Character Competitive Impressions

[PKBeam]

if you doubled her Dtilt damage it'd probably start killing around the 80 or 90 mark on grounded opponents... pretty hard to miss.

 

[Thinkaman]

if you doubled her Dtilt damage it'd start killing well before 100...

Well, at the current knockback values, yes. 100 growth is asinine for a 17% hitbox.

This thought experiment is intentionally ridiculous, but the point is that even when it does 17% (which is absurd, more than her uncharged fsmash), Palutena d-tilt is still a crappy hitbox frame 14 move. That's f-smash tier speed, without the benefit of being able to hold a charge to punish various things.



Anyway, while we are playing this game, ponder solutions to the only problem that really needs fixing: Zelda's 1v1 game.

• Phantom Slash charge can now be stored. (a la DK, Lucario, or Robin)
• Phantom Slash charge can now be merely shield canceled. (a la Deep Breathing)
• Phantom Slash release can be b-reversed.
• Phantom Slash has liberally less endlag.

How good would each of these be? The first is clearly the most powerful, and the last depends heavily on the numerical specifics. But I am highly convinced that this (Phantom) is the only simple path to fixing what might be the only truly significant balance problem in the game. Phantom is a legitimately great move if not for the nagging detail that it is ruined by just getting out of the way, which can be done on reaction. (It's safe on block and beats dodges when charged!)

 

[deepseadiva]

I do wonder where her place in the game lies though. She does offer a unique package, bits of useful things from other characters come together in Palutena making her a different choice. Who else offers a reflector, a warp, fast run speed, and throw combos all together?

Her biggest differentiator is her invincible shield attacks, and the main reason I see people choosing her over others.

 

[Ffamran]

I think it's also important to highlight her run speed and her default Warp making her very solidly mobile, both making her capable of constantly getting inside, and teleporting out of nasty spots.

And her invisible dodges.

Don't Rosalina and Greninja have invisible dodges too? I know Rosalina does, but I don't remember despite playing Greninja a bit since I kind of smile whenever I hear the dodge sound effect which sounds like a clap.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lol how does Bowser actually land in this game with air dodge lag as it is.

 

[deepseadiva]

Don't Rosalina and Greninja have invisible dodges too? I know Rosalina does, but I don't remember despite playing Greninja a bit since I kind of smile whenever I hear the dodge sound effect which sounds like a clap.

Speaking as a fake Greninja main: I have no idea. I do really like these kind of attributes on dodges though. They're very confusing in the same manner Peach's float is, unpredictable and harder to track, which is a very tangible and abusable benefit.

 

[Thinkaman]

Greninja disappears for a couple of frames in the very middle of his roll (and makes the sound), but this does not have the same benefit as the fully invisible Palutena or Rosalina rolls.

 

[Locke 06]

Lol how does Bowser actually land in this game with air dodge lag as it is.

Firebreath... kind of? At least his DAir and Bowser Bomb are poor man's wizard feet. With customs I assume with dash claw, but that's the only custom I've seen in action and don't know.

The real question is how does Dedede land? Jet Hammer Dash? Fast fall NAir? As Mega Man, Dedede straight up loses to air shooter. There's no way down except to air dodge through it (grab>uthrow or utilt), or go to the ledge.

Without customs, it feels like one of the most lobsided matchups in the game. Dedede does a lot of damage in advantage, but how he ever resets to neutral is beyond me (frame 7 NAir, f6 dtilt, f7 grab are his fastest moves and best OOS options). Does anyone have a worse disadvantageous state than the penguin?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Firebreath... kind of? At least his DAir and Bowser Bomb are poor man's wizard feet.

DDD has Multijumps to at least play the spacing game, possibly bait around.

If you have a Disjoint, you don't even respect Bowser's D-air, Bowser bomb or Firebreath.

 

[Ffamran]

Lol how does Bowser actually land in this game with air dodge lag as it is.

He doesn't; he just falls through the stage because of his weight.

At least he has natural super armor at low percents if I was informed correctly. This basically allows Bowser to tank through Rapid Jabs.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

DDD has Multijumps to at least play the spacing game, possibly bait around.

