Character Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

Sounds like Akuma from Street Fighter 4 kinda.

hahahahaha

........

ah ****

VORTEX FOR DAYS

And JR wasn't the best Gouki player ever, but he was definitely one of the greats. Always a pleasure watching him wreck house in 3S.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kofu]

Destroying the tree isn't easy either since it hits you back lol

But yeah at least you can shoot projectiles at it or something.
The sapling comes out from the first down B as well so basically at any time Villager can just be like "This spot is mine now. If you enter it you die."

I haven't messed around with Timber Counter much (tbh I haven't had much chance to work with many custom moves) but it's important to know that the tree itself can only take 15% damage, and the move that pushes it past that threshold is not countered. tl;dr, any move that does at least 15% to the tree is safe to use to kill it. Of course, that can leave you open to a counterattack from Villager himself if the move isn't quick enough.

The sapling, however, is another matter altogether. Acting like a fixed but indestructible banana is amazing, especially since Villager is, IMO, one of the best characters at playing the anti-air game between his aerials, USmash, and UTilt.

I did miss the ledge trapping potential and the raw force that normal Timber and its axe gave in my brief test of Counter Timber, though.

 

[Tagxy]

F-smash and U-smash, his best KO moves can't really be set up into for the most part outside of generic land trapping, so I do believe his KO problems are pretty noticeable.

And it's not like he's unhittable. It's just that the risk of trying to actually hit him if he's playing really carefully and mixing up his options is just stupid.

Thunder 2 as well. And thats how pikachu (actually almost everyone) landed KOs in Brawl, hes one of the best in the game at setting up those situations and his tools for it are even better this time. Plus I believe fair to usmash may link. If you suspect pikachu wont be landing kills until something like dash attack can kill I promise his metagame will not develop that way, those moves are just icing for anyone who attempts to drag things out too long with pika.

And I disagree. Pikachus defense has historically been terrible and Im not sure whats supposed to change it this time. If you sit back and let him camp then yeah he can take advantage of that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thunder 2 as well. And thats how pikachu (actually almost everyone) landed KOs in Brawl, hes one of the best in the game at setting up those situations and his tools for it are even better this time. Plus I believe fair to usmash may link. If you suspect pikachu wont be landing kills until something like dash attack can kill I promise his metagame will not develop that way, those moves are just icing for anyone who attempts to drag things out too long with pika.

And I disagree. Pikachus defense has historically been terrible and Im not sure whats supposed to change it this time. If you sit back and let him camp then yeah he can take advantage of that.

There's basically no Mach Tornado in this game to stop Pikachu from going where he pleases, so...tell me how you're supposed to actually approach this character. Keeping in mind he is one of the smallest targets in the game, has good run speed, good disjoints, very resistant to crossovers, and this throw reward is noticeably above average. I would say defensively he's one of the most obnoxious characters in the game arguably simply because there really isn't a way to pin him down and because he actually has very good attacks that have to be respected.

 

[san.]

JIgglypuff.

I've barely used her in Smash 4, but I didn't need to. She transferred perfectly from Brawl for me. I believe some of her largest weaknesses from Brawl were fixed, having played her at a high/top level (self-proclaimed).

Other than her weight, there were 2 things that greatly hindered her:
-Trades were globally harmful for her and she traded a LOT
-Her spacing moves were also her kill moves, resorting to odd moves like dash attack

In Smash 4, she seems to win most trades outside of the heavies with high % per hit. Her bair will kill even when staled a bit. Fancy Brawl-style combo strings are even easier in smash 4, especially since her air->ground->air transitions a lot more smoothly with usable tilts and jabs this time around. She also keeps all of her lingering hitboxes in a game where such a perk is fundamentally buffed.

She does seem to be surprisingly subject to combos and juggles herself this time around since she can't abuse air dodge + maneuvering near the ground anymore, and rage hurts her more than it helps. I'm still not buying rest gimmicks, too, even though it's usable now.

 

[Conda]

Toon Link's customs are great - short fuse bombs can be used like Kamikaze explosives, as you can pull one and shield/roll/spotdodge/airdodge and you emit a massive explosion.
Fire Arrows are game changing for this character, and offer a whole new tool to develop a playstyle around. Love it.

Samus's customs are the same - slow moving missiles and the slow charge shot gives Samus some cover and open up options.

I haven't been able to find too much discussion on either.

We've been a little blind about Falco for the past month, glad to see people are moving past the 'his laser and spike are worse now' train and are seeing him for what he is now. The same might be the case for Samus, but again she's not that popular and I haven't been able to find much on her.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm having a bit of trouble parsing this, specifically the "Villager-aligned" part. Can you explain further?

Also, I can't tell from your description if the tree actually hurts Villager or if it just pops out a hitbox that Villager can exploit if the opponent is near the tree.

It can't hurt Villager, it's strictly his hitbox regardless of what triggered it.

 

[AvariceX]

There's basically no Mach Tornado in this game to stop Pikachu from going where he pleases, so...

Jumbo Hoop might be the best character in the game

Nah but really I'm just recently starting to see how drastically customs redefine almost every character and a lot of my previous impressions of characters have been flipped upside down. This game is gonna take a long time to figure out. A couple days ago I thought Ike was terrible, after seeing proper use of his customs I don't think he's bad at all (still not great probably).

 

[HeavyLobster]

Jumbo Hoop might be the best character in the game

Nah but really I'm just recently starting to see how drastically customs redefine almost every character and a lot of my previous impressions of characters have been flipped upside down. This game is gonna take a long time to figure out. A couple days ago I thought Ike was terrible, after seeing proper use of his customs I don't think he's bad at all (still not great probably).

