Character Competitive Impressions

[deepseadiva]

People think Mac's recovery is exploitable?

*groundbreaking.gif*

 

[A2ZOMG]

Right, put Olimar side-by-side with Ivysaur and it becomes pretty obvious.

The worst recovery in Brawl is Bowser's. Literally cannot ever get back to the stage after he incurs 100%.

 

[ShiekShallKill]

I guess I wasn't specific enough. SHEILD Grab and ledge guard him to death.

 

[Nu~]

I guess I wasn't specific enough. SHEILD Grab and ledge guard him to death.

After you get blown back 40 ft by the crazy knockback on your shield?

 

[ShiekShallKill]

After you get blown back 40 ft by the crazy knockback on your shield?
View attachment 39289

Little mac can't break a shield that easily.

Nor knock you back enough to punish with a grab & edgeguard

 

[NairWizard]

I guess I wasn't specific enough. SHEILD Grab and ledge guard him to death.

This only works if he dash attacks your shield, which only super scrubby Little Macs do (like all the ones on For Glory, pretty much), OR if he f-smashes your shield and you have good dash speed (it's a tiny, tiny window before he can jab, since his jab is frame 1). Basically, you won't be shieldgrabbing Little Mac.

 

[Nu~]

Nor knock you back enough to punish with a grab & edgeguard

Every smash attack does. A little Mac that spaces well shouldn't be getting shield grabbed easily.

 

[meleebrawler]

I guess I wasn't specific enough. SHEILD Grab and ledge guard him to death.

Pretty sure that only really works against YOLO dash attacking Macs.
Against regular grabs he can just space himself and use strong pushback like the others
said, and against tether grabs he can bait and punish. Or heaven forbid he just run up and grab
you since you're content to just sit there in your shield.

 

[Vincent21]

This only works if he dash attacks your shield, which only super scrubby Little Macs do (like all the ones on For Glory, pretty much), OR if he f-smashes your shield and you have good dash speed (it's a tiny, tiny window before he can jab, since his jab is frame 1). Basically, you won't be shieldgrabbing Little Mac.

Thank you.

I never get why people insist he's not safe on shield against grabs. He has a frame one jab he can just hold into after smashing on shield and if you even THINK about grabbing him you become a part of said jab. It completely shuts that train of thought down from beginning to end. And hey if you actually ledge camp for this option typically it's as simple as running upsmash on a read shield. You slide off stage and ledge grab and suddenly a free shield grab turns into you have to jump at, roll past, or get up attack Little Mac.

Have fun with all of that.

Actually let's just talk about his jabs more because that shuts a lot of arguments against him down, honestly. I mean his jabs legitimately make spot-dodging bad for the majority of the cast. If you've either been conditioned or read to be going for a spot-dodge, LM holds A. If you go for a Falcon, Shiek, Diddy, or other good dash grab, LM holds A. If you do Diddy SideB, LM holds A.

This character can shut off so many avenues of play by holding one button it's absurd. The only person you really can't, in some shape or form, hold A on to reduce their options is.... another Little Mac. UpB will get out of it for free. All everyone else really does is try to outpoke it (considering he's got ftilt and armored smashes in pocket that's a dangerous game) or to jump in on him (an even more dangerous game).

Like with just that and ftilt he already has a strong ground game, but given his speed and armored smashes getting him off the stage is a living nightmare. If you do not shut this character down with your character pick, or your stage selection, you're done.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Grabbing little mac is not difficult, just knock him into the air and don't let him land. His landing options are so limited, you can usually grab by predicting which he does and punish accordingly.

Any good player using any character will be hard to beat, little mac is no exception, but his flaws are so hard to overcome that I doubt he'll ever see major tournament usage

 

[Morbi]

Thank you.

I never get why people insist he's not safe on shield against grabs. He has a frame one jab he can just hold into after smashing on shield and if you even THINK about grabbing him you become a part of said jab. It completely shuts that train of thought down from beginning to end. And hey if you actually ledge camp for this option typically it's as simple as running upsmash on a read shield. You slide off stage and ledge grab and suddenly a free shield grab turns into you have to jump at, roll past, or get up attack Little Mac.

Have fun with all of that.

