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Character Competitive Impressions

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ChronoPenguin

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So, how good do you all think Lucario really is? People seem pretty comfortable putting him in the top 8 because rage + aura is pretty broken and his recovery is way buffed from Brawl, but I haven't seen anyone doing anything remarkable with him in tournaments yet.

Though I feel like he'll certainly be high tier, I'm curious if he's actually top 8 material. I am starting to feel like those claims are somewhat unfounded at this point.
The problem of Lucario isn't being unbeatable or anything like that. A lot of characters "deal" with him. The problem is he gets one ****ing hit and you are dead it is absurd. Can't count him out because well he needs 3 hits basically and you are in kill range, this while having strong recov, range, and decent speed on quite a few attacks.

I just want to reiterate that I feel Lucario is all about rage + aura being stupid. You can box the hell out of Lucario and keep doing so but he got a little side damage during that now lands one aura hit and you die at 65%. Pretty much everyone can deal with him though. I don't think his lack of dominant matchups matters though given how little reads he needs to win a game.
 
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LostinpinK

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Lucario's competitive problem is that, as far as I know, he's getting wrecked by Rosalina. Other than that, his aura is so ridiculous that I can see him top 8, but lower than DDK / Rosalina / Sheik / Zss.

I believe that Mega man is viable for the reasons you mentionned, but he's certainly not top tier. He's the kind of character on which you can work really hard to become mid tier, but not really higher. He'll have some horrible matchups, I'd wager.
 
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SFP, i'd like to know your reasoning behind the placements for Peach, Falco, Palutena and Pit. I feel as though the first 3 are too high, and the last character is too low.
First, don't assume I'm something I'm not. I'm a tournament player but I haven't been active in a good region in a very long time and I'm not even close to being a top player. Events here where I live now are very small and my first-hand experience is considerably out of date. I have been playing competitive smash for a long time but i hvaen't been active in large tournaments for a couple of years. Cool? OK.


So Peach:

I've talked about her a lot in this thread, but since I placed her SO high up I think I should talk about it a little more.

Peach is disgusting.

In Brawl, her problems were that she lacked the ability to pressure in a meaningful way after an opponent was sufficiently damaged. Her best tools for dealing damage were also her best kill moves, so she couldn't really kill either. It was very common for Peach to start with a massive lead and then flail around trying to get kills for a while and then lose anyway. Not pretty. Her other problem was that sword characters just ****ed her up; she lacked tools that covered her and she's kind of a big target + her airdodge was trash, so it was pretty easy for characters with big disjoints to knock her around. While this weakness is somewhat intact, the sword characters themselves are just worse in exactly the areas Peach had trouble with in the first place.

Smash 4 Peach lost some of her early combo potential, although she still has some. Her float pressure is just as brutal. Notably, her kill moves now kill much earlier and her turnips do a little more damage across the board. What this means is that her kill moves (notably fair, which I'll talk about in a second) are no longer stale when it comes time to kill, which they now do better and earlier than ever.

It's also just really hard to avoid her fair. It's massive and disjointed, on par with or better than several characters with actual swords. If Peach puts you in the air with a throw or something else, it can be absolutely terrifying, especially if you're in the 90-110% damage range.

Peach builds damage fast, kills early, pressures defensive options like no tomorrow, has amazing out of shield options, and decent recovery. She does lack mobility, something I think could be a problem for her if she's behind in a very campy match-up. But otherwise I think she's just as good as Rosalina, Diddy, and whoever else. Very strong character.

Palutena:

I think people kinda jumped the gun in saying she was bad early on, but other than that, she can fly forever and her aerials are really hard to deal with, so... welp.

Falco:

Super underrated. Great footsies, solid recovery for the first time ever, high damage on some very safe ground moves, an incredible back air for spacing and off-stage play with good jumps to match, big hitboxes. Just solid as hell.