Absolutely. With customs enabled, there aren't really any useless characters, and there's a lot of room to experiment. I feel like bottom tier in this game isn't actually bad, and probably is about as viable as Sheik/Sonic/Ike level characters in Brawl. You also have to remember that most players will only really be able to learn high-tier matchups in any depth due to the size of the roster(and usually only commonly used builds at that), so expect to see a lot of upsets due to a lack of matchup knowledge. The high tiers will obviously still have better results, but there looks to be a lot more room for mid to low tier mains to do damage in tourneys than in previous games. I also suspect that the same will apply to unconventional but effective custom builds that completely change a character's playstyle. Being able to adapt on the fly will be big early on as we try to figure this game out.

 

[RageCage]

I've had a lot of success as Diddy Kong. (Don't know if there's been discussion on him cause I don't wanna scroll through this entire thread)

• His aerials have great range and a lot of power.
• That f-smash is a solid kill move.
• A lot of his game benefits from being able to cling to the wall. A few characters can do this, but Diddy Kong's aerials work so well in tandem with clinging to the wall that edge-guarding is safe and effective (if done right).
• Also, with the wall cling, his recovery is damn near 100% perfect. Even without a wall it's really good.
• Everybody says he's been nerfed because of his banana move. It only drops one at a time now, and is destroyed upon contact. But I haven't even found a need for them. Not part of my strategy personally.

While I do actually think he was best in Project M (almost entirely due to L-cancelling) he is still a solid character.

 

[AvariceX]

I've had a lot of success as Diddy Kong. (Don't know if there's been discussion on him cause I don't wanna scroll through this entire thread)

• His aerials have great range and a lot of power.
• That f-smash is a solid kill move.
• A lot of his game benefits from being able to cling to the wall. A few characters can do this, but Diddy Kong's aerials work so well in tandem with clinging to the wall that edge-guarding is safe and effective (if done right).
• Also, with the wall cling, his recovery is damn near 100% perfect. Even without a wall it's really good.
• Everybody says he's been nerfed because of his banana move. It only drops one at a time now, and is destroyed upon contact. But I haven't even found a need for them. Not part of my strategy personally.

While I do actually think he was best in Project M (almost entirely due to L-cancelling) he is still a solid character.

Quite a few people consider him a contender for best character in the game. Even if you don't want to look through this thread all at once for one thing, I do recommend reading through it at your own pace if you find the time. There's a lot of fantastic info in here by some of the brightest heads in the community, and it's interesting to see how the perceptions of the game have evolved even in such a short time.

 

[numanumaking13]

How do you guys feel about Peach? I honestly haven't seen too much of her and when I do I feel like she has a bad match-up against Megaman. Thoughts and opinions? I think she could be good but I haven't seen too much game play on her.

 

[NairWizard]

I've had a lot of success as Diddy Kong. (Don't know if there's been discussion on him cause I don't wanna scroll through this entire thread)

• His aerials have great range and a lot of power.
• That f-smash is a solid kill move.
• A lot of his game benefits from being able to cling to the wall. A few characters can do this, but Diddy Kong's aerials work so well in tandem with clinging to the wall that edge-guarding is safe and effective (if done right).
• Also, with the wall cling, his recovery is damn near 100% perfect. Even without a wall it's really good.
• Everybody says he's been nerfed because of his banana move. It only drops one at a time now, and is destroyed upon contact. But I haven't even found a need for them. Not part of my strategy personally.

While I do actually think he was best in Project M (almost entirely due to L-cancelling) he is still a solid character.

Diddy Kong is considered to be one of the top tiers in this game. There's been a lot of hype around him, saying that he's top 3 or top 2, etc.

If you are having success in For Glory that's at least partly because most people don't know how to vector there. I have had a 97-98% winrate as Diddy over several hundred matches, and I don't consider myself a particularly proficient Diddy player. People fall for the d-throw to [stuff] combos way too easily, and the amount of players who simply double jump into the f-air is incredible. Even some of the lower-level tournament players that you will run into on FG will fall for things that they shouldn't. I found some players vectoring my early percent up-throws but then failing to vector my up-throw to up-air at over 150%. The consistency is highly variable. Actually, even in high-level tournaments the very simple Diddy Kong strategy of rolling, shielding, and grabbing seems to wreck a lot of players. As the metagame adapts and changes I believe that this strategy will work less often, though side-b will remain incredible.

If you are having success outside of FG with him, are you running into the following two problems? Not to belittle your success (in fact; congratulations), but just for the sake of understanding where it's coming from, and how you've gotten around the major blockers:

1) Recovery. The up-b has to be charged to be any good, and anyone can drop down n-air you while you're charging it and send you to your doom. The side-b is predictable and you can be hit out of it. Sheik gives Diddy nightmares: she can needle the side-b, and then when he up-bs, she can quickly f-air him (which sends him further than the n-air) or even bouncing fish him since the up-b leaves him completely stationary for a second or two. The wall cling is useful indeed, as are all wall clings. I won't deny that one, but how often can you use it before you get read?

2) Rosalina. Diddy has an abysmally bad matchup vs. Rosalina. The banana (which is an integral part of Diddy's neutral game, by the way; I'm not sure how you get by without using it! maybe you could share: I find myself disadvantaged in approaching certain characters without at least the threat of a banana--that gets the players to shield, which in turn nets me a side-b grab or a regular grab) works against him in this MU (they trip him instead of Rosalina due to GP, and Luma can't trip), and the peanuts are useless thanks to GP as well. Side-b is one of Diddy's most potent tools in neutral due to its unpredictability, and Rosalina can simply shield it--because if Diddy uses the grab variant, Luma will hit him away. All of his aerials get walled out (they aren't particularly fast besides n-air, but they are strong and have decent range...which doesn't matter when you're up against stronger moves with even more range). D-tilt has deceptively bad range and Rosalina's d-tilt makes me want to cry banana-colored tears. If she d-smashes she can d-tilt immediately afterwards with near impunity. Also, Rosalina's floatiness/lightness makes landing combos past 30% on her almost impossible.

