Character Competitive Impressions

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Pikachu would like a word with you guys

Speaking of I'm sad a Pika didn't get top 8. I didn't expect it but I would have liked it.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

I'm willing to bet that either Zero or M2K will win the Top 8 unless something wacky happens, though I'm leaning on towards Zero.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm willing to bet that either Zero or M2K will win the Top 8 unless something wacky happens, though I'm leaning on towards Zero.

Hey, Zero's gotta be the hero... Since I missed most of it, how does the Duck Hunt guy play?

 

[Nu~]

though

Meanwhile Pocketed and launched Hydrants deal 26%. I don't think Pocketed fruits get a multiplier because they're normal items.

You really want to give pacman 2 hydrants to launch with a key?

 

[dragontamer]

Shwaaaaaat?? So they just said like "sorry man, even thought you won, you're outta here" dammit dude that sucks. It was zards time to shine and he got takin out by time constraints... Salt

You might say that the Fire-Alarm put out the fire.

Speaking for real though, they're doing a marvelous job at recovering from such a disaster. Props to the APEX crew for getting a new venue set up so quick.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Hey, Zero's gotta be the hero... Since I missed most of it, how does the Duck Hunt guy play?

The only way Duck Hunt can, Specials.
No pun intended on can.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

Hey, Zero's gotta be the hero... Since I missed most of it, how does the Duck Hunt guy play?

He seems pretty good when it comes to using Duck Hunt's explosive can.

 

[Nocally]

Speaking of I'm sad a Pika didn't get top 8. I didn't expect it but I would have liked it.

Pikachu is just underrepped, and with Esam not going I didn't expect it either.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Esam and no Yoshi reps aside, I'm more sad with the outcome of Japan players slowly taking each other out in pools.

 

[NairWizard]

Placement in one tournament doesn't prove or disprove a character's viability. Your placing depends strongly on whom you get pitted against. With 50 characters, avoiding your bad matchups (even Sheik/Diddy) can occur easily by chance.

That said, I don't want to discredit the players who are doing/have done well. MVD's DHD, aMSa's Greninja, and Abadango's Pacman are all great. The takeaway should be what they are doing, and how we can advance the metagames of their characters by improving on what they are doing, rather than that they placed high.

 

[HeroMystic]

Completely agree with Solid, and even further Pierce7D just said something similar on stream.

 

[FullMoon]

Seeing a character doing well doesn't really prove whether they're viable or not, yes, but it still shows that those characters have a lot of potential. aMSa's Greninja does a lot of stuff that I don't see other Greninja do very often or succesfully, if they even try in the first place. Him placing high at Apex might not mean much in the long run, but it's still a way to show what that character can do, especially for a game this young.

It's still great to see Greninja, Pac-Man and Duck Hunt do well in a tournament and if anything seeing them is going to open people's eyes to the potential those characters have, since I remember a lot of people write off Greninja and consider him a worse Sheik even though they're entirely different from each other. Tournament results generate hype for the characters and makes more people willing to study them and as such their metas develop faster. I'm fully expecting that the meta for those three will start developing a bit faster now that they've done well at Apex.

 

[DblCrest]

I want to see more Kirby and Luigi . XD
I like Mario more but Luigi needs more love.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I want to see more Kirby and Luigi . XD
I like Mario more but Luigi leads more love.

what? And if you mean Needs. No.

I doubt Miis were even played at all this tournament. Thanks Apex for reducing the breadth of options.
How many Peaches were there in all srsness and I saw one jigglehpuff.
There is a lot of underrepresented characters, which is a damn shame given just how young this game is, when it should be seeing its greatest amount of diversity, and more players are considering dropping their characters.

If this game is Diddy, Sonic, Sheik, ZSS, Rosa with maybe a Pit by EVO, that will be damn unattractive.

 

[Kofu]

You really want to give pacman 2 hydrants to launch with a key?

I'm just saying it's an option. Incidentally Villager/Pac-Man is a really fun MU that's probably in Villager's favor but is definitely winnable for Pac-Man. It's all about that stage control.

One thing that's a little pet peeve of mine is the insinuation that Pac-Man always has a key on-hand. It's often going to be the case, yes; he'll have one ready when it matters and it's his most immediately threatening projectile. But having a key means he lacks more dangerous traps and kill setups. Not that it takes long to toss out a key, but still...

 

[BBC7]

Here's hoping that someone will pick up Mr. Game & Watch and perform well in Apex 2016. I mean, patches can happen, right? Right? Please don't tell me this the final patch, Diddy 2stronk and other characters 2notstronk. I hope Mewtwo comes with a balance patch although that's not likely the case.