Pit:

It's worth noting that I think Pit is viable and pretty good. I have him where I do because I'm not AS impressed with what he brings to the table. His projectile is pretty easy to get around to be honest, and he seems to struggle to kill without a hard read. His strengths and weaknesses seem largely to be the same as they were in brawl where he was above average but not really good enough to make an impact. In Smash 4 I think he can, but it's not because he got a lot better, it's because top tier got a lot worse.
 
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Thinkaman

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My tier list:

High:
A: :4sheik::4diddy::rosalina::4lucario::4peach:
A-: :4sonic::4fox::4yoshi::4falco::4greninja::4miibrawl::4zss:
B: :4pikachu::4ness::4littlemac::4bowser::4palutena:

MID
B-: :4wario::4falcon::4duckhunt::4villager::4robinm::4pit::4darkpit::4marth::4shulk::4jigglypuff::4rob::4charizard::4gaw::4pacman:
C: :4dk::4lucina::4myfriends::4ganondorf::4dedede::4kirby::4wiifit::4bowserjr::4tlink::4miigun::4metaknight:
C-: :4zelda::4megaman::4mario::4samus:

LOW
D: :4olimar::4miisword::4luigi::4link:

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, SAKURAI?:
F: :4drmario:
I think this is a pretty sound preliminary list.

I think :4wiifit:, :4megaman:, and :4link: could be bumped up a peg; all 3 have meaningful "tools", albeit some better than others. I feel pretty empowered (not at all disadvantaged) when playing :4wiifit: and :4megaman: in the vast majority of matchups. I could buy arguments for :4kirby: and :4luigi: being bumped up too, but I dunno.

Meanwhile, I think :4peach:, :4falco:, :4miibrawl:, and :4pikachu: could be bumped down one. (Just one) I think all of these characters are good and have potential for growth, but I have yet to see the initial results I'd expect to feel the confidence I do about their peers.

And swap :4drmario: with :4olimar: at the low end. Doc isn't awful and does "win when he wins"; Olimar just seems bad.
 

mountain_tiger

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So Peach:

I've talked about her a lot in this thread, but since I placed her SO high up I think I should talk about it a little more.

Peach is disgusting.

In Brawl, her problems were that she lacked the ability to pressure in a meaningful way after an opponent was sufficiently damaged. Her best tools for dealing damage were also her best kill moves, so she couldn't really kill either. It was very common for Peach to start with a massive lead and then flail around trying to get kills for a while and then lose anyway. Not pretty. Her other problem was that sword characters just ****ed her up; she lacked tools that covered her and she's kind of a big target + her airdodge was trash, so it was pretty easy for characters with big disjoints to knock her around. While this weakness is somewhat intact, the sword characters themselves are just worse in exactly the areas Peach had trouble with in the first place.

Smash 4 Peach lost some of her early combo potential, although she still has some. Her float pressure is just as brutal. Notably, her kill moves now kill much earlier and her turnips do a little more damage across the board. What this means is that her kill moves (notably fair, which I'll talk about in a second) are no longer stale when it comes time to kill, which they now do better and earlier than ever.

It's also just really hard to avoid her fair. It's massive and disjointed, on par with or better than several characters with actual swords. If Peach puts you in the air with a throw or something else, it can be absolutely terrifying, especially if you're in the 90-110% damage range.

Peach builds damage fast, kills early, pressures defensive options like no tomorrow, has amazing out of shield options, and decent recovery. She does lack mobility, something I think could be a problem for her if she's behind in a very campy match-up. But otherwise I think she's just as good as Rosalina, Diddy, and whoever else. Very strong character.
Agreed. In fact, I don't think she even lost that much early combo potential, tbh. In Brawl, Dair could usually be SDI'd out of, whereas here, it's not so easy. Also DTilt combos into Fair even at moderately high percents - yay.

Also Turnip Land Cancelling - that **** is ridiculously good.
 

A2ZOMG

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I wish Peach was terrible so she wouldn't be picked up by loud fanboys, actually it would still happen, but then at least they would have less reason to enter competitive discussion. /offtopic

But yeah she definitely comes out ahead in Super Trap And Footsie Bros.
 