I'd go as far as to say that it's one of the worst matchups in the game. You have to be super hyper aggressive to beat a good Rosalina, as you have almost no options in neutral, and your followups aren't that great. And even then it is very tough. At least she can't easily gimp Diddy's recovery.

With that said, I do consider Diddy Kong to be very strong because of his kill moves. But I think the aforementioned problems will keep him out of top tier. What do you think?

 

[InfinityCollision]

How do you guys feel about Peach? I honestly haven't seen too much of her and when I do I feel like she has a bad match-up against Megaman. Thoughts and opinions? I think she could be good but I haven't seen too much game play on her.

If glide tossing was still in I genuinely believe she'd be top tier. As it is I'd say she's high tier with room to grow, turnip tech could make her into a monster. Her kit is fundamentally strong, she can capitalize on several beneficial mechanics (float aerials ignore freshness/staling, she can cancel landing lag with a turnip toss, turnip pull cancels are back, etc), and she still has one of the best projectiles in the game.

 

[Signia]

Man, Marth is GOOD. I KOd a Falcon from the edge of FD at 40% with tippered fsmash. That's absurd.

I can only see him getting better as time goes on especially when Smash Wii U comes out and c-stick aerials come into play. And let's just pray for all our sanity that some sort of Wavedashing mobility bug/trick doesn't get discovered else Marth will shoot right up to top tier.

Hello?

WD back into Fsmash = Perfect Pivot back Fsmash

Run Cancel Fsmash = Run, Turn Cancel Fsmash

Run WD back Fsmash = Foxtrot, PP back Fsmash

Basically, Marth will be able to maneuver to wherever he wants to be and Fsmash for punishments, traps, etc. Perfect Pivot for short distances, Turn Cancel for longer distances. Also, he ranks #1 on the walk speed chart, so that too is a great movement option.

And not only will Marth be able to kill earlier than ever with Fsmash, his classic weakness of being unable kill with other safer moves has largely vanished. Tipped aerials and throws have much more knockback. Non-tipped smashes are also killers past 120%.

Oh and someone was talking about double aerials with side-B? Can't you do SH Fair, side-B?

Also let's not forget that counter and shieldbreaker are real threats, too.

Marth is still a solid pick, but we'll see how he handles some of this game's bull****. I think he's at least a good counterpick to Lucario, being able to kill him before he's enraged.

 

[Shaya]

That comparison seems to be in relation to just melee, right?
Marth's aerials have had their kill power nerfed for the most part. Tipper fair and nair fresh killed, in fact, neutral air tipper was his second strongest move after forward smash in Brawl.

You can do SH fair into side b, but that's landing into it, which has 45 frames of lag rather than 33 when used in the air, there's no point doing it the other way around as you're a lot more option rich just landing on the ground after a short hop forward air. So it's better to sh db1 into another aerial.

I agree that all the movement tools that exist in this game and the numbers he has related to them are all pretty good except his dash length being 16 frames (although more characters this game seem to have them that bad, if not worse, big sore thumb on this is Little Mac who is like a single option character while dashing for way too long for me to think of him as really that good beyond cheesy). I'm not certain if you can pivot fsmash at any point during your dash like you can with ftilt and stuff, but if you can, that's pretty fine/awesome (I would think he could, but anecdotal instances where it looks like i turn around faster isn't conclusive).

 

[Signia]

Yeah, I was comparing to Melee.

You say his dash length is 16 frames? Is that short or long? You're talking about the dash and not the run, right? When you talk about "pivots" are you talking about dash turnaround or running turnaround? Are you using "dash" in two different ways? Either way, you can Fsmash, in either direction, so the dash length doesn't matter too much.

To eliminate confusion, I suggested in the Smash Dictionary thread:

Beginning of the dash where you can dash dance, the initial dash = "dash"
Continue dashing/running = "run"
Tilt movement = "walking"

Turning around during the dash = "pivot"
Turning around during the run = "turn"
Turning around during walking = "turn around"

Releasing direction during dash = "foxtrot"
Releasing direction during run = "skid"
Releasing direction during walk = "idle"

And those are the only grounded states, except the beginning part of the animations "turn," "foxtrot," and "skid" are different than the end part of these animations, in that they have other state transitions.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, it's technically precise to say dash into run. I mean 16 frames from his dash to run to 'free to shield', I guess, so I tend to call that the 'full dash animation'.
His is very slow, was the worst in Brawl (along with Falcon).

Characters like Sheiks in Brawl was 6? or 7 frames. Fox' was 1 frame slower, average was around 12 frames.
From experience, I'd say Falco's is one of the shortest in the game, but I'm not sure how short some of them could be (I haven't extensively played sheik/fox yet).

So I guess I'm asking if it's possible to turn fsmash at any point during your run, which I'm not entirely certain of it's in the same specifics as forward tilting, which seems pretty able to do at any point, while from experience it feels like it's probably the 16 frames minimum before you can do the forward smash (I'm not sure but I think so after some 1/4 training mode testing)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@ Amazing Ampharos makes a compelling argument, but I'm still not sold on Robin's Wind Jab. The amount of times I've seen people get out of it, both in low level and even high level (eg. Xzax vs Vinnie) matches, is sad. Seems like it gets punished half the time too. Then add in how it counts as a use of Elwind, Robin's only recovery move...

