Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

My pit is a ftilt ***** who walks a lot. Just doing walking ftilts, retreating pivot ftilts and advancing pivot ftilts. I swear puff and wario jump right over the hitbox perfectly though so best off with Nair until you get the fair opportunity. Upperdash is still a KO move and Lucario won't like it in the end.

 

[|RK|]

I'm surprised you'd see it in Pit's favor. The range he eventually gets and the damage he builds is more then Pit can handle. I feel you need the gimp on him or get a good FSmash read otherwise he'll max that aura and take it. And while you can harassas Lucario quite well, his recover becomes insane distance wise, so you need him to hit a blast zone to end it. I have trouble seeing this in Pit's favor, but there is certainly room for me to be proven wrong.

?

Lucario's range stays the same as his damage increases. Especially against characters with reflectors.

 

[Lenus Altair]

?

Lucario's range stays the same as his damage increases. Especially against characters with reflectors.

His Titls/Aerials don't increase in range? Maybe it's all in my head

 

[19_]

I am honestly starting to think mario may be the one of the worse characters as much as I hate to say it. With his customs he becomes dangroussly good at gimping but that's it. Is there any way to use mario's footsies leaving yourself open?

 

[NairWizard]

His Titls/Aerials don't increase in range? Maybe it's all in my head

No, the range on Lucario's normals is pitiful and never changes. That's one of the reasons that he isn't broken, imo (the other being his new recovery). When Pikachu is outranging your tilts, you have a serious problem (though Pikachu outranges a lot of people with up-tilt and d-tilt).

His smashes do become valid substitute normals for his tilts at higher percents, though, because they deal too much shieldstun to simply block, and spotdodging is a death sentence if you mess up, but such is the matchup against a high-risk, high-reward character.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think it's funny that Lucario's best ranged option in Side-B (not counting Aura Sphere) can be full stage reflected/caped to kill him. That's really REALLY entertaining to me for a lot of reasons.

His range is his weakness and I think it's fair given Aura + KB buffs and rage considered.

 

[|RK|]

I think it's funny that Lucario's best ranged option in Side-B (not counting Aura Sphere) can be full stage reflected/caped to kill him. That's really REALLY entertaining to me for a lot of reasons.

His range is his weakness and I think it's fair given Aura + KB buffs and rage considered.

Yup. And as much as people complain about FP Grab, you need to be really ****ing close in order to even get it off. Against characters with capes/reflectors/absorption, you really need to accept Lucario's standard range (which is garbage) more than in any other matchup.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think it's funny that Lucario's best ranged option in Side-B (not counting Aura Sphere) can be full stage reflected/caped to kill him. That's really REALLY entertaining to me for a lot of reasons.

His range is his weakness and I think it's fair given Aura + KB buffs and rage considered.

Wait, the Force Palm flare thing can be reflected?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wait, the Force Palm flare thing can be reflected?

I've caped it online in For Glory, I can go find the replay if you'd like. It's quite entertaining, yes. I'll have to revert to 1.0.3 and ghettocam it, but you can test it yourself, it can be caped and reflected.

it's why Lucario vs. Fox is probably suffering in all honesty. Or even Falco, hell, especially Falco lol.

 

[|RK|]

Wait, the Force Palm flare thing can be reflected?

Mmhm. That's another thing that I notice from playing online w/ randoms and non-randoms - many people don't seem to know that. It's a projectile through and through. Villager can pocket it, Rosalina can dispel it, etc.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You can cape Robs dair in 1.03 at least and I wondered if his b-air and usmash were the same.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Whelp. I've been off in lala land then. Still, he hurts. And Pits reflector is... eh...

Guess I'll ahve to play in his face more! Or Ftilt range. yeah...that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I am honestly starting to think mario may be the one of the worse characters as much as I hate to say it. With his customs he becomes dangroussly good at gimping but that's it. Is there any way to use mario's footsies leaving yourself open?

