Character Competitive Impressions

[Anomilus]

Oh well. I'll try other moves though. I'm just keeping in mind that the opponent does undergo a tiny bit of landing lag if jabbed close to the ground. Maybe something faster will land.

 

[Thinkaman]

Oh well. I'll try other moves though. I'm just keeping in mind that the opponent does undergo a tiny bit of landing lag if jabbed close to the ground. Maybe something faster will land.

Right, it's very similar to Palutena's Jab 1, and Confusion itself. The actual opponent options and lag timings in play revolve heavily on matchup and their %.

Edit: Note that you (barely) cannot Confusion -> Shield -> Jab 1 -> Grab/Confusion, even if they let you.

Edit 2: You can, however, Confusion -> (Shield optional) -> Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Grab/Confusion, which is awesome.

Edit 3: Okay, guys, Mewtwo Jab 1 is disgusting. A lot of stuff on non-floaties seems guaranteed. We need to look into this, stat.

 

[Locke 06]

First day impression: Mewtwo is Zelda mixed with Samus mixed with Marth. But mostly Zelda with a worse footsie game due to a slow walk and a longer foxtrot.

Also, I intentionally left out Skull Barrier, because it for some reason can't reflect fully charged Shadow Ball. Investigating further today.
Edit: It can't reflect any projectile that does at least 25%. Odd.

Correct. You cannot reflect anything that does >25%. You can reflect a charge shot in training, but not a fresh charge shot.

Seems to be %dependent on the projectile instead of cumulative "reflector health" but it's not fully understood.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It makes sense to me as "balancing" doesn't mean the same to people as "bug fixing". And an entire character's special set being altered together in one go is dubious (Zelda). "Objectively false" is also really hard to get behind when the context is of a subjective nature. No one is going to argue with you that customs weren't patched, that's straight forward and unambiguous, however they aren't going to become aligned with your rhetoric when your proof for your conclusion is an outlier.

Were the Burning Spin Dash changes not real? A lot of Sonics claimed it, and while I know Thinkaman's two console set-up had no easy way to test custom specials, I was pretty convinced it was real on the basis of their specific claims (things like "it now loses to the Timber Counter sapling" are really specific) that the change was real. Given how modest the change list in this patch is in general, I considered the total sum of Order Tackle, Burning Spin Dash, and Zelda's universal phantom changes to be very substantial (most of the cast is barely changed customs or not). This is doubly the case when we consider that most testing has been on default characters for changes so custom specific changes are radically less likely to be found at this time, and any changes to unpopular custom specials that are modest and of the nature to tweak parameters that dantarion's sweep of the files won't pick up will probably never be noticed (I'm pretty sure every patch so far has had changes we never figured out). I'm pretty dubious of trying to divine developer intent in the first place and make important policy decisions based on that (even if they weren't changed, we have no idea what the developers are thinking and further cannot possibly reasonably reach conclusions about things like game balance from this line of thinking), but in this case, it seems obvious the custom specials are being tweaked for several possible reasons likely including balance.

 

[|RK|]

Just want to say that Mewtwo's Shadow Ball messes him up if he doesn't reflect it. It's nice having it as Kirby. I really appreciate the improvement to Inhale... much safer if I whiff.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Mewtwo's biggest problem seems to be that he has truly awful approach options; he has stuff that's safe on block, but none of it seems practical at all to use on the move (and he moves so slowly on top of that!).

Wouldn't a slightly-charged Shadow Ball give him an approach? It's not a fast approach obviously, but it is on the move. That's the usual use-case for projectiles that move at walking speed, like Guile's jab-strength Sonic Booms

 

[Thinkaman]

So point blank Jab 1 is a ~true combo into itself or grab on:

• People heavier than Mario at generally any %
• People who fall faster than Mario at generally any %
• People who are comparable to Mario in fall speed at ~50%+
• Peach and Mewtwo (thanks to slow double jump arcs) at ~50%+

Only the floatiest characters besides those two can always escape except in rare low-% situations:

• Rosalina
• Luigi
• Jigglypuff
• Kirby

Of those 4 floaty characters, at high %s Mewtwo can instead try for buffer fair. A double jump will not dodge this. Luigi can beat it with nair, and Jigglypuff can beat it with Rest. (Peach nair and Mewtwo nair/fair would win as well) Otherwise, air dodge is the only option to avoid it.