The big question is how long the Robin player is holding the rapid jab. A lot of people get greedy with rapid jabs and hold them too long in general (understanding precisely how long to hold rapid jabs is one of those important little skills in this game for applicable characters I feel), but I'm pretty sure Robin's wind jab is good enough you should be able to get a hit or two and consistently get finisher and maybe go for longer hits if you have a read on the situation (you catch them off-guard, you hit them super deep, you have them pinned to a wall or off the edge where they situationally can't escape quickly). I also kinda prefer spending wind tome usage to fire tome usage; wind almost never runs out unless you just get super liberal with it while fire runs out all the time. I know it's worse to run out of wind than fire since wind being out is crisis time, but it's just such a rare thing to happen. Fire jab is pretty great anyway because that third hit is just such a potent hit that makes getting hit by Robin's jab actually a problem for the opponent instead of just a bit of damage; I think both jabs on Robin have a lot of merit and it's all about reading the situation and making the right choice.

I personally have never seen Robin's wind jab get punished on hit; it's hard to imagine unless the Robin player makes a very large miscalculation on how long to hold the jab or if it just wasn't a clean hit in the first place (if you just hit with the absolute tip of the range, a lot of rapid jabs are pretty awful). Do you have any good videos showing these dynamics in action? I don't have any easy way to record smash 3ds and I'm nowhere near a good Robin player anyway (the character is really hard...), but my experience with wind jab (and rapid jabs in general) has been a lot more positive than the common public perception mostly because of how powerful finisher mix-up timing seems to be so it would be interesting to see the other side of that playing out.

 

[Shaya]

Robin's 1-2 seems pretty potent anyway, and the extra range of the third hit and it's speed is something to be feared (can get caught by jabs during shield drops/rolls/etc) so people respect the 1-2 enough to let you get repetitions off of it, or dash attack/grab. Decent range.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

The big question is how long the Robin player is holding the rapid jab. A lot of people get greedy with rapid jabs and hold them too long in general (understanding precisely how long to hold rapid jabs is one of those important little skills in this game for applicable characters I feel), but I'm pretty sure Robin's wind jab is good enough you should be able to get a hit or two and consistently get finisher and maybe go for longer hits if you have a read on the situation (you catch them off-guard, you hit them super deep, you have them pinned to a wall or off the edge where they situationally can't escape quickly). I also kinda prefer spending wind tome usage to fire tome usage; wind almost never runs out unless you just get super liberal with it while fire runs out all the time. I know it's worse to run out of wind than fire since wind being out is crisis time, but it's just such a rare thing to happen. Fire jab is pretty great anyway because that third hit is just such a potent hit that makes getting hit by Robin's jab actually a problem for the opponent instead of just a bit of damage; I think both jabs on Robin have a lot of merit and it's all about reading the situation and making the right choice.

I personally have never seen Robin's wind jab get punished on hit; it's hard to imagine unless the Robin player makes a very large miscalculation on how long to hold the jab or if it just wasn't a clean hit in the first place (if you just hit with the absolute tip of the range, a lot of rapid jabs are pretty awful). Do you have any good videos showing these dynamics in action? I don't have any easy way to record smash 3ds and I'm nowhere near a good Robin player anyway (the character is really hard...), but my experience with wind jab (and rapid jabs in general) has been a lot more positive than the common public perception mostly because of how powerful finisher mix-up timing seems to be so it would be interesting to see the other side of that playing out.

Admittedly I can't find any other than this (must have remembered wrong):

My eyes could be deceiving me, but I think Robin hadn't fully recovered from the endlag.

This video has Xzax fail to get the finisher multiple times. The main issue I'm seeing that rubs me is that there's a noticeable amount of hang time between the multihits and the finisher. Azen gets out before the finisher a couple of times in this video also. Even if it is very hard to punish (or just plain unpunishable), I still have to question the utility of a rapid jab with an unreliable finisher. It just makes more sense to me to pick the 1-2-3 jab over the 1-2-Infinity-Whoops jab, but as you said, most players shouldn't have any trouble with holding onto their Elwind tomes so I guess Arcfire isn't as expendable in practice.

Actually looking at the properties of ROB, Samus and Lucario in Brawl, maybe the wind jab is just less effective against heavy-floaty characters, which would make sense since characters of that build are notoriously hard to combo.

 

[meleebrawler]

Diddy Kong is considered to be one of the top tiers in this game. There's been a lot of hype around him, saying that he's top 3 or top 2, etc.

If you are having success in For Glory that's at least partly because most people don't know how to vector there. I have had a 97-98% winrate as Diddy over several hundred matches, and I don't consider myself a particularly proficient Diddy player. People fall for the d-throw to [stuff] combos way too easily, and the amount of players who simply double jump into the f-air is incredible. Even some of the lower-level tournament players that you will run into on FG will fall for things that they shouldn't. I found some players vectoring my early percent up-throws but then failing to vector my up-throw to up-air at over 150%. The consistency is highly variable. Actually, even in high-level tournaments the very simple Diddy Kong strategy of rolling, shielding, and grabbing seems to wreck a lot of players. As the metagame adapts and changes I believe that this strategy will work less often, though side-b will remain incredible.

If you are having success outside of FG with him, are you running into the following two problems? Not to belittle your success (in fact; congratulations), but just for the sake of understanding where it's coming from, and how you've gotten around the major blockers:


2) Rosalina. Diddy has an abysmally bad matchup vs. Rosalina. The banana (which is an integral part of Diddy's neutral game, by the way; I'm not sure how you get by without using it! maybe you could share: I find myself disadvantaged in approaching certain characters without at least the threat of a banana--that gets the players to shield, which in turn nets me a side-b grab or a regular grab) works against him in this MU (they trip him instead of Rosalina due to GP, and Luma can't trip), and the peanuts are useless thanks to GP as well. Side-b is one of Diddy's most potent tools in neutral due to its unpredictability, and Rosalina can simply shield it--because if Diddy uses the grab variant, Luma will hit him away. All of his aerials get walled out (they aren't particularly fast besides n-air, but they are strong and have decent range...which doesn't matter when you're up against stronger moves with even more range). D-tilt has deceptively bad range and Rosalina's d-tilt makes me want to cry banana-colored tears. If she d-smashes she can d-tilt immediately afterwards with near impunity. Also, Rosalina's floatiness/lightness makes landing combos past 30% on her almost impossible.