If you have a Disjoint, you don't even respect Bowser's D-air, Bowser bomb or Firebreath.

effectivly bowsers landing options are limited. always di away from the oponent and towward a ledge, reatreating fair can work (its not fantasic but it can get the job done.) and i believe bowsers shell can take attacks when in dair animation if that means anything.

(also customs dash slash. bowser has np landing anymore.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'd like to point out that only in certain MUs is D3's disadvantaged state godawful. Megaman is one of those MUs. Rest of the time, it's just bad.

Lol @ Bowser Bomb and Bowser's Dair being "formidable" tools returning to the stage (D3's uair beats 'em both clean, same with any other disjointed attack). As Chrono pointed out, multi-jumps can get him out of a jam and lead to good situations. Though it damns him sometimes, his fall speed helps out too.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TriTails]

How Bowser lands: Move toward a ledge, then Bowser Bomb over it.

Unless I am missing something.

And also, @ Ffamran , Bowser's armor is Heavy Armor, and only works if he is grounded.

And how D3 lands... not sure how. FF N-air?

Some D3s tried to SD3J to thestage, only to get an FJP in the gut at the end lag.

Seriously D3s, NEVER try to recover high against a Luigi. You'll just get Shoryuken'd.

 

[NairWizard]

Dedede's atrocious airspeed (it is literally about half that of Jigglypuff, which is hilariously awful, beyond words) is free Thunders in the Pikachu MU. Airdodged one Thunder? Have another.

But his neutral and advantage are pretty scary at times.

I always face Dedede and think, man, if this character had good airspeed (like say DK), he would be an easy Top Tier.

 

[thehard]

Shockwave matches are up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdXgFEJBXq0

 

[ChronoPenguin]

effectivly bowsers landing options are limited. always di away from the oponent and towward a ledge, reatreating fair can work (its not fantasic but it can get the job done.) and i believe bowsers shell can take attacks when in dair animation if that means anything.

(also customs dash slash. bowser has np landing anymore.

I can think of more then 10 characters who don't even care if you head towards the ledge and Bowser bomb.
If im not mistaken as Bowser MU experience grows, Bowsers going to become a duck against a handful of characters that the other fattiest wont since they conjure more respect in the air.

 

[TriTails]

If im not mistaken as Bowser MU experience grows, Bowsers going to become a duck against a handful of characters that the other fattiest wont since they conjure more respect in the air.

Um... You mean, a B-air that does 19% doesn't need respect?

The only fatties I think that has the least respect in the air... maybe D3?

I mean, even Luigi outspeeds him.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And how D3 lands... not sure how. FF N-air?

Maybe if the D3 was asking to get punished on whiff or on shield, sure.

Some D3s try to SD3J to the stage, only to get an FJP in the gut at the end lag.

...which is why smart D3's go for the sweetspotted Up-B on the edge.

Seriously D3s, NEVER try to recover high against a Luigi. You'll just get Shoryuken'd.

See above.

Um... You mean, a B-air that does 19% doesn't need respect?

The only fatties I think that has the least respect in the air... maybe D3?

I mean, even Luigi outspeeds him.

D3's aerials actually command respect when he's throwing them out (save dair). They're all extremely meaty with decent-ish startup and a lot of active frames. On all the disjointed ones, that's a pretty good attribute to have.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Um... You mean, a B-air that does 19% doesn't need respect?

Sure except there is more then 10 characters that can straight up whiff punish it without fear due to their disjointed options, with such a great spacing opportunity and the notable lag on it. Other characters who say "go for it, but watch what happens next" like Sheik.

We could respect it, but then there are characters who really don't have to.
If I'm playing Kirby sure I'll respect it, but that's Kirby he has to respect a *lot* of crap.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I can think of more then 10 characters who don't even care if you head towards the ledge and Bowser bomb.
If im not mistaken as Bowser MU experience grows, Bowsers going to become a duck against a handful of characters that the other fattiest wont since they conjure more respect in the air.

i never said anything about bowser bomb.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, at the current knockback values, yes. 100 growth is asinine for a 17% hitbox.

