Character Competitive Impressions

[Vipermoon]

@ LiteralGrill

Dr. Mario says "3". Is that + or - 3?

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ LiteralGrill

Dr. Mario says "3". Is that + or - 3?

Minus, just fixed it.

 

[Luco]

It's always getting better, which is nice. Still some obvious nitpicks for me:

- I'm not entirely sold yet that is at the bottom of A+ tier, I certainly consider the nerf of Uair to be a big deal but where it doesn't kill it combos and he still has nanas --> smashes and Fair which wasn't nerfed as hard as we first thought.
- I'm sceptical of being in the same tier as .
- I love but he's just not #3. I stick by my old belief that probably belongs somewhere between and
- What the hell is Reddit's relationship with if they're putting him as the single worst character in the game, in a tier of his own? Good golly. Swap places with , eliminate the extra tier, and move up another 5 places up at least and then we'll talk.
- Even with his wii U nerfs, I just don't believe is that low. EVEN in a 1111 environment.
- Speaking of which, and are very low, leading me to think they're assuming customs off. Should that be the case, needs to be placed where he belongs. This is a very strange mindset coming from them.
- and still need to stay together. I think this is one of those cases where the voting system makes it hard but I really don't think they're any further than one place from each other.
- and could probably stand to move up into the tiers above them respectively.

With these exceptions, I don't think it's that bad of a list. Most of the choices are believable or at least I can see where they're coming from.

Would be interested in hearing others' thoughts. I enjoy discussing these lists. I know you used to catch a lot of flak for them @ LiteralGrill but I really like them.

 

[AvariceX]

- Speaking of which, and are very low, leading me to think they're assuming customs off. Should that be the case, needs to be placed where he belongs. This is a very strange mindset coming from them.

The instructions for the ranking specifically said to consider Customs off but Miis with access to all moves.

Which is dumb, you cannot allow Miis to have all of their moves and deny Palutena.

 

[GeneralLedge]

- What the hell is Reddit's relationship with if they're putting him as the single worst character in the game, in a tier of his own? Good golly.

Reddit exists in a plane where citing sources for things you say isn't required or encouraged (and is actively discouraged, since I tend to get -10 or so every time I ask). Whoever says the most hyperbole thing the loudest, wins.

"He's slow in the air lol why lol kek. top kek." -Reddit

 

[Luco]

The instructions for the ranking specifically said to consider Customs off but Miis with access to all moves.

Which is dumb, you cannot allow Miis to have all of their moves and deny Palutena.

I see...

If people are such sticklers for what the game allows they might as well keep Pally as she was clearly intended to be.

But alas, a discussion for another time I suppose.

Should that be the case, needs to move up a long way.

 

[wedl!!]

it really goes to show how bad voted tier lists (especially from the hivemind of reddit) are when is top 3

must be all those / mains ("educated" FG players) talking

 

[Luco]

it really goes to show how bad voted tier lists (especially from the hivemind of reddit) are when is top 3

must be all those / mains ("educated" FG players) talking

Oi I'll have you know I'm a VERY educated FG player.

I just... Play in tournaments as well! >_>

I'm not entirely surprised, I know Falcon for one has the single largest player-base for a smash 4 character.

Is this the first smash game where the most played character doesn't necessarily = the best character?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff has a longer-lasting airdodge than most characters (34 frames), but it still only has five frames of endlag. With that aerial mobility, I wonder how much it can be abused.

Combined with the ability to refresh ledge invincibility by airdodging toward a ledge, she may have some potential playing like Brawl Wario tended to (airdodging like an idiot for most of the time). N-Air has a decent disjoint and can be safe on shield if you're close to the ground, which is easy from a shorthop immediate airdodge, and Down-B is a very, very good move.

 

[wedl!!]

Is this the first smash game where the most played character doesn't necessarily = the best character?

yes, i suppose so. in melee / have run rampant for years (since their meta developed; before it was /) and brawl got blown up by . in smash 4 top tiers are still popular [see: , (prepatch)], but there's a lot more character diversity.
ironically theres a ton of homogenization in this game but whatever

 

[S.P.A.D.]