I'd go as far as to say that it's one of the worst matchups in the game. You have to be super hyper aggressive to beat a good Rosalina, as you have almost no options in neutral, and your followups aren't that great. And even then it is very tough. At least she can't easily gimp Diddy's recovery.

With that said, I do consider Diddy Kong to be very strong because of his kill moves. But I think the aforementioned problems will keep him out of top tier. What do you think?

Seems that the key to using Diddy's banana well here would be conditioning
Rosalina's GP usage. You should be able to punish if you can see she does it with every
banana you throw out.

Once she stops doing that, you'll have to keep in mind the other options she has
for getting around the bananas (throwing them is a bit out of the question unless
you're throwing shock bananas at Luma). She can jump, which is easy to react
to since she falls very slowly and her aerials are somewhat ill-suited for air-to ground
combat, or fire Luma which is also fairly easy to react to.

Plant your bananas, keep close to them and generally hug the ground until
you get her in a disadvantageous position in the air.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm starting to think that Diddy may actually be a bit overrated. Fair and sideB are obnoxius but can be countered in the same ways you would do in Brawl. His vertical recovery is actually even more vulnerable now. It's his setups for uair out of throws that make the character really good and it's probably impossible to consistently avoid getting hit by it.

What about his matchups? Rosalina seems to be the same solid disadvantage for Diddy that IC used to be in Brawl. Lucario's defenses at high % could prove to be very hard to crack though Diddy's ability to kill early will probably be a major factor. I can see the matchup go either way. Fox and Yoshi are by character design fundamentally powerful to the point where they should have no issues keeping up with Diddy Kong, making their matchups against him at least even. Sheik, Sonic and Greninja seem to be able to handle him fine as well in addition to be able to gimp him when it could matter. Villager, Wario, Falco and Jigglypuff are all characters that have a number of tools that Diddy might struggle against. If DACUS becomes a thing on the Wii U version I could even see Ganondorf becoming somewhat of a threat to Diddy Kong.

If you put it all together, does it really add up to a top tier character? I'd say it's more solid high tier and that his outstanding tournament results might be a bit deceiving right now. He does look like a really solid counter to Little Mac though.

Speaking of Pikachu, this Japanese player just...scares me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyD1W8VWJn8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtP12Uk0Ung

Seriously man, I look at this character and I'm like...I'm so god**** thankful this character has a hard time KOing you pre 150%. Because everything else this character does is SO DISGUSTING. I'm gonna hit myself if this character becomes popular in tournament. Don't need another Sonic in this game, **** man.

Ayame has been a pretty good Brawl player too though she didn't enter a lot of tourneys. It's really interesting to finally see a legit player using Pikachu though I'm sure ESAM will make the character look OP soon enough anyway.

 

[Zigoon95]

Am I the only one who actually thinks Samus is better than Zero Suit Samus?
Maybe it is because of my mains, maybe because all the ZSS I meet are newbies... but I have trouble battling against Samus, while against ZSS not really.

 

[KenMeister]

That comparison seems to be in relation to just melee, right?
Marth's aerials have had their kill power nerfed for the most part. Tipper fair and nair fresh killed, in fact, neutral air tipper was his second strongest move after forward smash in Brawl.

You can do SH fair into side b, but that's landing into it, which has 45 frames of lag rather than 33 when used in the air, there's no point doing it the other way around as you're a lot more option rich just landing on the ground after a short hop forward air. So it's better to sh db1 into another aerial.

I agree that all the movement tools that exist in this game and the numbers he has related to them are all pretty good except his dash length being 16 frames (although more characters this game seem to have them that bad, if not worse, big sore thumb on this is Little Mac who is like a single option character while dashing for way too long for me to think of him as really that good beyond cheesy). I'm not certain if you can pivot fsmash at any point during your dash like you can with ftilt and stuff, but if you can, that's pretty fine/awesome (I would think he could, but anecdotal instances where it looks like i turn around faster isn't conclusive).

Huh, so that's why I'm not able to put up my shield in mid-dash for perfect shield as fast as other characters. I was trying to perfect shield a projectile and I could've sworn he wouldn't stop fast enough in his tracks to shield it. lol

 

[Conda]

Am I the only one who actually thinks Samus is better than Zero Suit Samus?
Maybe it is because of my mains, maybe because all the ZSS I meet are newbies... but I have trouble battling against Samus, while against ZSS not really.

Not sure how youd come to that conclusion.

 

[Zigoon95]

Not sure how youd come to that conclusion.

I battled against a lot of ZSS and a little amount of Samuses (yet at least a dozen of them). I have very little trouble facing ZSS as Jigglypuff or Pikachu, but those times I met Samus I had some issues with her projectiles and spacing abilities. Today I managed to battle against one Samus that was also quiet decent at doing comboes, once she 0-to-death me while I was Jigglypuff.
I don't know, maybe very skilled ZSS have a win ratio so huge that I, with only 70% wins out of 1350 battles, can't battle them? But to my eyes and to my personal experience, Samus is more difficult than ZSS.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I think Timber Counter is the second best custom move in the game, after Hammer Spin Dash. I've spent a lot of time researching what beats both stages of it, because it's an interesting puzzle.

