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Character Matchups & Strategies, v.2
- Thread starter ElNoNombreHombre
- Start date
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
very bad time to grab ics XD that was more a function of bad timing then of proof of it being a bad tactic
Ussi
Smash Legend
Yall need pummel before throwing
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Yeah, that F-smash happens sometimes.
I did MM Ally the morning after Genesis, and we ended up going 1-1 in Pika vs ICs. He ***** me first game because I'm silly and I suicided, and then the 2nd match was like 1 stock 50%.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQQuMkriPuE
Still even
Also, Roller, I like how you say "Ally isn't a top IC main" when I have beaten every other ICs I've ever played in tournament (I haven't played Lain in tournament, sadly). So please, enlighten me on the fact that you are the only one who knows how to play the IC vs Pika MU correctly.
****, maybe you should actually focus on getting better instead of learning one match-up that is almost pointless considering there are so few Pikachus.
I did MM Ally the morning after Genesis, and we ended up going 1-1 in Pika vs ICs. He ***** me first game because I'm silly and I suicided, and then the 2nd match was like 1 stock 50%.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQQuMkriPuE
Still even
Also, Roller, I like how you say "Ally isn't a top IC main" when I have beaten every other ICs I've ever played in tournament (I haven't played Lain in tournament, sadly). So please, enlighten me on the fact that you are the only one who knows how to play the IC vs Pika MU correctly.
****, maybe you should actually focus on getting better instead of learning one match-up that is almost pointless considering there are so few Pikachus.
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
ESAM, come back to BBR.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Why, character MUs are being discussed again, yes?
I can just PM you what you need.
I can just PM you what you need.
Roller
Smash Legend
Oh snap, the personal callouts. Also. Lain is better at the matchup than I am. And the only reason we haven't MM'd is because when I challenged you at Pound V, you said, "ok, let's make sure to get it in tomorrow." The next day you lost to Ally, then later when I went up to ask you to do our MM you're exact words were, "Are you gonna use ICs?" I said. "Well I meeeeean... They're my main?" verbatim. You shook your head and marched off.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Lol I didn't wanna play anybody after I lost to Ally.
50$ MM at Apex.
50$ MM at Apex.
Roller
Smash Legend
I said I would do $20 vs any pika. I'm not gonna do $50 vs you simply because a bad matchup doesn't mean a much better player can't beat the worse player.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Fair enough sir.
20 it is
20 it is
Ussi
Smash Legend
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
dat ninja edit for dat fail color tag
Ussi
Smash Legend
Typos vs Ussi is a 70:30 MU
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
That was nana being smart for once. But I tested this a few months ago, for sure nana does random stuff as soon as popo is grabbed. The best things she can do are fsmash and jab.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
its better to grab nana anyways, as grabbing popo and bthrowing draws nana into you AND she does random crap. grabbing nana normally leaves popo a ways from you and he normally wont react fast enough to stop you
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Yeah, I prefer grabbing nana always, as players have a, y'know, reaction time, as opposed to a cpu instantly reacting to "HEY HE IS GETTING THROWN" and hitting you out of it. It is also much more useful for nana to be off-stage with popo on stage (You can run off FF DJ thunder nana) than vice-versa, where you pretty much have to nair-plane her off the other side and hope she doesn't mindgame you.
PZ
Smash Lord
in conclusion nana will always have better reaction time than anything.
PikaPika!
Smash Ace
I'll take some more of your money Roller 
Roller
Smash Legend
Ayo. Be careful you don't fall for the slow hustle I've got goin' on with you.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
man im gonna take pikapikas money next time :D
Nordal
Smash Lord
Pikachu vs. Peach
Per request, since I was asked to write this and I don't have access to the little backroom thingy where matchup discussion takes place.
Oh boy Peach, where to begin, where to begin.
I guess I'll start with her float game, and how to counter it.
If she's facing you while floating she's either gonna Fair or Dair. She can try to just land for mindgames or w/e, but her fallspeed and our runspeed make this ineffective on repeated uses (assuming you adapt of course).