Okay, curiosity, why is Ness that high? I feel he's good, yeah, but not middle of A good.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Just wanted to butt in the MK-Villager MU because I play both characters, to say that I think default is slightly in MK's favor.
MK's mobility allows him to run circles around Villager. Sure, she has a lot of tools that outrange MK, but they all are quite unsafe and MK can just wait for her to throw something and punish accordingly. Not even Lloyd Rocket is too good as MK has good OOS options.
Also MetaKnight can destroy Villager's recovery, as he applies a lot of pressure offstage, and if MK gets a trump Villager WILL get hit no matter what she tries next (theorycraft but still).
The only thing to keep this MU from being terrible is the tree, as the squirt makes a dashgrab whiff, clashes with Dash Attack and beats any aerial approach, making MK ultimately get hit by the growth, so it becomes a huge threat for him.


Customs make this a lot more even to slight Villager advantage thanks to Pushy Lloyd and Exploding Balloons, but there is no reason to use the tripping sprout if the default Tree is way better for this Matchup. Sure, it kind of hinders MK's ground approaches but MK has a good aerial game anyway, and it's also nice to be able to challenge the squirt for a much lower risk.

 

[Luco]

Okay, curiosity, why is Ness that high? I feel he's good, yeah, but not middle of A good.

They might have put him there because of ZeRo and M2K both freaking out about him. He also still get results (V pulled him out in GFs at BAM 7 a few weeks ago and won), though admittedly I haven't heard too much of our top players' exploits recently so it's very possible that he belongs a few spots lower. I doubt he's below Villager in terms of viability though.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

They might have put him there because of ZeRo and M2K both freaking out about him. He also still get results (V pulled him out in GFs at BAM 7 a few weeks ago and won), though admittedly I haven't heard too much of our top players' exploits recently so it's very possible that he belongs a few spots lower. I doubt he's below Villager in terms of viability though.

Without a doubt better than Villager but I feel he is too high. I used him for fifteen years, and now I can't get the hang of him. So sad. Maybe around Fox, above perhaps.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Alright everybody, the votes have been tallied and I have the newest tier list from /r/smashbros for you all. There were no big changes in the poll or game really this month, so it will be interesting to see how people feel about the characters now that the patch has settled a bit and we've had some events..NOW HERE WE GO!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories.

The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

(S) (13.7 | ±0) (13.2 | +1)
(A+) (12.55 | +4) (12.45 | +2) (12.38 | -2)
(A) (11.96 | -2) (11.89 | -2) (11.73 | ±0) (11.13 | ±0) (11.12 | +1) (11.1 | -1 ) (11.08 | +1)
(A-) (10.88 | +1) (10.79 | -2)
(B+) (9.95 | ±0) (9.82 | ±0) (9.78 | ±0) (9.68 | +2) (9.64 | ±0) (9.32 | +3) (9.31 | -3) (9.18 | -1) (9.12 | -1)
(B) (8.85 | ±0) (8.81 | +3) (8.75 | +10) (8.62 | -1) (8.47 | -3) (8.12 | ±0) (8.01 | ±0)
(B-) (7.89 | +2) (7.73 | +11) (7.56 | +2) (7.54 | +3) (7.53 | -8) (7.4 | -4) (7.32 | -3) (7.11 | +1)
(C+) (6.87 | -8) (6.8 | +2) (6.72 | +6) (6.62 | -3) (6.59 | ±0) (6.31 | +2) (6.24 | +5) (6.23 | -5) (6.2 | +5) (6.04 | -3)
(C) (5.93 | ±0) (5.86 | +1) (5.74 | -3)
(C-) (4.86 | ±0)


A few things I personally noticed: there's quite a few characters that actually stayed in their place or maybe moved 1-2 spots this month, I think peoples impressions are starting to settle out a bit. Though it seems a few characters are still really seeing radical changes (Kirby and Little Mac WOW) and the mid to lower tiers are having the most fluctuation.