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PKNintendo

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Warning Received
This is not about whose tier list is more reputable. It's about this thread not being the place for tier list rating and hypothesizing. I am not insulting anybody, I am trying to help focus discussion and encourage healthy and useful discussion.

If you feel someone's tier list is worthy of discussion, then I fully support it being discussed somewhere. This is not the place for that though, no matter how cool the person is or how controversial or accurate their tier list seems.

We do not have the tools to discuss tier lists in any semblance of depth or constructiveness, so please let's not reduce this thread to that. Reddit is the place for that kind of discussion tbh. There is a lot of actual in depth impressions-based discussion that we could be having here instead, rather than echo chamber speculation and tier list rating.
"Healthy discussion" is completely subjective, and your "we don't have enough tools to discuss this" is a bull****, reductive statement. I'm not looking for the most accurate tier list, but a preliminary view is fine. I got more out of SFP's latest post than the last 2-3 pages of squabbling.

In any case, I'd rather listen to tier list discussion (or to be more specific WHY someone feels why certain characters are good or bad) than listen to someone ***** about character forums being dead. IStop forcing your damn values on others.

And jesus christ... I don't give a damn about what redditers think. I rejoined this site to hear what the best and brightest think, not what random scrubs think.

First, don't assume I'm something I'm not. I'm a tournament player but I haven't been active in a good region in a very long time and I'm not even close to being a top player. Events here where I live now are very small and my first-hand experience is considerably out of date. I have been playing competitive smash for a long time but i hvaen't been active in large tournaments for a couple of years. Cool? OK.
Fair enough. I never explicitly said you were a top player, but I definitely respect your instincts. Your in-depth post is proof of that.
 
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Conda

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"Healthy discussion" is completely subjective, and your "we don't have enough tools to discuss this" is a bull****, reductive statement. I'm not looking for the most accurate tier list, but a preliminary view is fine. I got more out of SFP's latest post than the last 2-3 pages of squabbling.

In any case, I'd rather listen to tier list discussion (or to be more specific WHY someone feels why certain characters are good or bad) than listen to someone ***** about character forums being dead. IStop forcing your damn values on others.

And jesus christ... I don't give a damn about what redditers think. I rejoined this site to hear what the best and brightest think, not what random scrubs think.



Fair enough. I never explicitly said you were a top player, but I definitely respect your instincts. Your in-depth post is proof of that.
No need for hostility. Rules are rules, and this thread tries to avoid tier list back and forths for a very good reason that most of us experienced in this scene are very familiar with by now. It's reductive, nitpicky, and wholly unhelpful to readers.
It's also a derail-heavy topic - someone posts their list, people argue about placement, then someone else posts their list, and we argue about placement again. It's circular and endless - a thread dedicated to tier list rating is a thread that has very little value to readers and the competitive community as a whole.

The point of an actual tier list is statistics. Tier lists by individuals are hypothetical and are simply guessing what statistics may be a year from now. It's gambling, and not constructive conversation. Fun, maybe, but not over and over again.

Also, from the OP:
Any early tier list discussion is BANNED
Tier list rating and hypothesizing is very different from what this thread is for. If you'd rather discuss tier lists, then that's awesome and I support you in that. But again, this is not a tier list speculation thread.
 
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Dark.Pch

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Peach did not lose any early combo potential. She has a lot from 0.
Dair > Dair > Fair.
Dair > Dair > Jump > Turnip Throw >Uair/Up-B.
Dair > Dair > Jump > Uair/Up-B.
Dair > Uptilt spike >Grab > Dthrow > Bair.
Dair > Throw turnip upward > Uptilt.
Dtilt >Upair spike > Grab >Dthrow >Nair.
Dtilt > Nair > Grab > Dthrow > Bair.
Nair/Fair >TLC > Dtilt > Grab > Dthrow > Bair
Nair/Fair >TLC Dtilt > Nair > Grab > Dthrow > bair.
 

