Character Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

I'm really curious, but am I missing something huge about Marth in this game because some of the replies I read seem to imply that he could be this sleeper high tier and any speed alterations would make him a wall heavy, centralizing threat to the entire meta. I'm not talking about short-hop double fair (and neither was ZeRo I believe), but more-so better landing or auto-cancels for greater reward and safety.

I can't even begin to fault ZeRo for saying that Marth gets very little reward in this game. Marth mains are okay with how punishable or telegraphed almost every approach is? Or how there's a huge lack of follow-ups for getting a grab with such a mediocre grab range? I'm really curious because only here do I see anger towards ZeRo asking for Marth buffs.

For Link, a frame 6 tether grab would indeed be silly but ZeRo's main point is that Link suffers tremendously against shield. This is something I've heard many times and it's not wrong? I don't get the hate.

Imma say this now.

Roy is overrated in my opinion.

He loses to the same chars Marth does and his disadvantage state is abysmal. Also Marth and Roy are safe on the same pokes namely d-tilt and nair. Both lose to tethers. Roy gets direct reward and that is fine considering that when it is his opponent that has him in disadvantage he gets rocked WAY worse then Marth due to his physics.

Roy is a character of extremes.

It's not about being sleeper high tier it's about not making a change to Marth that would infringe upon Roy's niche.

 

[outfoxd]

Unlike Wario or Yoshi though, Roy does not have a projectile.

Okay. A swordman has one of the fastest airspeed. Meanwhile, I'm stuck between two big characters, one being a fat penguin while the other is a bulky muscular evil chokey guy, in airspeed competition and I'm just a plumber that weight no more than a villager or a doctor.

On a serious note, how is LM's aerials? I usually just use them for lulz but N-air is quite a combo breaker.

From what i understand his aerials work to combo from the air back to the ground too.

 

[HonorH]

I'd like SH AC on Ganon's Dair

Imma say this now.

Roy is overrated in my opinion.

He loses to the same chars Marth does and his disadvantage state is abysmal. Also Marth and Roy are safe on the same pokes namely d-tilt and nair. Both lose to tethers. Roy gets direct reward and that is fine considering that when it is his opponent that has him in disadvantage he gets rocked WAY worse then Marth due to his physics.

Roy is a character of extremes.

It's not about being sleeper high tier it's about not making a change to Marth that would infringe upon Roy's niche.

So..........

Captain Falcon with a sword (As far as being a character of extremes)?

 

[Luco]

So Ness has a massive slew of even-ish MUs. We've been really indecisive about our worst MU, but it's looking like it's Rosa atm, who is probably our worst -1. With that in mind, this is how it would roughly look in a customs off meta (as much as I enjoy customs on, this probably looks a bit cleaner):


-1:
0: / /
+1:
+2:

Obviously the least sure about the DLC.

It should be noted that quite a lot of these MUs I can only guess as to how they would go, or have taken some queues from other Ness mains' opinions. That being said, here is my rationale on a few of them:

- It's no question she's a bad MU, and we're leaning towards her being worse than Sonic. However, we don't actually perform particularly badly in neutral, and she's a light target that dies at some laughably early percents to Bthrow. Quite a few top Ness and Rosalina players seem to think this MU is no worse than -1 and that top Ness mains just need to get over their fears. Mik! (the guy who played GFs against Boss at a recent Xanadu) thinks it's even or has the potential to be later on down the line. That said, it's true that Dabuz's record is currently flawless against Ness, and I am a big believer of the now. It could be a -2.
- our easiest MU discussion ever. Some think it's even, some think it's a -1, it's pretty mutually agreed upon by both boards. Ness has a few safe attacks on block in neutral unless Power-shielded, in which case lol where did that 40% come from? Luigi can kill earlier than Bthrow using cyclone, although granted it's not 100% reliable and if he does whiff it he can be punished and even killed at higher percentsd with a Uair. Both can decently-ish edge-guard each other. It's more about the fact that Luigi combos and arguably kills better than us, although for the most part we have the same game-plan.
- Like most characters, we lose to Sheik. But not that badly! She controls neutral and where the interactions happen whilst being quite safe as a general rule but because outside of edge-guarding she probably won't be killing us till post 150% we have the wonderful rage-induced Bthrow/aerials killing her at 80-90%. Yay! The Mu is more complex but I don't think anyone's really miffed with this rating.
- play it campy like ICs in Brawl and it's not that bad. Or something, I haven't played a good Sonic. A lot of our top players don't think it's that bad. Sonic at mid-range is terrifying, but once he gets in we actually mostly win there. His kill options are somewhat liner so we often get rage to help us kill.
- Here's where they start getting interesting! Mr. King of the heavy-weights is indeed combo fodder but there's more to this MU than just 'Tough Guy beats out PK Fire at low percents!' (Thanks for that enlightening contribution Mario9268). Bowser's mobile enough to give us trouble in footsies and we can die really early to a bunch of random stuff he throws out. Also he can edge-guard us quite well, really. Thank goodness we wreck him in disadvantage. We juggle Bowser harder than Shaya juggles with my heart ( </3 I'll take those infractions with me to the grave you monster! Don't kill me pls), but enough with the hilarious comparison shenanigoats and back to the MU, which roughly comes out to about even. Maybe a +1. @NickRiddle might know a bit more on this one.
- The jab cancels are a pain, but everything else about the MU is pretty alright.
- I'm not too sure on him. I find we do a good job at beating him in the air and winning against bike shenanigoats, but I've never played it at high level so I figured even was as good as any a ratio to give it given how generally strong Wario's tools are in most MUs.
- This MU was highly contentious when our boards discussed it. Opinions varied from +1 to even to -1 to whatever else and both sides were basically on the platform of "I'm not going to accept this MU is anything worse than even!" So we eventually decided to call it a day and slap even on it. More high level play is needed to verify the theory behind the MU, however I am of the belief that Mik! and Techei play the MU on a semi-regular basis.
- I don't knowwwwww, Shaky beat NickRiddle's ZSS at CEO forcing him to use Bowser. We can take advantage of paralyzer into grab with magnet cancel into jump and I guess if ZSS is scared to zone with lasers then our neutral against her is a lot more doable. I played this MU a few times a while back and found ZSS' mobility was the scariest thing about her and her neutral wasn't something I was that scared of, but I've also heard that ZSS has a great neutral so I'm not sure what to think, maybe my interpretation of what goes on in this MU is just wrong (it probably is, I've been out of the scene for 7 MONTHS NOW).
- Pretty sure this one was also re-enforced by Shaky beating ESAM recently, and convincingly. Pika harasses us well off-stage, and by harass I mean kill, but we're pretty brilliant against the rodent on-stage, I think we outrange his disjoints and kill earlier and don't give a dang about t-jolts for obvious reasons.
- It's quite a close MU really, but we believe Ness edges it out. As a person who co-mains both characters, I've always enjoyed this MU from both sides. It's never been more fun to get magnet gimped than by someone who shares your love for your mains. Because both have a significant edge against the other off-stage (although Lucas has tether at close ranges to the edge which helps him a lot) and they both juggle each other kinda equally (Ness does it a little better) and Lucas combos a little better but Ness kills a bit better and they both have some capacity to ignore the others' zoning tools, it mostly comes down to outplaying the other. Lucas' highly questionable tether grab and inferior OoS options give Ness the edge though, from what I can see of his early meta. In many respects it was a similar MU in Brawl.
- This MU obviously needs discussing. Most Ness mains believe it's in our favour, but I haven't played a good Olimar so I can't comment too much on it. It's a particularly interesting MU because, surprisingly enough, in Brawl it was even.
- Mac is going to have a sucky time anywhere that's not on the ground, but oh my goodness his ground tools are just that strong that I'm not convinced we wreck him anymore like everyone used to think. Maybe I just play the MU badly, my matches against Mac are generally very volatile, both in and out of tournament.
- I have a personal issue about MUs that say 'run up to the opponent, PS all their projectiles, then play a guessing game in how to beat them in neutral before you can execute your stuff'. I've always sucked at the Link MU (again, in and out of tournament) and playing that patiently is something I find very very... Different. It just takes such a different mindset to deal with this character, so much so that I wouldn't be surprised if that alone sways the rating. That being said, we edge-guard Link like a boss with Fair. If he gets pushed too far off-stage he shouldn't be coming back.


