Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

ZeRo dont want customs cuz he don't got any unlocked and want's to eat everyones souls at evo without a sweat too.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I don't have any customs unlocked cause up until now I didn't see the point. Which characters are significantly improved with customs. Does anyone become potentially a high tier character that currently isn't??

 

[Conda]

For Glory needs to allow Custom Moves imo, or else the custom metagame will definitely progress slower. Like it or not, that's how most people get their most regular gameplay in, and they get to experience the widest possible variety of characters and playstyles there.
Not allowing customs moves there is a big deal to those outside of the playerbase who sticks to "With Friends" competitive play, which is a mode that for all of it's amazing benefits still limits the variety of characters and playstyles you can gain experience playing against.

Same with how the multi-stage meta is growing slower than the 'mostly-flat-stage' meta - people love those mainly flat stages like FD and SVille. People feel most comfortable on SVille - it feels like an omega, but you get a free platform without changing the stage too much and making it Battlefield-esque (eeeww uncomfortable).

If For Glory gets a customs-on version, I'd be happy -- the majority of players would be able to play in something at least somewhat resembles the competitive metagame, and they can gain experience against the characters with their full moveset options. That's my main point.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't have any customs unlocked cause up until now I didn't see the point. Which characters are significantly improved with customs. Does anyone become potentially a high tier character that currently isn't??

Really almost everybody who's considered low tier gets better, and top tier reamin uneffected really since there customs are either same in usefullness or worse. But regardless just get the customs for the character you using right now to cheak em out. you really don't have to unlock all of them if you don't want to.

 

[HeroMystic]

As a game evolves, I like seeing deep matchup knowledge matter. We've seen Fox vs. Marth and Fox vs. Sheik in Melee tons of times, but the advancements made by each side between tournaments make it more and more interesting every time I see it. In a cast with 12 different characters, you get repeated matchups a lot, and top players learning and relearning matchups at every major. In a cast with 50 characters with equal player distribution, the depth of knowledge (while still important) is replaced at least somewhat by breadth of knowledge.

Thinkaman has said something like this before, but as a computer science/math guy, I'll put it in these terms as I think of it in the same way: in a bound complexity space, breadth is inversely proportional to depth.

Good thing I'm a Computer Science major.

Essentially what you're saying is, the more characters that are viable, the less "deep" the game becomes because more options are available to the player. If one character doesn't work, they're able to switch to another character, and since they're not forced to pick from a limited pool of characters, depth is stifled because so many options are available to tackle a situation.

If what I'm saying is correct, I only find that to be half-true. While it's true that "more options = less meaning within those options", the quantity of how much depth is loss in respect to how many options are available can't really be determined. The balance between breadth and depth can still be pretty solid after the fact.

I don't have any customs unlocked cause up until now I didn't see the point. Which characters are significantly improved with customs. Does anyone become potentially a high tier character that currently isn't??

Palutena, Ike, and somewhat DK are the big ones, since they become legitimate threats to everyone in the cast. Everyone else pretty much closes the gap in tiers because they have better specials than their defaults.

 

[meleebrawler]

For Glory needs to allow Custom Moves imo, or else the custom metagame will definitely progress slower. Same with how the multi-stage meta is growing slower than the 'mostly-flat-stage' meta - people love those mainly flat stages like FD and SVille. You can play SVille and you get a free platform but it still feels close to being like For Glory's omegas.

If For Glory gets a customs-on version, I'd be happy -- the majority of players would be able to play in something at least somewhat resembling the competitive metagame. That's my main point.

It's one thing to only know what character your opponent is using when the match starts; with customs,
now you have to wonder what customs he has until he decides to use them. Almost every single time.

 

[Terotrous]

Thinkaman has said something like this before, but as a computer science/math guy, I'll put it in these terms as I think of it in the same way: in a bound complexity space, breadth is inversely proportional to depth.