PKNintendo

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No need for hostility. Rules are rules mate. From the OP:

Tier list rating and hypothesizing is very different from what this thread is for. If you'd rather discuss tier lists, then that's awesome and I support you in that. But again, this is not a tier list speculation thread.
Nice try.
No, tier lists really are not allowed. However, if you are providing significant amount of information/reason behind your opinions I'll likely let it slide (or if its more like an end note and you make it blatantly obvious its just that).
And you really just don't get it. I'm not looking for a tier list. I'm looking for information. Informed opinions from somewhat knowledgeable players. (This thread is called the Character Competitive Impression thread for a reason). Hence why I don't give a **** if you try to shut down tier discussion from scrubs or nobodies, but I'm furious at the idea of you trying to stamp down meaningful discussion.

But you're welcome to prattle on about how awful" tier lists are with your disingenuous arguments.
 
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Peach did not lose any early combo potential. She has a lot from 0.
Dair > Dair > Fair.
Dair > Dair > Jump > Turnip Throw >Uair/Up-B.
Dair > Dair > Jump > Uair/Up-B.
Dair > Uptilt spike >Grab > Dthrow > Bair.
Dair > Throw turnip upward > Uptilt.
Dtilt >Upair spike > Grab >Dthrow >Nair.
Dtilt > Nair > Grab > Dthrow > Bair.
Nair/Fair >TLC > Dtilt > Grab > Dthrow > Bair
Nair/Fair >TLC Dtilt > Nair > Grab > Dthrow > bair.
Acknowledged that her combo game early is still very good.

But it's not like it was in brawl where a bunch of dairs-> utilt-> fair would be like nearly 70% damage or something. She gets more like 40-50 now. It's still good, though, especially since she kills a lot earlier relative to Brawl.~

the big change was the different kb angle on dair. otherwise it's mostly the same.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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Peach did not lose any early combo potential. She has a lot from 0.
Dair > Dair > Fair.
Dair > Dair > Jump > Turnip Throw >Uair/Up-B.
Dair > Dair > Jump > Uair/Up-B.
Dair > Uptilt spike >Grab > Dthrow > Bair.
Dair > Throw turnip upward > Uptilt.
Dtilt >Upair spike > Grab >Dthrow >Nair.
Dtilt > Nair > Grab > Dthrow > Bair.
Nair/Fair >TLC > Dtilt > Grab > Dthrow > Bair
Nair/Fair >TLC Dtilt > Nair > Grab > Dthrow > bair.
TLC = Tender Loving Care? Hilarious I know but IDK what it actually stands for.
 

MikeyAM

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TLC = Tender Loving Care? Hilarious I know but IDK what it actually stands for.
Turnip lag cancel I think?

Edit: Peach has the same thing with her turnips that link has with bombs where she can cancel aerial lag with a down b turnip throw.
 
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NairWizard

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I think the exchange between Conda and PK Nintendo is evidence enough of why tier lists do more harm than good, but I don't want to further add to the uselessness of posts.

To various people to whom I didn't reply: I don't really want to engage in debate. Rule #2 of being a debater: don't debate. In my experience, people are seldom convinced by debate, but often convinced by mutual exchanges of insight. I appreciate and acknowledge your points in response to mine.

As far as the top-level player thing is concerned...I freely admit to some bias here, because two of my close friends are top-level and high-level in New Jersey (one of the toughest regions historically) and I played a lot with them in the past, but I think that people who are better at the game do have more valid opinions in general. Theory only goes so far: the evidence (people putting the theory to use) substantiates claims.
 
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PKNintendo

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^

Man... talk about a false dilemma. The fact that you're using my argument against Conda to illustrate why tier list discussion is bad is a major logical fallacy. Your rule is also pretty silly; people don't debate because they want to convince their opponents.They debate because they want to convince their audience.

Anyway i'm done. If you guys don't want to ban relevant insight from knowledgeable players than that's whatever. Have fun iterating the same dull points over and over again.

"Mario is a good character!"

"Actually, Mario is actually bottom 5 and here's why"
 
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Signia

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Now that we're talking about Samus, anyone experiment with slow custom projectile zoning with Samus yet? Slow homing missiles and/or slow charge shot seem silly. Tripping bombs and shine spark up-B are also amazing.