Fair: You beat it with your Fair or with tilts. It takes like 15 frames or so to come out, and Peach's float is slow. We have a fast run speed, and a Fair that comes out really fast and is a little disjointed. The point is to hit her before her Fair comes out (when she tries walling you or fishing for the kill or just Fair in general). They usually fail to SDI our fair because they'll be inputting in our direction for forward air. I supposed SH Uair could work, I just haven't tried it.
Angled up forward tilt will beat her Fair because of the hitbox. Peach swings up and then curves downward, and our forward tilt hits at the very last stop of Fair. I personally prefer forward air because it sets her into the air without her float.
If she hits your shield with Fair, treat it like mk's F Smash: it's a guessing game. That is, assuming she fast fell while performing it, otherwise you can grab her out of a PS (assuming it's not spaced, if it is whatever you do vs whatever she does after it is a guessing game).
Dair: Oh boy, Dair. The worst thing you could do against peach in general is just sit in your shield and hope they mispace their Dair so that you can get a free Nair/Uair out of shield on her. Of course that's always nice, but the majority of Peaches will space away from you towards the end of the attack. How you treat it depends on the spacing and the float height. Fair OoS is an option, as are the previous stated out of shield aerials that would counter poorly spaced Dairs. If she's trying to zone you with Dair, I did see a silly little thing that Truth and K Prime did vs her: FH Dair. I guess it works, but FH Dair isn't very effective in general simply because of it's awkward positioning. You can land on her from above with Nair if she's Dairing below you trying to catch a predicted air dodge. Peaches that try to Dair waaaaay above you to zone you out can be Uaired (depending on the angle), or thundered since float is slow and Dair lasts a long time (meaning no airdodge!).
F Smash: Punishing options are dependent on her F smashes spacing, and which of the three gets pulled. I can't really do a writeup on something completely random. Watch out for tipper racket, **** hurts.
Bair: Peach's Bair is good for walling. It's a high priority attack with decent range and a long lasting hitbox. It will clash/beat our Fair, can hit us twice (as can Nair), and do some other silly stuff like moving Peach's model/hurtbox, making her ground game more difficult to punish when it's used during a retreating float (a la Illmatic). That being said, it's not very good on shield.... at all. Peaches who try to land with falling bair can be down smashed. In fact, I think (note that I'm not sure about Dair on this one) that all her aerials can be punished when landing with d smash (when you're underneath her). Just make sure to react fast enough when she drops her float.
Turnips: Thank god turnips suck *** now. You can catch them with Fair (and if she's glidetossing forward she'll get hit), instant throw them, catch them normally or whatever. Turnips aren't a big issue, but I would like to know what we can legitimately combo into from them, if anyone is willing to do some research. When she's holding a turnip she's kind've vulnerable to Fair. If she glide tosses forward, you can catch it on reaction and hit her. If she hides in shield, she can't do much except float nair out of shield (which only two peaches, including myself, do consistently from what I've seen). If she tries an aerial approach with them we can catch it with Fair and most likely get her as well, or just instant throw it back. If she glide tosses backwards then she's trying to bait you into something.
Down Tilt: It makes both of us slide! It doesn't really give us much of a problem either, but it is a spike hitbox and can set up for nasty combos so look out.
Down Smash: Fast attack, good at shield poking and comboing (surprisingly), but very punishable if you shield all of it. Just up smash her for it.
Uair juggling: I usually clash with Peach's Uair when I do landing Dair. Be careful not to Dair her if she's on the ground. Her up tilt beats every Dair in the game and her up smash could get her a very much needed early kill on pikachu.
Uhm, that's all I'll write about for specific moves anyways. The main pros and cons of the matchup go something like this:
Pros:
-We **** her startup time
-Combo her almost as hard as she combos us
-Can juggle her
-Can shield pressure her as well
-Kill earlier
Cons:
-We get ***** priority wise (our hitboxes will rarely beat hers, only exceptions are like forward smashing her ground game/ground float aerials and some other stuff).