 

[Blobface]

What do people think would be a good doubles team? I'd imagine something like Sheik + Ganon where the characters usually hate each others guts would be a good team. Either that, or two characters who are good at the same thing.

Also, I'm curious what people think about Bowser after this patch. Did he benefit from any top-tier nerfs?

 

[Thinkaman]

What do people think would be a good doubles team? I'd imagine something like Sheik + Ganon where the characters usually hate each others guts would be a good team. Either that, or two characters who are good at the same thing.

This is a reeeally detailed topic with a lot of nuance and debate.

Certain weaknesses are mitigated to a large extent in teams if and only if you have a teammate(s) that are good at mitigating it. (Which isn't the same as not having the weakness!)

For example, Little Mac has trouble recovering. Luigi does not have trouble recovering, comparatively. But if Little Mac is getting edge-guarded, he doesn't need a teammate who can recover. He needs a teammate who can drop everything, run over, and force the opponent to not edgeguard Mac. (Or punish them for going off-stage.) Luigi isn't that guy, yet another Little Mac actually is.

Some aspects vary wildly in value based on team compositions. With some allies, charge-up moves are worse. With some, they are better. With some, grab-heavy games are better. With some, they are worse. Also see: Projectiles, Juggling, and Juggle Vulnerability.

The one thing I find immutably more valuable across all types of team comps is running speed. The ability to respond on a strategic, map-wide level is really important.

Edit: The only character I would say is unconditionally better in teams is Little Mac, and the only characters I would say are unconditionally worse in teams are Olimar and Rosalina. They aren't awful and it's possible to carve out niches for them in 4v4, but they have fundamental resource allocation issues when dealing with multiple threats.

 

[Talazala]

Also, I'm curious what people think about Bowser after this patch. Did he benefit from any top-tier nerfs?

I believe it goes without saying that everyone benefits from the top-tier nerfs, except the top-tiers, it's just a matter of who benefits more. The match up between Bowser and Shiek has always not been in his favor. Her bair may have been nerfed but she can still rush in and swat him around. So yes, but not really. Then again I don't play bowser so I can't say for sure.

As for Diddy, the nerf seems pretty big so maybe there is some good news for bowser. I don't think the match up was terrible before? With all these nerfs, Bowser might do well vs Diddy now.

 

[Thinkaman]

Diddy and Sheik were (and still are) particularly unkind to heavies--a little more-so than most the other top characters. The heavies appreciate the prospective new environment slightly more than other characters.

Edit: It's also great news for Yoshi, who imo was the "top" character who suffered most against Sheik, and to a lesser extent Diddy.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

What do people think would be a good doubles team? I'd imagine something like Sheik + Ganon where the characters usually hate each others guts would be a good team. Either that, or two characters who are good at the same thing.

You will want at least one char with a solid approach and neutral and at least one char with powerful kill setups off of that approach, so Ganon Sheik would fulfill that. If the more patient character on the team is heavier he can tank stocks too to allow the more aggressive one to take greater risks, which is becoming a popular strategy in teams in general. So Ganon and Shiek can do that as well.

But the best teams will be able to support each other and feed each other damage and kills in both directions. While Ganon can obviously do work off of a good Sheik confirm Sheik isn't really able to significantly follow up after Ganon gets a hit in the same way before the other team regains some control. Haven't had the joy of finding a doubles partner I really click with yet in Smash 4 but in Brawl me and a friend found moderate success with DK Pikachu, as a clean hit from either of those two can lead into the partner following up for a more damage or closing the stock. Pikachu in particular can followup heavier vertical hits more than most thanks to Thunder being an amazing vertical chase. I imagine a similar strategy can be used in Smash 4.

I'd like to see more Samus team comps in doubles, Samus is heavy enough to tank stocks, can comfortably support her teammate's approach from a safe distance and take people out with charge shot after her teammate gets a good confirm. She also has reasonably good normals and combos which a teammate could add reward to and certain teammates like Ness or G&W can absorb her projectiles when there's time.