I'lldo more abit later, playing @adom4 offline for a while! :D

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If people are wondering why we don't see any 7-3 mu's just look at Ness's mu spread. The rosalina MU being considered -1 is a sick joke. Unfortunately these are the type of mu spreads you see which makes the game look balanced. *sigh*

 

[Nobie]

I'm not a game designer. I'm not even much of a competitor. So, take all of this with its own massive grain of salt. The way I see balance, and the directions of the buffs and nerfs that happened to the characters, it's not solely a matter of making a character viable or able to win tournaments, but rather...

1) Making their strategies clear, effective, and unique...
2) While maintaining the identity of the character
3) Allowing them to on some level fight the rest of the cast...
3) While also giving other characters an opportunity to fight back

When it comes to game design, I think based on what I've read and even what I've seen Sakurai say, 1 and 2 are the most important. He chooses characters for Smash based on what they could bring to the series on a gameplay level, which is why, for example, Bowser Jr. has the clown cart and isn't just a tiny Bowser. Obviously clones and such exist, but they're time savers.

The result is that, when buffing or nerfing characters, I believe that the thinking isn't "How can we make them just as good as the top characters?" That's probably not that difficult: just improve frame data, make a bunch of hitboxes bigger, make hits stronger and faster, etc. etc. Rather, it's about "how can the characters be expressed more effectively?" In his posts on Miiverse, Sakurai mentioned that Marth is meant to fight like a fencer. As everyone else has mentioned, it's all about grace and positioning, and rewarding him for fighting well as a fencer.

The question is, then, does having a double fair or an autocancel short hop double fair follow along with this fencer archetype? While I think it might be argued either way, I think a lot of people in this thread, and probably Sakurai himself, have seen how double fair is less about grace and more about brute force, just bullying your way through lesser opponents and sometimes even greater ones too. Thus, it's out, never to be seen again, and instead everything about Marth emphasizes not only being rewarded for good spacing, but HAVING to space well. That's why his f-smash is shorter than previous games, but it kills earlier than ever. That's why he has the end lag on key moves but even tilts can kill when spaced properly. It challenges you to be the fencer OR ELSE. All of his (and Lucina's) buffs emphasize this game plan further.

So why then has Roy changed so drastically from Melee? Again, this is only my own thoughts on how this might have come about, but I think that Sakurai looked back at Melee Roy and what he intended Roy to be, and realized the result didn't match the planning. He was, as we all know, mainly a worse Marth. So, in order to emphasize the whole idea of having the sword that does more damage up close, and also perhaps giving him a feel akin to Melee, he was given high movement specs, effective throw combos, etc, and in exchange he gets wrecked off-stage. Roy's character identity becomes a swordsman who charges in and values offense over defense, and any buffs or nerfs that happen to him in the future will likely still reflect this concept.

tl,dr: Concept/Meaning > Viability from a game design perspective, but it's not bad if you have both.

 

[Luco]

If people are wondering why we don't see any 7-3 mu's just look at Ness's mu spread. The rosalina MU being considered -1 is a sick joke. Unfortunately these are the type of mu spreass you see which makes the game look balanced. *sigh*

To be honest it's very possible that Rosa is a -2, but a lot of the top players don't seem to think so.

