Character Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

I said this before. He is Itachi from Naruto Ninja Storm Revolution. Decent but then he gets his ASS HANDED TO HIM and then suddenly OMG SASANOO WTFOMGBBQ!@!@!#@#

 

[The Real Gamer]

Yeah it's basically a PERMANENT UNCOUNTERABLE BANANA and it's just completely ridiculous.

Yeah and the thing that's most baffling about it is that there is no way to destroy it (unlike the tree).

Easily the most ridiculous move I've seen yet.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

From what I know, Brawl Lucario had some nice damage racking and even good combo strings when he was at low percent, making him feel dangerous at all levels as combos transformed into finishers when he needed it. He's still better overall with added aura scaling, but I liked how Brawl's progression handled it compared to lol weak to lol absurdly strong. Just my preference.

Edit: "Weak" Lucario starts feeling right to me around 40-50%

I kinda prefer attributes of each to some degree.

The lol weak to lol strong is funny to me and love it.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Yeah and the thing that's most baffling about it is that there is no way to destroy it (unlike the tree).

Easily the most ridiculous move I've seen yet.

Destroying the tree isn't easy either since it hits you back lol

But yeah at least you can shoot projectiles at it or something.
The sapling comes out from the first down B as well so basically at any time Villager can just be like "This spot is mine now. If you enter it you die."

 

[Admiral Pit]

I missed Palutena impressions?

Well she is definitely a complex character in her own right, and is not a character that you can just pick up in an instant. With defaults, she's a highly defensive character who thrives on capitalizing on the opponent's mistakes and openings, and reads. She has a few fair follow-ups, in which her main ones involve her D-throw to N-air, F-air, or U-air, the latter of which is a kill method, though some characters have better times vectoring out of it. Her main moves are F-air, single jab, grab, and D-throw I believe.
Did I mention her pummel is pretty good as well? It has decent speed and does 3% a hit, not Brawl Lucas fast, but still something that should be known.

Customs? That's what makes Palutena much more complex, since her moves are the only ones (not counting the Miis since they're not being used) that aren't variations, but rather different moves on their own. Super Speed and Celestial Fireworks are among 2 of her best ones, the former for mobility, the latter for extra anti-air capabilities that can kill, especially if you catch an opponent in midair. Jump Glide is also considered great for is superb recovery (well, at least the best horizontal recovery), and has mobility of its own.

While Palutena herself has weaknesses with some of her laggy moves and major issues with speed characters and has troubles when her opponent is way too close, she definitely should not be underestimated. I could see her be around the mid tier department provided that more players can bring out her potential.

Notable moves and some facts about them:
1. F-air: One of her bread & butter moves. It has range for spacing, doesn't really lag at all when you land on the ground,
2: D-throw: Her main throw, used to follow up with F-air, N-air, or U-air depending on percentages and the character. The latter is a KO method.
3: Single jab: Good range, can often grab quickly afterwards. If you're lucky, you may land D-tilt or F-smash as a follow-up.
4: N-air: Fair range, lasts a bit, and there's instances where you can spike with it or at least drag opponents down with you if you fastfall. More info needed.
5: Dash Attack and B-air: While the former can be laggy, the interesting property of the move is that it can neutralize relatively any projectile (I think I may be wrong). I believe it can block some attacks, too, but I am not certain.
6: F-smash and D-smash have windboxes. You can use it to mess with opponents, and some of their recoveries as well. I haven't done it myself but maybe someone will know.


Other thoughts or stuff to note about her?
1: Great anti-air capabilities. She does really great on platform stages. Customs just make this trait better with Celestial Fireworks.
2: Fairly good speed and not too much lag on some of her moves, with the exception of F-tilt, U-tilt, and Counter among others.
3: Good range.
4: Has troubles if opponent gets in way too close.
5: Capable of stop camping to some degree, but she herself is not a true camper (when looking at Default Palutena)
6. N-air can be used as a temporary wall against certain recovering characters sometimes. It's often safe thanks to its partial range and Palutena's recovery.



