Character Competitive Impressions

[ParanoidDrone]

it may be just me but i feel like rob and dedede are underrated everytime i play a good one of either of them i have a terribly hard time getting the ko if not just damage and more time than not i come out with a loss

I have the most success against Dedede when I get in his face and press buttons. His own buttons are all pretty slow so you can probably get the jump on him that way. It's when you stay back and give him the time and space necessary to put out his own gigantic hitboxes that he starts being dangerous.

Haven't faced enough ROB players to get a good handle on him.

 

[FullMoon]

Dedede and ROB are among the characters that benefit a lot from lag so that's a likely reason for struggling with them.

I hate fighting both of them online, I'm fine with them offline though.

 

[Mizzy Moe]

I have the most success against Dedede when I get in his face and press buttons. His own buttons are all pretty slow so you can probably get the jump on him that way. It's when you stay back and give him the time and space necessary to put out his own gigantic hitboxes that he starts being dangerous.

Haven't faced enough ROB players to get a good handle on him.

i guess that makes sense i just start to get nervous i guess. i feel like sonic is a bad matchup or i may just need to get more comfortable with it. i usually use my falco to try and reflect the gordos as much as possible

 

[Vipermoon]

Name any char that Roy beats that Marth doesnt beat. Name a match thats bad for Marth that isn't worse for Roy.

Marth does better in all their bad matches. His disadvantage is better as is his recovery. Sheik wrecks them both but Roy can't attack like EVER, cept off a hard read or punish.

What are Marth's issues? What keeps him from playing his actual game cuz honestly...I don't see anything.

Do not be blinded by Roy's reward. He NEEDS that reward to justify his flaws.

Honestly I rate all 3 of them as high tier but Marth and Ike are close and Roy drops off a bit. Probably a little weaker then CF. Around there for all 3 of them. You say Marth has issues but if the man gets anything else he will go over that edge of being OP. Ike has mobility issues so Sakurai can give more buffs and it wouldnt break him. Marth has just enough mobility that making him safer or faster on his attacks will just make him Brawl Marth again with no MK or IC's to check his power.

Marth now has the following buffs compared to his release back in October

+ F-tilt frame data now equal to Brawl version
+ Dancing Blade adjusted to suck opponents in better and combo more consistently
+ Invincibility on Dolphin Slash from start-up to first hitting frame. Knockback also increased. Close to Brawl version knockback
+ Buffed jab leading to mix-ups or confirming into itself. Fairly safe when spaced well. Can create very easy traps with jab to d-tilt or jab to shff nair
+ U-tilt more hitstun. Now safe on hit even at low percents
+ Landing recovery reduced on Nair from 15 frames to 12 frames

He got some nerfs too though to compensate

- More hitlag on Crescent Slash. Probably felt Marth should not have a strong defensive tool and combo tool. Seems Sakurai wants this move just for combos only. Doing it OoS now is an easier punish
- Jab got more cooldown to compensate for the amazing buff it received. A smart tradeoff.

So what is he lacking? Grab confirms? So basically you want Marth to be the only FE rep to matter? I didn't realize you were so fond of the Hero-king.

He regained functionality on all his attacks save d-smash, which he really doesn't need anyway. Then he received the jab buff which is easily top 3 buffs thus far in the games life span. Then the Nair buff and the DS buff are icing on the cake. Marth is now a defensive powerhouse again. Hit his shield and expect to eat 11% unless your spacing is perfect.

He loses to Sheik, ZSS, Link and uhhhhhhhhh

Uhhhhhhh

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMM

Olimar? maaaaaaaybe?

In my opinion Marth loses to:

Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Wario (maybe)
Donkey Kong (maybe)
Link
Sheik
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
King Dedede
Meta Knight
Pikachu
Olimar
Sonic

Still isn't a lot of characters and he doesn't have auto-lose MUs.

Edit: NON-CUSTOMS

 

[Nu~]

In my opinion Marth loses to:

Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Wario (maybe)
Donkey Kong (maybe)
Link
Sheik
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
King Dedede
Meta Knight
Pikachu
Olimar
Sonic

Still isn't a lot of characters and he doesn't have auto-lose MUs.

14 isn't a lot?

 

[A_Kae]

In my opinion Marth loses to:

Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Wario
Donkey Kong
Link
Sheik
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
King Dedede
Meta Knight
Pikachu
Olimar
Sonic

Still isn't a lot of characters and he doesn't have auto-lose MUs.

Mario? I'm not sure how Mario does much against Marth. His lack of range is very apparent in that MU, crippling, I would say. Maybe I've just never faced a good Mario though.

And ZSS and Sheik are probably in the 'auto-lose' category, or at least close to it.

And that kind of is a long list.