Again I'll link Ninjalink, who also featured Aerolink, the original Palutena Super Speed top tier hipster in the Palutena video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st5uGy37Jbw

Slow missiles, like all slow projectiles, allow for delayed but long lasting space control. But you can put three of them on the screen at once, stack homing missiles with smash missiles, and add in a charge shot.

Slow Charge Shot offers both a powered up version and a faster, weaker version of that kind of zoning. Though I think I'd prefer the normal charge shot and pick spots to fire it between all the missiles.

Tripping bombs are as good as normal bombs except they lead to trip combos.

Shine spark looks like an amazing punish and kill move. Reliably killing at 100%, does a wide grounded hitbox that combos into the hard hit in the air, so it's both an anti-air and grounded punish.
 
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TTTTTsd

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I think this is a pretty sound preliminary list.
And swap :4drmario: with :4olimar: at the low end. Doc isn't awful and does "win when he wins"; Olimar just seems bad.
Yeah, your list otherwise seems REALLY accurate IMO! That's actually pretty conducive with how I think about the cast as a whole, glad to see a really good educated list. I'm just glad that even the lowest of low can win and compete atm (as a Doc player I have to be, my char is high-low at BEST)

I also like how you avoided the word "bottom" cause nobody really seems THAT bad, besides maybs Olimar IMO, MAYBE. He could be better in WiiU with 60 FPS pikmin.
 
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Youngril

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Those are some interesting ideas, gives me a lot to think about. Haven't really seen much Ness play, so I can't really comment on the practicality of what you wrote, but in theory it makes sense.

I mained Ganon in Melee, so everything bad about him in Brawl/Smash 4 feels magnified for me.

I've seen some King Dedede players do some really interesting stuff with Gordos. At Fight Pitt V last weekend, tehre was a D3 who was using Yoshi's Island in a really interesting way to make the Gordos bounce around very erratically. I found it very creative. Unfortunately I can't find the videos right now :(
If you're at the Lakefield tourney tommorow I can show you those Ness things, I've been practicing them.
 

Dark.Pch

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I think this is a pretty sound preliminary list.

I think :4wiifit:, :4megaman:, and :4link: could be bumped up a peg; all 3 have meaningful "tools", albeit some better than others. I feel pretty empowered (not at all disadvantaged) when playing :4wiifit: and :4megaman: in the vast majority of matchups. I could buy arguments for :4kirby: and :4luigi: being bumped up too, but I dunno.

Meanwhile, I think :4peach:, :4falco:, :4miibrawl:, and :4pikachu: could be bumped down one. (Just one) I think all of these characters are good and have potential for growth, but I have yet to see the initial results I'd expect to feel the confidence I do about their peers.

And swap :4drmario: with :4olimar: at the low end. Doc isn't awful and does "win when he wins"; Olimar just seems bad.
Peach is rekting the WC right now. SlayerZ won a tornament over there. And the last one he got second losing a close set to tyrants diddy game 5. And I believe those are the only 2 tournies he has entered. I believe he even put M2K down the tourney he won. So there goes your results that you have yet to know about for my character.

Acknowledged that her combo game early is still very good.

But it's not like it was in brawl where a bunch of dairs-> utilt-> fair would be like nearly 70% damage or something. She gets more like 40-50 now. It's still good, though, especially since she kills a lot earlier relative to Brawl.~

the big change was the different kb angle on dair. otherwise it's mostly the same.
What peach gave up on damage, she got in return a death combo that works on nearly the whole roster. Here is a video showcasing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvzl0Z63-AU

One way you can get this off is if your opponent does a laggy move close to you like a dash attack. You can easlily get this out of shield. I usually punish moves with a z drop to footstool dair. Now I will just do it with this.

Another great way I came up with too pull this off is to use the sleepy toad turnip. If I counter your attack, it puts you to sleep. And I can easily get the death combo on you. And I can do this at ANY %. That means if I have a turnip in hand and I block a move or counter you, you die. Peach is dangerous. Only character that can get a death combo for FREE at %.