Fast Fireballs and Gust Cape are significant buffs to Mario's midrange options, though they do extremely low damage, so mostly you'll be abusing them to refresh Mario's other moves and force people to limit their mobility options.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well then, it looks like I'll have to visit training mode. This sounds highly entertaining.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I've caped Lucario's Force Palm before. It was hilarious. The fact that I did it offline and the Lucario player had this aghast expression after nearly getting KOed by it made it that much better.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

rosalina was a bad mu for pit? i dunno killing luma with one f tilt so it can die off stage was so painfully easy. and we all know what happens to rosa when shes in dissadvantage without luma.

 

[Lenus Altair]

rosalina was a bad mu for pit? i dunno killing luma with one f tilt so it can die off stage was so painfully easy. and we all know what happens to rosa when shes in dissadvantage without luma.

Sounds like you played bad Rosas.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Sounds like you played bad Rosas.

perhaps but i look for majority of my battles on the boards or anther ladder. and i dunno generally extreame range pressure still give rosa problems considering that gravity pull is a very punishable and laggy move. but perhaps im just gud at aiming my arrows i even killed people at high percents with fully charged arrows when they were in magnifiying glass.

by the way. extreamly satisfying.

 

[Lenus Altair]

perhaps but i look for majority of my battles on the boards or anther ladder. and i dunno generally extreame range pressure still give rosa problems considering that gravity pull is a very punishable and laggy move. but perhaps im just gud at aiming my arrows i even killed people at high percents with fully charged arrows when they were in magnifiying glass.

by the way. extreamly satisfying.

I agree Pit's arrows are still useful against her, but killing Luma against a good Rosa is not "painfully easy" becuase Pit has Ftilt, like you say IMO. It still a commitment that, as a pupper character, she can take advantage of unles your strike both of them. Smarter Rosas keep there Lumas on a tighter leash overall so it's not free to knock the little star away.

 

[g0rilla]

What do you guys the about Falcon?
He has:

• An amazing, all-around tool in his Uair.
• A great jab
• Good tilts
• Powerful meteors in Dair, Utilt and aerial sideB
• Many strong (though somewhat laggy) KO moves such as Fsmash, Upsmash, SideB and Knee
• A pretty good recovery, especially with no ledge hogging
• INSANELY Disrespectful and iconic taunts
• Great color palletes
• Great combos
• Great d throw with knee or uair followups
• Super fast
• Great dashgrab
• Very fun to play as

 

[DavemanCozy]

Pit's arrows are why I think he should be no lower than ~top 15 (high). I personally think he's underrated right now by the tier lists I've seen, however silly they might be, as pointed out they represent popular opinion of certain communities. Yeah, he has to commit with some of his moves, and he will have to use said moves eventually if he wants to get that KO. But holy cow, his arrows are one of the best projectiles in the game, ultimately why I think Dark Pit is worse even though electro-shock arm is sexier.

 

[slimjim]

Pit's arrows are why I think he should be no lower than ~top 15 (high). I personally think he's underrated right now by the tier lists I've seen, however silly they might be, as pointed out they represent popular opinion of certain communities. Yeah, he has to commit with some of his moves, and he will have to use said moves eventually if he wants to get that KO. But holy cow, his arrows are one of the best projectiles in the game, ultimately why I think Dark Pit is worse even though electro-shock arm is sexier.

What I want to know: Why is Nairo using Dark Pit over Pit unless he knows something we don't? Nairo isn't one to play a worse but similar character for no reason. If there really are only 4 differences between them, being Pit has better arrows and a better Side-B, but Dark Pit is edgy and has a Hispanic skin, then ???

 

[DavemanCozy]

What I want to know: Why is Nairo using Dark Pit over Pit unless he knows something we don't? Nairo isn't one to play a worse but similar character for no reason. If there really are only 4 differences between them, being Pit has better arrows and a better Side-B, but Dark Pit is edgy and has a Hispanic skin, then ???