 

[busken]

it may be just me but i feel like rob and dedede are underrated everytime i play a good one of either of them i have a terribly hard time getting the ko if not just damage and more time than not i come out with a loss

The word secondaries in your signature is spelled incorrectly.

 

[Vipermoon]

14 isn't a lot?

More than half of these he barely loses.

Mario? I'm not sure how Mario does much against Marth. His lack of range is very apparent in that MU, crippling, I would say. Maybe I've just never faced a good Mario though.

And ZSS and Sheik are probably in the 'auto-lose' category, or at least close to it.

And that kind of is a long list.

Mario get easily get in and out and he's extremely tough to punish. Ally who plays both characters says Marth gets destroyed by Mario (I'm sure he exaggerated that).
ZSS and Sheik are definitely not impossible but they along with definitely Sonic are the worse ones. 60-65 MU to them.

 

[A_Kae]

More than half of these he barely loses.



Mario get easily get in and out and he's extremely tough to punish. Ally who plays both characters says Marth gets destroyed by Mario.
ZSS and Sheik are definitely not impossible but they along with definitely Sonic are the worse ones. 60-65 MU to them.

I guess I've just never played a good enough mario then. That does make sense.

Maybe auto-lose is a bit extreme for ZSS and sheik, definitely a hard fight.

Also, I think we have different definitions of a losing matchup.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I totally understand what you're saying, and it's really hard to just go " yeah okay, he's not that great" when losing to him repeatedly. I'm totally aware of his weaknesses, but the Mac players are getting smarter, I can't just back throw into an aerial to take a stock from them anymore. He's hard for me to approach (possibly due to Roy's lack of approach options) and gets WAY too heavy of a punish in my opinion. I understand that he's truly an awful character, but if he is, it should feel like it when fighting him. Maybe if he had a bit more end lag on smashes it would even thin out, since he has super armor already. Not to mention that for glory inadvertently favors scrubby rolling. It just feels impossible to punish him since he has like no lag on anything. I wish I knew enough players to where I didn't have to use for glory for practice.


Anyway, my beef with Pikachu is simple.

He also tends to lack a precise hand to achieve victory.

I was using Ike (thank Daddy Sakurai he got buffed) and All Pika has to do is get me offstage and press B. There goes my stock, nothing I can do about it.

I guess at the end of the day, I wish that the 90% of the cast didn't have the stupid things they have that make the game feel unfair for certain characters. What I'm trying to say is, I wish balance patches really balanced everything. I think a nice change that could be made to Ike would be to give him armor during his entire up B, not just startup.

Just out of curiosity are you certain there isn't a competitive scene near you? Because I can tell you from expirience that fighting in tourney and getting good there solves most of that. If not there's always Smashladder.

 

[Vipermoon]

I guess I've just never played a good enough mario then. That does make sense.

Maybe auto-lose is a bit extreme for ZSS and sheik, definitely a hard fight.

Also, I think we have different definitions of a losing matchup.

By the way, I edited my origninal post. Some of these characters (Mario, Pika, MK, Wario for example) can be grab-release CS'ed. But this is for non-customs.

My definition is pretty simple. He loses more often than he wins.

 

[Spinosaurus]

In my opinion Marth loses to:

Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Wario (maybe)
Donkey Kong (maybe)
Link
Sheik
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
King Dedede
Meta Knight
Pikachu
Olimar
Sonic

Still isn't a lot of characters and he doesn't have auto-lose MUs.

Edit: NON-CUSTOMS

Nah, Wario is even, if not a good matchup for Marth. (theoretically, especially after the patch, but I don't have much experience).

 

[A_Kae]

By the way, I edited my origninal post. Some of these characters (Mario, Pika, MK, Wario for example) can be grab-release CS'ed. But this is for non-customs.

My definition is pretty simple. He loses more often than he wins.

Typically, I view a 'losing matchup' as a +3 matchup or something like that, and less than that as just bad.

But that's just me. Your definition is probably much more common.

 

[Mizzy Moe]

The word secondaries in your signature is spelled incorrectly.

oh thanks i suck at spelling XD
is it secondaries? like i just need to change y into ie

 

[Vipermoon]

Nah, Wario is even, if not a good matchup for Marth. (theoretically, especially after the patch, but I don't have much experience).

Yeah I don't have too much experience against good Warios and DKs that's why they're maybe. LOE1 is the only good Wario I fought. I think Reflex said Marth was even with him for what it's worth.

Then for DK he outranges Marth which is the best way to beat him. That's why Dedede is up there. They are also the hardest to kill with Uthrow.

 

[PUK]

Sonic is a serious cancer right now.