-We get comboed hard
-We die earlier for whatever reason (at least I feel that way vs Peach)
-Our amazing spotdodge is essentially neutralized in this matchup since her hitboxes just eat it up
-Our landings get ***** by float aerials
Anyhoo, the matchup is completely even. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just silly, or belongs in the kitchen (Hi Nicole!
).
Per request, since I was asked to write this and I don't have access to the little backroom thingy where matchup discussion takes place.
Oh boy Peach, where to begin, where to begin.
I guess I'll start with her float game, and how to counter it.
If she's facing you while floating she's either gonna Fair or Dair. She can try to just land for mindgames or w/e, but her fallspeed and our runspeed make this ineffective on repeated uses (assuming you adapt of course).
Fair: You beat it with your Fair or with tilts. It takes like 15 frames or so to come out, and Peach's float is slow. We have a fast run speed, and a Fair that comes out really fast and is a little disjointed. The point is to hit her before her Fair comes out (when she tries walling you or fishing for the kill or just Fair in general). They usually fail to SDI our fair because they'll be inputting in our direction for forward air. I supposed SH Uair could work, I just haven't tried it.
Angled up forward tilt will beat her Fair because of the hitbox. Peach swings up and then curves downward, and our forward tilt hits at the very last stop of Fair. I personally prefer forward air because it sets her into the air without her float.
If she hits your shield with Fair, treat it like mk's F Smash: it's a guessing game. That is, assuming she fast fell while performing it, otherwise you can grab her out of a PS (assuming it's not spaced, if it is whatever you do vs whatever she does after it is a guessing game).
Dair: Oh boy, Dair. The worst thing you could do against peach in general is just sit in your shield and hope they mispace their Dair so that you can get a free Nair/Uair out of shield on her. Of course that's always nice, but the majority of Peaches will space away from you towards the end of the attack. How you treat it depends on the spacing and the float height. Fair OoS is an option, as are the previous stated out of shield aerials that would counter poorly spaced Dairs. If she's trying to zone you with Dair, I did see a silly little thing that Truth and K Prime did vs her: FH Dair. I guess it works, but FH Dair isn't very effective in general simply because of it's awkward positioning. You can land on her from above with Nair if she's Dairing below you trying to catch a predicted air dodge. Peaches that try to Dair waaaaay above you to zone you out can be Uaired (depending on the angle), or thundered since float is slow and Dair lasts a long time (meaning no airdodge!).
F Smash: Punishing options are dependent on her F smashes spacing, and which of the three gets pulled. I can't really do a writeup on something completely random. Watch out for tipper racket, **** hurts.
Bair: Peach's Bair is good for walling. It's a high priority attack with decent range and a long lasting hitbox. It will clash/beat our Fair, can hit us twice (as can Nair), and do some other silly stuff like moving Peach's model/hurtbox, making her ground game more difficult to punish when it's used during a retreating float (a la Illmatic). That being said, it's not very good on shield.... at all. Peaches who try to land with falling bair can be down smashed. In fact, I think (note that I'm not sure about Dair on this one) that all her aerials can be punished when landing with d smash (when you're underneath her). Just make sure to react fast enough when she drops her float.
Turnips: Thank god turnips suck *** now. You can catch them with Fair (and if she's glidetossing forward she'll get hit), instant throw them, catch them normally or whatever. Turnips aren't a big issue, but I would like to know what we can legitimately combo into from them, if anyone is willing to do some research. When she's holding a turnip she's kind've vulnerable to Fair. If she glide tosses forward, you can catch it on reaction and hit her. If she hides in shield, she can't do much except float nair out of shield (which only two peaches, including myself, do consistently from what I've seen). If she tries an aerial approach with them we can catch it with Fair and most likely get her as well, or just instant throw it back. If she glide tosses backwards then she's trying to bait you into something.
Down Tilt: It makes both of us slide! It doesn't really give us much of a problem either, but it is a spike hitbox and can set up for nasty combos so look out.
Down Smash: Fast attack, good at shield poking and comboing (surprisingly), but very punishable if you shield all of it. Just up smash her for it.
Uair juggling: I usually clash with Peach's Uair when I do landing Dair. Be careful not to Dair her if she's on the ground. Her up tilt beats every Dair in the game and her up smash could get her a very much needed early kill on pikachu.