Here are the Miscellaneous Questions!​

[collapse=]
Which character do you think has the most hidden potential?
1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you think is the most overrated?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you think is easiest to use?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you think is hardest to use?

1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you hate to fight the most?

1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you love to fight the most?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you play as as most?

1.
2.
3.

[/collapse]

So here you go everyone, what do you all think?​

Finally Kirby in the right spot.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

Just my 2 cents:
Falcon should be right below Brawler
R.O.B. is underrated - should be right above Brawler
DHD is underrated - should be right above TL
Bowser Jr. is underrated - should be right behind where I'd put DHD
Palutena is SUPER underrated - should be right under G&W

 

[Pacoheadley]

The instructions for the ranking specifically said to consider Customs off but Miis with access to all moves.

Which is dumb, you cannot allow Miis to have all of their moves and deny Palutena.

It isn't dumb. The Mii's other moves aren't "customs" in the same sense, they are just different options when creating the character, the game allows you to use them even when customs are off. Palutena has them unlocked yes, but they are restricted with customs off.

 

[Zelder]

Everyone in this thread seems so down on the game. Everyone is either underpowered, or an overwhelming mechanics shattering cancer that has to be stopped if we want a fun game.

 

[Firefoxx]

Everyone in this thread seems so down on the game. Everyone is either underpowered, or an overwhelming mechanics shattering cancer that has to be stopped if we want a fun game.

When you like a thing a whole bunch, you see its flaws very clearly and often times want them fixed to make that thing perfect. I absolutely love this game and I absolutely think it could use quite a few changes. Those ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Mr. Johan]

If the scene had a choice between getting characters' very strong options tailored down, or to have a metagame that looks suspiciously like Melee's with a MVP top 7-8 characters which will eventually dwindle to top 3-4 when the metagame settles, with the rest of the cast represented by the once-a-blue-moon low tier heroes, they'll pick the former nearly all of the time.

People saying this Smash is the most balanced at this point in time don't seem to realize just what that entails. You're comparing balance in this game to two games with an undisputed top character, and a game with four viable characters plus Hungry's Jigglypuff. If Smash 4 has six viable characters in a few years and the rest are trash or get booty-blasted by the top six in some capacity, then technically yes, it is the most balanced. But that's hardly worth writing about.

Best to voice opinions right now really loudly and provoke change than hope things pan out in the end with no guarantee.

 

[Helkulkhamen]

It isn't dumb. The Mii's other moves aren't "customs" in the same sense, they are just different options when creating the character, the game allows you to use them even when customs are off. Palutena has them unlocked yes, but they are restricted with customs off.

The position that Mii custom moves aren't technically custom moves because the interface allows you to use them regardless just seems like the most silly thing to me - just as silly as tournaments not allowing Miis period because they aren't present in the For Glory character select screen. At the end of the day, the Miis' moves are all variants of their specials, just like every other character's custom moves, and they should be treated as such.

 

[Locke 06]

Speaking ofMega, has anyone noticed on how annoying his lemons are? Sure, people like ZSS, Greninja, and Falcon can just say **** it, but I feel Mega trashes on characters with slow airspeed (Kirby and below), and screws most character's approaches. His lemons are basically a better Falco Blaster outside of damage and range and can be used as an amazing pressure tool. They are also positive on shield and can be used while walking.

But maybe I'm seeing it from Luigi's perspective with his air speed. But i'm curious if any of you all ever felt the same way.

They're not positive on shield. There's 12 frames in between each one and 27 frames of endlag (ending f35) while the pellet stays out from 8-25. It has 1 frame of shield stun (the minimum due to 2% damage) but the canon hitbox (5% on shield, canon hitbox not present when walking/ftilt) has 2 frames of shield stun. They also don't lead into anything (edit: guaranteed. Cross up AAA>running Usmash/dash grab is pretty) except themselves.

I'd post a link to the complete MM frame data sheet that I'm working on... but it's a WIP. But yeah, sixriver & hitbox data.