 

[C0rvus]

I totally understand what you're saying, and it's really hard to just go " yeah okay, he's not that great" when losing to him repeatedly. I'm totally aware of his weaknesses, but the Mac players are getting smarter, I can't just back throw into an aerial to take a stock from them anymore. He's hard for me to approach (possibly due to Roy's lack of approach options) and gets WAY too heavy of a punish in my opinion. I understand that he's truly an awful character, but if he is, it should feel like it when fighting him. Maybe if he had a bit more end lag on smashes it would even thin out, since he has super armor already. Not to mention that for glory inadvertently favors scrubby rolling. It just feels impossible to punish him since he has like no lag on anything. I wish I knew enough players to where I didn't have to use for glory for practice.


Anyway, my beef with Pikachu is simple.

He also tends to lack a precise hand to achieve victory.

I was using Ike (thank Daddy Sakurai he got buffed) and All Pika has to do is get me offstage and press B. There goes my stock, nothing I can do about it.

I guess at the end of the day, I wish that the 90% of the cast didn't have the stupid things they have that make the game feel unfair for certain characters. What I'm trying to say is, I wish balance patches really balanced everything. I think a nice change that could be made to Ike would be to give him armor during his entire up B, not just startup.

You seem to like to oversimplify the game quite a bit. It's always possible that there is a skill gap between you and your opponents.

 

[Ikes]

Is this the place where I can rant about why Mac hasn't been nerfed harder yet?
I mean, everyone who doesn't play Mac, hates Mac. Literally as strong as the Hulk, little to no lag on any attack ever, near guaranteed smash attacks due to armor, and an instakill. Whether skill is even required to play him is always debatable. His lack of aerial mobility is irrelevant completely. I struggled fighting Mac as I played as Roy. Not to mention he's like one of the fastest in the game.

I'll wait for replies before I start talking about how stupid Pikachu is.

If you think that he's skilless, you're playing bad macs. And if you're getting beaten by bad macs, you're bad yourself. A good little mac has to have an extreme amount of patience and has to play a very careful pressure game for fear of getting sent off stage. His KO punch only has a few guaranteed setups (although admittedly these setups are definitely not entirely difficult), Mac is a character that has to control the absolute center of the stage to win, and if you want to beat a good mac you really just have to make sure he doesn't do that. If you can force him in a position where he's not in center stage but you are then he's in a horrible position, though he absolutely does have the tools to take center stage back.
Just dont let him pressure you to the edge (since this is surprisingly an advantageous position for him) And try to get him offstage. even a stray back throw could turn the whole game on its head.

I hate to bring in the hard news, but you think Little Mac is too good because chances are, you aren't playing at a top or even high level. Little Mac is not a top-tier threat in this game by a long shot.

I would argue that Mac is a great counterpick/secondary for select matchups like Ryu, but I dont think he's a viable solo main at this point since his meta is still fairly underdeveloped.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol@Vipermoon64

I wont debate you. We both know how you feel about Marth

 

[NairWizard]

Is this the place where I can rant about why Mac hasn't been nerfed harder yet?
I mean, everyone who doesn't play Mac, hates Mac. Literally as strong as the Hulk, little to no lag on any attack ever, near guaranteed smash attacks due to armor, and an instakill. Whether skill is even required to play him is always debatable. His lack of aerial mobility is irrelevant completely. I struggled fighting Mac as I played as Roy. Not to mention he's like one of the fastest in the game.

I'm making some assumptions about your experience and skill level, but it sounds like you're coming from For Glory, haven't competed in tournaments, etc.

Here are some things that casual players who are new to the scene do wrong, that I think would give you a hard time against not just Mac but many characters:

• Airdodging to the ground. If you airdodge into the ground you're going to incur heavy landing lag and probably get punished for it by any competent player. Mix it up. Sometimes fastfall, land, then pick a defensive option (roll, spotdodge, shield, defensive hitbox, whatever), sometimes land with an aerial, sometimes just land without doing anything, and sometimes drift to the ledge. But never airdodge directly onto the stage.
• Airdodging or drifting back onstage from offstage -- you know how sometimes your opponent is waiting for you on the stage as you come back, and you happen to get hit by an f-smash or something? Just grab the ledge instead. Drifting away is one of the fundamentals of disadvantage. You get temporary invulnerability on the ledge, and ledge getups are really good in this game.
• Not knowing when you're in neutral, advantage, or disadvantage. You have to have a mental check running at all times. When you're (directly or very highly) above your opponent, offstage (unless you're edgeguarding), in hitstun, or in the corner, you are in disadvantage. When your opponent is in any of those states, you are in advantage. If neither player is in any of those states, then you are in neutral. Always ask yourself what state you're in and play accordingly.
  • If you are in disadvantage your goal is not to hit the opponent any more; it is to minimize followup damage. Sometimes this leads to counterintuitive plays, like taking the hit from prepatch Diddy's f-air (which did a whopping 12%) as opposed to getting killed by up-air. Do whatever you can to stop getting hit. You'll sometimes see top players trying to convert disadvantageous situations into advantageous ones. Don't do that until you have a lot of experience and are comfortable with the consequences of the decision tree.
  • If you are in advantage, press your advantage as far as you can, but don't overextend. If you commit to something in advantage, you may have just let your opponent get out, and possibly do some damage to you in the process. Be patient and wait, but seize your opportunities when you can. You also need to recognize when things have reset back to neutral so that you can stop trying to follow up. The worst thing you can do is dash attack someone's shield right after getting a beautiful 30% string.
  • Volumes could be (and have been) written on fighting game neutral. I recommend starting with the character boards and watching high-level videos of your character in play to see how baiting, faking out, reaction, etc. work.
• Not mixing up DI. DI isn't just survival DI, where you've got to hold the stick in a certain direction to avoid dying. DIng is a constant thing. You should always be rotating or moving your control stick when you get hit, in different directions depending on the context. When Ness d-throws you, if you DI above his head, then he can't get a f-air followup, but he can get an up-air/n-air punish. If you DI away from him, he can't get n-air or up-air but can get f-air. Mix it up based on what is more favorable to get hit by, and what you've done earlier in the match. When Mario d-throws you, sometimes you want to DI down and shield to avoid the second up-tilt, but sometimes you want to DI away from him, and sometimes you want to DI into him a bit to make him think that he can get more up-tilts, and then jump out. Mix up, mix up, mix up.
• Not using all of your movement options. Are you rolling a lot? Running everywhere? Full hopping all the time? Have you tried initial dashing, empty hopping, short hopping, foxtrotting, walking? Have you tried running off the stage and b-airing toward the stage as a mixup? Have you tried crouching in anticipation of a falling anti-juggle instead of shielding? Smash is a game about space and space control. There's infinite space. Use it creatively.
• Always being aggressive. Or always being defensive. You want to mix up between the two.
• Not mixing up defensive options. Roll, spotdodge, and shield are great, but not infallible options. You want to evenly distribute your options among the three if you can, with some preference for whichever one is appropriate in the matchup that you're playing. Rolling and spotdodging habits can be read.
• Hiding in shield. Don't just hold shield. Briefly flash your shield when you anticipate an attack and, on hit confirm, react and keep it held until you can punish.
• Expending your double jump immediately when hit offstage. See also: expending your up-b immediately when recovering. Your double jump is a resource. Your up-b is a resource. Think of it like a Samus Charge Shot: you don't want to just fire it immediately, do you? Use it at the right time. Save your offstage resources until you have to use them. If you can make it back to the ledge just by drifting toward it and using a f-air or something to bat your opponent away, great, do that. Saving your double jump (and often up-b) will make you more resilient to edgeguarding attempts.
• Airdodging immediately after a throw or combo starter. Sometimes this is correct. Most of the time, it's not. Usually you want to jump away first, then airdodge. You might buffer an airdodge by mistake, but in general you will be safer mashing jump.
• Attacking into shields. Good rule of thumb: whenever you really, really, really want to throw out an attack in neutral (or in any situation where your opponent can punish you for it), stop yourself and ask, what will my opponent's reaction be? Chances are, if you think that you have a good opportunity to attack, then your opponent sees that, and will be expecting it. Fighting games are all about unpredictability. Don't be predictable.
• Reacting to where your opponent is, not where your opponent is going to be. Yes, he just missed an f-smash. No, that doesn't necessarily mean you can dash attack him for it. He's going to try to stop you from doing that. Maybe he'll jab, or roll, or shield. If you want to punish him, you have to read the followup and respond to it. Keep dashing to punish the roll. Jump and wait for the spotdodge before unleashing your f-air. Run through pivot grab. Be predictive.
• Not knowing frame data. Sometimes, that missed f-smash will be punishable. You should know what you can punish with, and maximize your punish. Sure, if Ganon misses up-tilt you can probably just dash attack or dashgrab him. But what if you can land a tipper f-smash instead? Know what your character can do given certain windows of time. Also know what your opponent can do so that you can more appropriately analyze risk vs. reward.
• Not delaying button presses. If you're not able to juggle Mac, then chances are that you're not punishing his landings properly. If you just jump high up and swing attacks he will airdodge through them and land safely, and then you'll be in disadvantage. Wait for him to get close to the ground, jump toward him, wait for his reaction, and then punish. Roy's movement specs are great. Mac shouldn't be landing easily at all. Wait for the counter or airdodge, and punish it hard.
• Not adapting your playstyle based on your opponent. You're not fighting characters, you're fighting players. Players tend to fall into certain archetypes. With enough experience, you'll be able to tell who will likely do what in what situation. Getting good at reading is about getting good at player psychology. A player who is very cautious in neutral is likely to try to bait you into overcommiting in advantage. Be aware of that. Capitalize on that. Top players are truly terrifying because they don't have set habits, they adapt very quickly and it's hard to get consistent reads on them. High-level players often do well against top players at the beginning of a match or a set and then taper off from there because the top players adapt.
• Watching your own character. You already know what your character can do. You should be used to spacing with your character. Watch your opponent. Fix your eyes on the opponent. This will help you react faster.