Uhm, that's all I'll write about for specific moves anyways. The main pros and cons of the matchup go something like this:
Pros:
-We **** her startup time
-Combo her almost as hard as she combos us
-Can juggle her
-Can shield pressure her as well
-Kill earlier
Cons:
-We get ***** priority wise (our hitboxes will rarely beat hers, only exceptions are like forward smashing her ground game/ground float aerials and some other stuff).
-We get comboed hard
-We die earlier for whatever reason (at least I feel that way vs Peach)
-Our amazing spotdodge is essentially neutralized in this matchup since her hitboxes just eat it up
-Our landings get ***** by float aerials
Anyhoo, the matchup is completely even. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just silly, or belongs in the kitchen (Hi Nicole!
I'm just kidding by the way, the secretary's desk will due just fine
Roller
Smash Legend
There are some things I really like about that chart in comparison to older ones... And some things I think are not at all correct.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I wonder if I can leak the current chart we have.
As things are going, we will have 4, 5, or 6 losing MUs.
As things are going, we will have 4, 5, or 6 losing MUs.
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
I wanted to start to create a MU chart that was relevant specifically for all Pikas trying to judge how difficult a MU should be. This would exclude future potential but include everything up to the current metagame, with a strong nod towards higherish level play but not based exclusively on ESAM.
I also tried to force even MUs. With that in mind, the numbers dont exactly match those of the BBR MU chart. Anything between -1's and +1 could be considered "even" as pika should not be particularly hindered by his -1's and vice versa for the +1s as the difference is almost not worth mentioning.
What can be taken away though are that his -2's are MUs pika should be particularly concerned about coming across in tournament even including sufficient MU knowledge and experience with them.
But yeah, its a work in progress and independent of the BBR chart, so feel free to add thoughts, criticisms, etc. since Ive been pulling ideas from what others have been saying.
I also tried to force even MUs. With that in mind, the numbers dont exactly match those of the BBR MU chart. Anything between -1's and +1 could be considered "even" as pika should not be particularly hindered by his -1's and vice versa for the +1s as the difference is almost not worth mentioning.
What can be taken away though are that his -2's are MUs pika should be particularly concerned about coming across in tournament even including sufficient MU knowledge and experience with them.
But yeah, its a work in progress and independent of the BBR chart, so feel free to add thoughts, criticisms, etc. since Ive been pulling ideas from what others have been saying.
PZ
Smash Lord
When I face a pika on aib again im gonna make sure I runaway<.<(falcon's point of view)
O and utilt/bair
O and utilt/bair
Roller
Smash Legend
Peach should definitely be -1... So should toon link. Toon link outcamps us, outranges, and has more priority due to his disjointed hitboxes. He's also mobile enough to weave in and out of range without much trouble. His only real difficulty in the matchup is killing assuming he doesn't get an easy spotdodge/roll read with usmash.
Shelda should only be +1 imo. I've seen Tutu beat enough pikachus to know the matchup is not THAT easy. Zelda at low percents makes pika's cg irrelevant in the mu, which is why I think people consider the mu to be so in pikas favor. But if you take out that ability by starting Zelda, then just switching after landing a smash (everyone gets hit with one eventually) an sheik can ftilt lock us into smash attacks/aerials. Needles allow sheik the luxury not to be forced into approaching, and Din's fire as Zelda utterly destroys our camping. The matchup is not so cut and dry.
I would say DDD is just +1, but I can see +2 if you are well versed in the mu.
Yoshi I feel is even at best. He can cg us. (into usmash? could be wrong) His eggs > tjolt. His pivotgrab beats all of our approaches, and his neutral b gives him a strong option for getting in on us. Footstool kills and being able to punish him so easily for using his shield are the only things keeping this mu from us losing fairly substantially.
Shelda should only be +1 imo. I've seen Tutu beat enough pikachus to know the matchup is not THAT easy. Zelda at low percents makes pika's cg irrelevant in the mu, which is why I think people consider the mu to be so in pikas favor. But if you take out that ability by starting Zelda, then just switching after landing a smash (everyone gets hit with one eventually) an sheik can ftilt lock us into smash attacks/aerials. Needles allow sheik the luxury not to be forced into approaching, and Din's fire as Zelda utterly destroys our camping. The matchup is not so cut and dry.