 

[HeavyLobster]

. All right, he has really good frame data which is fine since / have good frame data too, but here's the kicker, his limbs stretch and he has the fastest aerials with Fair, Bair, and the infamous Uair along with the fastest Up Smash, fast Side Smash and Down Smash, and fast Dtilt which combos into itself. I remember someone using his Down Smash and it's a good Down Smash coming out at frame 3, but most people go for the D-throw > Uair schtick that annoys a lot of people. Diddy could have been less irritating if people mixed up his game.

Diddy wouldn't be too bad if he just had normal hitboxes, but Sakurai just had to give him Snake's hitboxes from Brawl. There's something seriously wrong when Diddy's hitboxes are meatier than Donkey's.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I remember watching Aniki's Link back in early melee and studying the crap out of it, and it wasn't just him there were people for everybody way back.

It would be a shame to be 10-14 now and watching Smash 4 right now. With all the "pick Diddy/Sheik or we ****ed" mentality (that is understandable) going on, those young players won't get the privilege some of us had to get inspired watching characters they're interested in as the scene ages and more players decide "This isn't working time to drop it".

Say what you will of Melees balance, everyone got some action over time, even Brawl for all the MK ********. We already soft banning Mii's with rulesets lmfao. Largest roster we've ever had and it's rather untouched.

I hate the damn dog but I'll root for MVD anyways just because I think we've gone to this "gotta pick top" mindset way earlier then I expected it to.

/bitter.

 

[outfoxd]

I can only hope high placings make people give characters second looks. Im sure metas don't grow in vacuums.

That being said, go MVD.

 

[Ffamran]

Here's hoping that someone will pick up Mr. Game & Watch and perform well in Apex 2016. I mean, patches can happen, right? Right? Please don't tell me this the final patch, Diddy 2stronk and other characters 2notstronk. I hope Mewtwo comes with a balance patch although that's not likely the case.

I thought GimR was the Mr. Game & Watch player? That or once again, he's messing with us.

Diddy wouldn't be too bad if he just had normal hitboxes, but Sakurai just had to give him Snake's hitboxes from Brawl. There's something seriously wrong when Diddy's hitboxes are meatier than Donkey's.

Or the fact that he has fast and powerful Smashes and aerials. Not even Little Mac has that and he's the ground fighter. That and because Little Mac's hitboxes are normal unlike Meta Knight's botched ones and Diddy's wacky ones - stretchy limbs. Seriously, who thought it was a good idea for Diddy to have a frame 3 Uair, frame 5 Bair, frame 6 Fair, a frame 5 Up Smash, frame 6 Down Smash, and a frame 4 Dtilt? Oh, right, it's the same developers who thought it was a good idea for Zelda to have 3 sweet-spot aerials: Dair, Fair, and Bair. Diddy's Uair alone is essentially Marth's if it constantly tipped no matter where you hit and came out 2 frames faster. A large arc of doom. Now, add in Dr. Mario's Bair, but since Diddy can jump, that means Diddy can abuse the hell out of the move.

I have nothing, absolutely nothing against Diddy Kong players since some of them play him because they like his fighting style, his play style, the games he came from, Donkey Kong Country, whatever, but there are some serious design choices that I question about Diddy. At least he doesn't have transcendent priority on a lot of moves.

 

[the king of murder]

Weren't there a lot of people? Yet nobody made it to top 16.

 

[Ffamran]

Weren't there a lot of people? Yet nobody made it to top 16.

That's been happening a lot lately. Captain Falcons come in to show their moves, but don't win anything. It's like if Captain Falcon was Michael Jackson, showed up, danced and sang, and just left. No applause, no awards, and no invitations at all.

 

[BBC7]

I thought GimR was the Mr. Game & Watch player? That or once again, he's messing with us.

Well, he is, but he's not doing anything in terms of Apex IIRC. I haven't watched the stream because my computer won't run Twitch for some reason, but I don't think he's in Top 16. I don't even think he showed up at all but I could be wrong.

 

[LinedPlayer]

Can somebody link me to one of MVD's matches? I am trying to learn how to use Duck Hunt and I'd like to see him play

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

I'm sure Diddy will remain top tier throughout Sm4sh's competitive tenure, but people will begin to rely less and less on him as the metagame develops. I for one, hope that Mewtwo kicks ass when he's released.

 

[Locke 06]

The omission in big name players/ones with hype is Will and his DK/Sheik. Do we know what happened to him?

 

[the king of murder]

That's been happening a lot lately. Captain Falcons come in to show their moves, but don't win anything. It's like if Captain Falcon was Michael Jackson, showed up, danced and sang, and just left. No applause, no awards, and no invitations at all.