Anyway, back to my edits.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm not a game designer. I'm not even much of a competitor. So, take all of this with its own massive grain of salt. The way I see balance, and the directions of the buffs and nerfs that happened to the characters, it's not solely a matter of making a character viable or able to win tournaments, but rather...

1) Making their strategies clear, effective, and unique...
2) While maintaining the identity of the character
3) Allowing them to on some level fight the rest of the cast...
3) While also giving other characters an opportunity to fight back

When it comes to game design, I think based on what I've read and even what I've seen Sakurai say, 1 and 2 are the most important. He chooses characters for Smash based on what they could bring to the series on a gameplay level, which is why, for example, Bowser Jr. has the clown cart and isn't just a tiny Bowser. Obviously clones and such exist, but they're time savers.

The result is that, when buffing or nerfing characters, I believe that the thinking isn't "How can we make them just as good as the top characters?" That's probably not that difficult: just improve frame data, make a bunch of hitboxes bigger, make hits stronger and faster, etc. etc. Rather, it's about "how can the characters be expressed more effectively?" In his posts on Miiverse, Sakurai mentioned that Marth is meant to fight like a fencer. As everyone else has mentioned, it's all about grace and positioning, and rewarding him for fighting well as a fencer.

The question is, then, does having a double fair or an autocancel short hop double fair follow along with this fencer archetype? While I think it might be argued either way, I think a lot of people in this thread, and probably Sakurai himself, have seen how double fair is less about grace and more about brute force, just bullying your way through lesser opponents and sometimes even greater ones too. Thus, it's out, never to be seen again, and instead everything about Marth emphasizes not only being rewarded for good spacing, but HAVING to space well. That's why his f-smash is shorter than previous games, but it kills earlier than ever. That's why he has the end lag on key moves but even tilts can kill when spaced properly. It challenges you to be the fencer OR ELSE. All of his (and Lucina's) buffs emphasize this game plan further.

So why then has Roy changed so drastically from Melee? Again, this is only my own thoughts on how this might have come about, but I think that Sakurai looked back at Melee Roy and what he intended Roy to be, and realized the result didn't match the planning. He was, as we all know, mainly a worse Marth. So, in order to emphasize the whole idea of having the sword that does more damage up close, and also perhaps giving him a feel akin to Melee, he was given high movement specs, effective throw combos, etc, and in exchange he gets wrecked off-stage. Roy's character identity becomes a swordsman who charges in and values offense over defense, and any buffs or nerfs that happen to him in the future will likely still reflect this concept.

tl,dr: Concept/Meaning > Viability from a game design perspective, but it's not bad if you have both.

It's also why people who complain about 's damage per hit being so low should also consider if they really want him to
make obsolete in spite of still having bigger combos or have him cause even more ridiculous damage per hit with insane frame data.

 

[TriTails]

If we are raising Mario's damage output per hit, we also need to drop his mobility.

Because frankly, 2nd fastest normals attack speed, 6th fastest airspeed, and Luigi's damage output? Broken.

 

[outfoxd]

I think that's one of the reasons Sheik is polarizing from a design perspective. Needles work as a tool and in the ninja motif but its tuned so much zoners are like "why in the hell can she beat me in a gunfight too? Isnt this how im supposed to work?/

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I wish ROB had a actual legit defensive option ;__;

 

[Routa]

I wish ROB had a actual legit defensive option ;__;

What about Gyro and Nair?

 

[PUK]

I wish ROB had a actual legit defensive option ;__;

Seriously? R.O.B a.k.a W.A.L.L.e?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wish ROB had a actual legit defensive option ;__;

He has some of the best pivot options, doesn't he? Gyro does a lot of good, too.

 

[Apple275]

Falcon's smash 4 knee makes me sad

 

[C0rvus]

Falcon's smash 4 knee makes me sad

I hate dying at 70% at center stage too. As Yoshi. What.