I agree, I was just training against a Little Mac and every time I would attempt to initiate a shield grab, I was obviously jabbed. It does not really seem like a viable option against Mac.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Grabbing little mac is not difficult, just knock him into the air and don't let him land. His landing options are so limited, you can usually grab by predicting which he does and punish accordingly.

Any good player using any character will be hard to beat, little mac is no exception, but his flaws are so hard to overcome that I doubt he'll ever see major tournament usage

too late it already happened.

 

[ShiekShallKill]

What idiots you guys are. Just admit that Little mac isn't good at all. It's oblivious. He can't recover at all, and his air game sucks. The only thing he can rely on is his ground game, and he obliviously is slowed down by projectiles.

 

[Emblem Lord]

LM doesnt give a crap about projectiles. Like...no char with half decent running speed does. He runs very low to the ground and Joly Haymaker has invincibility frames.

Stop spouting nonsense.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

I agree, I was just training against a Little Mac and every time I would attempt to initiate a shield grab, I was obviously jabbed. It does not really seem like a viable option against Mac.

Don't just shield the grab, assume he's going to jab and shield that too. If they're good, they'll follow up with shield pressure, but a good spot dodge and they're wide open (that's assuming they don't get stuck in jab combo, in which case, you can easily punish that)

 

[Timbers]

What idiots you guys are. Just admit that Little mac isn't good at all. It's oblivious. He can't recover at all, and his air game sucks. The only thing he can rely on is his ground game, and he obliviously is slowed down by projectiles.

lol

tempted to use as signature

 

[meleebrawler]

What idiots you guys are. Just admit that Little mac isn't good at all. It's oblivious. He can't recover at all, and his air game sucks. The only thing he can rely on is his ground game, and he obliviously is slowed down by projectiles.

Nobody said he was GOOD, we just said he's not easily shut down by the shieldgrabbing tactic you described
in the right hands.

 

[Vincent21]

What idiots you guys are. Just admit that Little mac isn't good at all. It's oblivious. He can't recover at all, and his air game sucks. The only thing he can rely on is his ground game, and he obliviously is slowed down by projectiles.

For voluntarily coming into a discussion thread, you don't seem keen on discussing anything. You seem more intent on making assertions and having them accepted.

Don't just shield the grab, assume he's going to jab and shield that too. If they're good, they'll follow up with shield pressure, but a good spot dodge and they're wide open (that's assuming they don't get stuck in jab combo, in which case, you can easily punish that)

"Don't just shield *then* grab?" I'm not trying to be a jerk about spelling or anything I'm just literally clarifying so that my response makes sense in case I'm making a mistake.

But I mean if they jab your shield they make pressure already. Jabs, especially the end punch, has reasonable shield kickback, And they've escaped the scenario and returned the game to neutral. If they follow your slide, and do something like ftilt, and you spotdodge, that puts you back into the "jabs prevent my punish" scenario you started in.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

LM doesnt give a crap about projectiles. Like...no char with half decent running speed does. He runs very low to the ground and Joly Haymaker has invincibility frames.

Stop spouting nonsense.

Needles and aura sphere both come out fast enough to ruin his day just fine in my experience

They also hit him on the back roll, which he seems to depend on a bit too much

Edit: can we all agree to ignore shiekshallkill and move on?

 

[ShiekShallKill]

Lol. I was kidding the whole time xD, but anyways. LOOOOL

 

[Vincent21]

Aura Sphere, I dunno, but needles are definitely a LM problem, admittedly speaking. Then again, they're good enough to be a problem for the majority of ground games available to the cast.

 

[NairWizard]

I do believe that Little Mac is bottom 5 from a consistency standpoint. If a tier list is constructed with viability of solo maining to win a national as a metric, then Little Mac may just be the worst character in the game. I'd rather take solo Swordfighter, honestly. Mac has stages and character combinations where he might as well not exist. Maybe Zelda is another one that I wouldn't solo main, because her matchups are truly obnoxious in some respects.

Little Mac is quite polarizing: there are matchups in which LM does fine in and where he wins, but there are some in which he just gets obliterated (Meta Knight, Sheik, Pikachu for instance: these are quite hilariously atrocious for him, though he can work some magic on Pikachu sometimes).

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Aura Sphere, I dunno, but needles are definitely a LM problem, admittedly speaking. Then again, they're good enough to be a problem for the majority of ground games available to the cast.