Edit: Bowser will gain more against Sheik after the nerfs. The loss of killing power on those chars is obviously good for bowser but Diddy still overpowers Bowser in the neutral and will be comboing him for days. Sheik also still has the frame data to pull bowser apart at close range and the neutral to get in easily. It's better but bowser prolly still loses to both these characters.

 

[Terotrous]

Edit: It's also great news for Yoshi, who imo was the "top" character who suffered most against Sheik, and to a lesser extent Diddy.

I don't really see how the Sheik nerfs help Yoshi that much. It was always the needles that wrecked his face. Sheik is almost certainly still his worst MU unless some character who got buffed is a secret Yoshi counter.

His matchup against Diddy is definitely far more favourable now, though. If Diddy wants kills at any reasonable percentage, he has to try to make reads with his smash attacks, and Yoshi's entire gameplan involves frustrating you into making bad guesses and then punishing hard (he is also capable of being frustratingly safe if he wants to be). I honestly think Yoshi vs Diddy Kong might be +1 Yoshi now.

Edit 2: You can, however, Confusion -> (Shield optional) -> Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Grab/Confusion, which is awesome.

This is legitimately disgusting. Is the grab still guaranteed after 2 jab 1s?

 

[kj22]

The post I've been wanted to do for ages, that the placebo crowds wouldn't let me.

Let's talk about Mewtwo.

Good Auto-Cancels and Bad OoS

Let's get this out of the way first: Nair FH ACs pretty liberally, almost as soon as the hitboxes vanish. Everything else SH ACs. Mewtwo has a lot of freedom as long as he is on the offensive.

Meanwhile, Mewtwo's OoS options are trash. He has a decent grab and modestly-fast-but-low-range u-smash. Don't overlook fair. Beyond that, nair is okay but that's it. The saving grace is that he does have kill throws, and u-smash is nothing to scoff at. Still, few characters have as poor OoS options as this.

His Teleport is so short that unlike Palutena, it has no use-case--even situational--of being used in place of a roll.

F-Smashes

Mewtwo has no "d-smash", but he does have 3 "f-smashes", each with pros and cons.

F-smash is frame 19.
It does 15%/19% (more at tip, like Samus) uncharged.
The range is medium, pretty good among f-smashes.
It has very high shield push and high endlag.
This means it is unpunishable for most characters on normal block and punishable on spot-dodge but chargeable; so swim at own risk.

D-smash is frame 21.
It does 15% uncharged.
It has lower range, and unlike the other options is decent at hitting enemies on ledges.
Medium shield push and very low endlag.
This means it is unpunishable for all characters on normal block and unpunishable on spot-dodge, plus chargeable.

Disable is frame 16, and cannot clash. (It is a transcendent projectile.) If they jab you on frame 16, it doesn't matter.
Can be started in the air while landing to come out even faster.
It always leads to a partially charged shutter-stepped-tip f-smash for ~20-25%. (More enemy damage and slower mashing = more damage, but you can always get an f-smash. The daze wakeup animation time is long enough.)
It is slightly longer range than f-smash, but will miss low-ducking opponents as well as miss opponents not facing Mewtwo.
It has very poor shield push and high endlag.
This means it is liberally punishable by any character in the game on block and punishable on spot-dodge; unchangeable.
Reflectable.
Cannot hit enemies who are in tumble.

These 3 options are very similar, and Mewtwo can consider all 3 alternatives in almost any case where he would use one. As a general rule, there is a general spread of Speed+Power+Range vs. Safety:

(fast AND strong AND ranged) Disable <---> F-smash <---> D-Smash (safe)

Edit: I want to emphasize that no frame ~16 move in the game has a punishment quite as harsh as disable, with good range to boot. It's VERY aggressively positioned on the speed/power/range curve, and has all of these weird unique disadvantages to make this possible.

Reflector + Strong Projectile

No character in any Smash game has ever truly had a strong projectile and a reflector until now. Ness, Mii Gunner, and Villager all have disqualifying traits to their projectiles for purposes of this discussion.) It is a unique combination; something is normally "against the rules." (This is on top of his projectile being both very powerful and very safe, though low damage without charge.)