Some even say she's a great support character in doubles, but me being more of the 1v1 type, others can fill in for me in that department.
I don't expect all of my stuff to be rigt, but Palutena's definitely an underrated character that is great in her own right, and like I said, I feel she could be around mid tier if she was given a chance. The problem is that the players don't know how to make her work. Just give the game time and soon...
"No one can hide from the light."

 

[A2ZOMG]

Has anyone told you that you tend to number crunch a lot in your analyses?

Y'know, there's a reason I wish I could have known M2K personally. And at the same time, this is making me feel like yeah, if only I had the game and was spending time testing things the way I normally do because I'd almost inevitably collect useful data and observations that would occur to virtually nobody else. Y'know, the same way I discovered true momentum canceling in Brawl.

But I have to base all my observations on videos before the Wii-U game release and comparisons to Brawl for verification. And I'm STILL managing to collect a small amount of accurate frame data somehow independently (Ganondorf's Jab is definitely 8 frames in this game still).

 

[ChikoLad]

OK, so I know a bunch of people were asking for Pac-Man impressions but couldn't get any. So I just asked a friend of mine to type up why he mains Pac-Man, and the frustrations he might observe from his shortcomings, and here is what he had to say:

"With my experience I feel as though Pac Man is a well rounded fighter (similar to Mario). His speed is about average, damage is about average, and so forth. Pac Man is capable of pulling off decent combos when in the right hands, often relating to his air game, which is better than most.

His neutral B adds strategy to using him with each fruit acting differently from the rest and having different uses depending on the situation and character*. It's interesting and a positive thing since, unlike many other characters, you don't necessarily get the best result by charging for the maximum amount of time. The key isn't always the best item you can get.

Pac Man's air game, while not the best in the game, is still better than average. Pac has two different ways to recover back onto the stage both of which can be good depending on the situation. And even his down B can keep him suspended in the air for just a brief moment of time, potentially allowing more breathing room when getting back on the stage (this only works if a hydrant isn't already spawned on the stage). His up B, unfortunately leaves you in a state of helplessness as you fall back onto the stage, leaving you open for punishment. This is why I would sooner recommend his side B for recovering.

A major disadvantage to Pac Man is that many of his moves and strategies would require being up close with your opponent. Many of his fruits have distance limits, his smashes and standard attacks don't reach far, and his grab has a short range (and takes too long to recover from should you miss). The hydrant can potentially have decent reach (and can be used/launched quickly with a well timed dropkick) but even that has limits and can be dodged easily by someone far enough from you. With many characters this isn't much of an issue, but it becomes cumbersome against characters whose movesets allow strategies where the opponent plays keep away and deals damage from afar (he asked me to add that as an example, "Pac man is pretty much useless against a Rosalina player who knows how to use luma properly").

And I've seen and agreed with the discussions on Smashboards that suggest that his moveset could've been a little more inspired by past games. Rev roll would be too similar to Sonic's spin dash, but his butt bounce from Pac Man World would've been a great meteor smash, similar to Greninja's.

Pac Man is a good, well rounded (pun) character that fit me like a glove. He isn't without his obvious shortcomings, however, and I do think he'll end up being restricted to the middle of the pac (PUN) and be considered a mid-tier character.

*in a smash boards thread i remember seeing something about his slow melon being capable of keeping most characters at bay when recovering, with only mario/dr. mario being the exceptions"

Hope this helps some people understand Pac-Man a bit more.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I haven't seen a lot of opinions on Falco as of recent. Is he a character that's just kinda...there, in this metagame?

 

[ChikoLad]

I haven't seen a lot of opinions on Falco as of recent. Is he a character that's just kinda...there, in this metagame?

Seems like it.

I definitely feel like he's nowhere near his Brawl or Melee incarnations. Just feels really awkward to play (heck I felt Brawl Falco was awkward, even though I recognise what made him high tier in that game).

 

[The Real Gamer]

Destroying the tree isn't easy either since it hits you back lol

But yeah at least you can shoot projectiles at it or something.
The sapling comes out from the first down B as well so basically at any time Villager can just be like "This spot is mine now. If you enter it you die."

Then combine that with rocket/slingshot camping and you have what is likely the most difficult/obnoxious MU in the game for Zard.

Counter Sappling camping is gonna **** over quite a few characters most people just haven't been exposed to the strat yet.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I haven't seen a lot of opinions on Falco as of recent. Is he a character that's just kinda...there, in this metagame?