That's a good question. He probably:
a) Prefers how Dark Pit plays with his moveset (likely related to knowing something we don't),
b) He's into the edgy hispanic angels from Lucifer
c) Both of the above

Dark Pit is still good, even if I do think Pit is better. Both are pretty comparable, I'd say they're the closest "clone" characters in terms of how they can perform in tourneys.

 

[Esquire]

What I want to know: Why is Nairo using Dark Pit over Pit unless he knows something we don't? Nairo isn't one to play a worse but similar character for no reason. If there really are only 4 differences between them, being Pit has better arrows and a better Side-B, but Dark Pit is edgy and has a Hispanic skin, then ???

The only reason I can think of why to use Dark Pit over Pit is that Dark Pit's arrows are more akin to a traditional projectile with some slight bend. It may eat away at shields more than Pit's arrows due to higher damage, and since the trajectory is mostly horizontal, it may promote jumping as the best means of avoiding them as opposed to Pit's arrows, which can catch jumping opponents. Forcing opponents into the air could be good against certain match-ups. Not sure if it helps against (Dark) Pit's hardest MU's though...

Electroshock Arm might also be better for placing characters in a position to be gimped, since diagonal trajectory forces people to recover horizontally.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Electroshock has more potential for offstage armor kills if you're willing to risk it. Example, If they aim horizontally for the ledge, electroshock.

 

[_Malal]

What I want to know: Why is Nairo using Dark Pit over Pit unless he knows something we don't? Nairo isn't one to play a worse but similar character for no reason. If there really are only 4 differences between them, being Pit has better arrows and a better Side-B, but Dark Pit is edgy and has a Hispanic skin, then ???

He's answered this on stream before, electroshock/upper dash don't make enough of difference for him and Arrows do more damage on hit

 

[Kofu]

You can cape Robs dair in 1.03 at least and I wondered if his b-air and usmash were the same.

I tested this and couldn't get it to work. At what point of the move do you cape?

 

[slimjim]

He's answered this on stream before, electroshock/upper dash don't make enough of difference for him and Arrows do more damage on hit

Thanks, I don't get to watch his stream often. I understand the first point, but Pit's arrows are so good off-stage that theoretically they should more than compensate for any damage benefit that Dark Pit's arrows would have. Interesting choice Nairo, interesting choice.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Pit's arrows being good offstage is nice and all but Dark Pit can jump off (and so can Pit) and gimp a lot too without them. Don't get me wrong they're great interrupts but, there's more efficient ways to do it. Granted the risk is higher but I guess I can see where Nairo is coming from.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I tested this and couldn't get it to work. At what point of the move do you cape?

I didn't break it down. I had it happen thrice and specifically put 1.03 given that's the last time I played Mario. Always by the ledge if it makes a difference.
Unless the cape itself could spike and I know it can't. Its the D-air.

I don't think pit vs dark pit is significant enough to make match up differences. However I still say Pit is more efficient with the minir differences.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

as a pit main i only go deep with recoverys that either have no hit box or very short hit box that i can out range. if im facing marth ima just arrow gimp or spur an un safe early up b i can punish
any body else with similar hit box recoverys like marth, peach, ike ect ima use arrows. but as dark pit i cant put that kinda pressure safely witch is anpther reason i dont use him. but i cant wait for dark pit to be luigified next intallment.
if i want a straight projectile i would preffer if he just shot a bolt from his dark pit staff. that would be neat.

 

[Yonder]

What do you guys the about Falcon?
He has:

• An amazing, all-around tool in his Uair.
• A great jab
• Good tilts
• Powerful meteors in Dair, Utilt and aerial sideB
• Many strong (though somewhat laggy) KO moves such as Fsmash, Upsmash, SideB and Knee
• A pretty good recovery, especially with no ledge hogging
• INSANELY Disrespectful and iconic taunts
• Great color palletes
• Great combos
• Great d throw with knee or uair followups
• Super fast
• Great dashgrab
• Very fun to play as

He's the most overplayed thing in for Glory by miles. Yep, more than Mac, Sheik, ZSS. Believe it.