This means that Mewtwo can force approaches better than almost anyone. Letting him charge up and spam his super-safe 25% KO-ing death ball is a non-starter. Trying to harass him with poke is also a non-starter, though the extent to which reflectors can combat this varies as always.

But not only does Mewtwo uniquely enjoy both of these neutral advantages, he also benefits from the unique dynamic of having both with regards to enemy reflectors.

Mewtwo has a favored sweetspot range where he can throw a Shadow Ball, and Confusion it back if it is reflected! No other character in the game does this with a KO-able projectile, except Villager in very isolated cases with default Timber + Pocket.

Mewtwo's Confusion is a 1.4x multiplier. Many of you know where this is going.

Once a projectile reaches 50% (so for Mewtwo, a 2.0x multiplier), it cannot be reflected again. This means if Shadow Ball is reflected by an ordinary 1.5x reflector, and Mewtwo Confusions it back, it is now at 2.1x and will break any further Reflect attempts.

Taking into account the enemy reflector ratio...

• 2.1x Fox Amplifying Reflector
• 2.0x (Dark) Pit Amplifying Orbitars (safe on break)
• 2.0x Ness F-Smash
• 1.8x R.O.B. Reflector Arm
• 1.5x (Dark) Pit Guardian Orbitars (safe on break)
  
• 1.5x (Dr.) Mario Cape (default or Gust)
• 1.5x R.O.B. Rotor Arm (default or Backwards)
• 1.5x Mii Swordfighter Rainbow Slash
  
• 1.4x Fox Reflector (default or Big)
• 1.4x Mii Gunner Echo Reflector
• 1.4x Mewtwo Confusion
• 1.25x Nayru's Love (default or Rejection)
• 1.2x Falco Reflector
• 1.2 Mega Man Skull Barrier (can only reflect up to 25% instead of 50%, so moot point)
• 1.17x Palutena Reflect Barrier
• 1.0x Falco Accele-Reflector (increases projectile speed significantly)

...Mewtwo can select a strength of Shadow Ball that will allow him to win the ping pong (ideally max 25% where possible.) Consult the following chart:

And of course, it can still be negated/absorbed by the usual suspects:

• Ness PSI Magnet (default or Forward)
• Mr. G&W Oil Panic
• Falco Reflector Void
• Rosalina Gravitation Pull or Guardian Luma
• Villager Pocket (all)
  • Pocket resets the multiplier to 1.9x. Villager can always Pocket Shadow Ball, but you can always reflect it back.
• Mii Gunner Absorbing Vortex

In other words, Mewtwo is uniquely well equipped to fight Mario, R.O.B., default (Dark) Pit, and default Palutena at range.

Confusion

Confusion is a pretty cool move! It's a shockingly big micro-jump when used in the air, almost like a Yoshi up-b. It's a command grab, which means it does beat super armor but also follows regrab prohibition timing. You cannot Confusion someone shortly after a grab including another Confusion.

Confusion does a respectable 9%. It puts the opponent at a slight frame advantage but an awful position. This is very similar to how Palutena's Jab1 works, but more pronounced and without a grab option. The opponent has these options and consequences:

• Do nothing
  • Mewtwo gets a free sweetspot f-smash, even if he shielded and has to drop it.
  • This is strictly the worse option.
• Do nothing but tech (either in-place or roll)
  • This will dodge a buffered uncharged f/d-smash, but that's about it.
  • Pretty bad.
• Air dodge (into ground)
  • Will have landing lag and eat a free sweetspot f-smash, even if he shielded and has to drop it.
  • Will dodge buffered tilts, but suffer a small frame disadvantage based on fall speed.
  • Not advisable.
• Double jump away
  • No guaranteed Mewtwo followup, ever.
  • ...but now you're in the air about Mewtwo with no (or one less) double jump.
  • Usually the best, safest option.
• Do an aerial
  • Will suffer landing lag.
  • Will interrupt a f-smash.
  • Will usually interrupt fair and tilts (even u-tilt), unless it's just really slow.
    • Characters with slow fairs but fast nairs (like Mario) can do nairs instead
  • Will eat a Mewtwo tipper f-smash if he shutter-steps backwards to dodge (punishes the landing lag)
  • Mewtwo can always powershield it.
    • ...But Mewtwo's OoS options are very poor.
    • If the aerial is poorly spaced, he can OoS u-smash.
    • If the aerial has enough landing lag, he can shield-drop hyphen u-smash, Disable, Shadow Ball, or f-smash.
      • Landing hitboxes on fairs like Bowser Jr, Pikachu, or Falco will give Mewtwo less time.
      • Disable may miss due to the landing animation style.
    • Otherwise, he will probably just shield-drop f-tilt.
    • Remember, he can't grab! (Which is what you'd normally do in this situation.)
• Do a Sheik fair
  • No landing lag (auto-cancels)
  • Mewtwo can powershield it, but frame advantage is almost zero (after Mewtwo shield-drop) due to no landing lag.
    • Mewtwo can only jab Sheik OoS, and not if she DIs properly.
    • Remember, he can't grab! (Which is what you'd normally do in this situation.)
  • Will interrupt all other actions, including movement or spot dodge.

But now what about Aerial Confusion?

• You can still double jump away, but you are much less likely to have that option here.
• Mewtwo has slightly less frame disadvantage; he can air dodge any counter-attack, including Sheik fair.
• Mewtwo can follow up on most characters with uair. If Mewtwo has his double jump, he can double-jump fair or nair as well. These will all lose to most fast enemy aerials, and can be avoided by a buffered air dodge.
• If Mewtwo unleashes a fully charged Shadow Ball, it will hit any enemy who does a buffered air-dodge or any non-moment-altering aerial other than a Sheik fair.
• A delayed air dodge will avoid the Shadow Ball, but eat the instant DJ fair.

In conclusion I think Mewtwo loses to Sheik and Fox pretty bad, and probably Diddy, Falcon, and Mac too. (He hates pressure and vertical kills.) Otherwise a cool character with a few surprisingly interesting tools. The Ganondorf analogy is very apt; the more you examine him, the more his decisions bear a striking resemblance.

I liked this write up. You should do more (read:Marth ;b)

 

[Thinkaman]

This is legitimately disgusting. Is the grab still guaranteed after 2 jab 1s?

No, it's all spacing dependent. Confusion -> (shield) -> Jab 1 isn't even guaranteed if spaced.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Edit 2: You can, however, Confusion -> (Shield optional) -> Jab 1 -> Jab 1 -> Grab/Confusion, which is awesome.
.

So, Jab leads into Confusion, and Confusion leads into Jab....

What is keeping this from looping repeatedly? Confusion not actually guaranteed?

 

[Anomilus]

So, Jab leads into Confusion, and Confusion leads into Jab....

What is keeping this from looping repeatedly? Confusion not actually guaranteed?

Proper DI, as Thinkaman said. Or just don't attack Mewtwo if he's going to shield after confusion. Or jump away.

Jab -> Jab -> Confusion is more of a potential reset than a combo loop.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Still, [Confusion followups are] definitely not bad for mixing it up.

God I love Mewtwo lol

Smooth Criminal

 

[Smog Frog]

mewtwo is mindgames the character, a perfect fit for his psychic type. well done, sakurai. at least he got that right.

confusion, jab are all mixups, mixups, MIXUPS! you can throw in a random disable somewhere in the line and end a stock lol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Proper DI, as Thinkaman said. Or just don't attack Mewtwo if he's going to shield after confusion. Or jump away.

Jab -> Jab -> Confusion is more of a potential reset than a combo loop.

So only a loop on stupid people

Got it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Mewtwo can go so deep off-stage. His recovery is so good, thanks to Confusion, his double jump, and short duration aerials.

On top of all this, warp goes way farther when done horizontally than vertically, because it retains tosn of horizontal momentum. Go try it.

Most float characters convert horizontal distance into vertical distance as a generous rate. But Mewtwo actually prefers to recover horizontally to the ledge when given a choice, because of this.

 

[Nobie]

Do you think Mewtwo's bizarrely strict ledge snap is an oversight or an intentional flaw given how good its recovery is?