Falco is probably a lot more competitively relevant than people want to say.

He can't be camped, has good footsies, and his damage is frankly ABSURD. I mean seriously, tilts do 9%, aerials do 12%, Smashes are 15%, even Reflector got buffed and does 5% which is huge in a game where most other characters are doing about 7-8% on tilts. His recovery even got buffed in this game too when it already was pretty good.

Then in matchups where Falco doesn't worry about reflecting projectiles, Void reflector does 9% and has great knockback (it also eliminates projectiles, including Villager's Timber Counter iirc). Falco is good.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Really solid slow paced footsie character that can get out of alot of situations for FREE. Phantasm is no joke people.

Falco is solid. Top tier? No, of course not. But if you want a balanced character that doesnt really struggle in alot of matches and is a safe pick, Falco is your...man...bird..anthropomorphic...thingy...**** it

HE PREFERS THE AIR *****AMMIT

 

[A2ZOMG]

Really solid slow paced footsie character that can get out of alot of situations for FREE. Phantasm is no joke people.

Falco is solid. Top tier? No, of course not. But if you want a balanced character that doesnt really struggle in alot of matches and is a safe pick, Falco is your...man...bird..anthropomorphic...thingy...**** it

HE PREFERS THE AIR GAWDDAMMIT

The irony, considering his ground game.

 

[Shaya]

I think of as the basketballer of this game.

Dribbles the ball (jabs/tilts/etc), shoots for the goal (mentioned set up moves below), and then using space-jam level physics SLAM DUNKS (up air, back air, some cases fair) them into the net. It all has to do with his unbelievably high/fast jumps.

His combo game/potency is really percent specific. It's because he is one of the few characters in this game who has genuine combo/true combo game play similar to Melee where "hit stun is real" but the speed of most characters cannot catch up fast enough to actually follow up. If he sends you directly upwards though pretty high, you're in hit stun the entire time, and his jump speed brings him straight to you, it's ridiculous.

Fortunately he has many moves that set up at nearly all percent, down tilt, up tilt, up smash, up throw, dash attack. And when Falco hits you with those moves at the right time and jumps into your face at around 80% near the higher reach of the blast zone? Expect to get ****ing dunked by a back air that wouldn't be many degrees weaker than Falcon's knee, and up air is also capable of finishing people off the top by 100% as well.

His percent centric game and lack of kill set ups or kill moves in general otherwise, hamper him a lot. But I think he'll always be relevant due to his reflector and otherwise having likely the best footsie spread in the game. I think he may have hard times mounting a come back with certain high tiers, probably gets destroyed by Pikachu :<, but yeah, I don't think you could go wrong maining this guy. I can't help but really enjoy playing him this game, and at this time I don't feel as remotely as restricted by his kill potential like he had in Brawl.

Rage and revenge killing on Falco works out a lot as well, because all of a sudden the aforementioned dunk set ups are a lot weaker again. It's one of those things that are actually pretty notable to the character, I can mess up first stock and bring it back to even pretty easily and then use that time to adapt to habits that allow me more DUNKING opportunities.

Among other things the buffed recovery and the lack of edge hogging gives Falco the opportunity to actually go deep off stage for the first time. Heavily underappreciated and likely has a lot of room for magic to happen. Although his down air was nerfed, I generally seem to find that the hitbox/disjoints on it are disgusting enough that you just need to aim it towards their recovery path and the sour spot of it is "gimping" enough. Forward air drags/kills people recovering a lot too. You can kill Bowser off stage with back air at like 70-80%.

I love so much in the hot/cold sense.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Speaking of Pikachu, this Japanese player just...scares me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyD1W8VWJn8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtP12Uk0Ung

Seriously man, I look at this character and I'm like...I'm so god**** thankful this character has a hard time KOing you pre 150%. Because everything else this character does is SO DISGUSTING. I'm gonna hit myself if this character becomes popular in tournament. Don't need another Sonic in this game, **** man.

 

[Ffamran]

I think of as the basketballer of this game.

Dribbles the ball, shoots for the goal, and then using space-jam level physics SLAM DUNKS them into the net. It all has to do with his unbelievably high/fast jumps.