Well everyone said is supposed to be high tier and he is one of the more entertaining characters to watch who is actually good alongside and maybe . Such a shame that all of these dropped out. At least and are putting in work.

Edit: and are also very flashy and entertaining charas who are good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Diddy wouldn't be too bad if he just had normal hitboxes, but Sakurai just had to give him Snake's hitboxes from Brawl. There's something seriously wrong when Diddy's hitboxes are meatier than Donkey's.

His hitboxes are above average, but what is really annoying about Diddy is he's also pretty small and very mobile, AND his damage is huge.

It isn't really just any one thing that's wrong with him. He just has a lot of things that are slightly too good.

 

[Ffamran]

Well everyone said is supposed to be high tier and he is one of the more entertaining characters to watch who is actually good alongside and maybe . Such a shame that all of these dropped out. At least and are putting in work.

I think it might be because people know how to fight Captain Falcon and he doesn't have any insane things other than being fast on the ground which you could argue with Fox, Sheik, and ZSS, too. So, Captain Falcon might be the Little Mac of high level play where people just know how to fight him. Does this mean he's bad, no, it's just that it means a lot of people know how to fight Little Mac and Captain Falcon, so that doesn't stop them from slaughtering people if they slip up. I mean, there aren't a lot of Luigis, Marios, Mega Man, or Links, but there are a ton of Captain Falcons. Are there even a lot of Foxes, ZSS's, and Sheiks? I know there's a lot of Diddys, but not them. Whenever I see videos, there's bound to be 5 Captain Falcons win or lose.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If this game is Diddy, Sonic, Sheik, ZSS, Rosa with maybe a Pit by EVO, that will be damn unattractive.

6 different characters reaching top plaxcings at a major international tournament is pretty amazing and far from unattractive. Especially since Pikachu, Fox and Ness are also potentially in that list.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

6 different characters reaching top plaxcings at a major international tournament is pretty amazing and far from unattractive. Especially since Pikachu, Fox and Ness are also potentially in that list.

What Pikachu player Gheb...wait.
Which is what I mean, we have considerable characters multiple in fact. We have really meh representation of them and I don't just mean top 8 or 16. We can talk the theoreotics of who can meet top 8 or 16, but im saying straight up, this time in a games lifespan, Brawl and Melee weren't centralizing themselves to this point *yet*. I'd argue most games don't. It is inevitable that they do and I have no problem with them doing so, but damn Wii U's been here 3 months lol, 5/6 months if we count 3ds.

Very underwhelming, especially if Esam is dropping out. Given that this is the point we've reached in 3 months, I'd be surprised if it's not reduced a year from now. If it continues, Melee will have better variety then Smash 4 a year from now. A balance patch *could* shift things but given the mentality that lead to this *anyways*, Diddy could be nerfed to garbage and people aren't going to go back to their secondaries, they're going to jump to Sheik. Esam was the Pika poster child but he's apparently leaving, which leads to "who inspires future Pikas from this point? And even for Pikas who exist right now, what % of those actually make top level?". If the game continues to narrow you may end up not seeing Pika outside of japan for awhile at large tourneys.

If the metagame is Sheik, Diddy, Pika, Sonic, and 2-5 "other" characters 5 years hell maybe 1.5 years from now I honestly have little problem with that. Just a shame that it's coming to that point within 3 months.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think it might be because people know how to fight Captain Falcon and he doesn't have any insane things other than being fast on the ground which you could argue with Fox, Sheik, and ZSS, too. So, Captain Falcon might be the Little Mac of high level play where people just know how to fight him. Does this mean he's bad, no, it's just that it means a lot of people know how to fight Little Mac and Captain Falcon, so that doesn't stop them from slaughtering people if they slip up. I mean, there aren't a lot of Luigis, Marios, Mega Man, or Links, but there are a ton of Captain Falcons. Are there even a lot of Foxes, ZSS's, and Sheiks? I know there's a lot of Diddys, but not them. Whenever I see videos, there's bound to be 5 Captain Falcons win or lose.

Captain Falcon is pretty much the face of Smash Bros imo. Brawl Falcon put a lot of people off, but now that he's good, there's just a large resurgance of Falcon players. The fact he's purely an aggressive character helps too.

 

[Ffamran]

Captain Falcon is pretty much the face of Smash Bros imo. Brawl Falcon put a lot of people off, but now that he's good, there's just a large resurgance of Falcon players. The fact he's purely an aggressive character helps too.

Which is sad because people probably don't even remember or know what F-Zero is anymore. Captain Falcon should just be retconned as a SSB character.