 

[Radical Larry]

I feel like with the buffs Ganondorf's being given, he can actually have potential to reach high tier status instead of middle tier status. It's just a preliminary guess and prediction, but results can say otherwise. With customs, Ganondorf can indeed reach high tier status easily.

With Link, I feel it's now necessary for him to use Boomerang, Quickfire Bow and Meteor Bombs for him to reach high tier status. In normal, I feel like he can be middle to upper middle tier, at the least.

 

[Yonder]

If Mewtwo wasn't so light, he'd be upper Mid I feel. But I think he's mid tier as is. Kind of reminds me of a better Game and Watch. At least he can both kill and edgeguard unlike Game and Watch, who can only edgeguard. Also Mewtwo has a better projectile overall. Mewtwo surprises me as to how easily he can chain into his fair at times.

 

[Terotrous]

No, it's all spacing dependent. Confusion -> (shield) -> Jab 1 isn't even guaranteed if spaced.

I know that confusion -> Jab 1 isn't guaranteed, I was wondering if the rest was guaranteed if you got the first jab.

 

[Luco]

There were occasions, especially in Brawl where characters loved being with people who could directly cover their weaknesses - usually CGs of some sort. Any character who had trouble with CGs (Link, PSI kids, Ganny, anyone in theory vs. ICs lel, one of the reasons ICs got strictly worse in doubles) loved teams because CGs weren't often viable because they took time (duh).

In smash 4 the dynamic is a tad different. The chaotic nature of teams means 'having someone who fills your proverbial void' isn't necessarily going to make you invincible. As Thinkaman aptly pointed out, generally the best thing is to have a mobile character who can aid you quickly should it be needed. Some characters have special conditions that means being paired with someone in particular really helps them (peeps with high damage energy projectiles/attacks + Bucket/absorption field/PSI Magnet weeeeeee <3 ). That said, in some areas it is nice to have someone who can help do what you can't. This is most notable in terms of killing. I agree that Sheik or probably even Diddy now would enjoy being with someone like customs Ike or Ganny who will probably get that decisive Fair or Bair in there somewhere that takes the opponent's stock whilst Sheik/Diddy are busy trying to apply damage.

But on the other hand, two heavies such as Ike and Ganny would probably be quite good together too. Like they're both doing so much cumulative damage and getting kills early so the fact that they have trouble in disadvantage state is less meaningful because they can help each other out if one is getting juggled for instance.

There are many different dimensions to this, but that's one of the more obvious ones I can think of.

Also I'm only now just realising how good Fair is. It used to feel like because the range was so short, as soon as I got in there to use it I'd just get kicked out but I'm finding there was some really nice opportunities to it in conjunction with like, Dtilt and I just feels so satisfyinggggggggg <3

 

[Thinkaman]

I know that confusion -> Jab 1 isn't guaranteed, I was wondering if the rest was guaranteed if you got the first jab.

No, they can have the spacing to push out of the jabs.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Shadow Ball Reset via @shofu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8Ld-vl8hO0

(Was this linked here already? I don't see it anywhere.)

 

[Terotrous]

Shadow Ball Reset

This was just linked on GF. It's cool, but in both the situations in that video where they land it it requires a clearly substandard option after confusion (do nothing or air dodge, which as we know from Thinkaman's post are never good choices), so it's not that straightforward to land it.

Other setups might exist though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

None of what made Sheik strong was nerfed, Fair Bouncing fish and Needles.
She still screws Yoshi pretty hard. Only thing she lost is bair as a killing move, but she'd get more fair kills off us pre patch anyways before she'd ever get bair which is much more rare.

 

[Puppyfaic]

Shadow Ball Reset via @shofu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8Ld-vl8hO0

(Was this linked here already? I don't see it anywhere.)

I was just about to talk about this myself. If they're unable to react to Confusion, an uncharged Shadow Ball will jab-lock them and earn you any follow-up of your choice. It's insanely deadly. Though I figured this out before Shofu did it.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What do people think would be a good doubles team? I'd imagine something like Sheik + Ganon where the characters usually hate each others guts would be a good team. Either that, or two characters who are good at the same thing.

Also, I'm curious what people think about Bowser after this patch. Did he benefit from any top-tier nerfs?