This thought experiment is intentionally ridiculous, but the point is that even when it does 17% (which is absurd, more than her uncharged fsmash), Palutena d-tilt is still a crappy hitbox frame 14 move. That's f-smash tier speed, without the benefit of being able to hold a charge to punish various things.



Anyway, while we are playing this game, ponder solutions to the only problem that really needs fixing: Zelda's 1v1 game.

• Phantom Slash charge can now be stored. (a la DK, Lucario, or Robin)
• Phantom Slash charge can now be merely shield canceled. (a la Deep Breathing)
• Phantom Slash release can be b-reversed.
• Phantom Slash has liberally less endlag.

How good would each of these be? The first is clearly the most powerful, and the last depends heavily on the numerical specifics. But I am highly convinced that this (Phantom) is the only simple path to fixing what might be the only truly significant balance problem in the game. Phantom is a legitimately great move if not for the nagging detail that it is ruined by just getting out of the way, which can be done on reaction. (It's safe on block and beats dodges when charged!)

Buffs to Phantom, QoL fixes to F-smash, and maybe extra shield damage on every version of Dins plus not going into free fall when using Dins. I'd be down for those things.

Also would want more useful Up-B and neutral B customs I guess.

Meanwhile for my main Ganon, the only thing he needs to make a few of his bad matchups a lot less stupid is an actually useful Jab. A faster startup jab with a slightly lingering hitbox would be nice, then I wouldn't complain as much about the move being really laggy and having terrible reward.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Buffs to Phantom, QoL fixes to F-smash, and maybe extra shield damage on every version of Dins plus not going into free fall when using Dins. I'd be down for those things.

Also would want more useful Up-B and neutral B customs I guess.

Meanwhile for my main Ganon, the only thing he needs to make a few of his bad matchups a lot less stupid is an actually useful Jab. A faster startup jab with a slightly lingering hitbox would be nice, then I wouldn't complain about the move being really laggy.

Phantom is an untapped move and personally i feel its a larger part of her game than most people use it to be.
But iv been also saying for months that phantom shoulda held a charge. its almost rediculous that it does not. also din's fire not putting into free fall is nice too.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Phantom isn't terrible as it is now. It does have significant utility in midrange, but mostly I'm agreeing that its a good candidate for buffs of some sort.

 

[thehard]

Is there a list of attacks that do extra shield damage yet?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is there a list of attacks that do extra shield damage yet?

Just check Thinkaman's data dump and look for things in parenthesis next to damage values.

 

[warionumbah2]

I have a friend that plays Meta Knight occasionally and he doesn't like the Palutena matchup even with customs off. Ironically, he really hates it when I take him to Halberd lol.

That's not even his best stage even so he should love it due to how easy it is to kill uptop and Palutina is one of the many characters that have rubbish options in escaping combo's unlike Link,Yoshi,Mario,Luigi,Doc,Fox etc. Don't see how Palutina is a threat in general with customs off.

You did say 'plays Meta Knight occasionally' so there's that.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, if Phantom could hold a charge, it would need significant timing nerfs from the implementation currently. The Phantom spawns frame 1 after release.

I'm liking the idea of b-reverse-on-release more as I think about it. Anything that just means it isn't trivialized (and punished harshly) by rolling or air dodging through Zelda.

 

[thehard]

Just check Thinkaman's data dump and look for things in parenthesis next to damage values.

Thanks, I've seen this before but I wasn't sure how to interpret some of it. And thank you Thinkaman.

 

[Shaya]

Little Mac's ground game~

1. His dash to shield is in the slower caste of the game (15 frames)
2. His only "out of shield" option is his up-b, which at 3 frames is pretty formidable. 9 Frame shield grab at poor range, yucks.
3. His ftilt close hit is somewhat short ranged, and the second hit is at least 12 frames.
4. Did I mention his grab is 9 frames and his dash grab ain't special either?
5. All active hitboxes beat KO punch (bless you wind hitbox ). What's that... HOLD A [multi jabs] on half the cast until he either wastes it or the timer before he can be hit out of it expires and you're good to go? Absurdly useless gimmick? Yes. Could I be misconstruing how bad this is? Possibly, but Sheik and Falcon definitely don't give a ****.
6. Bar rage, Mac's smashes are all unsafe on shield.