TLC = Tender Loving Care? Hilarious I know but IDK what it actually stands for.
TLC = Turnip lag cancel. Its a term I came up with. Peach, Toon link and lick can cancel all of their air attacks instantly with a bomb/turnip once they touch the floor. Ann they have to do is hit Down-B when they have it in their hand. So you have no lag from your air attacks. Making your attacks safe on shield. So in Peach's cause I decided to call this term Turnip lag cancel (TLC)
 

PK Gaming

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I think the exchange between Conda and PK Gaming is evidence enough of why tier lists do more harm than good, but I don't want to further add to the uselessness of posts.

To various people to whom I didn't reply: I don't really want to engage in debate. Rule #2 of being a debater: don't debate. In my experience, people are seldom convinced by debate, but often convinced by mutual exchanges of insight. I appreciate and acknowledge your points in response to mine.

As far as the top-level player thing is concerned...I freely admit to some bias here, because two of my close friends are top-level and high-level in New Jersey (one of the toughest regions historically) and I played a lot with them in the past, but I think that people who are better at the game do have more valid opinions in general. Theory only goes so far: the evidence (people putting the theory to use) substantiates claims.
Err, wrong PK

(I have no strong feelings on this matter)
 

Locke 06

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What peach gave up on damage, she got in return a death combo that works on nearly the whole roster. Here is a video showcasing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvzl0Z63-AU
Has this been tested on a knowledgeable opponent trying to escape it? If so... wow. I just don't understand the game design decision to make a forced neutral get up. (same goes for ZSS-Robin infinite)

Edit: I'm not sure about the combo you posted, due to the neutral get up, but this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6pjFKbw3i0&list=TLNZ_ejs0QURA&index=3 - looks inescapable, legit, and deadly.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Has this been tested on a knowledgeable opponent trying to escape it? If so... wow. I just don't understand the game design decision to make a forced neutral get up. (same goes for ZSS-Robin infinite)
I'd like someone to explain to me how dropping slowly to the ground from a footstool isn't techable, and then SLAMMING SOMEONE INTO THE PAVEMENT WITH GREAT FORCE from a meteor Smash in contrast is techable.

From both a thematic and competitive standpoint, it just isn't right.
 

Locke 06

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I'd like someone to explain to me how dropping slowly to the ground from a footstool isn't techable, and then SLAMMING SOMEONE INTO THE PAVEMENT WITH GREAT FORCE from a meteor Smash in contrast is techable.

From both a thematic and competitive standpoint, it just isn't right.
Footstools are thematically funny. Therefore, the opponent should fall on their ass when they hit the ground.
Makes sense to me.
 

TTTTTsd

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I'd like someone to explain to me how dropping slowly to the ground from a footstool isn't techable, and then SLAMMING SOMEONE INTO THE PAVEMENT WITH GREAT FORCE from a meteor Smash in contrast is techable.

From both a thematic and competitive standpoint, it just isn't right.
This is how I feel about meteor cancelling in every Smash game before this lol. "Oh you knocked me down incredibly hard? Let me just, oop, there we go."

Besides that I don't know how easy that combo is to set up but if it's mad free and hella easy, then GGs. I think it takes a lot of effort and execution at the very least (I hope)
 

A2ZOMG

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This is how I feel about meteor cancelling in every Smash game before this lol. "Oh you knocked me down incredibly hard? Let me just, oop, there we go."

Besides that I don't know how easy that combo is to set up but if it's mad free and hella easy, then GGs. I think it takes a lot of effort and execution at the very least (I hope)
The main difficulty is setting up the combo from Peach, so overall it doesn't really revolutionize the character. Just whining that this kind of exploit would have been really easy to avoid with actually intuitive mechanic changes. I mean, I don't think anybody thinks meteor ground bounce/knockdown combos are broken...but for some god forsaken reason, they're techable.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Yeah I understand on that regard, really messes with Falcon stomp but then again that's pretty laggy.