ZSS and Greninja cannot say **** it because they're too light, therefore, suffering more knockback/hitstun from pellets. ZSS loses to pellets unless she gets in NAir range (NAir>flip jump spike is the dumbest) and she can still SHAD UAir which is a strong option (usmash or utilt awaits though).

The characters that truly disrespect pellets in their approach: (but loses to pellets without luma) for very obvious reasons. Everyone else has to deal with it some way or another (yes, even Sheik). Thinking about it, Lucario may be able to approach with a ASC facing away from Mega with the charge clashing with pellets. Not that I've played more than 1 set against a good Lucario. -shrugs-

Pac9 & Reflex:
Pacman side-B camping loses to item metal blade. You try it, get hit for 10%, and Mega gets to heal for 2%. If you're late on your side-B (don't forget how slow it comes out) and try to do it against crash bomber, the explosion will knock you back. The MU is in no way one-sided defined by "fruit/NAir>pellet," "tramp on the ledge," "take fruit & camp," or "Disjointed FAir/BAir says lol to your aerials."

Pac, imo, is still thriving off of a lack of MU knowledge. If a Mega Man doesn't know how to play with and around Pac's tools, it's easily in Pacman's favor (although utilt is still a thing). However, if you know things like "If Pac BAirs the hydrant, pellet or MB will launch it" or "Throw the melon up while you do stuff and then catch it later," the matchup becomes much more fun and interactive. You just have to play the MU a lot with the same character to know what you can and cannot do with the tools. This isn't to say he's bad, but he likely outperforms his toolkit.

Toon Link, in my limited experience, is the same, as his bomb setups and recatches off of shield/jump canceled tosses create a really good pressure game. However, if you know where he'll be and know his setups, you can catch the bomb and meet him there. It just requires item fundamentals and MU knowledge that most people don't have.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

The Mii moves aren't variants of their specials...they're completely different moves. The Mii specials move-set is primarily a collection of options from across the cast. Shotput isn't a variation of Uppercut, which certainly isn't a variant of flaming kick.

Theres a clear difference between the options of any mii special, and Kirbys Hammer customs all being 3 types of slow attack hammers with different properties.

The Mii moveset is customizeable, the entire character is. It's a simplified "create a character" option.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh lol how I wish Greninja could just ignore Megaman's pellets.

If it wasn't for Greninja's crazy mobility the Megaman MU would be so awful.

 

[Ulevo]

Best to voice opinions right now really loudly and provoke change than hope things pan out in the end with no guarantee.

Meanwhile we have no idea exactly what changes to provoke because we do not know what the future metagame will hold.

This is a stupid mentality.

 

[GeneralLedge]

The Mii moves aren't variants of their specials...they're completely different moves. The Mii specials move-set is primarily a collection of options from across the cast. Shotput isn't a variation of Uppercut, which certainly isn't a variant of flaming kick.

Theres a clear difference between the options of any mii special, and Kirbys Hammer customs all being 3 types of slow attack hammers with different properties.

The Mii moveset is customizeable, the entire character is. It's a simplified "create a character" option.

"But the numbers 1111 on characters are their defaults, therefore 1111 on Miis are their defaults. Letting Miis use things outside default is unfair."

-Most frustrating thing I've read on Reddit in my life.

 

[Nu~]

Pac9 & Reflex:
Pacman side-B camping loses to item metal blade. You try it, get hit for 10%, and Mega gets to heal for 2%. If you're late on your side-B (don't forget how slow it comes out) and try to do it against crash bomber, the explosion will knock you back. The MU is in no way one-sided defined by "fruit/NAir>pellet," "tramp on the ledge," "take fruit & camp," or "Disjointed FAir/BAir says lol to your aerials."

Pac, imo, is still thriving off of a lack of MU knowledge. If a Mega Man doesn't know how to play with and around Pac's tools, it's easily in Pacman's favor (although utilt is still a thing). However, if you know things like "If Pac BAirs the hydrant, pellet or MB will launch it" or "Throw the melon up while you do stuff and then catch it later," the matchup becomes much more fun and interactive. You just have to play the MU a lot with the same character to know what you can and cannot do with the tools. This isn't to say he's bad, but he likely outperforms his toolkit.