Aura sphere throws a wrench in just about every ground based character's game plan, and Mac has no air game to circumvent it

Little mac is fast enough to get in on a force palm, but charging up an aura sphere forces the little mac to play more conservatively, which hurts his overall effectiveness tremendously

 

[deepseadiva]

Lol. I was kidding the whole time xD, but anyways. LOOOOL

I do believe that Little Mac is bottom 5 from a consistency standpoint. If a tier list is constructed with viability of solo maining to win a national as a metric, then Little Mac may just be the worst character in the game.

Where did Ness in Brawl end up on the last tier list? Another "pretty good but dies to counterpicking" character. That's a mid tier.

 

[ShiekShallKill]

I do believe that Little Mac is bottom 5 from a consistency standpoint. If a tier list is constructed with viability of solo maining to win a national as a metric, then Little Mac may just be the worst character in the game. I'd rather take solo Swordfighter, honestly. Mac has stages and character combinations where he might as well not exist. Maybe Zelda is another one that I wouldn't solo main, because her matchups are truly obnoxious in some respects.

Little Mac is quite polarizing: there are matchups in which LM does fine in and where he wins, but there are some in which he just gets obliterated (Meta Knight, Sheik, Pikachu for instance: these are quite hilariously atrocious for him, though he can work some magic on Pikachu sometimes).

Good point, and I don't think Little Mac will be the absolute worst, but definatly bottom 5. Maybe Smash 4 will be more balanced if Sakurai and the game designers make Diddy Kongs D-Throw into DK's.

 

[Djent]

Do you folks think solo viability should be a major ranking criterion all the way down the tier list?

Because I don't think so. It's obviously important in determining the mid- and high-tier placements. But I also think that among the lower tiers, having a few good high- and top-tier MUs mixed with unwinnable ones is ultimately more valuable than having homogenously bad (but still theoretically winnable) MUs across the board.

Put another way, no one has any reason to even play a character with a bunch of 3:7s. But a character with some 1:9s and some 6:4s? That's someone you'd be justified in practicing.

This is why I don't think Little Mac can ever be the "worst" character on a reasonable metric.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I still don't really get the theory of approaching Little Mac as a baseline strat in the match-up for any character. Use your personal stage ban on Final Destination; now you guarantee platforms in the MU. Camp them in such a way that Little Mac's only way to hit you is to jump at you; even on Smashville it's incredibly powerful to just adamantly stay on that platform (unless he manages to join you despite your best efforts, in which case you drop off, he drops off, and you immediately jump back on). All five of his aerials are bad, his air speed is bad, and while his uppercut is pretty good he's going to get forced off-stage if he whiffs it which is an awful risk-reward proposition. I mean, if Little Mac can land the first hit and then for the entire match never be behind I suppose he doesn't have to deal with this, but that's not practical. All of his possible winning strats on stages with platforms are predicated on the LM player just being way, way better than his opponent. I think his totally awful ability to deal with Brawl-esque aerial run-away is actually the main reason he's bad; the recovery forces him to be super careful, but the inability to jump at people is just too limiting. I actually get kinda annoyed whenever it comes time to fight Little Mac because, yeah, the match-up is totally free, but it's just so boring...

Ness in Brawl was good overall since he could play most match-ups well but got counterpicked hard in a few devastating pairings. Little Mac in 4 is bad overall since most opposing character-stage combos hard counter him but he can counterpick situations where he does okay. I imagine LM's future is entirely limited to being a pocket character; your opponent didn't ban FD and further is using a character LM does okay against so you can surprise them with Little Mac. He can't win anything by himself since he'll inevitably run into some horrible situation if ever used on game one or on an opponent's cp... I think in terms of tier position this has to hash out to something in bottom 5; he's not quite useless, but this character is just so bad and is so much more apt to make the user lose than win.

 

[Vincent21]

Aura sphere throws a wrench in just about every ground based character's game plan, and Mac has no air game to circumvent it

Little mac is fast enough to get in on a force palm, but charging up an aura sphere forces the little mac to play more conservatively, which hurts his overall effectiveness tremendously

I actually like this because it involves another misconception.