I just wonder if Nintendo will actually ever do a REAL Balance patch for this game, probably once the WiiU version is out for further testing I suppose.
 

Dark.Pch

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That thing is not easy to execute. I have to practices for hours and days to get this down. Also the timing for each character are different. So no it is not easy to do. And I explain way Peach to get this off. I have reset players with nairs and they try to smash something to get up. From what I heard, they are helpless.

And asfor you @ A2ZOMG A2ZOMG , You can NOT tech a footstool in this game. It was the same in brawl.
 

Thinkaman

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Non-techable meteors-on-floors (grounded or aerial) with fixed bounce hitstun is the only major mechanical change I want done to Smash 4. (Maybe also trade rage for a better, simpler mechanic of the same general function, like "slightly exponential knockback above 100%".)

I just wonder if Nintendo will actually ever do a REAL Balance patch for this game, probably once the WiiU version is out for further testing I suppose.
Yeah, while I wouldn't mind bug fixes whenever they arrive, real balance tweaks should wait until well after the WiiU launch.

I don't want the game balanced exclusively around 3DS controls.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Yeah I understand on that regard, really messes with Falcon stomp but then again that's pretty laggy.

I just wonder if Nintendo will actually ever do a REAL Balance patch for this game, probably once the WiiU version is out for further testing I suppose.
when you say balance what do you propose? more luma respawn time? freefall bouning fish? needle lag?

on further note i would not want a balance patch where falcos lazers shot faster it be too mch wit the new foung hit stun they have.
 

A2ZOMG

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And asfor you @ A2ZOMG A2ZOMG , You can NOT tech a footstool in this game. It was the same in brawl.
That's exactly what I said...and assuming Nintendo actually will bother to change mechanics in the game later, it just isn't right along with actual meteors in fact being techable.
 

Thinkaman

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when you say balance what do you propose? more luma respawn time? freefall bouning fish? needle lag?
I'm gonna be That Guy and throw red flags everywhere, so Shaya doesn't have to. This train of thought has the potential to get rapidly off-topic really fast; for purposes of this thread let's keep focused on the game today, rather than hypotheticals.

Does anyone suspect there are any 8-2 or worse matchups? I haven't found any I'd label that far yet.
 

A2ZOMG

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I'm gonna be That Guy and throw red flags everywhere, so Shaya doesn't have to. This train of thought has the potential to get rapidly off-topic really fast; for purposes of this thread let's keep focused on the game today, rather than hypotheticals.

Does anyone suspect there are any 8-2 or worse matchups? I haven't found any I'd label that far yet.
Yeah, I don't think there's 8/2 matchups. Even on default settings strictly. Though there's some 7/3s that are made not nearly as awful with customs.
 

Locke 06

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I'm gonna be That Guy and throw red flags everywhere, so Shaya doesn't have to. This train of thought has the potential to get rapidly off-topic really fast; for purposes of this thread let's keep focused on the game today, rather than hypotheticals.

Does anyone suspect there are any 8-2 or worse matchups? I haven't found any I'd label that far yet.
Sorry, I just found the highlighted parts of this post funny.

I have in my book, 8-2 for default Mega Man vs default Puff, but that's mostly based off of my personal experience and looking at movesets/data. Mega Man's Bair outranges hers, she doesn't have an answer for the lemon wall, her grab game doesn't lead into anything so shielding is pretty safe, she gets killed at 63% by mega upper, and it's really hard for her to edge guard Mega Man due to his ability to DJ after rush.

8-2 might be a stretch... but kind of feels that way to me.
 
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ChronoPenguin

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I feel like Shulk will eventually **** on every heavy except for DDD.
One read and power counter means you are dead

Like ganondorf, bowser, dk, ike? I can kill you at 30% off a simple attack. It's not time now but I could see these evolving to 8-2.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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I feel like Shulk will eventually **** on every heavy except for DDD.
One read and power counter means you are dead

Like ganondorf, bowser, dk, ike? I can kill you at 30% off a simple attack. It's not time now but I could see these evolving to 8-2.
dunno dk has got some options man
 
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