Thank you for this. Completely agreed. And yes, Pac-Man is still thriving off of matchup inexperience (this char is crazy weird, and it doesn't help that 2 people play him)

I just wanted to point out some things.
A thrown fruit can't be caught again. It's both a blessing (opponents can't catch fruits, yay!) and a curse (we lose sooo many opportunities for follow ups)
Unless you mean z drop, do whatever, pick up before it disappears.


The frame data says that Side B comes out on frame 12 doesn't it? I'm still unsure if that is true. I've absorbed charged shots before at point blank range. It may be like skull barrier in that the pellet (or reflecting property, in mega man's case) comes out quicker than recorded.

But I don't know for sure.

 

[YoshiYogurt]

Peach is definitely super underrated in Smash4. She's no longer her horrible Brawl nerf.

 

[Raoh]

I have a hard time believing Charizard is the absolute worst. Flare Blitz can punish almost everything.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Honestly, Charizard is being slept on, it's just that nobody in tournaments plays him. I use him a fair bit and I feel Zards options can definitely beat other MUs. Plus with customs on Zard moves up a bunch of tiers

 

[san.]

Difference is that there is no one stopping me from using my Mii specials unless a third party intervenes. Adding palutena is an extra rule, just like the 1111 Mii stuff.

I think I'd rather have the arbitrary rule of certain specials banned than soft banning my characters. Doesn't need an agreement, just a TO ruling per area.

 

[Locke 06]

Thank you for this. Completely agreed. And yes, Pac-Man is still thriving off of matchup inexperience (this char is crazy weird, and it doesn't help that 2 people play him)

I just wanted to point out some things.
A thrown fruit can't be caught again. It's both a blessing (opponents can't catch fruits, yay!) and a curse (we lose sooo many opportunities for follow ups)
Unless you mean z drop, do whatever, pick up before it disappears.


The frame data says that Side B comes out on frame 12 doesn't it? I'm still unsure if that is true. I've absorbed charged shots before at point blank range. It may be like skull barrier in that the pellet (or reflecting property, in mega man's case) comes out quicker than recorded.

But I don't know for sure.

If the fruit hits the ground, you can pick it up again, no? If not, then I guess I z-dropped everything. Been a while since I've played Spirst since we've been busy.

MM charge shot is slow (f20). Also, skull barrier reflects f11. Has been researched enough to know that. Wouldn't take much work to find out when the pellet comes out, just frame advance stuff.

 

[Thinkaman]

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

(S) (13.7 | ±0) (13.2 | +1)
(A+) (12.55 | +4) (12.45 | +2) (12.38 | -2)
(A) (11.96 | -2) (11.89 | -2) (11.73 | ±0) (11.13 | ±0) (11.12 | +1) (11.1 | -1 ) (11.08 | +1)
(A-) (10.88 | +1) (10.79 | -2)
(B+) (9.95 | ±0) (9.82 | ±0) (9.78 | ±0) (9.68 | +2) (9.64 | ±0) (9.32 | +3) (9.31 | -3) (9.18 | -1) (9.12 | -1)
(B) (8.85 | ±0) (8.81 | +3) (8.75 | +10) (8.62 | -1) (8.47 | -3) (8.12 | ±0) (8.01 | ±0)
(B-) (7.89 | +2) (7.73 | +11) (7.56 | +2) (7.54 | +3) (7.53 | -8) (7.4 | -4) (7.32 | -3) (7.11 | +1)
(C+) (6.87 | -8) (6.8 | +2) (6.72 | +6) (6.62 | -3) (6.59 | ±0) (6.31 | +2) (6.24 | +5) (6.23 | -5) (6.2 | +5) (6.04 | -3)
(C) (5.93 | ±0) (5.86 | +1) (5.74 | -3)
(C-) (4.86 | ±0)

Gonna chime in (again) that this is a pretty decent list. Most the disputes I'd raise are both minor and have already been voiced. (Diddy is probably S, Charizard and Gunner are unreasonably dismissed, MK is (still) underrated...)