That's only true if the complexity is bound, though, and there's currently no evidence to suggest that it is.


Also, consider Street Fighter 4, which has about as many characters as Smash4, and almost all of them are viable. No one accuses that game of not being competitive and having a vibrant metagame.


That's not to say I'm 100% totally onboard with customs, but I support everyone being viable.

 

[Judo777]

Good thing I'm a Computer Science major.

Essentially what you're saying is, the more characters that are viable, the less "deep" the game becomes because more options are available to the player. If one character doesn't work, they're able to switch to another character, and since they're not forced to pick from a limited pool of characters, depth is stifled because so many options are available to tackle a situation.

If what I'm saying is correct, I only find that to be half-true. While it's true that "more options = less meaning within those options", the quantity of how much depth is less in respect to how many options are available can't really be determined. The balance between breadth and depth can still be pretty solid after the fact.



Palutena, Ike, and somewhat DK are the big ones, since they become legitimate threats to everyone in the cast. Everyone else pretty much closes the gap in tiers because they have better specials than their defaults.

I am sort of just quoting the post you were quoting, but I disagree with his point by a decent amount. Having played this game competitively for a decent amount of time, I have seen plenty of people who used that same philosophy (where they knew t or not) of "why learn to deal with the problem, when they can just avoid it by taking another route." At high levels of play this ultimately rarely works. Because you HAVE to have that depth to win against someone who knows what they are doing. I know plenty of players who had a lot of potential in the game, but instead of learning the tough MU's and dealing with them, instead resorted to counter picking, which ultimately resulted in losses because eventually they will meet a player that has had to deal with that and just knows the solution.

Best example was in Brawl when people would give up on learning a MU (because its tough) and trying to counter pick a character only to lose anyway because they don't know the MU near as well as the character main. As a sheik player in Brawl, countless people would pick Pikachu, or IC's (btw considerably difficult MU's for Sheik, much worse than probably exist in smash 4 with a few exceptions) and.......I seriously don't believe I ever lost to a single person that ever cped those characters against me, because they didn't know a fraction of what I knew in those MU's. People that played MU's that were even or only slightly in their favor would sometimes go MK against me (as if I don't know that MU) and lose all the time.

There are even a few famous examples of people picking EXTREMELY BAD MU's for other players and still losing for it (Mike Haze against Ook, and that MU is almost freaking unwinnable for DK).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that CPing characters doesn't work/won't work, because everyone makes mistakes and some MU's are really bad, but relying on work arounds and short-cuts to getting you wins will never allow you to become a high level player.

So I guess what I'm saying is, customs won't deprive the game of any depth, because without players having that depth they won't win anyway.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't have any customs unlocked cause up until now I didn't see the point. Which characters are significantly improved with customs. Does anyone become potentially a high tier character that currently isn't??

I've been playing predominantly with customs for the last 4 months. Here is my current opinions on character tiers with and without customs:
Naturally, any tier list is highly opinionated, so anyone will find things they disagree with. I'm only providing it all as a context with which to answer your question.

1v1, no customs, ordered within each level:








1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:







Moves up 4 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 2 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 1 tier relative to a no-customs list:

 

[Terotrous]

I was going to complain about you copypasta-ing the same list from last week, but I note your list has actually changed slightly, and generally in the ways that I was suggesting. I pretty much agree with it all now except for very minor points of ordering within tiers.


Wait no hold on what is Gunner doing in the third-lowest tier? That totally needs to be fixed. Her customs are crazy! Gunner below Samus is legit insane, Gunner is Samus but fixed.

 

[RWB]

I don't have any customs unlocked cause up until now I didn't see the point. Which characters are significantly improved with customs. Does anyone become potentially a high tier character that currently isn't??

Depends on what rules are on the Miis, because 1111 Brawler is probably low tier, and 2222(or even better, 2122) Brawler is a Top 10 candidate(almost certainly a top 15 member).