I was using Ike (thank Daddy Sakurai he got buffed) and All Pika has to do is get me offstage and press B. There goes my stock, nothing I can do about it.

if you're losing your stock to Pikachu's Thunderjolt as Ike then you're making mistakes.
You can see it coming (watch the Pikachu, not your own character) and airdodge. Airdodges have 4-5 frames of vulnerability in this game, down from as high as 10-20 in Brawl. It's very difficult for most characters to punish airdodging consistently (landing with airdodges is a different story; please don't do that).

Hope this helps you up your game.

 

[Vipermoon]

lol@Vipermoon64

I wont debate you. We both know how you feel about Marth

Throughout two patches you went from being completely hopeless on Marth to freaking out that Marth is amazing and wins almost every MU. I'm realistic. Marth, in 1.0.8 is an upper mid-tier in potential who still doesn't have representation at the highest levels of play.

I respect you dude, but as an upper mid-tier he's bound to lose a few MUs. It's not like he has any really bad ones.

So what I said in that other thread was after I read some of this amusing optimistic talk. It was also after I read a post hoping the jab doesn't get unbuffed. Like really? A jab 1 that can't always connect into jab 2 and if you don't go for jab two any player with skill will know to double jump out of jab 1. Jab 1 is one of the best advantage states in the game but after some practice, people will consistently double jump out of it. How can that be unbuffed? If anything they should rearrange the hitboxes of jab 2 and Utilt so they can actually follow their animation. I say this because jab 2 and Utilt are basically the only two consistent true combos from jab 1. But if they miss at jab 1's max range...

 

[Emblem Lord]

in two patches he got all his problems fixed.

Also when did I say Marth was hopeless? You have me confused with Shaya.

Also you said Marth loses to Mario and Wario.

bruh.

bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

 

[Vipermoon]

in two patches he got all his problems fixed.

Also when did I say Marth was hopeless? You have me confused with Shaya.

Also you said Marth loses to Mario and Wario.

bruh.

bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

Depends on your definition of problems. And not sure, sounded like you were denouncing Marth for Roy and Ryu for this patch. And before this patch you were also talking about dropping the character.

Idk about Wario. I believe he's really good. But sorry we disagree with Mario.

 

[A_Kae]

in two patches he got all his problems fixed.

Also when did I say Marth was hopeless? You have me confused with Shaya.

Also you said Marth loses to Mario and Wario.

bruh.

bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

You know Marth better than I do, so I'm probably missing something here, but do the buffs to Marth really make him that good?

I know that dancing blade being consistent, jab 1 being a potential trap move, and nair 1 being able to combo into stuff are all really great buffs. I just don't really see how they lead to Marth only losing to 3 characters.

Like I said, I'm probably missing some important info as to why that is. It just seems like some people have made a complete 180° on Marth's viability, and I don't understand completely why.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Its not combos DAMMIT. Its his ability to actually create a zone and defend his space.

Apologies. Flipped for a second.

This community so obsessed with damage, people forget what creates opportunities to get damage.

The ability to control space and Marth can do that now. He can play the WAY HE WAS INTENDED TO PLAY

Also match-ups are about TOOL INTERACTION. Not tiers.

A low tier can have a tool that invalidates a top tier. Like how Zangief craps on Boxer in ST.

Wario being good doesnt mean marth loses. Warios game plays into Marths hands.

 

[Luco]

in two patches he got all his problems fixed.

Also when did I say Marth was hopeless? You have me confused with Shaya.

Also you said Marth loses to Mario and Wario.

bruh.

bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

I feel like 'Bruh' is your new catchphrase and I actually love it. <3

Anyway, I've been playing around with Lucas a lot more and I see a lot of potential in Zair for creating traps and setups. The problem, ironically, is that Lucas can actually find it difficult to get the kill when PK Hoohah whiffs because of the opponent's DI. PKT1 is no longer the incredible gimping tool it once was, and there's a life-time of end-lag on it which means you can't edge-guard with it nearly as well as you used to. His throws are good, but B and Fthrow are inconsistent and Uthrow only kills most chars at like 140 and up which isn't particularly amazing. Fair is nice and disjointed and strong but appears to have more end-lag now which means you can really get punished for it from an AD. Uair's hitbox is small, Bair's spike hitbox is even smaller, Dair fell from grace from the days when it set up the Dtilt lock... *sad*

Often I can string Nairs and Uairs together and get the opponent to kill percents reasonably easily, and then I'm sitting there for ages working out how to get the kill.

After games like those I go back to to forget my woes.