Mewtwo is overrated. I'm pretty confident he is bottom 8 or so, at least.

Funny: C+ tier is the "We Love Customs" low-tier club.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I really wish the game was unpatchable at this point. At least except for adding characters/stages. Why? Because all it does is facilitate crying for nerfs instead of learning to deal

Alright everybody, the votes have been tallied and I have the newest tier list from /r/smashbros for you all. There were no big changes in the poll or game really this month, so it will be interesting to see how people feel about the characters now that the patch has settled a bit and we've had some events..NOW HERE WE GO!

(S) - Best For Tournament Play
(A) - Solo Tournament Viable
(B) - Tournament Viable With Secondaries
(C) - Niche Use
(D) - Not Tournament Viable
(F) - Never Use

Below I do have splits into + and - tiers, and while I don't think they need to be split up THAT much, that's what the numbers showed in comparison for the vote, so just consider them the characters people think are a bit better or worse than the others in their respective categories.

The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results​

(S) (13.7 | ±0) (13.2 | +1)
(A+) (12.55 | +4) (12.45 | +2) (12.38 | -2)
(A) (11.96 | -2) (11.89 | -2) (11.73 | ±0) (11.13 | ±0) (11.12 | +1) (11.1 | -1 ) (11.08 | +1)
(A-) (10.88 | +1) (10.79 | -2)
(B+) (9.95 | ±0) (9.82 | ±0) (9.78 | ±0) (9.68 | +2) (9.64 | ±0) (9.32 | +3) (9.31 | -3) (9.18 | -1) (9.12 | -1)
(B) (8.85 | ±0) (8.81 | +3) (8.75 | +10) (8.62 | -1) (8.47 | -3) (8.12 | ±0) (8.01 | ±0)
(B-) (7.89 | +2) (7.73 | +11) (7.56 | +2) (7.54 | +3) (7.53 | -8) (7.4 | -4) (7.32 | -3) (7.11 | +1)
(C+) (6.87 | -8) (6.8 | +2) (6.72 | +6) (6.62 | -3) (6.59 | ±0) (6.31 | +2) (6.24 | +5) (6.23 | -5) (6.2 | +5) (6.04 | -3)
(C) (5.93 | ±0) (5.86 | +1) (5.74 | -3)
(C-) (4.86 | ±0)


A few things I personally noticed: there's quite a few characters that actually stayed in their place or maybe moved 1-2 spots this month, I think peoples impressions are starting to settle out a bit. Though it seems a few characters are still really seeing radical changes (Kirby and Little Mac WOW) and the mid to lower tiers are having the most fluctuation.

Here are the Miscellaneous Questions!​

[collapse=]
Which character do you think has the most hidden potential?
1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you think is the most overrated?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you think is easiest to use?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you think is hardest to use?

1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you hate to fight the most?

1.
2.
3. /

Which character do you love to fight the most?

1.
2.
3.

Which character do you play as as most?

1.
2.
3.

[/collapse]

So here you go everyone, what do you all think?​

I see a lot of For Glory influence just based off the hidden questions. Most notably, the fact that everyone seems to... enjoy fighting Falcon? Falcon is a pain in the dong to fight when he's played right. And the general consensus is in line with that from a tournament standpoint. The list itself seems pretty solid. One could argue x should be higher than y or whatever but in the end, this list is definitely in line with the our current knowledge of the meta, despite the fact that it is a community one, which I normally despise. This one is aight.

 

[Nu~]

If the fruit hits the ground, you can pick it up again, no? If not, then I guess I z-dropped everything. Been a while since I've played Spirst since we've been busy.

MM charge shot is slow (f20). Also, skull barrier reflects f11. Has been researched enough to know that. Wouldn't take much work to find out when the pellet comes out, just frame advance stuff.

Ah, I see. That makes sense. I'll trust the frame data.

And yes, you must have z dropped them because I know for sure that they lose their "catchable item" property once item tossed.