Conservative play does not hurt the character. If you're charging a Aura beam there is nothing saying I have to YOLORUNDASHPUNCH before you let it go. There is no immediacy. I can literally, LITERALLY, just walk at you. If you roll or spot-dodge cancel your charge, I punish or, if I'm too far, simply gain ground. If you shoot an uncharged aura sphere, I powershield or even ftilt it. If you keep charging, I keep walking. Not dashing, or running, I just walk at you. And if I get close enough I can just ftilt you. Charging an aura sphere while I'm on stage does nothing but force YOU to guess at ME. Which option will I least expect from you and react with the least finesse to?

In what world do I HAVE to be aggressive? I can approach the question that a charge projectile poses to me in terms of decision trees at any pace I want until YOU do something with it. Little Mac can approach a lot of problems that way.

NEEDLEs on the other hand are not only a pain to react to, constant, and painful, but just throwing one can be done on reaction to a dash and will ruin an approach. And if I don't approach, or try walking at them, the speed and plethora of offensive options or the consistency at which more needles will come with due speed will punish me for it. It all spells suck for me.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

I actually like this because it involves another misconception.

Conservative play does not hurt the character. If you're charging a Aura beam there is nothing saying I have to YOLORUNDASHPUNCH before you let it go. There is no immediacy. I can literally, LITERALLY, just walk at you. If you roll or spot-dodge cancel your charge, I punish or, if I'm too far, simply gain ground. If you shoot an uncharged aura sphere, I powershield or even ftilt it. If you keep charging, I keep walking. Not dashing, or running, I just walk at you. And if I get close enough I can just ftilt you. Charging an aura sphere while I'm on stage does nothing but force YOU to guess at ME. Which option will I least expect from you and react with the least finesse to?

In what world do I HAVE to be aggressive? I can approach the question that a charge projectile poses to me in terms of decision trees at any pace I want until YOU do something with it. Little Mac can approach a lot of problems that way.

NEEDLEs on the other hand are not only a pain to react to, constant, and painful, but just throwing one can be done on reaction to a dash and will ruin an approach. And if I don't approach, or try walking at them, the speed and plethora of offensive options or the consistency at which more needles will come with due speed will punish me for it. It all spells suck for me.

Conservative play hurts little mac because his biggest pro is his speed and low lag attacks. If you're too afraid of getting hit off stage by a projectile, you can't really use either, so your only real options are dash into shield, walk, or hope to catch them off guard. A charged aura sphere kills Mac's neutral game for that reason.

Do you folks think solo viability should be a major ranking criterion all the way down the tier list?

Because I don't think so. It's obviously important in determining the mid- and high-tier placements. But I also think that among the lower tiers, having a few good high- and top-tier MUs mixed with unwinnable ones is ultimately more valuable than having homogenously bad (but still theoretically winnable) MUs across the board.

Put another way, no one has any reason to even play a character with a bunch of 3:7s. But a character with some 1:9s and some 6:4s? That's someone you'd be justified in practicing.

This is why I don't think Little Mac can ever be the "worst" character on a reasonable metric.

To an extent, yes. If a character is easily counter picked, you'll never be able to use it more than 1 fight. For this reason, Little Mac can never be more than a niche counter pick character because he auto loses to some of the most common characters (at a high level, I'm not trying to say anything about having fun with friends).

I'd say that's pretty much universally agreed upon, so does anyone else have someone they'd like to discuss? As long as it's not drop kick Ganondorf again, I'd like to see what people are currently thinking.

 

[Thinkaman]

Little Mac safe-on-shield tier list:

D-tilt: Basically always. Best choice. Has frame advantage on all defensive options but Counters, which it outspeeds.
F-tilt: Usually, good spacing can ensure it. Also has frame advantage on rolls.
F-smash: Only spaced + against slow dashes.
Jab 1-2: Safe mixups, but no guaranteed safety.
Dash attack: No.

To an extent, yes. If a character is easily counter picked, you'll never be able to use it more than 1 fight. For this reason, Little Mac can never be more than a niche counter pick character because he auto loses to some of the most common characters (at a high level, I'm not trying to say anything about having fun with friends).

I don't know of anyone LM completely, absolutely loses to on a character basis besides arguably MK. Pikachu is rough but not hopeless. Shulk and Rosalina are pretty tough too.