 

[Big O]

Little Mac's ground game~

6. Bar rage, Mac's smashes are all unsafe on shield.

I'm pretty sure rage has no effect on shields, unless you are lucario.

 

[Shaya]

I'm pretty sure rage has no effect on shields, unless you are lucario.

All I've heard is that shield push back scales with knockback, which scales with rage.
If this isn't the case, screw whoever stated it as such in the past 3 weeks.

 

[Big O]

All I've heard is that shield push back scales with knockback, which scales with rage.

That was one of the first things I tested regarding rage. You deal the same shield pushback at 0% as you do at any %. Shield pushback only scales with damage as far as I can tell. Maybe one of the random unknown parameters also affects shield push back, but knockback definitely doesn't.

 

[Shaya]

I summon aerobone @ KuroganeHammer

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Shield pushback was entirely based on KB in Brawl, and Smash 4's mechanics are just ported from Brawl basically

It's possible that you're either not keen enough to discern that rage affects the shield knockback, or I guess it could be possible that rage simply doesn't affect shields.

 

[Nobie]

One thing about Dedede trying to get out of the air is that he at least has some choices when it comes to Nair as a mediocre defense against an opponent below him. He can fast-fall then nair, nair then fast-fall, regular-fall nair, or just fast-fall with nothing. This way you can change up your timing a decent amount, and for the pure fast-fall what you're basically doing is a variation of the good ol' empty jump into grab or down tilt or whatever.

 

[etecoon]

Little Mac's ground game~

1. His dash to shield is in the slower caste of the game (15 frames)
2. His only "out of shield" option is his up-b, which at 3 frames is pretty formidable. 9 Frame shield grab at poor range, yucks.

When you outspeed almost every character on the ground and your attacks also straight go through their atttacks, you don't rely on blocking as much as other characters

Same mental block I think that people have with Sheik where they start thinking weird things like that she's better than Diddy. "Too much shield safety" when her hitboxes are easily overpowered and she can't kill so it's not even that bad when you get baited into throwing out a move at the wrong time usually. Mac can get wrecked for throwing out moves at the wrong time, but it just comes down to reads, if people here want to tell me that GANONDORF is viable because he can get a huge reward off a few reads, there's no way that little Mac is bottom tier when he gets similar rewards and has tools to actually make more reads. Tons of things as Ganon where it's like "oh, I knew exactly what was going to happen, but I still couldn't beat the frame advantages/better mobility/omg my grabs are horrible", that doesn't happen with Little Mac unless you're air camping him or something, which is going to be a lot harder in this game(still haven't really seen anyone attempt it even...)

5. All active hitboxes beat KO punch (bless you wind hitbox ). What's that... HOLD A [multi jabs] on half the cast until he either wastes it or the timer before he can be hit out of it expires and you're good to go? Absurdly useless gimmick? Yes. Could I be misconstruing how bad this is? Possibly, but Sheik and Falcon definitely don't give a ****.

Holding A is a good way to eat a smash. Anything you do to avoid the KO punch is punishable if predicted, even if you avoid that the fact that you can be forced to try and avoid dying at absurdly low percents can set up other things. Pretty much ICs for a brief moment except really mobile, one wrong move and you die at nearly any % is useful mentally

 

[Big O]

Shield pushback was entirely based on KB in Brawl, and Smash 4's mechanics are just ported from Brawl basically

It's possible that you're either not keen enough to discern that rage affects the shield knockback, or I guess it could be possible that rage simply doesn't affect shields.