It's not quite as insane as it feels at first, but it's absolutely something you have to go into the matchup with a specific plan for. Even Hammer Spin Dash doesn't require this extent of focus!

The trip sapling doesn't actually last that long, so your options are:

• Jump over it. (That means side-b, Little Mac.)
• Roll past it.
• Use projectiles.
• Wait it out. (Possibly including just walking away, out of slingshot range)

Villager has answers to all of these separately, but it's more than enough for every character to have a cohesive set of options. Additionally, the down-b itself can be punished on read if you are anywhere close; Villager doesn't have the luxury of spamming/refreshing it freely.

When he grows it to wobbuffet tree, the calculus changes. As a reminder, wobuffet tree generates a large, 5% low-knockback Villager-aligned hitbox whenever the tree takes non-lethal damage from any attack, including Villager (sans ax). You can:

• Go for a Grab.
  
• Use safe, spammable projectiles to kill it.
• Use a risky projectile to kill it.
• Use a powerful move (15%+, preferably AC aerial) to OHKO it.
• Wait it out. (Again, probably walking away.)

Waiting it out is seldom an acceptable option (it lasts longer), rushing in for a grab is pretty dubious most of the time, and Villager does still have pocket. Ideally you waste a spammable projectile on the tree, that you don't care if it gets pocketed. You only have to get the tree down to half HP before most attacks will finish it safely, but Villager can still jab it, slingshot it, or chop it down.


Of characters without safe, spammable projectiles, the following have an aerial that can do 15%+:
bair does 19%, uair does 15%, fair does 13%. Bowser Bomb technically works as well, he has a great dashing command grab option, and his projectiles aren't awful.
dair and fair do 16%, bair and uair do 13% as well; also down-b 1 hits the tree from outside of range, and up-b 3 OHKOs it if spaced properly.
fair does 17%, bair does 16%, dair does 19%; he also has a command grab.
don't want to use Gordos? Bair does 16%, dair does 15%, and he has a command grab. Up-b technically works too, lol.
fair does 11%, bair and u-tilt does 13%, dair does 14%, Rock Smash does 12%; these are all enough when combined with Flamethrower or Fireball Cannon. (Also, Charizard has great dash grab threat.)
knee does 19%, bair and dair do 14% as well, uair does 12% but is usually stale; he also technically has a command grab, and Dashing Falcon Punch is an acceptably sane option, for Captain Falcon's definition of "acceptably sane."


These characters have some other way of dealing with the tree:

incredible aerial mobility combined with a command grab; uair also does 13%, which can finish any damaged tree. There's also always fart...
might not like resorting to her unsafe projectiles, but her dash attack is invincible on clash or hit and safe from he tree. (Bair is not, though, the tree's hit is too slow to be blocked)
has enough range on his dtilt, ftilt, and probably fair (difficult without c-stick) to hit the tree without being hit back.
f-smash (any) and u-smash OHKO the tree, and are about as fast/safe as other character's tilts.
even safer than Ike on those same moves, plus nair.


These characters have legitimate difficulty with the tree:
relies on tipper f-smash to OHKO; if tree is damaged, tipper bair does 12% and tipper dair does 14%. Dash grab is a workable option.
f-smash and back of partially charged u-smash can do 15%. (DACUS?) If the tree is damaged, "lol 13% bair." Aerial mobility helps.
relies on any f-smash or any u-smash to OHKO. Also has a good dash grab.
can OKHO with a partially charged f-smash. Bair does 14%, nair does 12%; you can drop springs on it. Can also just run in to try and get a grab. It's also more difficult to plant/water the tree against Sonic than anyone. All-in-all, Sonic can deal.


Final piece of advice: The Tree is not Luma. If you get Villager separated from his wobbuffet tree, don't "seize the advantage" and waste time safely killing it. Go fight Villager.

Grade A post here.

The main issue I was having was that my opponent was doing a hell of a job using the sapling to constantly box me into a corner and shut down most of my options. He didn't even bother growing it into a tree since it couldn't be destroyed. If I tried to jump over it I ate a slingshot to the face. If I tried waiting it out I ate nonstop rockets and slingshots. I never tried rolling around it though so I guess that's something new to consider.

I just can't help but feel it's slightly cheap that Villager has access to such a strong stage control tool when he's already beastly at controlling space with rockets and the slingshot. With the sapling in place it feels nearly impossible to approach this character as Zard.

I'll have to mess around with the MU some more.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I battled against a lot of ZSS and a little amount of Samuses (yet at least a dozen of them). I have very little trouble facing ZSS as Jigglypuff or Pikachu, but those times I met Samus I had some issues with her projectiles and spacing abilities. Today I managed to battle against one Samus that was also quiet decent at doing comboes, once she 0-to-death me while I was Jigglypuff.
I don't know, maybe very skilled ZSS have a win ratio so huge that I, with only 70% wins out of 1350 battles, can't battle them? But to my eyes and to my personal experience, Samus is more difficult than ZSS.

The thing about ZSS that makes her better is superior mobility and footsies and better juggles and KO confirms. Samus as a whole though probably benefits more from online environments as her primary strategy is keepaway, while ZSS's game more hinges on trapping. This could make her easier to play as in comparison.

Slightly bold statement: Samus is mid tier in this game..

Right, so let me remind people that this game is called Super Trap and Footsie Bros for the 3DS and Wii-U. Samus can't be bad because she's by design OBNOXIOUS to trap. She's heavy, still has one of the best recoveries in the game (tether recovery is so good on Samus...seriously) and thus can easily edgeguard most characters for good reward, and Bombs are slightly ******** to work around when juggling her, and also have to be respected when trying to pressure her in close range.