His combo game/potency is really percent specific. It's because he is one of the few characters in this game who has genuine combo/true combo game play similar to Melee where "hit stun is real" but the speed of most characters cannot catch up fast enough to actually follow up. If he sends you directly upwards though pretty high, you're in hit stun the entire time, and his jump speed brings him straight to you, it's ridiculous.

Fortunately he has many moves that set up at nearly all percent, down tilt, up tilt, up smash, up throw, dash attack. And when Falco hits you with those moves at the right time and jumps into your face at around 80% near the higher reach of the blast zone? Expect to get ****ing dunked by a back air that wouldn't be many degrees weaker than Falcon's knee, and up air is also capable of finishing people off the top by 100% as well.

His percent centric game and lack of kill set ups or kill moves in general otherwise, hamper him a lot. But I think he'll always be relevant due to his reflector and otherwise having likely the best footsie spread in the game. I think he may have hard times mounting a come back with certain high tiers, probably gets destroyed by Pikachu :<, but yeah, I don't think you could go wrong maining this guy. I can't help but really enjoy playing him this game, and at this time I don't feel as remotely as restricted by his kill potential like he had in Brawl.

Rage and revenge killing on Falco works out a lot as well, because all of a sudden the aforementioned dunk set ups are a lot weaker again. It's one of those things that are actually pretty notable to the character, I can mess up first stock and bring it back to even pretty easily and then use that time to adapt to habits that allow me more DUNKING opportunities.

Among other things the buffed recovery and the lack of edge hogging gives Falco the opportunity to actually go deep off stage for the first time. Heavily underappreciated and likely has a lot of room for magic to happen. Although his down air was nerfed, I generally seem to find that the hitbox/disjoints on it are disgusting enough that you just need to aim it towards their recovery path and the sour spot of it is "gimping" enough. Forward air drags/kills people recovering a lot too. You can kill Bowser off stage with back air at like 70-80%.

I love so much in the hot/cold sense.

I now want the announcer to say: "BOOMSHAKALAKA" when scores a KO. That or says it occasionally when he KOs someone.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

All of these Falco impressions make me happy. After toying around with the birdman lately his playstyle felt like Wolf. I'm not just talking about the back aerial, too; his whole kit seems slower paced and more methodical this time around. If he really is that "adaptable, well-balanced character who can tackle (almost) any situation", then he might just be the main I'm looking for. Being uncampable is nice too.

Also as A2ZOMG said, his normals deal so much damage, especially for their speed. A simple Dtilt -> Fair combo is a free 20%? Yes, please!

 

[Jahordon]

This man. Pikachu is still insane. He'd just be straight up broken if he had strong KO moves. I wouldn't be surprised if the character was top 10 in the future. In a game where traps into KO confirms are effectively the meta...Pikachu is nearly untrappable if he plays right. And his approach is stupid impossible to react to.

It's like, I don't even know if that kind of thing should be allowed.

Necropost, but what is this great approach everybody keeps talking about Pikachu having? Is it his QA? Can you QAC in this game? If not, isn't there enough lag to punish him out of QA? Can Pika do anything out of his QA?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Smash 4 Falco's theme

I'd honestly like Falco a lot more if he was a little faster on the ground. I like everything about him but goddd that ****ty mobility.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Re: Falco

I think Falco is totally solid. I think I said it within the first few pages of this thread, in fact.

His footsies are great and his damage is just absurd. He can't gatling anymore or antyhing but it hardly matters when you have 10% damage tilts (LOL).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Necropost, but what is this great approach everybody keeps talking about Pikachu having? Is it his QA? Can you QAC in this game? If not, isn't there enough lag to punish him out of QA? Can Pika do anything out of his QA?

Yeah basically, you can approach with Quick Attack.

It's not PERFECTLY safe (theoretically you can try to trade with it using lingering hitboxes and with some fast OOS options), but nobody can punish it on reaction. And the hitbox on Quick Attack can lead to juggles, and spaced well it's really hard to punish Pikachu for crossing you over with Quick Attack.