I can't say that much for others, but Meteor Bomb Link is a serious threat who I could see take the step up as well.

 

[Thinkaman]

I was going to complain about you copypasta-ing the same list from last week, but I note your list has actually changed slightly, and generally in the ways that I was suggesting. I pretty much agree with it all now except for very minor points of ordering within tiers.

The discussion we have here feeds into the time I spend enjoying the game, and visa-versa. Often people shining a light on subjects or character I am not as experienced with leads me to investigate and arrive at similar conclusions.

Wait no hold on what is Gunner doing in the third-lowest tier. That totally needs to be fixed.

Maybe it's just me, but I have lots of trouble killing with Gunner against people who understand his options. This is almost exclusively what is holding my opinion of him back.

Edit:
Also, I don't even bother rating 1111 Miis, because I have zero personal experience with them and probably never will.

Edit 2:
Also, my person Gunner and Swordfighter are probably disproportionately immature compared to most other characters, because there is significantly less competitive footage of them compared to everyone else. (This is not true of Brawler, who is imo simpler to begin with)

 

[Terotrous]

The discussion we have here feeds into the time I spend enjoying the game, and visa-versa. Often people shining a light on subjects or character I am not as experienced with leads me to investigate and arrive at similar conclusions.

I wasn't accusing you of being a copycat or anything, it's good to see the discussion on this forum leads to something useful.

In general your opinion on this game tends to be one of the ones I respect the most because it's clear you do a ton of testing on it.

Maybe it's just me, but I have lots of trouble killing with Gunner against people who understand his options. This is almost exclusively what is holding my opinion of him back.

I don't really see it, but even if so a very strong neutral game with kill moves that need a read isn't really 6th worst. There a lot of other characters that kind of have this issue but are still competent.

Also, what are you killing with with Samus that Gunner doesn't have? Charge Shot? If you really feel you need that move, you can take that over the grenade, while still having wholly superior B moves for the other slots and moves that actually link properly.

 

[Conda]

It's one thing to only know what character your opponent is using when the match starts; with customs,
now you have to wonder what customs he has until he decides to use them. Almost every single time.

They could just implement an info screen during loading that tells you. It's only 'not possible' if we take Nintendo's culture of laziness for Updates into account. - in which case yeah, it'd be much too difficult to create an info screen during loading that tells you your opponent's chosen special moves. Better to ban them on For Glory. God forbid any work be done.

 

[Flamecircle]

On the topic of custom moves- @DunnoBro 's custom combos are wonderful, and really show how characters punish games can improve. It would be nice if we shared some of those. That uppercutter guide on the previous page was great in that regard.


Also, did Shiek's bouncing fish variants get nerfed along with the fish itself? Because both of those moves feel excellent.

Also also, am I wrong or are ZSS's flipkick customs really, really good?

 

[san.]

Gunner:

With the back towards the ledge, 9-frame dsmash kills ~90%.
With the opponent towards the ledge, Fsmash kills ~95%

5-frame utilt kills ~130%
8-frame dtilt kills ~135%

11-frame usmash kills ~115%. Sometimes they can SDI out, but it depends on how they are falling into it and how you are sliding with the usmash

Fair offstage kills early and it's easy to do, and bombs kill offstage early.

Uair kills off the top pretty easily at 100% and completely covers air dodges.

Gunner's kill moves are low in power, but are easy to land once 120% is reached. Smashes can still get medium-level kills. He doesn't need to commit that much to them as well.

 

[Thinkaman]

I wasn't accusing you of being a copycat or anything, it's good to see the discussion on this forum leads to something useful.

Oh yeah; rereading it, that bit sounded really defensive, which wasn't my intention.

I don't really see it, but even if so a very strong neutral game with kill moves that need a read isn't really 6th worst. There a lot of other characters that kind have this issue but are still competent.

Eh, "6th worst" means very little in this context. Like I'm pretty confident that DDD is down there near the very bottom, but I don't think he is an awful character at all.