I would say DDD is just +1, but I can see +2 if you are well versed in the mu.
Yoshi I feel is even at best. He can cg us. (into usmash? could be wrong) His eggs > tjolt. His pivotgrab beats all of our approaches, and his neutral b gives him a strong option for getting in on us. Footstool kills and being able to punish him so easily for using his shield are the only things keeping this mu from us losing fairly substantially.
Leaf.
Gets up to speed!
I pretty much agree with the Shelda stuff, but I don't think Dins will destroy our camping. Yes, it's better, but I don't think by a LOT.
Nordal
Smash Lord
I should read Roller's matchup discussion posts high. They'll either make sense, or become even funnier.
Roller
Smash Legend
YooOOoOOOoooooOo
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
dins is so easy to deal with, its not even funny x.x
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Din's is only viable for Zelda to outcamp Pika with at really long distances. And even then, it's more of a stalemate since the explosion is braindead easy to avoid/cancel with aerials.
At close or mid range (and when I say "mid", I mean that very loosely), it's useless. Pika doesn't even have to fully approach for it to become dangerous for her to use it.
At close or mid range (and when I say "mid", I mean that very loosely), it's useless. Pika doesn't even have to fully approach for it to become dangerous for her to use it.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Sheik gets *****. Zelda gets ***** almost as bad. She doesn't actually have anything reliable at all. Sheik even out of CG %s isn't a factor. She gets GR > Dacus, but that won't happen on like...any stage realistically. You are dumb for thinking Din's fire does anything. Just shield it...or just walk in and shield whenever it is close becuase you can do that. Din's fire is actually really really really bad against practically everybody. People don't realize you can just throw out a move and it clinks (No damage).
TL outcamps us, but he does **** damage. When we get in, we do a lot of damage, or at least enough to compensate for what we took trying to get in. IMO it is Pikachu's most most most even MU since Stages don't really affect anything. Pikachu is mobile enough not to get screwed over by camping, and he is strong enough that when we do our damage we put TL in a really ****ty position. Pikachu is also one of the best characters at punishing landings, which ALL characters must do. TL doesn't even have multiple jumps, so we will punish his landing more times than not.
Peach, if you play her like most other characters, beats us. However, we have to play differently. We have to throw out preemptive attacks (that aren't very punishable by peach) in order to shut down her aerial game. It works.
TL outcamps us, but he does **** damage. When we get in, we do a lot of damage, or at least enough to compensate for what we took trying to get in. IMO it is Pikachu's most most most even MU since Stages don't really affect anything. Pikachu is mobile enough not to get screwed over by camping, and he is strong enough that when we do our damage we put TL in a really ****ty position. Pikachu is also one of the best characters at punishing landings, which ALL characters must do. TL doesn't even have multiple jumps, so we will punish his landing more times than not.
Peach, if you play her like most other characters, beats us. However, we have to play differently. We have to throw out preemptive attacks (that aren't very punishable by peach) in order to shut down her aerial game. It works.
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
I'll move TL around. I was trying to force evens, but I guess it cant be helped.
Shield idk about. Finding a shiek or zelda is hard enough without finding a shiek/zelda. Only reason Im hesitant to move it is bc Im not sure if it can be said to be as hard as pit and our other +1s. I do think zelda's MU with pika is a little underrated...but +2 is fine
And lol at peach, only because theres an enormous post at the top of the page about that.
btw does everyone agree with the -2's being the hardest? I feel like overall I see less success from pikas vs these characters compared to the rest of the cast, and its in line with popularly labeled bad MUs. I also think oli is the worst but not significantly worse than ICs or diddy, esp considering the enormous lack of evidence and anther convincing MW olis + logic this MU was even. I didnt include lucario bc ppl seem to think thats been a lot easier lately and doing well against them once the MU is learned aka he doesnt really stop pikas from doing well.