He's solid though. The scariest thing about him is how early the Side B can kill. You can just barely survive around 80%. He's pretty simple to combo though due to large frame + fall speed. Feels like a Melee character though movement speed wise which is cool. He's prone to projectiles, although he can can around a few due to speed.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Here's the results of the /r/smashbros monthly voted tier list!
​

Just a quick reminder, this list is obviously not perfectly accurate. This is a way to see what the general masses think of each character and to encourage character discussion on /r/smashbros. I'll be comparing this to last month's results for those interested.

If you want check out the results thread on /r/smashbros where we'll have discussion topics for each character. They're a great way to talk about how to play as/against characters and explain character strengths/weaknesses.

Without further ado, here we go!!!

S Tier:

(+8) (±0) (-2) (-1)

A TIER:

(+1) (-2) (0) (+4) (-3)

B Tier:

(-1) (-1) (+16) (+14) (+2)

C+ Tier:
(+2) (-3) (-3) (+2) (+6) (+11)

C Tier:

(-2)(+2)(±0)(+8)(-13) (-8) (-5) (+2) (+14)

D Tier:

(+3) (+9) (+18) (-8) (-1) (-1) (-8) (+1)

E Tier:

(-18) (-3) (-3) (+10) (+6) (+2) (1)

F Tier:
(-4)(±0)(-7)(-3)(-16)(-2)(±0)


Things of note:

• Obviously Captain Falcon got voted up really high purely from popularity, especially on /r/smashbros.
• Some characters made MASSIVE jumps. Public perception of these characters could have been heavily influenced by the recent patch.
• Tournament results may have moved some of these guys up/down as well.
• No one thinks Mii Swordfighter is good.

Thoughts everyone?

Why is Mario so high on the list? There is no reason for him to be that high

I also dont get why Palutena is so low either. I think she's pretty decent.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Why is Mario so high on the list? There is no reason for him to be that high

I also dont get why Palutena is so low either. I think she's pretty decent.

Mario: combo game is real
Palutena: Lag + Huge hitbox = sucky character. I agree she should be higher than donkey kong, but she's clearly lower tier.

My personaly thoughts:

Why is C the only tier that is split?

Why is Kirby so low? It's strictly average and after the patch, one of the few characters aerial approaching a la Melee works without mindless punishing. If not being hugely outclassed by Mario, I'd argue as high as C+

How is Olimar not F?

Lucario for S, you know he's too good.

ZSS is probably too high still. Back before camping was everywhere, nobody knew how to beat her, but since glaring flaws like mediocre KO options weaken her viability imo. I rate her about the same level as Sonic and Fox.

And finally, Gandorf mid tier? The brawl fan inside me just committed suicide.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Mario: combo game is real
Palutena: Lag + Huge hitbox = sucky character. I agree she should be higher than donkey kong, but she's clearly lower tier.

Luigi's and Doc's combo game is far better than Mario's. Not to mention that Mario has trouble killing as well as having a bad recovery...I'm just not seeing him being A tier.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

And finally, Gandorf mid tier? The brawl fan inside me just committed suicide.

Ganon is much better this game. His approach, grab and kill options are much more solid this time around. A mid tier placement is fine for him right now, but, in the future, I see him being close to high tier.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ganon is much better this game. His approach, grab and kill options are much more solid this time around. A mid tier placement is fine for him right now, but, in the future, I see him being close to high tier.

Quick concurring thought:

I think a lot of people misunderstood why Ganon was so poor in Brawl, misattributing flaws and ignoring suppressed strengths. This is causing him to be commonly misevaluated by a lot of people based on incorrect theorycraft.

 

[NairWizard]

Mario: combo game is real
Palutena: Lag + Huge hitbox = sucky character. I agree she should be higher than donkey kong, but she's clearly lower tier.

1) Mario's combo game is not real at all, you can DI out of most combos except for d-throw to up-b. Up-tilt x2 is guaranteed on big characters

2) Palutena doesn't have a huge hurtbox (which is what I assume you mean by hitbox). It's standard. It's not small, like Kirby/Pikachu/etc., but it certainly isn't big. Big would be....Rosalina and Ganondorf, maybe Ike (he's pretty tall if I remember correctly). Biggest would be DK, Dedede, Donkey Kong, and Bowser.