Also, what are you killing with with Samus that Gunner doesn't have? Charge Shot? If you really feel you need that move, you can take that over the grenade, while still having wholly superior B moves for the other slots and moves that actually link properly.

U-tilt, f-smash, bair, and up-b 3 all kill faster than anything Gunner has.

Also, did Shiek's bouncing fish variants get nerfed along with the fish itself? Because both of those moves feel excellent.

They did not. They are good moves, more-so Pisces, but Bouncing Fish is still superior.

Also also, am I wrong or are ZSS's flipkick customs really, really good?

You are correct, and yet the default is still better.

 

[RWB]

I've played 1111 Brawler and it's extremely handicapped.
Recovery is VERY predictable(even moreso than usual for Brawler).
Rising Axe Kick is bad bad bad as a combat move, and honestly not much better as a recovery.
Shot Put is a situational projectile, but robs you of one of your most reliable kill options(Ultimate Uppercut).
Onslaught... is good. Good punish move with respectable kill power.
Head-On assault: This is a terrible move. One of the worst in the game. Never use it.

2222 improvements?
Neutral B: Ultimate Uppercut- Great kill move with Super Armor.
Side B: Flaming Side Kick- Eh, it's okay, better for recovery than Onslaught, but probably worse overall.
Up B: Hurricane Kick- does huge damage, kills very early, and can be comboed into at certain %s.
Down B: Feint Jump- Great move that can be used for trickery and recovery.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shotput is still a respectable move don't take anything away from it.
The main Flaw of 1111 is Head-on Assault. It's actual ass. Foot Flurry is still a potent move, it is just out-prioritized by Feint Jumps movement. Brawler has 1 Bad option for each slot and while Soaring Axe Kick is that Bad option for the up special. It's probably the least insignificant of the bad options in a vacuum.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've played 1111 Brawler and it's extremely handicapped.

Yeah, my reaction has always been "Ew. Let's not do that." Life's too short to play with an arbitrary and unfun handicap in a game with so many other options.

 

[Terotrous]

U-tilt, f-smash, bair, and up-b 3 all kill faster than anything Gunner has.

Just read what San says about Gunner's kill moves, it generally matches my experience. In particular, DSmash is a really good move. It's fast and strong and can also hit below the ledge, almost akin to a LM DSmash. Uair is also great, it's almost akin to Screw Attack in usage, but with lesser commitment.

Gunner doesn't always kill super early, but she has all kind of good hitboxes and a really solid neutral game. Honestly I feel that she's around the same level as Brawler and definitely don't see her being that bad.


I'm also slightly sceptical about Yoshi being quite that high in customs on, simply because he doesn't benefit much from them. I'd expect him to drop at least a couple slots, in particular I'd easily put him below Brawler. Still good, but more people got brought up to his level.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Clarification of how to take this so I'm on the same wave length.
Is Zelda for instance bottom on your list because she loses the most MU's overall, or losing to the most notable characters more than anyone else?

 

[Thinkaman]

Gunner doesn't always kill super early, but she has all kind of good hitboxes and a really solid neutral game. Honestly I feel that she's around the same level as Brawler and definitely don't see her being that bad.

Wow, same level as Brawler? Pretty bold!

I'm also slightly sceptical about Yoshi being quite that high in customs on, simply because he doesn't benefit much from them. I'd expect him to drop at least a couple slots, in particular I'd easily put him below Brawler. Still good, but more people got brought up to his level.

Yoshi doesn't benefit meaningfully, but not many people move past him. (Close, but not quite) His fundamentals and unique advantages are just too robust. I think Yoshi is the most underrated "top 10" character right now.

Is Zelda for instance bottom on your list because she loses the most MU's overall, or losing to the most notable characters more than anyone else?

An ambiguous mix of both. All the matchups, with a slightly weighted bias towards the top.