The fact Charge Shot is very strong in this game also means Samus is quite dangerous to land against when she has it ready. It can KO people around 90% fully charged and fresh iirc, and it does what, 25% or something? Charge Shot at the very least is mad legit on Samus.

Z-air got nerfed in damage (does 1-3% this game or something?) but it still works as a zoning tool just fine.

So in general, she's a character that's hard to kill and really capitalize on, and the applications of Charge Shot are so good that she has to be respected. And she has some good tools like Z-air, Bombs, and Up-B which make her hard to get in on safely.

Reasons why she isn't high tier:
*Tether grab...yeah
*Jab is unreliable at low percents
*Tilts while they have great range are not safe on block
*Has a hard time setting up KOs without Charge Shot
*Is not very strong air to air in neutral except with Z-air and...Charge Shot
*In general really just isn't as scary without Charge Shot

This isn't factoring she has very strong customs that significantly improve her punish game outside of Charge Shot.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Shaya

Pretty sure Marth can pivot f-smash out of his opening dash animation, it's just hard to do consistently. I did it a few times on 3ds. That's why I feel once he gets a GC controller the trap possibilities will be way too deadly. Mindless 50/50's that lead to death or reset to neutral with him at advantage.

Soon my lord Marth

Very soon.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I battled against a lot of ZSS and a little amount of Samuses (yet at least a dozen of them). I have very little trouble facing ZSS as Jigglypuff or Pikachu, but those times I met Samus I had some issues with her projectiles and spacing abilities. Today I managed to battle against one Samus that was also quiet decent at doing comboes, once she 0-to-death me while I was Jigglypuff.
I don't know, maybe very skilled ZSS have a win ratio so huge that I, with only 70% wins out of 1350 battles, can't battle them? But to my eyes and to my personal experience, Samus is more difficult than ZSS.

Well, thats just all about match-ups as well as how well you deal with certain characters.

It very well could be that Jigglypuff and Pikachu have a disadvantage matchup vs. Samus but not ZSS.

There's also the fact that you probably could have a more personal easier time dealing with ZSS then Samus. I myself have trouble with fast characters, and I'm a Rosalina main.

Judging by how you mention winrate, I'm guessing this all in for glory? That could also be a factor. Samus's projectiles are perfect for Omega Stages. You might have a better time on stages like Battlefield, Prism Tower, etc.

Like you said, you could've just been facing Newbie ZSS, and good Samuses.

Online has a couple frames of input delay, which as a Jigglypuff player as well know can get a bit annoying. Especially trying to pull off a back air only for Jigglypuff to hit the ground before landing the hit. You could potentially have an easier time with Samus when playing locally.

I personally haven't faced too many Samuses. I have more trouble with ZSS then Samus personally.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I've played a ton of Rosalina & Luma in this game so far (close to 1000 matches online, with around a 90% winning percentage... and I've also studied all her online competitive matches, particularly those played by Dabuz). So I feel I have at least a decent understanding of the character, at least as she plays so far.

I don't think any other character has a legitimate match up advantage against her. I just don't. I've seen people on this forum claiming all sorts of characters have an advantage against her - Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Sonic, Lucario, Yoshi, Little Mac, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Pit, Dark Pit, Lin, Duck Hunt Dog, King Dedede, Mario, Palutena, Game & Watch, etc.

But I just don't buy it. IMO there are only characters who are at less of a disadvantage against her than others. In my ~1000 For Glory matches so far, the character that gives me the most trouble is... other Rosalinas. I think that probably says at least something.

Sure, certain characters like Zero Suit Samus can neutralize Luma if Rosalina shoots Luma out, but that just means Rosalina needs to use Luma differently, and overall it's not a disadvantageous match up... mainly because Rosalina is just plain good, and the same stuff that works everyone else mostly works against ZSS too.

If there's one opposing character who I think might have something of an advantage on Rosalina right now, it's actually R.O.B., who doesn't seem to get very much attention, but he seems to really have something against Rosalina. He knocks Luma away with ease, and he's just annoying to deal with as a Rosalina player overall.

For what it's worth, I really wish that I didn't feel my main was borderline overpowered... but that's my honest assessment of the character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Don't feel bad. And don't blame your character. Blame Nintendo for making other characters weak.

 

[Djent]

I was expecting Rosalina to become (one of) the best as people improved with her, but I wasn't expecting her to start dominating right out of the ****ing gate. That's the scary part - it didn't even take any time for the "theory" to start becoming reality.

As a more general point - every new game seems "more balanced" than its predecessors ... because it's new. I remember when the UMvC3 boards were convinced their game was "balanced," where characters would have to rely on "resets" in the absence of the DHC glitch. We all know how that turned out.

As we discover the best tactics, the game is more likely to become less balanced than it is right now. We're already starting to see certain characters are just flat out better than the rest of the cast. I honestly don't see the Rosalinas, Yoshis, and Sheiks getting less powerful with time. They'll either win more or get displaced by even more oppressive characters.

 

[Emblem Lord]

UMVC3 is solid because alot of chars are strong. I'll take that over only 10 chars actually being playable i.e MvC2.

 

[Dpete]

I've played a ton of Rosalina & Luma in this game so far (close to 1000 matches online, with around a 90% winning percentage... and I've also studied all her online competitive matches, particularly those played by Dabuz). So I feel I have at least a decent understanding of the character, at least as she plays so far.

I don't think any other character has a legitimate match up advantage against her. I just don't. I've seen people on this forum claiming all sorts of characters have an advantage against her - Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Sonic, Lucario, Yoshi, Little Mac, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Pit, Dark Pit, Lin, Duck Hunt Dog, King Dedede, Mario, Palutena, Game & Watch, etc.