Lastly I didnt consider potential for improvement at all. I know we have ideas for how MUs (our bad ones in particular) can be improved, and theres definitely a lot of room for that especially less played MUs (like oli imo), but thats going to be on all of us to show it. On the opposite end I excluded that same improvement potential from the opposing side as well so things like "X character should be harder if played this way" wont be included either.
Shield idk about. Finding a shiek or zelda is hard enough without finding a shiek/zelda. Only reason Im hesitant to move it is bc Im not sure if it can be said to be as hard as pit and our other +1s. I do think zelda's MU with pika is a little underrated...but +2 is fine
And lol at peach, only because theres an enormous post at the top of the page about that.
btw does everyone agree with the -2's being the hardest? I feel like overall I see less success from pikas vs these characters compared to the rest of the cast, and its in line with popularly labeled bad MUs. I also think oli is the worst but not significantly worse than ICs or diddy, esp considering the enormous lack of evidence and anther convincing MW olis + logic this MU was even. I didnt include lucario bc ppl seem to think thats been a lot easier lately and doing well against them once the MU is learned aka he doesnt really stop pikas from doing well.
Lastly I didnt consider potential for improvement at all. I know we have ideas for how MUs (our bad ones in particular) can be improved, and theres definitely a lot of room for that especially less played MUs (like oli imo), but thats going to be on all of us to show it. On the opposite end I excluded that same improvement potential from the opposing side as well so things like "X character should be harder if played this way" wont be included either.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
This is a difficulty scale and not an actual MU scale, yes?
I have played the one legit Zelda/Sheik player in Ed, and I kinda ****ed him up like...ridiculously badly. I think I double 3 stocked him...
I have played the one legit Zelda/Sheik player in Ed, and I kinda ****ed him up like...ridiculously badly. I think I double 3 stocked him...
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
namesearch bait swag.
Um I disagree with Sheilda being -2. Maybe -1 or even I cold agree with, but outside of cg percents Pikachu doesn't really body Sheik. imo without the chaingrab sheik wins the MU pretty heavily somewhere around +2ish. GR-Dacus kills realistically around 150% on FD assuming you are releasing towards the ledge from the center of the stage. F-tilt does a lot of damage to pikachu, and a stale f-tilt can lead into a tipper u-smash. Which is death around 95%. Despite all this I think the fact that zelda is a horrible character is the reason why Sheilda loses to pikachu, but only slightly if not even. I'm not knowledgeable enough about Zelda to even begin to post a decent MU summary about what zelda can do to pikachu and what not. Tbh I transform after I've been knocked off the stage most of the time.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
And that is how I know you don't actually play good people, or that you are not good yourself.
Sheik still loses to us without the CG. Hell, we OUTRANGE HER! Do you know how impressive it is for ****ing Pikachu to outrange someone? That is like...our one character flaw. We can edgeguard the **** out of sheik, and as you said we will either not let Zelda transform by not being knocked away, or she will do it too preemptively and we will hit her off-stage....and now it is sheik offstage. Yes tilts do decent damage, but was Zelda not giving us any damage? At like 40-50% you get maybe 2 tilts to a follow up. Pikachu is versatile enough not to fall into any obvious landing traps. You can't really do much when we are near the ledge, you can't really do anything when ON the ledge. I've played Ed a lot and it is just...bad...
Sheik still loses to us without the CG. Hell, we OUTRANGE HER! Do you know how impressive it is for ****ing Pikachu to outrange someone? That is like...our one character flaw. We can edgeguard the **** out of sheik, and as you said we will either not let Zelda transform by not being knocked away, or she will do it too preemptively and we will hit her off-stage....and now it is sheik offstage. Yes tilts do decent damage, but was Zelda not giving us any damage? At like 40-50% you get maybe 2 tilts to a follow up. Pikachu is versatile enough not to fall into any obvious landing traps. You can't really do much when we are near the ledge, you can't really do anything when ON the ledge. I've played Ed a lot and it is just...bad...
Roller
Smash Legend
...Tutu lives in Anther's state. I'm just sayin'.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
if you are going to apex, mm?