 

[Thinkaman]

I really wish the game was unpatchable at this point. At least except for adding characters/stages. Why? Because all it does is facilitate crying for nerfs instead of learning to deal

Stupid people complaining on the internet has exactly zero impact on my enjoyment on the game.

Patches have a very positive impact on my enjoyment of the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

"Sakurai-san, everyone seems to be very upset that Snake is better in every single way over Captain Falcon in Brawl"
"Hmm... well now Kojima and I broke up, I guess the only way to not waste the thousands of hours I toiled over Snake's masculine physique and attack data to make him perfect is to just throw it all on Falcon instead".
*the tears and cries from all by Sakurai's infinite wisdom logic filled up the oceans so much that it overflowed into a time paradox 3 billion years ago; hence the explanation of how water came to build up on Earth in such vast quantities to support life*



Well I can't be overly confident in my opinions on them with customs but in general
Doc still has a Mario kit with a better jump height for using his low landing lag/easy auto cancels in neutral. Customs give him some really cool options. His recovery is bad but he's able to get back/avoid those off stage death traps better than people give him credit for. Not really unviable as much as he's overshadowed by Mario and is more exploitable.

Bowser Jr suffers being unable to kill but has excessive damage output and a reliable early percent combo game (i.e. any confirm low percent is like 80% damage, it's ludicrous). However, beyond that he is generally overly limited. There is a lot of counterplay to his kit in terms of his up-b and his mecha koopa. This balance between his strengths and weaknesses haven't come out too well for him. Out of all the bottom half of the cast he's likely the "best" overall but is close to one of the worst killers in the entire game.

Wii Fit Trainer may have tough top tier match ups, but has arguably abusive abilities in her for frustrating everyone else. Likely the best character off stage by a noticeable margin (if she could spend the entire time out there, she would, and she does against nearly everyone). Generally underrated, she likely has polarising match ups against many characters. If you don't see Sheiks, Diddys, Zero Suits, Pikas (etc) in your region, you probably are capable of winning tournaments with her.

Pit is a very strong/solid character with no super weakness, but no super overbearing numbers either. Underrated in the West as our gameplay focuses more on best options/consistent damage output over fundamentals. Having a strong neutral but no free-40% or kill set up down throw hurts. But it's hard to see this character actually having losing match ups with barely anyone. ZSS seems tough for him, maybe Sheik too due to being stronger at mid range but so so so few characters can claim to be better/more diverse in mid range than Pit. I think a few small things like having an annoying voice and being unpopular in the West in general (+his playstyle from previous games being nausea inducing) is holding him back from being played as much as he's actually capable of succeeding.

Lucario I maintain is kinda "trash". He has debilitating weaknesses and an aura-crutch that shapes everything about him. His base kit being noticeably worse than Brawl (IMO) took away a lot of his strengths in managing neutral and eventually having aura help to clinch things. Now he's relying on aura to help him out and still generally requires hard reads to succeed even with Aura on him. Still a reactive-based character with a few solid moves in his kit, I think he is just outshone by the likes of Mario or Falcon. How well you can use Aura is a player-by-player thing though, even if I think it's fair to call him low tier, he can still produce top-tier results given the right conditions.

Jigglypuff seems to not really have much going for her, with no strong adhesive abilities to keep the game going in her favour. Rest is very strong and she has tons of room to grow into using it. In the long term she could rise up quite a lot when/if a player comes along who can manage the risk/reward of Rest appropriately in their favour. But until then (and unless you have that degree of mastery with her) she seems like one of the worst characters in the cast. Her weight class is the worst debilitating weaknesses a character can have, and very few characters can be consistent with sub-100% deaths being a majority of your stocks.

Ike is between underrated to weak. Definitely doesn't feel as if he's stronger than Marth anymore with dancing blade working, but prior to that he was likely the most viable Fire Emblem character. Super weight, disjoints, safe-ish moves used correctly, good mobility specs, a better recovery / different game conditions (not being cg'd to death) all make out to me that he should be strong[er] in the metagame, but it doesn't really work out. I would put it down to having an abysmal mid range game (i.e. almost non existent) with a not-usable dash attack and dash forward aerials being generally telegraphed and punishable on whiff. I think what hurts him a lot from Brawl is his Jab not being god-tier anymore, the jab Fox has now is essentially what Ike lost, and without it being an adhesive that gives him dominant close range gameplay he falls apart in practice even with all the boons he received.