DDD for example, would be a tad higher without this weighting.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@ Terotrous you seem to have Mii Gunner experience. In your opinion, what's the optimal size for the character? I find Mii Fighters really hard to judge because I can never figure out precisely how they should be built, and how unpopular they are makes it harder to get good data on that point.

 

[Terotrous]

Wow, same level as Brawler? Pretty bold!

I'm pretty confident in it. If you think Yoshi's ability to zone people out with eggs while remaining really mobile is scary, wait until you see what gunner can do with grenades and Fairs. A lot of characters are just going to hate this matchup.

Yoshi doesn't benefit meaningfully, but not many people move past him. (Close, but not quite) His fundamentals and unique advantages are just too robust. I think Yoshi is the most underrated "top 10" character right now.

I'm actually curious as what you would consider a unique advantage for Yoshi. Do you just mean his armored double jump and un-shield-pokable shield? Those are handy tools for sure, but I mainly just think of Yoshi as a character with a great neutral game and very solid fundamentals. I think Yoshi's neutral game in customs off is easily top 5, his reward on hit just isn't quite as bonkers as some of the other top characters.

And yeah, I have no idea why no one is playing him in tournament right now. Because you have to play honest and everyone hates playing honest? "I don't want to have to make a read to get a kill, I just want to throw out frame 5 unpunishable Fair over and over again!"

@ Terotrous you seem to have Mii Gunner experience. In your opinion, what's the optimal size for the character? I find Mii Fighters really hard to judge because I can never figure out precisely how they should be built, and how unpopular they are makes it harder to get good data on that point.

I just leave all the Miis at default size and weight because the consensus seems to be that that's how they will be implemented in tournament. Otherwise it seems accepted that tiny gunner is the best gunner for extra mobility. Her range is still plenty big even at min size.

Also while I do play Gunner sometimes San is definitely the authority here.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm pretty confident in it. If you think Yoshi's ability to zone people out with eggs while remaining really mobile is scary, wait until you see what gunner can do with grenades and Fairs.

I pretty much just spam retreating fairs and bombs. It's a really annoying character!

I'm actually curious as what you would consider a unique advantage for Yoshi. Do you just mean his armored double jump and un-shield-pokable shield?

Those plus absurd max horizontal air speed, a Luigi-style nair, and jab-usmash. It's a very complete package that comes together in a way unlike anyone else, including those who have similar individual tools.

I mainly just think of Yoshi as a character with a great neutral game and very solid fundamentals. I think Yoshi's neutral game in customs off is easily top 5, his reward on hit just isn't quite as bonkers as some of the other top characters.

You say this, until little wins like jabs, grabs, and egg lay convert into uair chains, dairs, fairs, or smashes. It's Ganon-levels of "oh hey 60%"; the difference is far less emphasis on the hard read, and more importance on followups.

And yeah, I have no idea why no one is playing him in tournament right now. Because you have to play honest and everyone hates playing honest?

The other best player in STL besides/alongside me (Flow-Yo) is a Yoshi main. Utterly terrifying.

 

[Conda]

I pretty much just spam retreating fairs and bombs. It's a really annoying character!



Those plus absurd max horizontal air speed, a Luigi-style nair, and jab-usmash. It's a very complete package that comes together in a way unlike anyone else, including those who have similar individual tools.



You say this, until little wins like jabs, grabs, and egg lay convert into uair chains, dairs, fairs, or smashes. It's Ganon-levels of "oh hey 60%"; the difference is far less emphasis on the hard read, and more importance on followups.



The other best player in STL besides/alongside me (Flow-Yo) is a Yoshi main. Utterly terrifying.

I think people are understanding it's very likely that Yoshi isn't that good because of lack of results. If he was so good on a fundamentals-level, he'd be seeing results that other characters with excellent fundamentals are seeing (Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Luigi). There's must be something that's causing Yoshi players to not do well outside of locals.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I think people are understanding it's very likely that Yoshi isn't that good because of lack of results. If he was so good on a fundamentals-level, he'd be seeing results that other characters with excellent fundamentals are seeing (Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Luigi). There's must be something that's causing Yoshi players to not do well outside of locals.