Combined with Pikachu's Thunder Jolt to FORCE you to block, and the fact that because Quick Attack is unpunishable as an escape, Pikachu is supremely cancerous and unexploitable. His only weakness is low knockback KO moves. But you can never really force him to play outside of his terms generally speaking, and he is always able to force you to guess in ways that aren't in your favor.

He also has EXTREMELY safe fullhop aerials that are instant and have good priority and can lead to combos and multiple hits meaning he gives no ****s about powershielding.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I now want the announcer to say: "BOOMSHAKALAKA" when scores a KO. That or says it occasionally when he KOs someone.

MONSTER JAM! HE'S ON FIRE!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah and the thing that's most baffling about it is that there is no way to destroy it (unlike the tree).

Easily the most ridiculous move I've seen yet.

I think Timber Counter is the second best custom move in the game, after Hammer Spin Dash. I've spent a lot of time researching what beats both stages of it, because it's an interesting puzzle.

It's not quite as insane as it feels at first, but it's absolutely something you have to go into the matchup with a specific plan for. Even Hammer Spin Dash doesn't require this extent of focus!

The trip sapling doesn't actually last that long, so your options are:

• Jump over it. (That means side-b, Little Mac.)
• Roll past it.
• Use projectiles.
• Wait it out. (Possibly including just walking away, out of slingshot range)

Villager has answers to all of these separately, but it's more than enough for every character to have a cohesive set of options. Additionally, the down-b itself can be punished on read if you are anywhere close; Villager doesn't have the luxury of spamming/refreshing it freely.

When he grows it to wobbuffet tree, the calculus changes. As a reminder, wobuffet tree generates a large, 5% low-knockback Villager-aligned hitbox whenever the tree takes non-lethal damage from any attack, including Villager (sans ax). You can:

• Go for a Grab.
  
• Use safe, spammable projectiles to kill it.
• Use a risky projectile to kill it.
• Use a powerful move (15%+, preferably AC aerial) to OHKO it.
• Wait it out. (Again, probably walking away.)

Waiting it out is seldom an acceptable option (it lasts longer), rushing in for a grab is pretty dubious most of the time, and Villager does still have pocket. Ideally you waste a spammable projectile on the tree, that you don't care if it gets pocketed. You only have to get the tree down to half HP before most attacks will finish it safely, but Villager can still jab it, slingshot it, or chop it down.


Of characters without safe, spammable projectiles, the following have an aerial that can do 15%+:
bair does 19%, uair does 15%, fair does 13%. Bowser Bomb technically works as well, he has a great dashing command grab option, and his projectiles aren't awful.
dair and fair do 16%, bair and uair do 13% as well; also down-b 1 hits the tree from outside of range, and up-b 3 OHKOs it if spaced properly.
fair does 17%, bair does 16%, dair does 19%; he also has a command grab.
don't want to use Gordos? Bair does 16%, dair does 15%, and he has a command grab. Up-b technically works too, lol.
fair does 11%, bair and u-tilt does 13%, dair does 14%, Rock Smash does 12%; these are all enough when combined with Flamethrower or Fireball Cannon. (Also, Charizard has great dash grab threat.)
knee does 19%, bair and dair do 14% as well, uair does 12% but is usually stale; he also technically has a command grab, and Dashing Falcon Punch is an acceptably sane option, for Captain Falcon's definition of "acceptably sane."


These characters have some other way of dealing with the tree:

incredible aerial mobility combined with a command grab; uair also does 13%, which can finish any damaged tree. There's also always fart...
might not like resorting to her unsafe projectiles, but her dash attack is invincible on clash or hit and safe from he tree. (Bair is not, though, the tree's hit is too slow to be blocked)
has enough range on his dtilt, ftilt, and probably fair (difficult without c-stick) to hit the tree without being hit back.
f-smash (any) and u-smash OHKO the tree, and are about as fast/safe as other character's tilts.
even safer than Ike on those same moves, plus nair.


These characters have legitimate difficulty with the tree:
relies on tipper f-smash to OHKO; if tree is damaged, tipper bair does 12% and tipper dair does 14%. Dash grab is a workable option.
f-smash and back of partially charged u-smash can do 15%. (DACUS?) If the tree is damaged, "lol 13% bair." Aerial mobility helps.
relies on any f-smash or any u-smash to OHKO. Also has a good dash grab.
can OKHO with a partially charged f-smash. Bair does 14%, nair does 12%; you can drop springs on it. Can also just run in to try and get a grab. It's also more difficult to plant/water the tree against Sonic than anyone. All-in-all, Sonic can deal.