You don't really need to be very keen to see the difference when you test it on someone like Luigi. It should be easy enough for anyone to test it and come to their own conclusion. Probably could also test out low % high kb moves (last hit of some random multi-hit) vs high % low kb moves (Little Mac Fsmash-Down) and see which deals more shield pushback. I wouldn't be surprised if it's changed from Brawl and has nothing to do with KB.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I will say that Mac is kind of a monster in teams. Like, holy ****. The ability to just throw around big, 20-damage super armor smashes in the chaos of 4 players, plus the ridiculous team combo grab -> ko punch setups can get dumb fast. Easily my favorite character to use in teams.

 

[meleebrawler]

So Palutena has a bunch of weird moves that have weird properties. She is basically a terrible character with a layer of useful gimmicks on all of her moves.

Jab has absurd jab cancels (grab can usually only be avoided by double jump, f3 aerials, or landing hitboxes) and a great finishing hitbox, but is one of the slowest jabs in the game.

Dash Attack beats everything in the game and does nontrivial extra shield damage.

F-tilt is genrously disjointed, beats spot-dodges, and does extremely disproportionate shield damage--but is a frame 17 move that does 6%...

U-tilt also beats spot dodges and does lots of shield damage, but has situational coverage and low reward as well.

D-tilt is, as far as I can tell, total trash and one of the worse moves in the game, with literally no point.

F-smash is powerful, can cover ledges with the lower wing-tip, and has a potent windbox that provides safety. D-smash is similar.

U-smash obviously has the beam, which is great for punish people out of d-throw, ledge jumps, or platforms.

Nair is pretty bad air-to-air, but like the tilts beats spot-dodges and shields very hard. It's a fantastic platform harassment tool, and a decent speed/reward ration for followup. Beats airdodges, if you can follow them.

Fair auto-cancels on frame 24 and has (iirc) only 9 frames of landing lag. That is Diddy/Sheik/Luigi level numbers. Used properly, it's safe on shields. (And it does extra shield damage) Yet it's a frame 9 move that does only 7%.

Bair also does extra shield damage, and also has the same unique property as dash attack that makes it beat everything. It also SH ACs, though nowhere near as generously as fair. This is Palutena's only move that has simply good numbers all around--a great move with the gimmick as a bonus.

Uair is complete cheese, it outprioritizes almost everything and kills off the top really well. Since you can do it while jumping, it carries people up with you before the final hit, so they die sooner. The lower the ceiling, the more pronounced this benefit is. (Hello, Halberd!) Uair allows interrupts before AC.

Dair is an awful move in almost every way. It only does 9%, it can't spike grounded opponents, the knockback is very mediocre, and it doesn't even SH AC. And yet... at frame 10 it's one of the absolute fastest spikes in the game--one of the one ones that exceeds human reaction time.

Her grabs aren't bad, her throws do respectable damage + okay knockback, and her d-throw followup potential is close to Diddy's.


To be honest, I wouldn't touch Palutena much, given the option. Most of what I would change on her is quality-of-life changes I would make on almost everyone applicable:

• Usmash duration increased a couple of frames to match the graphic.
• Uair AC time moved up very slightly, to allow FH AC. (I'd make almost every aerial in the game FH AC.)
• Uair IASA time moved up to AC time. (I'd do this on every applicable aerial in the game except Shulks'.)
• Dair AC time moved up significantly, to allow SH AC. (I'd do this on most the dair spikes in the game, starting with Ganon.)
• Allow Up-smash out of Super Speed without requiring a jump-cancel. (I'd also do this to shields, like it was in Brawl.)
• While Super Speed is on cooldown, side-b inputs are registered as neutral-b instead of nothing. (This makes it very simple to wavebounce AR or EF out of Super Speed.)

You could probably increment random damage values on Palutena, or any random character, without hurting the game. But I'm not convinced it is necessary, and would want to see what the impact of these (beneficial) quality-of-life changes would be first.

Um... Dtilt is probably her best tilt overall. Sure it's not that strong or really leads to anything
except edge-guarding, but it recovers quick enough to make it a good footsie tool (and it lasts just
long enough to beat rolls and spotdodges with good timing). Not to mention that if you manage to clank
something with it, you can actually get a punish out of it, unlike the others which are too slow.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's changed from Brawl and has nothing to do with KB.

This is not a good assumption considering that pretty much every formula has been ported from Brawl.