That's not always going to be true with the skill gaps in the playerbase at this current moment in time.

 

[Terotrous]

I pretty much just spam retreating fairs and bombs. It's a really annoying character!

I feel like if a character can really frustrate you, that's an indication that there's something quite good about them. You're probably getting frustrated because the character builds damage effectively or you have to work very hard to get in. Compare Olimar from Brawl, who is a total PITA to fight. I was actually an Olimar player for most of Brawl, but I list Ivysaur as my main because no one who played Olimar wants to admit they played Olimar. However, the tools that make him so aggravating also make him one of the best characters in the game when played at the highest level.

You say this, until little wins like jabs, grabs, and egg lay convert into uair chains, dairs, fairs, or smashes. It's Ganon-levels of "oh hey 60%"; the difference is far less emphasis on the hard read, and more importance on followups.

I'm pretty sure very few of these are guaranteed damage though, that's just solid fundamentals allowing advantageous situations to be converted into damage. What is also nice about Yoshi is that you can choose how much risk you want to take. Playing against a character where going for a follow-up could hurt? You can play it more safe and just take stage control or safer damage using eggs.

I tend to play Yoshi pretty aggressively, but he can be a super patient character too. I was watching Dren play Yoshi and he was laming everyone out for near timeouts and it was a glorious thing to watch (perhaps non-Yoshi players might not have enjoyed it as much). There's a lot of flexibility in his toolset.

The other best player in STL besides/alongside me (Flow-Yo) is a Yoshi main. Utterly terrifying.

Tell him to go to Evo!

There must be something that's causing Yoshi players to not do well outside of locals.

What Yoshi players?

That's the problem. Seriously. Too many Yoshi players dropped him after Brawl (god knows why considering he got way better) and it doesn't seem like a lot of new people are picking him up.

I also notice (at least on Gamefaqs) that Yoshi has a reputation as a scumbag character. He definitely kind of is. Maybe that's deterring people from wanting to pick him up. There's always that low-tier hero mentality that attracts people. Could it be that previous Yoshi mains liked Yoshi because he was kind of lackluster and now that he's taken some lessons from Fox they don't want to play him anymore?

 

[mimgrim]

@ Terotrous you seem to have Mii Gunner experience. In your opinion, what's the optimal size for the character? I find Mii Fighters really hard to judge because I can never figure out precisely how they should be built, and how unpopular they are makes it harder to get good data on that point.

I know you didn't ask me buuuuut,

I go absolute smallest gunner with minimum weight while I believe @ san. has Gunner at about Megaman height with minimum weight (I believe he does this so as to be able to have the most range while still being able to do FH double Fair whereas I prefer the straight-up increased mobility).

Gunner doesn't get hit nearly as hard by the range decrease when he becomes smaller because in relation to most of the cast he still has really good range at even min-size with some pretty insane mobility.

@ Thinkaman Gunner doesn't have the best kill-options but he doesn't have a bad time killing, on top of what San listed as his main up-close kill moves he can also just plain straight up kill you from zoning/camping you out with his projectiles since they will kill you when you get to higher percents (think about Samus' Missiles in Melee, what made them so threatening was that, compared to most other projectile, that they would eventually kill you outright at reasonable percents, again in terms of other projectiles) not to mention Gunner has some insane edge-guarding capabilities leading to early gimps. So he's not that bad when it comes to killing.

I was actually an Olimar player for most of Brawl, but I list Ivysaur as my main because no one who played Olimar wants to admit they played Olimar. However, the tools that make him so aggravating also make him one of the best characters in the game when played at the highest level.!

Pffft. I proudly admit that I main Olimar in Brawl.