Final piece of advice: The Tree is not Luma. If you get Villager separated from his wobbuffet tree, don't "seize the advantage" and waste time safely killing it. Go fight Villager.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Y'know, there's a reason I wish I could have known M2K personally. And at the same time, this is making me feel like yeah, if only I had the game and was spending time testing things the way I normally do because I'd almost inevitably collect useful data and observations that would occur to virtually nobody else. Y'know, the same way I discovered true momentum canceling in Brawl.

But I have to base all my observations on videos before the Wii-U game release and comparisons to Brawl for verification. And I'm STILL managing to collect a small amount of accurate frame data somehow independently (Ganondorf's Jab is definitely 8 frames in this game still).

I think that's when you'll be able to upgrade from theorycrafting to finding stuff with Mario that will do great things. Or maybe not, IDK.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think that's when you'll be able to upgrade from theorycrafting to finding stuff with Mario that will do great things. Or maybe not, IDK.

People in Smash 4 actually have it pretty easy right now. A lot of Brawl players have the benefit of our database of knowledge from the previous game to give an idea of things we should be looking for. And that's a good thing for everyone, including me. It's less work everyone has to do to focus on finding things that are important. Ideally, really detail oriented people like me, M2K, or Magus420 won't be needed to find things that are gamechanging when the fundamentals of our researching capabilities are by far better today than when Brawl first came out.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Speaking of spacies, I feel Fox is really underestimated as most people consider Sheik, Greninja, Zero Suit, and Rosalina above him as the top 4, but if anyone has the potential to overtake them it's Fox.

His toolkit is just so amazing. His jabs can be canceled and comboed into itself. His uptilt is ridiculous for racking up damage. His blaster + reflector means he beats everyone at the camping game. His nair can be SHFFed Melee style. His upsmash still kills and your opponent has to respect it at all times. Ditto for uair. His recovery is just insane. He runs super fast (4th fastest in the game). Pretty much everything he has is really good, except maybe his throw game.

He has so many tools for applying pressure and he can't be camped. He wins the ranged game and the close up game. He doesn't have that much silly bs like Sonic/Rosalina/Lucario etc, but he's just an extremely solid character and I think after people start figuring out ways to deal with the silly stuff Fox will rise on his fundamentals.

 

[Shaya]

From what I read from somewhere, trip sappling can stay on the ground for up to 16 seconds?
I don't know about you, but that's a very very very long time in game terms.

Yeah, you aren't forced to approach them for 16 seconds, and they can't just freely do it again, but every time they reset to neutral, you have to give them 16 seconds of "control".

In Marth's case, I can jab/down tilt/shieldbreaker over trip sappling without getting tripped, or can even do some riskier things like Fsmashing into it to cancel the lag with a trip while still getting the hitbox out there. I wouldn't say it's 50/50, but it's by no means one-sided.

No real comment on the wobbufet tree.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Speaking of spacies, I feel Fox is really underestimated as most people consider Sheik, Greninja, Zero Suit, and Rosalina above him as the top 4, but if anyone has the potential to overtake them it's Fox.

His toolkit is just so amazing. His jabs can be canceled and comboed into itself. His uptilt is ridiculous for racking up damage. His blaster + reflector means he beats everyone at the camping game. His nair can be SHFFed Melee style. His upsmash still kills and your opponent has to respect it at all times. Ditto for uair. His recovery is just insane. He runs super fast (4th fastest in the game). Pretty much everything he has is really good, except maybe his throw game.

He has so many tools for applying pressure and he can't be camped. He wins the ranged game and the close up game. He doesn't have that much silly bs like Sonic/Rosalina/Lucario etc, but he's just an extremely solid character and I think after people start figuring out ways to deal with the silly stuff Fox will rise on his fundamentals.

It wouldn't surprise me. Fox has always been good in every Smash game, outside of a few really stupid things certain characters get on him in Brawl, without which he's probably high tier. He's going to be good again in Smash 4 without these things.