Stage + character though, things get a little broader. As discussed LM isn't hurt as badly by stages as people think (just ban Smashville and Duck Hunt if you insist on playing LM into their CP), but it is a very real factor.

I'd say that's pretty much universally agreed upon, so does anyone else have someone they'd like to discuss? As long as it's not drop kick Ganondorf again, I'd like to see what people are currently thinking.

Uh....... Ness matchups?

 

[NairWizard]

Where did Ness in Brawl end up on the last tier list? Another "pretty good but dies to counterpicking" character. That's a mid tier.

Brawl was a different game, with far inferior balance. smash 4's bottom rungs is full of so-called "mid tiers."

Do you folks think solo viability should be a major ranking criterion all the way down the tier list?

Because I don't think so. It's obviously important in determining the mid- and high-tier placements. But I also think that among the lower tiers, having a few good high- and top-tier MUs mixed with unwinnable ones is ultimately more valuable than having homogenously bad (but still theoretically winnable) MUs across the board.

Put another way, no one has any reason to even play a character with a bunch of 3:7s. But a character with some 1:9s and some 6:4s? That's someone you'd be justified in practicing.

This is why I don't think Little Mac can ever be the "worst" character on a reasonable metric.

I think that viability of use as a secondary should be a separate tier list, which should also take difficulty of use into account.

It's confusing when you use a single tier list to indicate both solo main viability and secondary viability.

Suppose that I am new to competitive smash. I go to a random tier list and see Little Mac above Ganondorf. I conclude that Little Mac is a better choice for a main, and I invest time into Little Mac, only to discover that he has some glaring matchup flaws that will get me wrecked in a real tournament. I start losing to Sheiks 75:25, Pikachus 65:35, and Meta Knights like 80:20 or something. Frustrated, I switch to Ganondorf. Now my worst matchup is 60:40, odds which I can overcome if I'm better than my opponent. I win my next tournament. Huh? What happened?

Obviously, in a real situation you'll do more research than this before picking your main, but what is the point of a tier list if not at-a-glance summary of relative character strength based on a defining metric? If you start throwing other conditions and other metrics together into one pot, you get confusing results that need asterisks.

Like

Ganondorf
Little Mac*
Robin

*only useful as a counterpick against ground-based characters

That's kinda weird, imo.

 

[FlareHabanero]

My problem with how players use Little Mac is that they always try and go for the dash. Despite having a fast dash, running around the place is possible the worst thing to do since Little Mac lacks options to take advantage of it. Yes his dash attack can be spammed, but a savvy player can see that coming a mile away.

 

[|RK|]

What idiots you guys are. Just admit that Little mac isn't good at all. It's oblivious. He can't recover at all, and his air game sucks. The only thing he can rely on is his ground game, and he obliviously is slowed down by projectiles.

"It's oblivious"? Man this has to be one of the most meta posts ever.

 

[Djent]

I think that viability of use as a secondary should be a separate tier list, which should also take difficulty of use into account.

It's confusing when you use a single tier list to indicate both solo main viability and secondary viability.

[Other stuff removed due to space constraints]

Perhaps, although I think both tap into overlapping (but still somewhat distinct) aspects of character value.

Then again, like you alluded, overall character value is also a function of required effort, so on second thought it might be pointless to try and capture it on a single list.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait, tier lists have an actual function, and aren't just notes left on the wall of the kool kids klubhouse?

News to me.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The biggest indication to respect a mac player. They don't dash once the battle starts.



They walk. And oh boy is it intimidating.

 

[Thinkaman]

The biggest indication to respect a mac player. They don't dash once the battle starts.

I foxtrot a bit to make them think I'm bad! Does that count?

Edit: Then I spend the remaining 2 minutes of the match walking slowly and spamming f-tilt -> jab.

 

[HeroMystic]

Does Mac ever need a reason to dash outside of dash-grabs and setting up an uppercut?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I foxtrot a bit to make them think I'm bad! Does that count?

Edit: Then I spend the remaining 2 minutes of the match walking slowly and spamming f-tilt -> jab.

This is mac's AT's right here.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Does Mac ever need a reason to dash outside of dash-grabs and setting up an uppercut?

Footsies I guess, mainly to toy with expectations.

Aside from that, I don't know. Chalking up another victory for your opponent on For Glory?