have time to spotdodge/jump/roll?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Depends on the percent since the frame advantage we have increases as % goes on.

 

[Cassio]

It depends on a lot of things:

1. How floaty the character is (most important imo)
2. How many times fair hits
3. Their SDI
4. Their %

1. Floatiness is weird and can dictate your options. For instance on an average non SDId two hit fair I find upsmash to be really easy on olimar, but not on many other characters. Some characters seem easier to fair nair and others it seems like you can only dsmash.

2. How many times fair hits is the hardest to keep track of because theres a ton of subfactors, but its also the one you can control. Obviously the more hits the more knock back theyll have as well as time and hitstun to SDI. It can be weird, for instance if you do one hit fair and they SDI itll probably be easier for you to punish and give you more options, but if they dont SDI then its harder. Things like their character size also matter since youll hit less on smaller characters, and if youre going for a shield poke itll probably have a very low amount of hits. The other thing is you can fast fall at any time during fair to reduce the amount of times youll hit your opponent. Obviously choosing when you start fair will also have an affect. Typically youll hit with 2-3 hits with slow fall and 1-2 hits with fast fall (4 hits is very rare). 2 hits is probably the best overall.

3. Just something you have to watch. If youre punishing a laggy attack theyre probably going to SDI, and its probably better to minimize the hits. Watch how they SDI and react appropriately, dont forget you also have a small amount of control to move fair in a direction once it connects.

4. Just something to keep in mind as esams says because it does affect knockback and frame advantage.

Usually its a matter of experience and its becomes natural based on the circumstances what follow up is best, but its still good to keep the things you can control in mind.

 

[Pikabunz]

Buffering the grab helps a lot.

 

[AtneyB]

I'm pretty sure this has already been discussed somewhere but please, remind me what makes Pika-Marth even.

I really just don't get it.

Really.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

He can't shut us out well due to our speed and projectile.

We body him off-stage

He can't kill us reliably

Throw combos are nice

Just a summary

 

[AtneyB]

I already disagree with both your first and third point so well... I'm curious to see what's coming next/what actually makes these points likely true.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I mean, that's how I feel when I play against Marths...every one I've ever played. Maybe Mr. R is different, but against ya boi I didn't camp just because it was easy to get in. Work on your approaches, I guess. Once Pikachu gets in we give him a hell of a time, and up-b is normally quite predictable and super punishable.

 

[Nordal]

I actually think pikachu sliiiiiiiiiiiiiiightly beats marth, but there's little I can add on about the subject. We also **** his landings pretty hard.

 

[Cassio]

The MU sort of 'feels' like that to me too, but I also think most Marths suck at the MU. imo from videos and experience KillLock is the best marth at the pika MU and Kadaj is really close too.

Two things that can help with pikachu in spacing against Marth is that pikas fsmash outranges his everything, and Marth has a massive gap wherein we can run under his sh aerials. I think full hop aerials are pretty helpful too.

Also Marth has to be a bit lucky or the pika has to do something silly for him to kill early or even normal percents. This is a MU where pika is capable of living for quite awhile.

 

[AtneyB]

I can conceive Fsmash canbe usefull when Marth recovers or when is landing or to punish his upb fails, but... that's it. Fsmash is too slow/laggy and too punishable to be consider as a good move in this matchup imo.

And exploit the gaps Marth leaves seems to be the only thing Pika can do against him. Assuming the Marth actually leaves gaps, because idk how to punish like 90% of his moves, when well executed.

 

[Nordal]

You're talking like people about the MU when they were saying stuff like "if this is perfectly spaced you can't do anything".

The fact of the matter is not everything is perfectly spaced, ESPECIALLY against pikachu considering his run speed.
F smash is amazing in this matchup, but it's to punish landings. If you're using it to outprioritize then that's your choice in ground game gambling.

 

[Cassio]

^Id say its worthwhile against an expected (spaced) dtilt or DB as well. However you never want to do it if you expect a shield.

Atney it really depends on the situation. Both are tools that are simply an answer to a separate specific tool Marth has. tbh you can get away without using either, but the point is to limit or provoke Marth into second guessing his 'safe' options and to make your life easier.

When played properly Marth is going to rely more on his ground game, advancing fairs, or full hops in order to prevent pika from challenging his attacks or running under and hitting him. However thats only going to happen once he realizes he cant hover or fall a SH aerials because he will get punished for it, its a rather significant limitation of Marth's traditional tools that benefits pika.

The same is true of his attempts to outspace pika. If youre aware that hes simply spacing dtilts/advancing fairs/dancing blade/fsmash to keep you at bay and its working too well, its a very simple solution to step outside its range and fsmash whatever move he was going to toss out. Any smart marth wont predictably challenge fsmashs range with his own moves, but now youve forced Marth into a playstyle that is unable to rely on outspacing pika.

Of course if theyre adapting this means you have to as well. They arent holy grail solutions to the Marth MU, if they could answer everything on their own the MU would be solidly pikas favor. What they do is counter the areas youre likely having difficulty with so that he is forced to counter with something else that you can answer in return...and then you have a game of guesses for both players.

 

[AtneyB]

You're talking like people about the MU when they were saying stuff like "if this is perfectly spaced you can't do anything".

The fact of the matter is not everything is perfectly spaced, ESPECIALLY against pikachu considering his run speed.
F smash is amazing in this matchup, but it's to punish landings. If you're using it to outprioritize then that's your choice in ground game gambling.

I'm not talking like that, since I know Marth don't even have to space moves like Fair or Nair perfectlyto be safe. I remain doubtful about the fact to run into this matchup, especially for shield reasons (I've my shield on like 70% of the time in this matchup, maybe that's why I often fail).

Maybe you should concretely list me what options Pika has to counter/punish Marth's move to help me, because I feel like Pika can't do ish besides suffer the assaults, shield, and read a lot more than Marth have to.

To me, even matchup assumption is real bs. Won't talk about Pikachu favor thing...

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You watched me vs Leon, correct?

Listen, Leon (which I'm guessing is the Marth you are having trouble with) is probably just a smarter player than you so he is reading your options. Even MUs normally create the need for more reads in order to win. If he is choosing the option that beats yours, of course you are going to lose. It is a matter of smarts, Syd, and we can't teach that.

I mean what you are doing is like a mid-level MK saying "There is no way that MK doesn't lose a MU because I lose to a Snake and Falco main all the time!"