But I just don't buy it. IMO there are only characters who are at less of a disadvantage against her than others. In my ~1000 For Glory matches so far, the character that gives me the most trouble is... other Rosalinas. I think that probably says at least something.

Sure, certain characters like Zero Suit Samus can neutralize Luma if Rosalina shoots Luma out, but that just means Rosalina needs to use Luma differently, and overall it's not a disadvantageous match up... mainly because Rosalina is just plain good, and the same stuff that works everyone else mostly works against ZSS too.

If there's one opposing character who I think has a legitimate advantage on Rosalina right now, it's actually R.O.B., who doesn't seem to get very much attention, but he seems to really have something against Rosalina. He knocks Luma away with ease, and he's just annoying to deal with as a Rosalina player overall.

For what it's worth, I really wish that I didn't feel my main was borderline overpowered... but that's my honest assessment of the character.

I'll second the ROB advantage vs RosaLuma. Her DownB is theoretically strong against his projectile game, but the speed of the laser seems to give most I've played trouble. ROB likes to lurk midrange as well, so punishing DownB is always an option. Sending Luma over is risky, since ROB can reflect it back in your face or stop it with a quick Gyro. So, most are forced to approach.

ROB has a solid KO game, which is nice against lightweights like Rosy. The typical Dthrow->Uair is ineffective becuase Luma, but otherwise damage racking doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

Getting ROB up in the air is probably the best strategy; start-up lag on Bair, Dair, and Nair make them risky propositions, and RosaLuma's USmash is scary.

 

[popsofctown]

I thought MK looked pretty scary out of the gate in Brawl.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Um guys? What am I missing about Sonic again? From my time on For Glory once I'm in the air getting down becomes a pain in the rear.

 

[Gea]

I've played a ton of Rosalina & Luma in this game so far (close to 1000 matches online, with around a 90% winning percentage... and I've also studied all her online competitive matches, particularly those played by Dabuz). So I feel I have at least a decent understanding of the character, at least as she plays so far.

I don't think any other character has a legitimate match up advantage against her. I just don't. I've seen people on this forum claiming all sorts of characters have an advantage against her - Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Sonic, Lucario, Yoshi, Little Mac, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Pit, Dark Pit, Lin, Duck Hunt Dog, King Dedede, Mario, Palutena, Game & Watch, etc.

But I just don't buy it. IMO there are only characters who are at less of a disadvantage against her than others. In my ~1000 For Glory matches so far, the character that gives me the most trouble is... other Rosalinas. I think that probably says at least something.

Sure, certain characters like Zero Suit Samus can neutralize Luma if Rosalina shoots Luma out, but that just means Rosalina needs to use Luma differently, and overall it's not a disadvantageous match up... mainly because Rosalina is just plain good, and the same stuff that works everyone else mostly works against ZSS too.

If there's one opposing character who I think has a legitimate advantage on Rosalina right now, it's actually R.O.B., who doesn't seem to get very much attention, but he seems to really have something against Rosalina. He knocks Luma away with ease, and he's just annoying to deal with as a Rosalina player overall.

For what it's worth, I really wish that I didn't feel my main was borderline overpowered... but that's my honest assessment of the character.

Not to get into a huge discussion about this, but I actually feel almost the polar opposite. I think she's currently being overrated for several reasons and while she is SUPER good and will remain super good, a lot of her tools aren't properly understood and thus people are making mistakes they will not in the future. For example, people will try to grab her normally. Did you know that many grabs in this game are invincible during the animations? There are actually several ways to safely grab and throw Rosaluma without getting punished, but they are specific.

Several other characters can actually outspace Rosaluma that are connected (most notably I think Yoshi does a really good job of this) and if they are apart most people don't really understand how luma works well enough to feel comfortable making good decisions being close to Luma when it can be extremely safe to do so.

3DS johns are a small part of this, as being meticulously spaced quickly is seeing a small nerf at the moment which will work against her since she is so floaty. People are not edgeguarding her correctly which granted takes some investment that she has some options around but did you know that you can hit Rosalina through the stage as she rides up it to sweetspot? Several characters can. How many people do these types of things right now? Barely any.

Personally I also think ROB has a tough time. His gyro and laser get nullified pretty hard and her tilts can outspace his. It becomes a sort of poke game where he has some advantages but his size makes him prime target to be juggled and she can easily harass him as he tries to return.

Now don't get me wrong, I do think Rosalina is a top character in this game. It's annoying though to see such overly dramatic notions when there aren't issues like her having a move that a large majority of the cast has no answer to. She doesn't have a magic pressure button. Her tools are really good and she forces people to play differently. She has not, however, shown any sort of inclination that she is such a dominant force as to have no bad MUs. Nor does she utterly polarize a lot of MUs in the game even if she does win a ton of them.

tl;dr: Don't use your For Glory experience as justification for this character's good and bad traits.

 

[Signia]

I thought MK looked pretty scary out of the gate in Brawl.

Yeah but this is a puppetmaster character. Usually it takes time for really nasty tech to get discovered and mastered. Usually these characters seem super weak due to puppetmaster's weakness until mastery of the puppet is reached. This is how it was with Viola in SCV. She seemed so weak that the developers buffed her, but the patch occurred a few weeks after some crazy tech was discovered with her delayed orb attack, and she became the best character in the game.

Generally the devs never predict correctly just how strong characters with independent attacking things are: http://youtu.be/z3WVi9JowQI?t=27m6s

The scary thing is that Rosalina still hasn't even developed and she's already strong, and there will be new tech discovered that will make her even stronger. Most recently, there's the Luma desync from auto cancelled aerials. Rosalina can do an aerial close to the ground that immediately autocancels without a hitbox coming out, but Luma does her aerial attack anyway, resulting in safe shield pressure or a true combo.