 

[RWB]

For Brawler Size, I favor Short Miis. Thin has some advantages that make me like it more than Wide(better dash, better air speed), but I'm not sure it's better overall.

 

[Terotrous]

Pffft. I proudly admit that I main Olimar in Brawl.

Haha, I just never really felt satisfied winning with him, and Ivysaur was always my favourite character, I just didn't want to play Squirtle and Charizard too. When BBrawl and PM made her a separate character I never looked back (particular because Olimar was even more broke in BBrawl and in PM he kinda sucks).

I have to admit, though, I was playing Olimar last night on FG and I was kinda feeling the allure of the dark side again. He's no longer a braindead character, it now takes skill to zone with him, but it's clearly no less frustrating for the opponent when done well. If only I still had my Pikmin chain. I really hate the winged pikmin move. Dammit Sakurai, why you fail so hard with custom moves?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Mii gunner and samus are nothing alike. i wrote way to much on this topic.

Also on that note. Custom Samus is Samus fixed.

 

[Terotrous]

Mii gunner and samus are nothing alike. i wrote way to much on this topic.

Also on that note. Custom Samus is Samus fixed.

Only somewhat. Her normals still don't link properly and DTilt still needs its damage back. It is definitely an improvement though.

 

[Antonykun]

I actually fought a good Pikachu. It's like I'm fighting sonic with projectiles and a god tier Spin Dash :/ I need to ask how to beat this move.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Only somewhat. Her normals still don't link properly and DTilt still needs its damage back. It is definitely an improvement though.

i explained why her normals are fine expecially her u air. Her u smash ill give you though. it can definity get some more tweaking.
fair is not hard to link at all when you get used to it along with u air. Also beats air dodge.

Her u air the other hand her best move. is her most versitile anti air option and sharker as well as a combo set up machine.
her u air not linking give you the choice to either launch your opponent or keep them where they are if you wana keep postioning and pressure. (sharking is the best for this)

im also just very confused why everone want d tilt to kill. like sure it would be nice but its not like samus has trouble killing or anything its not really solving her issue's when in neutral witch custom samus does fix. d tilt also hits at that nice angle for potential follow ups anyway. Its (not garenteed i know but postioning is wha samus shines in.)

Samus is not a zoner or a camper. shes all about positioning yes but shes more about pressure than anything else since she actually has a plethora of great normals along with 1 terrible (but not useless) jab.
Iv spent alot of time with this character so it can be hard to get this across to people who only played around with her. (expecially considering the first 2 weeks with her were like a nightmare) but thing really start clicking after a while.

*edit* i also learned terribly that samus lives off of the c stick. Xd facing @ Antonykun made me realize that lol.

 

[Timbers]

I am sort of just quoting the post you were quoting, but I disagree with his point by a decent amount. Having played this game competitively for a decent amount of time, I have seen plenty of people who used that same philosophy (where they knew t or not) of "why learn to deal with the problem, when they can just avoid it by taking another route."

Not to speak for SolidSense, but I interpreted his post differently. The "depth" of a character matchup is spread thin the more characters you have in a roster. If there were only 12 viable characters in Smash, then you would likely be facing the same sorts of characters more often. If you face a matchup 800 times, you're likely to know the ins and outs of that character matchup and how to most optimally handle it with your own character. In a game of 50~ viable characters, you may only have 200 games worth of experience against that character. You likely would not know how to approach this matchup as well as someone with 800 games worth of knowledge.

It's similar to what you wrote below:

At high levels of play this ultimately rarely works. Because you HAVE to have that depth to win against someone who knows what they are doing.

High level play against two characters who know exactly what the other is capable of in any given moment makes for some very technical and confident play. Having tons of viable and competitive characters could possibly stunt this growth.

 

[Terotrous]

Her u air the other hand her best move. is her most versitile anti air option and sharker as well as a combo set up machine.