 

[A_Kae]

Its not combos DAMMIT. Its his ability to actually create a zone and defend his space.

Apologies. Flipped for a second.

This community so obsessed with damage, people forget what creates opportunities to get damage.

The ability to control space and Marth can do that now. He can play the WAY HE WAS INTENDED TO PLAY

Also match-ups are about TOOL INTERACTION. Not tiers.

A low tier can have a tool that invalidates a top tier. Like how Zangief craps on Boxer in ST.

Wario being good doesnt mean marth loses. Warios game plays into Marths hands.

I hadn't really thought about the space control aspect of those moves. I guess that would help Marth fight more effectively. They still seem not big enough buffs to make Marth as good as you're saying, but you do know more about this than I do, I haven't had much of an opportunity to utilize them in an actual match.

About where would you rank Marth for tiers now?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

After being sick and tired of playing singles all day, I deified to work on my doubles skill. Now, I know in teamwork-based games, you have to be super versatile for any situation that may come up. No solid, permanent roles. So, I picked up and been doing pretty good with him on for glory 2v2s. One question is, what's a good team combo with That I could tell my friends to pick?

 

[Emblem Lord]

lolol.

Doubles

Pure jank nonsensical garbage

Marth imo is bottom of high tier. I honestly don't even think he beats alot of chars. Alot of even and virtually even match-ups. Prolly slightly beats like 12ish characters. Nothing crazy.

 

[Miles_himself]

I'm making some assumptions about your experience and skill level, but it sounds like you're coming from For Glory, haven't competed in tournaments, etc.

Here are some things that casual players who are new to the scene do wrong, that I think would give you a hard time against not just Mac but many characters:

• Airdodging to the ground. If you airdodge into the ground you're going to incur heavy landing lag and probably get punished for it by any competent player. Mix it up. Sometimes fastfall, land, then pick a defensive option (roll, spotdodge, shield, defensive hitbox, whatever), sometimes land with an aerial, sometimes just land without doing anything, and sometimes drift to the ledge. But never airdodge directly onto the stage.
• Airdodging or drifting back onstage from offstage -- you know how sometimes your opponent is waiting for you on the stage as you come back, and you happen to get hit by an f-smash or something? Just grab the ledge instead. Drifting away is one of the fundamentals of disadvantage. You get temporary invulnerability on the ledge, and ledge getups are really good in this game.
• Not knowing when you're in neutral, advantage, or disadvantage. You have to have a mental check running at all times. When you're (directly or very highly) above your opponent, offstage (unless you're edgeguarding), in hitstun, or in the corner, you are in disadvantage. When your opponent is in any of those states, you are in advantage. If neither player is in any of those states, then you are in neutral. Always ask yourself what state you're in and play accordingly.
  • If you are in disadvantage your goal is not to hit the opponent any more; it is to minimize followup damage. Sometimes this leads to counterintuitive plays, like taking the hit from prepatch Diddy's f-air (which did a whopping 12%) as opposed to getting killed by up-air. Do whatever you can to stop getting hit. You'll sometimes see top players trying to convert disadvantageous situations into advantageous ones. Don't do that until you have a lot of experience and are comfortable with the consequences of the decision tree.
  • If you are in advantage, press your advantage as far as you can, but don't overextend. If you commit to something in advantage, you may have just let your opponent get out, and possibly do some damage to you in the process. Be patient and wait, but seize your opportunities when you can. You also need to recognize when things have reset back to neutral so that you can stop trying to follow up. The worst thing you can do is dash attack someone's shield right after getting a beautiful 30% string.
  • Volumes could be (and have been) written on fighting game neutral. I recommend starting with the character boards and watching high-level videos of your character in play to see how baiting, faking out, reaction, etc. work.
• Not mixing up DI. DI isn't just survival DI, where you've got to hold the stick in a certain direction to avoid dying. DIng is a constant thing. You should always be rotating or moving your control stick when you get hit, in different directions depending on the context. When Ness d-throws you, if you DI above his head, then he can't get a f-air followup, but he can get an up-air/n-air punish. If you DI away from him, he can't get n-air or up-air but can get f-air. Mix it up based on what is more favorable to get hit by, and what you've done earlier in the match. When Mario d-throws you, sometimes you want to DI down and shield to avoid the second up-tilt, but sometimes you want to DI away from him, and sometimes you want to DI into him a bit to make him think that he can get more up-tilts, and then jump out. Mix up, mix up, mix up.
• Not using all of your movement options. Are you rolling a lot? Running everywhere? Full hopping all the time? Have you tried initial dashing, empty hopping, short hopping, foxtrotting, walking? Have you tried running off the stage and b-airing toward the stage as a mixup? Have you tried crouching in anticipation of a falling anti-juggle instead of shielding? Smash is a game about space and space control. There's infinite space. Use it creatively.
• Always being aggressive. Or always being defensive. You want to mix up between the two.
• Not mixing up defensive options. Roll, spotdodge, and shield are great, but not infallible options. You want to evenly distribute your options among the three if you can, with some preference for whichever one is appropriate in the matchup that you're playing. Rolling and spotdodging habits can be read.
• Hiding in shield. Don't just hold shield. Briefly flash your shield when you anticipate an attack and, on hit confirm, react and keep it held until you can punish.
• Expending your double jump immediately when hit offstage. See also: expending your up-b immediately when recovering. Your double jump is a resource. Your up-b is a resource. Think of it like a Samus Charge Shot: you don't want to just fire it immediately, do you? Use it at the right time. Save your offstage resources until you have to use them. If you can make it back to the ledge just by drifting toward it and using a f-air or something to bat your opponent away, great, do that. Saving your double jump (and often up-b) will make you more resilient to edgeguarding attempts.
• Airdodging immediately after a throw or combo starter. Sometimes this is correct. Most of the time, it's not. Usually you want to jump away first, then airdodge. You might buffer an airdodge by mistake, but in general you will be safer mashing jump.
• Attacking into shields. Good rule of thumb: whenever you really, really, really want to throw out an attack in neutral (or in any situation where your opponent can punish you for it), stop yourself and ask, what will my opponent's reaction be? Chances are, if you think that you have a good opportunity to attack, then your opponent sees that, and will be expecting it. Fighting games are all about unpredictability. Don't be predictable.
• Reacting to where your opponent is, not where your opponent is going to be. Yes, he just missed an f-smash. No, that doesn't necessarily mean you can dash attack him for it. He's going to try to stop you from doing that. Maybe he'll jab, or roll, or shield. If you want to punish him, you have to read the followup and respond to it. Keep dashing to punish the roll. Jump and wait for the spotdodge before unleashing your f-air. Run through pivot grab. Be predictive.
• Not knowing frame data. Sometimes, that missed f-smash will be punishable. You should know what you can punish with, and maximize your punish. Sure, if Ganon misses up-tilt you can probably just dash attack or dashgrab him. But what if you can land a tipper f-smash instead? Know what your character can do given certain windows of time. Also know what your opponent can do so that you can more appropriately analyze risk vs. reward.
• Not delaying button presses. If you're not able to juggle Mac, then chances are that you're not punishing his landings properly. If you just jump high up and swing attacks he will airdodge through them and land safely, and then you'll be in disadvantage. Wait for him to get close to the ground, jump toward him, wait for his reaction, and then punish. Roy's movement specs are great. Mac shouldn't be landing easily at all. Wait for the counter or airdodge, and punish it hard.
• Not adapting your playstyle based on your opponent. You're not fighting characters, you're fighting players. Players tend to fall into certain archetypes. With enough experience, you'll be able to tell who will likely do what in what situation. Getting good at reading is about getting good at player psychology. A player who is very cautious in neutral is likely to try to bait you into overcommiting in advantage. Be aware of that. Capitalize on that. Top players are truly terrifying because they don't have set habits, they adapt very quickly and it's hard to get consistent reads on them. High-level players often do well against top players at the beginning of a match or a set and then taper off from there because the top players adapt.
• Watching your own character. You already know what your character can do. You should be used to spacing with your character. Watch your opponent. Fix your eyes on the opponent. This will help you react faster.

if you're losing your stock to Pikachu's Thunderjolt as Ike then you're making mistakes.
You can see it coming (watch the Pikachu, not your own character) and airdodge. Airdodges have 4-5 frames of vulnerability in this game, down from as high as 10-20 in Brawl. It's very difficult for most characters to punish airdodging consistently (landing with airdodges is a different story; please don't do that).

Hope this helps you up your game.

You're a wonderful human being for helping me like this. I was aware of some of that stuff already, but it takes a lot of mental strength to constantly be employing it. Thanks once again.

 

[A_Kae]

lolol.

Doubles

Pure jank nonsensical garbage

Marth imo is bottom of high tier. I honestly don't even think he beats alot of chars. Alot of even and virtually even match-ups. Prolly slightly beats like 12ish characters. Nothing crazy.

I was definitely misinterpreting what you were saying about Marth's matchups earlier then. I was thinking that you meant that he was beating a majority of the cast. I know you didn't say that, but that's what I read it as.

And I totally agree about doubles.

 

[Miles_himself]

You seem to like to oversimplify the game quite a bit. It's always possible that there is a skill gap between you and your opponents.

That is indeed possible. That's why I'm here, to close the gap or put it in my favor.

Sonic is a serious cancer right now.

When is Sonic NOT cancer?

Just out of curiosity are you certain there isn't a competitive scene near you? Because I can tell you from expirience that fighting in tourney and getting good there solves most of that. If not there's always Smashladder.