 

[Thinkaman]

From what I read from somewhere, trip sapling can stay on the ground for up to 16 seconds?
I don't know about you, but that's a very very very long time in game terms.

Yeah, you aren't forced to approach them for 16 seconds, and they can't just freely do it again, but every time they reset to neutral, you have to give them 16 seconds of "control".

Yeah, it's not a workable solution to just give up and run away every time the sapling comes out. (This is assuming you are behind; if you have the lead, Villager has to approach you in some form.)

It's more like, if you try and fail once or twice (or succeed), and now Villager is camping behind a sapling that only has 4-6 seconds of life left, you might be well-advised to shield a few slingshots and wait it out.

This is not true for the tree, at least not on the same scale.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

When he grows it to wobbuffet tree, the calculus changes. As a reminder, wobuffet tree generates a large, 5% low-knockback Villager-aligned hitbox whenever the tree takes non-lethal damage from any attack, including Villager (sans ax).

I'm having a bit of trouble parsing this, specifically the "Villager-aligned" part. Can you explain further?

Also, I can't tell from your description if the tree actually hurts Villager or if it just pops out a hitbox that Villager can exploit if the opponent is near the tree.

 

[Tagxy]

lol, pikachus QA approach is NOT THAT GOOD. You can't even do anything with it until the second zip which is plenty of time to react. And no pikachu is not comparable to sonic in the way being implied.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'm having a bit of trouble parsing this, specifically the "Villager-aligned" part. Can you explain further?

Also, I can't tell from your description if the tree actually hurts Villager or if it just pops out a hitbox that Villager can exploit if the opponent is near the tree.

The X-aligned means that the damage and any kills gets credited to X (in this case, Villager), and as far as I can tell it pops a hitbox near or on the tree when it gets hit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol, pikachus QA approach is NOT THAT GOOD. You can't even do anything with it until the second zip which is plenty of time to react. And no pikachu is not comparable to sonic, not even in their killing.

Pikachu has a slow moving projectile, and the point is, you absolutely cannot react to Quick Attack, and the different ways Pikachu can use it all demand completely different responses. The amount of threat Pikachu has in neutral and his relative safety is ridiculous, combined with the fact he has generally great aerials and tilts, high damage throws that COMBO, and just absolutely can't be trapped period. It's kinda sad and disgusting that the only thing really balancing him is low knockback KO moves, because this character just excels completely and almost flawlessly at control and capitalizing.

 

[SapphSabre777]

i personally feel that kirby is subpar in this variation of smash because they made his feet smaller, among other things

Allow me to take a stab at this...and I speak for and to everyone who is interested in Kirby.

It isn't that Kirby lacks range necessarily...it is just that Kirby is slow in areas that he shouldn't be, namely air and ground. Characters that have higher mobility absolutely throttle Kirby, as well as characters with projectiles and characters with large knockback...that's a lot of characters that could be factored in those categories. I do believe Kirby may just be one of the worst competitive characters in the game match-up wise, since a myriad of characters can abuse these properties to "clobber that Kirby"...sooooo why use him?

One thing is his landing lag with his aerials. They are disgustingly quick considering their utility. Heck, us Kirbys have the "Hup Cancel" and his almighty duck. That duck is a seriously underrated property that Kirby has, making matchups like ZSS v. Kirby, for example, a bit more manageable because of how many attacks are removed from the scenario when Kirby ducks. Swallowcide still exists, and getting certain abilities can help make some match-ups manageable.

Kirby's range may have been nerfed, but make no mistake that Kirby still hits from far away and hard when compared to other characters. Down Smash is a downright mean punishing tool from my experience, and neutral aerial has its best iteration in this game, with its ridiculous priority.