You can still SDI out of it more often than I'd like. Don't most moves of this type have some of the hits pull you inward to make them link better? It really doesn't seem like her Uair does.

her u air not linking give you the choice to either launch your opponent or keep them where they are if you wana keep postioning and pressure. (sharking is the best for this)

I feel like it's usually the opponent who gets to choose, unfortunately.

im also just very confused why everone want d tilt to kill. like sure it would be nice but its not like samus has trouble killing or anything its not really solving her issue's when in neutral witch custom samus does fix.

I think the deadly dtilt basically just forces you to respect her more. Like sure, Screw Attack OOS is decently threatening now, but it doesn't kill until absurdly high percents. Having the ability to spotdodge into DTilt would force you to respect her a lot more, and zoning characters always want you to respect them because that's how they set up their zoning.

See also Megaman UTilt, which serves the same purpose, but does it much better.

Samus is not a zoner or a camper. shes all about positioning yes but shes more about pressure than anything else since she actually has a plethora of great normals along with 1 terrible (but not useless) jab.

I kinda feel like she's supposed to be a zoner (and with customs she can be), she just doesn't do it all that well. If we're just looking to play footsies / control space there's a lot of people who would do it better.

 

[Judo777]

Not to speak for SolidSense, but I interpreted his post differently. The "depth" of a character matchup is spread thin the more characters you have in a roster. If there were only 12 viable characters in Smash, then you would likely be facing the same sorts of characters more often. If you face a matchup 800 times, you're likely to know the ins and outs of that character matchup and how to most optimally handle it with your own character. In a game of 50~ viable characters, you may only have 200 games worth of experience against that character. You likely would not know how to approach this matchup as well as someone with 800 games worth of knowledge.

It's similar to what you wrote below:



High level play against two characters who know exactly what the other is capable of in any given moment makes for some very technical and confident play. Having tons of viable and competitive characters could possibly stunt this growth.

But it won't get stunted......because after someone loses because they didn't know the ins andouts of a MU, they will THEN go and study the MU and learn it (ideally). At high levels of play, I'm not going to run into a brand new character main every single tournament, and when an outlier with an unfamiliar character does finally proceed through the bracket to reach me (the unnamed high level player) and happens to beat me, then he gets his one surprise victory, and I hit the lab and study that crap.

As a result the ignorance factor won't be as prevalent (maybe not at all) next time, problem solved.

The reason this doesn't play out as clear cut in actual tournament play is because skill levels aren't as equal as people like to believe at high levels. So X player is WAAAYYYY better than Y player and doesn't know crap about the other persons character but skates by due to his superior talent and or character.

 

[Yokoblue]

I think people don't realize Yoshi's fundamental flaws in relation to the top tiers.
I played Yoshi for around 4 months (3ds and until a month ago) and i've recently dropped him because of that.

1) Our worst matchups is Sheik... Enough said
2) Think about every time you are close to your opponent and you both shield or w/e, Yoshi always lose in this situation because he can't grab. The best option Yoshi has in that situation is Jump OOS retreating/forward nair.
3) Being unable to grab in this grab heavy metagame sucks. Every top tier get really close to you and Yoshi has a hard time at really close range
4) The punish game of yoshi is laughable compared to other tops or even high tier. If an opponent miss a tether grab or something your biggest "combos" will do usually around 20%. Compare that to Luigi, Pikachu, Sheik etc...
5) Yoshi has great edgeguarding tools but you have to know that you are always at risk of being footstooled if you go offstage. Getting footstooled = Autodeath
6) The fact that Yoshi can't grab make shielding really good against him. He also doesnt have a lot of options that are safe on shield. Of course you can command grab but its punishable if missed and doesnt do a lot of damage early, and even late it does what... 20 damage with 2 up smash once the opponent is in the egg...

Thats only a couple of points that imo make Yoshi struggle in high tier format. @Sinister Slush Could maybe add more to that.