3) What lag? You mean on her tilts? You don't need f-tilt at all. Just use jab: it's disjointed, starts on frame 8, and has good range. It can also be followed up by grab or f-smash (jab 1 knocks the opponent toward you). F-tilt isn't a completely dead move regardless, though; pivot f-tilt covers just about everything your opponent could do and you can't be punished for it. The others... D-tilt isn't very laggy at all for what it does (way better than f-tilt and up-tilt), and you should only be using your up-tilt to catch landings anyway.

Her normals are only bad if you use them incorrectly. If you stick to SH (autocanceled) f-airs, bairs, dash attacks, Autoreticle, jabs, grabs, and the occasional d-tilt, you have a solid ground game. Consider that standard Palutena has access to Reflect Barrier as well: with that, what characters are actually beating her in neutral? Most characters' jabs and many f-tilts lose to or clash with her jab, she has twice the grab range of most characters (it's like Zelda range), her walk/dash speed is like 10th best in the game (which is very good), her dash attack is invincible, so it beats out almost every option an opponent could throw out (including projectiles and antiairs), and b-air is also invincible so SH b-airs just shut down many aerial approaches (like Ness' f-air, which would otherwise outrange Palutena).

Sword characters like Shulk and Ike have a decent shot at beating her in neutral, but her dash attack can power through their SH/FH aerials and jabs, and her jab beats theirs in close range (for some reason they use their fists for their jab 1s). Pit and Marth are probably good candidates too. Outside of them, the toughest are probably Sheik, Rosalina, and Little Mac. I'm not fully sold on Sheik, though. Palutena can usually grab Sheik before Sheik grabs her, and her jab is good against Sheik's f-tilt and d-tilt. She can also Reflect needles with little worry. It's only Sheik's f-air which is kind of annoying.

Rosalina is an interesting case. If this is with customs off then Luma Shot almost always gets Reflect Barrier'd. If Rosalina tries to n-air you can up-smash her/Luma usually. B-air consumes Luma in its vortex of invincibility. Dash attack isn't bad either for that though you'll probably get hit if Rosalina is close. The patch nerfed the Luma hitting you out of a throw animation thing so you can actually go for d-throw now, so grab is a great option in neutral.

Up to 3-5 characters beat Palutena in neutral. I think everyone else loses or ties. Duck Hunt, Megaman, Link, Samus, and projectile characters super lose, and she beats characters like Ness, Greninja, Jigglypuff (use up-smash liberally, it's a great anti-air, and your b-air always wins period), Pikachu, and Diddy (Reflect Barrier is legitimately sick against Diddy; if he side-bs the pushback is just enough for him to narrowly miss you and be open, and banana gets reflected, so there go all of his options, and if he dashes toward you you can just grab him first with your superior grab range, or just jab since attacks beat grabs now, though for all of this you need to have good spacing).

Palutena is probably upper mid or lower high tier with standard sets. She doesn't dominate anyone but projectile characters, but she doesn't struggle in any matchups either, winning neutral against many.

That tier list is non-customs, or else she would probably be top 5 on it, because customs-on makes her ridiculous.

edit: Ganondorf's neutral game is pretty good, surprisingly. You wouldn't think that it'd be any good, but it is. He's basically like a sword character. I have had legitimate difficulty facing off with Ganon in neutral. However, his disadvantaged state is still pretty bad. He's big, and he's slow, and his anti-combo options are all big commits (d-air, Wizard's Kick). If he had a n-air interrupt I'd call Ganon for Top Tier, personally.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Ganon is much better this game. His approach, grab and kill options are much more solid this time around. A mid tier placement is fine for him right now, but, in the future, I see him being close to high tier.

Especially after last patch.
Man is truly fearsome.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ganon is sick in doubles, too.

Smooth Criminal