Of course I cannot say the game is really young, but that shouldn't stop you from playing as Kirby. Admittedly, you will likely have to work harder than the people that are playing characters such as Greninja, Diddy, Yoshi, and RosaLuma; and you will lose more than other people because of it...but don't let that discourage you from picking someone you feel comfy with. In fact, it will likely yield a satisfaction that is near incomprehensible when you do achieve your goals.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pikachu has a slow moving projectile, and the point is, you absolutely cannot react to Quick Attack, and the different ways Pikachu can use it all demand completely different responses. The amount of threat Pikachu has in neutral and his relative safety is ridiculous, combined with the fact he has generally fantastic aerials, high damage throws that COMBO, and just absolutely can't be trapped period. It's kinda sad and disgusting that the only thing really balancing him is low knockback KO moves, because this character just excels completely and almost flawlessly at control and capitalizing.

Sounds like Akuma from Street Fighter 4 kinda.

hahahahaha

........

ah ****

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sounds like Akuma from Street Fighter 4 kinda.

hahahahaha

........

ah ****

Where's the actual player Pikachuakuma? I'd be terrified to see him on this ****.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You mean JR? Cali I think, same as you. I will ask next time I see him on facebook to be sure

 

[KenMeister]

Allow me to take a stab at this...and I speak for and to everyone who is interested in Kirby.

It isn't that Kirby lacks range necessarily...it is just that Kirby is slow in areas that he shouldn't be, namely air and ground. Characters that have higher mobility absolutely throttle Kirby, as well as characters with projectiles and characters with large knockback...that's a lot of characters that could be factored in those categories. I do believe Kirby may just be one of the worst competitive characters in the game match-up wise, since a myriad of characters can abuse these properties to "clobber that Kirby"...sooooo why use him?

One thing is his landing lag with his aerials. They are disgustingly quick considering their utility. Heck, us Kirbys have the "Hup Cancel" and his almighty duck. That duck is a seriously underrated property that Kirby has, making matchups like ZSS v. Kirby, for example, a bit more manageable because of how many attacks are removed from the scenario when Kirby ducks. Swallowcide still exists, and getting certain abilities can help make some match-ups manageable.

Kirby's range may have been nerfed, but make no mistake that Kirby still hits from far away and hard when compared to other characters. Down Smash is a downright mean punishing tool from my experience, and neutral aerial has its best iteration in this game, with its ridiculous priority.

Of course I cannot say the game is really young, but that shouldn't stop you from playing as Kirby. Admittedly, you will likely have to work harder than the people that are playing characters such as Greninja, Diddy, Yoshi, and RosaLuma; and you will lose more than other people because of it...but don't let that discourage you from picking someone you feel comfy with. In fact, it will likely yield a satisfaction that is near incomprehensible when you do achieve your goals.

I feel like one thing Kirby has over his Brawl iteration at the very least is his vastly improved air game. In Brawl he was forced to rely on Bair, because the majority of moves could either be DI'd out of, or were not rewarding enough for the amount of start-up lag they had. Here, his fair and dair have far more use thanks to the DI not being as much of a thing as it was in other games (which is why I'm fine with DI being weaker in Smash 4, gives aerials more utility), with fair being a nice poking move (and has more knockback), and dair being good on shield. Uair is decent for juggling, and nair is pretty good for extending combos and the practical uses you listed earlier. Bair is still good, of course. I don't believe he'll be great either, if anything he'll still be mediocre like he was in Brawl, but he's not someone I'd sleep on either.

 

[Tagxy]

Pikachus KO moves arent even low knockback. They KO at normal percents (100-150 range) but in brawl his moves KOd in the 70-120% range but were harder to land. Sometime around 170-220% though all his moves become KO moves.

Still disagree on how safe he is though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pikachus KO moves arent even low knockback. They KO at normal percents (100-150 range) but in brawl his moves KOd in the 70-120% range but were harder to land. Sometime around 170-220% though all his moves become KO moves.

Still disagree on how safe he is though.

F-smash and U-smash, his best KO moves iirc can't really be set up into for the most part outside of generic land trapping, so I do believe his KO problems are pretty noticeable.

And it's not like he's unhittable. It's just that the risk of trying to actually hit him if he's playing really carefully and mixing up his options is just stupid. He capitalizes really well (ESPECIALLY offstage), can get past all forms of zoning almost effortlessly, and he can't be trapped.

You mean JR? Cali I think, same as you. I will ask next time I see him on facebook to be sure

I was more joking, bringing him up. But yeah, if his facebook information is correct, he doesn't live extremely far away from me.