I live in a small town in Oklahoma, I 'm relatively certain there isn't a scene for me to hop into. I've already proven I'm the best in my school. I know some of the GameStop employees play, but I've never seen what they can do. Apparently they roll with someone who's supposedly the best in my immediate area.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

lolol.

Doubles

Pure jank nonsensical garbage

Can't be any worse than COD :3

 

[Mr. Johan]

I live in a small town in Oklahoma, I 'm relatively certain there isn't a scene for me to hop into. I've already proven I'm the best in my school. I know some of the GameStop employees play, but I've never seen what they can do. Apparently they roll with someone who's supposedly the best in my immediate area.

Gotta specify this town, because there's relatively decent sized Smash 4 scenes in Norman/OKC/Edmond and Tulsa. Average about 22 entrants a weekly.

Im not convinced Sonic is cancer. After all the nerfs he's got he's essentially Brawl Sonic with a killing Fthrow. If Sonic was manageable in Brawl, he should be manageable here.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Its not combos DAMMIT. Its his ability to actually create a zone and defend his space.

Apologies. Flipped for a second.

This community so obsessed with damage, people forget what creates opportunities to get damage.

The ability to control space and Marth can do that now. He can play the WAY HE WAS INTENDED TO PLAY

Also match-ups are about TOOL INTERACTION. Not tiers.

A low tier can have a tool that invalidates a top tier. Like how Zangief craps on Boxer in ST.

Wario being good doesnt mean marth loses. Warios game plays into Marths hands.

This. This cant be stressed enough. If it were about tiers Brawl Marth would SH*T on Brawl DK. But it's a mostly even matchup. Why? DK's Bair keeps him in the game. And this is something that takes a well-evolved meta to see, and we're nowhere near that in Smash 4. Not to mention balance patches and 50+ characters with only like 10 being fully explored. We have a long ways to go guys.

EDIT: CONGRATS @TheReflexWonder I SEE YOU IN BRACKET GO WRECK SOME SCRUBS!

 

[bc1910]

Samus, D3, Wii Fit, Robin to name a few, are all characters who benefit a lot from laggy conditions. Most of them rely on projectiles which become exponentially harder to dodge, and D3 just kills it online because of laggy Gordos + input delay meaning you can't react to him properly. He can be a nightmare. All these characters are significantly worse offline though.

Then you have guys like ROB, the Links and Falcon who benefit from lag but are still good characters offline. They're all very adaptable.

Marth imo is bottom of high tier. I honestly don't even think he beats alot of chars. Alot of even and virtually even match-ups. Prolly slightly beats like 12ish characters. Nothing crazy.

Interesting to hear you say that. Do you think that's the kind of MU spread that warrants a low high tier in this game? Because Greninja's is very similar to that. 2 maybe 3 losses (I'm no longer confident he loses to Fox), a bunch of evens and maybe 10 wins vs mainly immobile characters. I always thought that was more of an upper-mid spread because of the lack of polarizing wins against good characters, but maybe I'm underestimating the game's balance. And underestimating the value of only losing to 3 characters or fewer.

 

[Asdioh]

(Meanwhile Diddy is continuing to dominate and is blatantly still a top tier character)

 

[Shaya]

in two patches he got all his problems fixed.

Also when did I say Marth was hopeless? You have me confused with Shaya.

Also you said Marth loses to Mario and Wario.

bruh.

bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

Didn't we both agree Marth was crap? Pretty sure we did. I didn't expect you to spin around semantics like this though
You also thought he was still crap when the only buff he got was a functioning dancing blade (well, that did come with 3 frame buffs too, but we knew DB nearly straight away).
BRUH.

I'm not really certain/confident in claiming match up values for Marth at this point. My ability to play in every match up generally successfully (5,000 years of Marth playing/match up experience for every sort of crap people would 'lame' you out with) skews perspective. Prior to this patch I was pretty comfortable stating he lost to Mario and Luigi; his toolkit is good enough to be able to run near-even with most of the cast before, now it's... better/easier. With the amount of things he has now, it seems feasible this character can win tournaments / not have anything that invalidates him.

Characters with less range than him now have to worry about jab a lot, and up tilt quite a bit more as it's no longer laggy enough to be punished by air dodges into the ground (lol).

 

[Spinosaurus]

EDIT: CONGRATS @TheReflexWonder I SEE YOU IN BRACKET GO WRECK SOME SCRUBS!

Lost to Anti in losers

Mario is bad for Wario

 

[A_Kae]

Didn't we both agree Marth was crap? Pretty sure we did. I didn't expect you to spin around semantics like this though
You also thought he was still crap when the only buff he got was a functioning dancing blade (well, that did come with 3 frame buffs too, but we knew DB nearly straight away).
BRUH.

Wait, 3 frame buffs? Jab and f-tilt I know, what was the other one?