The F-smash buff on Bowser Jr is super underrated. Thing is like the best anti-air in the game now, and the hitbox on the up-angled version is good enough to even hit short characters on the ground. Also I would argue Bowser Jr is actually one of the better characters at getting KOs reliably when you look at his options in the positive state. U-smash DESTROYS ledge getups for free. D-air beats almost everything offstage. Mechakoopa toss offstage is amazing for gimps and unlike ROB Gyro actually can be set up quickly on demand. Then of course there's Kart -> Up-B -> Hammer which KO confirms for a pretty generous range. His F-air and B-air also have decent autocancels and are good kill moves as well.

Personally me, I'm just as baffled that Pit isn't popular competitively. Pit is one of few characters who has a strong F-throw for KOs. The sheer position advantage you get from having something like that is really underrated, especially given how much less telegraphed it is than trying to set up a position dependent B-throw KO.

 

[Thinkaman]

The F-smash buff on Bowser Jr is super underrated. Thing is like the best anti-air in the game now, and the hitbox on the up-angled version is good enough to even hit short characters on the ground. Also I would argue Bowser Jr is actually one of the better characters at getting KOs reliably when you look at his options in the positive state. U-smash DESTROYS ledge getups for free. D-air beats almost everything offstage. Mechakoopa toss offstage is amazing for gimps and unlike ROB Gyro actually can be set up quickly on demand. Then of course there's Kart -> Up-B -> Hammer which KO confirms for a pretty generous range. His F-air and B-air also have decent autocancels and are good kill moves as well.

I am inclined to agree, though dair isn't quite the wonder-tool you make it out to be.

Now, if they fix his repeating jab (like Robin's)...

Personally me, I'm just as baffled that Pit isn't popular competitively. Pit is one of few characters who has a strong F-throw for KOs. The sheer position advantage you get from having something like that is really underrated, especially given how much less telegraphed it is than trying to set up a position dependent B-throw KO.

This!

 

[Emblem Lord]

I really wish the game was unpatchable at this point. At least except for adding characters/stages. Why? Because all it does is facilitate crying for nerfs instead of learning to deal

I see a lot of For Glory influence just based off the hidden questions. Most notably, the fact that everyone seems to... enjoy fighting Falcon? Falcon is a pain in the dong to fight when he's played right. And the general consensus is in line with that from a tournament standpoint. The list itself seems pretty solid. One could argue x should be higher than y or whatever but in the end, this list is definitely in line with the our current knowledge of the meta, despite the fact that it is a community one, which I normally despise. This one is aight.

Doesnt that tell you that most CF mains are dumbasses and don't play him right? When played well he's just as lame as any other top tier.

 

[Nu~]

The F-smash buff on Bowser Jr is super underrated. Thing is like the best anti-air in the game now, and the hitbox on the up-angled version is good enough to even hit short characters on the ground. Also I would argue Bowser Jr is actually one of the better characters at getting KOs reliably when you look at his options in the positive state. U-smash DESTROYS ledge getups for free. D-air beats almost everything offstage. Mechakoopa toss offstage is amazing for gimps and unlike ROB Gyro actually can be set up quickly on demand. Then of course there's Kart -> Up-B -> Hammer which KO confirms for a pretty generous range. His F-air and B-air also have decent autocancels and are good kill moves as well.

Personally me, I'm just as baffled that Pit isn't popular competitively. Pit is one of few characters who has a strong F-throw for KOs. The sheer position advantage you get from having something like that is really underrated, especially given how much less telegraphed it is than trying to set up a position dependent B-throw KO.

It never felt like that strong of a kill throw for me...
However, if it doesn't kill, it's still great for setting up arrow gimps