 

[Apple275]

Let's have a moment of silence for floaties who fall victim to this move

 

[Yikarur]

1. Successful top tiers can beat shield.
2. Successful top tiers have are strong in neutral.
3. Successful top tiers get guaranteed damage from combos out of throws.

Yoshi Mid Tier confirmed 8)

 

[san.]

You forgot to mention that successful top tiers can get out of bad situations easily, otherwise Ike and Falcon will be up there.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You forgot to mention that successful top tiers can get out of bad situations easily, otherwise Ike and Falcon will be up there.

How does Rosalina escape situations? Or is she not top tier?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Unlike Wario or Yoshi though, Roy does not have a projectile.

Okay. A swordman has one of the fastest airspeed. Meanwhile, I'm stuck between two big characters, one being a fat penguin while the other is a bulky muscular evil chokey guy, in airspeed competition and I'm just a plumber that weight no more than a villager or a doctor.

On a serious note, how is LM's aerials? I usually just use them for lulz but N-air is quite a combo breaker.

Little Mac's U-air isn't necessarily a bad aerial. If you land it close to the ground, you can combo into stuff, and its range and speed makes it pretty reasonably good for tacking on some damage on people that are above you. D-air is also one of the fastest meteors in the game, so you can easily gimp Falcon with it for instance, and you can do two in a shorthop if you feel like it.

F-air and B-air are trash except for edgeguarding in the ditto or something, but you can easily combo into them out of D-tilt for a while, which is worth doing if they aren't at Up-B kill range so that's something.

N-air mostly shouldn't be used due to being negative on hit although some people might not expect it. But Up-B is a superior combo breaker to be serious.

 

[Deathball8421]

I will never understand how Roy is this high in this game :/ Like I think he should drop a couple of stops.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Something that people don't consider about reaction time enough, I think, is that you have to be able to tell from the first frame that something is happening to react to it.

If I've got a move that's 16 frames of startup, but there's no animation change until F14, you aren't reacting to that.

Just something to throw out there about reactions.

Or the inverse. Gouken players like to use standing MP in fireball wars because the punch's animation resembles the fireball startup's animation. The player relies on the fact that his opponent reacts to the startup animation of fireball to jump forward, and Gouken has a rush punch among other tools to punish improper forward jumps at almost any range, which work after the MP's cooldown but not a fireball's.

 

[FullMoon]

- This MU was highly contentious when our boards discussed it. Opinions varied from +1 to even to -1 to whatever else and both sides were basically on the platform of "I'm not going to accept this MU is anything worse than even!" So we eventually decided to call it a day and slap even on it. More high level play is needed to verify the theory behind the MU, however I am of the belief that Mik! and Techei play the MU on a semi-regular basis.

Yeah I'm pretty sure that MU discussion in our boards was the most controversial, either that one or Kirby lol.

I could probably do a MU chart for Greninja too now that I think of it.

 

[Djent]

........ Can people stop saying theory when they clearly mean hypothesis? My biological lab experiences and my TA job I had for those labs made me a real stickler for when people casually use the term theory incorrectly and think they're right in using it. Every time I see that, I just want to assume everything they after that is complete nonsense.

Even in science, "theory" and "hypothesis" are not always used consistently.

"Theory" can mean a well-corroborated explanation for a number of lower-level phenomena (1), or it can simply refer to something that aspires to be such an explanation regardess of how good it is (2). [Compare: the theory of evolution (1) vs. phlogiston theory (2)]

"Hypothesis" can mean a potential explanation that hasn't been thoroughly tested yet (1), or it can refer to a discrete, testable prediction that can be used to distinguish which competing explanation(s) we should prefer (2). [Compare: a hypothesis as to the Genesis of consciousness (1) vs. A null hypothesis (2)]

Basically, a hypothesis(2) is for determining whether a hypothesis (1) is a candidate theory(1). Theory(2) encompasses both theory(1) and hypothesis(1), but not hypothesis(2).