Speaking of which, how many Captain Falcons were there that got eliminated? I swear if the number was close to a hundred...

 

[deepseadiva]

What Pikachu player Gheb...wait.
Which is what I mean, we have considerable characters multiple in fact. We have really meh representation of them and I don't just mean top 8 or 16. We can talk the theoreotics of who can meet top 8 or 16, but im saying straight up, this time in a games lifespan, Brawl and Melee weren't centralizing themselves to this point *yet*. I'd argue most games don't. It is inevitable that they do and I have no problem with them doing so, but damn Wii U's been here 3 months lol, 5/6 months if we count 3ds.

Very underwhelming, especially if Esam is dropping out. Given that this is the point we've reached in 3 months, I'd be surprised if it's not reduced a year from now. If it continues, Melee will have better variety then Smash 4 a year from now. A balance patch *could* shift things but given the mentality that lead to this *anyways*, Diddy could be nerfed to garbage and people aren't going to go back to their secondaries, they're going to jump to Sheik.

If The metagame is Sheik, Diddy, Pika, Sonic, and 2-5 "other" characters 5 years from now I honestly have no problem with that. Just a shame that it's coming to that point within 3 months.

I was scared of this too, but as much as we can't anticipate it, balance and gameplay patches are most likely coming. A prospect that has never been seen in Smash before. Not to mention an entirely new character.

This is all so crazy and exciting.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Captain Falcon is pretty much the face of Smash Bros imo.

Please stop.

Fox is the face of Smash bros.

Fox Only, no items, Final Destination is so ingrained into my memory of Smash, my unborn children will probably Waveshine out of the womb.

 

[the king of murder]

I think it might be because people know how to fight Captain Falcon and he doesn't have any insane things other than being fast on the ground which you could argue with Fox, Sheik, and ZSS, too. So, Captain Falcon might be the Little Mac of high level play where people just know how to fight him. Does this mean he's bad, no, it's just that it means a lot of people know how to fight Little Mac and Captain Falcon, so that doesn't stop them from slaughtering people if they slip up. I mean, there aren't a lot of Luigis, Marios, Mega Man, or Links, but there are a ton of Captain Falcons. Are there even a lot of Foxes, ZSS's, and Sheiks? I know there's a lot of Diddys, but not them. Whenever I see videos, there's bound to be 5 Captain Falcons win or lose.

Yeah you are right. approach options(and generally his playstyle) are very straight foward. I know that because I main
I know they play nothing alike but their base is the same. Which is why charas with a lot of trickery like and managed to go so far because opponents couldn't find answers to all of their options because they have so many.

Also, I know that representation is going strong. I think Dakpo wins a lot of tournies with her and than there are others like Nick, Choco and Leon doing work in other tournies. Not to mention, all the Brawl Marth mains have dropped him for her.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Please stop.

Fox is the face of Smash bros.

Fox Only, no items, Final Destination is so ingrained into my memory of Smash, my unborn children will probably Waveshine out of the womb.

Fox is the villain of Smash. Falcon is the hero.

 

[Makorel]

Fox is the villain of Smash. Falcon is the hero.

Except no one really has any animosity towards Fox the same way people dislike Diddy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Captain Falcon is pretty much the face of Smash Bros imo. Brawl Falcon put a lot of people off, but now that he's good, there's just a large resurgance of Falcon players. The fact he's purely an aggressive character helps too.

I wouldn't explicitly call anyone in this game a purely aggressive character. Falcon's best overall strategy revolves around waiting and forcing people to put themselves in bad positions around his massive ranged threat.

To be honest, I would more argue Bowser Jr. is a candidate for the most "purely aggressive" character in this game. He can't really camp, is slightly too tall to be good at walling people consistently, but his projectiles and mobility give him a lot of setups and unique capitalization opportunities. This character overall does much better attacking people rather than waiting for them to do stuff.

Which is sad because people probably don't even remember or know what F-Zero is anymore. Captain Falcon should just be retconned as a SSB character.

Speaking of which, how many Captain Falcons were there that got eliminated? I swear if the number was close to a hundred...

Or, F-Zero and Star Fox universes collide and we get the G-Zero races that we were promised in the alternative ending in Star Fox Command.

 

[HeroMystic]

Please stop.

Fox is the face of Smash bros.

Fox Only, no items, Final Destination is so ingrained into my memory of Smash, my unborn children will probably Waveshine out of the womb.

Fox is the face of competitive melee. Smash in general? Not so much. I'm quite sure when people see Smash, most people will think of Falcon Punch, and that's what most players want to use.

The anime and Double Falcon Punch memes help too.