Can confirm that Sheik + Ganon can destroy people.

I was just about to talk about this myself. If they're unable to react to Confusion, an uncharged Shadow Ball will jab-lock them and earn you any follow-up of your choice. It's insanely deadly. Though I figured this out before Shofu did it.

Uhm, people can and will jump out of it. Not teching that is pretty rare unless you're facing people on For Glory or the AI.
EDIT: Double post sorry guys.

 

[Puppyfaic]

Uhm, people can and will jump out of it. Not teching that is pretty rare unless you're facing people on For Glory or the AI.
EDIT: Double post sorry guys.

I think you missed the "If they're unable to react" part.

 

[FimPhym]

If they are unable to react to confusion hitting them, I believe you could also run up and f smash before they shield. I'd call a doctor.

It's a cool set up for general jab lock shenanigans though. I'm sure that'll happen here and there.

 

[Terotrous]

I kinda feel like Mewtwo's Dthrow and Confusion, while not technically having amazing followups, are moves that make the opponent antsy if used repeatedly because they know if they choose a bad option or get read it could hurt like hell. Against a character like Mewtwo or Ganon you have to be on your game at all times because one mistake can be fatal, and that pressure can crack some people.

A psychic / evil despot always has to make sure to win the mental battle.

 

[Nobie]

There's something that's been bothering me about Mewtwo's nair, and it's not the short range on it.

In Melee, when you landed while doing a nair, Mewtwo would give one last jolt with extra knockback. In Smash 4, while this happens in the air, it doesn't trigger on the ground, which makes it less safe overall.

 

[meleebrawler]

There's something that's been bothering me about Mewtwo's nair, and it's not the short range on it.

In Melee, when you landed while doing a nair, Mewtwo would give one less jolt with extra knockback. In Smash 4, while this happens in the air, it doesn't trigger on the ground, which makes it less safe overall.

Then don't use it as an approach on grounded enemies. It does piss poor damage like that anyway.

Nair's damage nerf strangely didn't seem to be brought up much, but I guess that's because pretty much everything
else about Mewtwo pretty much got stronger.

Anyone try seeing if mid-air Confusions cause shenanigans with platform-standing opponents?

 

[Teshie U]

Has anyone checked frame advantages on confusion dropping people on battlefield/halberd platforms? The hitbox on upsmash seems to make all options get sucked in no matter what on such a small platform.

I think Mewtwo could be extremely dangerous on Halberd with upsmash killing people as low as 50%.

 

[Ulevo]

So after playing with Mewtwo there's a few impressions I have.

1) Far too light to be justified. From an archetype perspective alone, should be at least Rosalina's weight.
2) It is highly unfortunate that Teleport is the way it is. Compared to it's Melee incarnation, it's poor. I was expecting it to at least be better than Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape in terms of safety and ability to dodge. Not only is it poor and unsafe at doing so, it is inconsistent with its sweet spotting. I've had times where I have Teleported to a ledge at 180 degrees, hit the ledge without snapping to it, and popped upwards in free fall.
3) The fact that you cannot combo out of down throw is incredibly stupid, and makes down throw largely useless. It does less damage than forward and back throw, has no kill power, and can't even set up tech situations on stages like Battlefield because the knockback is too low. When will you ever use this?
4) Neutral air out of all of his aerials should be designed with little landing lag in order to utilize its potential. Unfortunately the landing lag it has is too much for it to be used for combo potential or follow ups.
5) Up throw is highly disappointing. It's stronger than most up throws, yes, but why would you ever use it when you can just back throw near a blast zone? I mean, the throw kills at what, 130-140% on most characters? Okay. I can kill people off the top at 80% with Meta Knight. If up throw was to be his defining kill move, it should have been stronger.
6) Mewtwo's neutral is poor largely due to his floatiness. Forward air is excellent, however the time it takes to land when you try to auto cancel it makes you susceptible to dash grabs and dash attacks, or any form of quick movement.
7) I don't have the frame data on Mewtwo's rolls or dodges, but from my experience playing with him they seem atrocious. His techs in particular are really bad, and leave him exposed for far longer than they should.
8) I understand they want to differentiate Lucario and Mewtwo, but was taking away the active hitbox to his charging Shadow Ball really necessary? Arbitrarily nerfing a character.