 

[|RK|]

I will never understand how Roy is this high in this game :/ Like I think he should drop a couple of stops.

No >: (

 

[LancerStaff]

I will never understand how Roy is this high in this game :/ Like I think he should drop a couple of stops.

He really isn't, no idea how Little Mac with a sword has somehow ridden out the hype this long.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

He has some of the best pivot options, doesn't he? Gyro does a lot of good, too.

Seriously? R.O.B a.k.a W.A.L.L.e?

What about Gyro and Nair?

No no and no. those options don't help rob when he is hit, not does he have a good option OOS when being pressured up close. We also don't have good rolls and we have a terrible shield which can be poked to death. Nair is slow on startup, and covers ROB's blind pairs individually at a time and isn't majorly disjointed.
Fair could work, but it's actually short ranged, while the other options simply fail. ROB is good at protecting his space, but he just suffers when hit, since he's big as donkey kong and is just as vulnerable to juggles as him, except he doesn't have a Quick hitting move that's covers his entire body at the same time.
I like to compare rob to dhalsim since they both are really good at zoning, but are execution-based and require a certain player (TS Sabin aka yung art) because they have no real defense. Rob has nothing when he's hit except for situational moves, and the ledge. Gyro canceling is something 8bitman does a lot, but that crap
Is frame perfect, and doesn't have a lot of bang for its buck.
EDIT: rob was like this in brawl too, except the range on all his moves were longer i think. It's Ben a while since I have actually touched brawl, but I Remember some

 

[Yikarur]

7 of 10 Characters I consider Top10 have a "third jump" that let them escape juggling more easily. It's definitely an important trait. It restrictes damage building and kill set-up traps. It's probably one of the best things you can have in this game.

The 7 I mean are Sheik (DownB), Diddy (SideB), ZSS (downB), Fox (sideB/downB), Sonic (spinshot), Pikachu (upB) and Mii Brawler (feint jump)

E: if Yoshi is considered Top10, then count him in too. (upB)

 

[san.]

How does Rosalina escape situations? Or is she not top tier?

Luma acts as a string breaker and Rosa is naturally super floaty.

 

[PUK]

No no and no. those options don't help rob when he is hit, not does he have a good option OOS when being pressured up close. We also don't have good rolls and we have a terrible shield which can be poked to death. Nair is slow on startup, and covers ROB's blind pairs individually at a time and isn't majorly disjointed.
Fair could work, but it's actually short ranged, while the other options simply fail. ROB is good at protecting his space, but he just suffers when hit, since he's big as donkey kong and is just as vulnerable to juggles as him, except he doesn't have a Quick hitting move that's covers his entire body at the same time.
I like to compare rob to dhalsim since they both are really good at zoning, but are execution-based and require a certain player (TS Sabin aka yung art) because they have no real defense. Rob has nothing when he's hit except for situational moves, and the ledge. Gyro canceling is something 8bitman does a lot, but that crap
Is frame perfect, and doesn't have a lot of bang for its buck.
EDIT: rob was like this in brawl too, except the range on all his moves were longer i think. It's Ben a while since I have actually touched brawl, but I Remember some

Beside those who have a frame 3-5 aerial which hit in front, or a quick and safe way to reposition themselve everybody suffer from this. It's falcon and Ike and DK and a lot of character issue.
At least in custom rapid burner can help, and ROB can stay evasive with gyro reverse.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Luma acts as a string breaker and Rosa is naturally super floaty.

Not looking forward to the day when Luma placement is optimized.

Smooth Criminal

 

[san.]

Not looking forward to the day when Luma placement is optimized.

Smooth Criminal

Yeah.

To make it easier to understand, let's say you hit Rosa up with a utilt or throw and Luma is nearby.

You can go after Luma for the long-term reward while relinquishing your advantage, or you can keep pressure on Rosaline while dancing around Luma some more, combined with the floatiness. It's not that bad compared to the triple jump downBs, but it's better than those like Roy and Falcon where you can simple-mindedly put up the pressure like any other character and never have to give up your positioning.