He's a really cool character, and he has a lot of really great things. Unfortunately, these cool things only seduce you in to using a character with some very real, highly unnecessary flaws. I feel he's solidly low mid tier, maybe high mid tier if someone really good exposed potential with him. Hope this gets patched later when Nintendo realizes no one is using him in like a month.

 

[Terotrous]

1) Far too light to be justified. From an archetype perspective alone, should be at least Rosalina's weight.

No, I can see why he's so light. He's basically a Ganon in terms of power, but without Ganon's biggest weakness (which is his poor approach). The projectile shores up most of Ganon's weaknesses, and the reflector most of the others, if he didn't have some big drawback he'd just be way too good. Despite his low weight, his survivability is actually okay thanks to his great recovery. I find he tends to live about the same amount of time as Ganon, for what it's worth.

3) The fact that you cannot combo out of down throw is incredibly stupid, and makes down throw largely useless. It does less damage than forward and back throw, has no kill power, and can't even set up tech situations on stages like Battlefield because the knockback is too low. When will you ever use this?

I find it's pretty decent when the opponent has around 70%, they bounce high enough for Mewtwo to run up and be threatening. Sure, they have various options, but nothing that completely gets them out of danger, and if Mewtwo gets the right read he can hit really hard, in particular if they guess badly and you get an UpSmash they're probably dead. If you are unable to get anything big at this percent, it's only a little bit more before you can just use a kill throw instead.

4) Neutral air out of all of his aerials should be designed with little landing lag in order to utilize its potential. Unfortunately the landing lag it has is too much for it to be used for combo potential or follow ups.

I'll admit I don't find neutral air all that useful. I feel like in every situation where I might use it, forward air is better. Due to Mewtwo's air speed is just doesn't function well as a cross-up the way other similar moves sometimes do.

5) Up throw is highly disappointing. It's stronger than most up throws, yes, but why would you ever use it when you can just back throw near a blast zone? I mean, the throw kills at what, 130-140% on most characters? Okay. I can kill people off the top at 80% with Meta Knight. If up throw was to be his defining kill move, it should have been stronger.

Because you might not have your back to the blast zone? 130% is a totally fine percentage to kill with a throw, and if you happen to be on the top platform of BF or some other spot with a low blastzone it can kill at like 110%.

However, it is definitely not his best kill move. That position belongs to USmash. USmash quite frequently kills at like 85-90%. God forbid if it's charged or he has a lot of rage. Uthrow is just a scary backup option that prevents you from simply trying to scout out the USmash (and it true combos off a jab at kill percent vs almost the entire cast). Oh, and Mewtwo can edgeguard, too. Dair is almost Ganon Footstomp status.

6) Mewtwo's neutral is poor largely due to his floatiness. Forward air is excellent, however the time it takes to land when you try to auto cancel it makes you susceptible to dash grabs and dash attacks, or any form of quick movement.

Mewtwo doesn't really do air to ground. Make use of his great grounded pokes (Dtilt, Utilt), jab, grab, shadow ball, and confusion for neutral. It gets the job done. His aerials are quite decent for air to air, where his floatiness is also an asset.

7) I don't have the frame data on Mewtwo's rolls or dodges, but from my experience playing with him they seem atrocious. His techs in particular are really bad, and leave him exposed for far longer than they should.

I don't have the framedata but his rolls actually seem pretty good to me, they go pretty far and seem fast. But yeah, his techs are terrible. It's probably worth using Teleport to try to escape tech chases.

8) I understand they want to differentiate Lucario and Mewtwo, but was taking away the active hitbox to his charging Shadow Ball really necessary? Arbitrarily nerfing a character.

That was kinda dumb, but whatever. The way that he uses Shadow Ball in neutral doesn't really depend on it.


Incidentally, I'm starting to think Mewtwo may be B tier (or whatever we're calling the tier that's one below Yoshi and Falcon), rather than the C tier I predicted initially. Comparing his strengths against most of the people in C tier he's just got a lot going for him.