 

[Smog Frog]

real talk: is it better to just play footsies with luma? and disregard ?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'd say you count Luma in with your footsies with Rosalina. The object is to take her stock, not pummel the **** out of a floating pillow.

Kind of a derivative of my advice for people when it comes to handling D3's Gordo mixups: "Keep your eye on the prize." Means that you don't necessarily discount the incoming Gordo, but you make damn sure that you watch what D3's doing. A good chunk of the time he's the one that's gonna take your stock, covering routes of escape (including reflecting the Gordo back at him, in optimal situations) and pressuring bad choices from you, and not necessarily the Gordo. I believe you can follow a similar line of logic with Rosa, only in this case you're dealing with constant insulation from offensive options in the form of Luma's presence. You're gonna have to account for that almost every single time you manage to get the most out of neutral against her.

I'M DONE EDITING I SWEAR

Smooth Criminal

 

[Apple275]

I'd say you count Luma in with your footsies with Rosalina. The object is to take her stock, not pummel the **** out of a floating pillow.

Kind of a derivative of my advice for people when it comes to handling D3's Gordo mixups: "Keep your eye on the prize." Means that you don't necessarily discount the incoming Gordo, but you make damn sure that you watch what D3's doing. A good chunk of the time he's the one that's gonna take your stock, covering routes of escape (including reflecting the Gordo back at him, in optimal situations) and pressuring bad choices from you, and not necessarily the Gordo. I believe you can follow a similar line of logic with Rosa, only in this case you're dealing with constant insulation from offensive options in the form of Luma's presence. You're gonna have to account for that almost every single time you manage to get the most out of neutral against her.

I'M DONE EDITING I SWEAR

Smooth Criminal

 

[DanGR]

Not looking forward to the day when Luma placement is optimized.

Smooth Criminal

There's a little wiggle room for varying luma placement using jab or autocanceled aerials to displace him in neutral, but nothing that doesn't also jeopardize her defense. Overall it's as binary as "did they use a laggy attack to initiate the string" or "are they ignoring Luma's possible hitboxes." This is almost strictly growing room for the anti-Rosalina meta.

 

[Morbi]

real talk: is it better to just play footsies with luma? and disregard ?

I would never advise anyone to disregard Rosalina, and playing footsies with Luma is (for the most part) a waste of time. That is precisely what we WANT you to focus on. The core of any Smash title is to build up percent and go for the knock-out. You are doing neither of those if you waste time on Luma. If you think about it, you can dispose of Luma two or three times a stock and still not get a kill while Rosalina plays her game of patience. That is not to say that you should just approach without much thought, but most people that challenge Rosalina are the ones who can get past Luma. If you have an opening to damage Luma relatively safe, take it. But that should never be your predominant mind-set. Most good Rosalina players will keep Luma somewhat close anyways and you do not want contend with just one or the other or you risk exposing yourself. Rosalina's weakness is aggressive rush-down play-styles. Do not give her room to breath and set-up Luma.

 

[Superbat]

http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash KTAR is today. Emblem Lord was on stream with his ryu. ( the commentators were roasting him because he was playing against a really young smasher and called their set a father son game loool) Its all friendly tho. Pretty much all of the top NJ players will be here. Gonna be tight matches.

 

[meleebrawler]

I would never advise anyone to disregard Rosalina, and playing footsies with Luma is (for the most part) a waste of time. That is precisely what we WANT you to focus on. The core of any Smash title is to build up percent and go for the knock-out. You are doing neither of those if you waste time on Luma. If you think about it, you can dispose of Luma two or three times a stock and still not get a kill while Rosalina plays her game of patience. That is not to say that you should just approach without much thought, but most people that challenge Rosalina are the ones who can get past Luma. If you have an opening to damage Luma relatively safe, take it. But that should never be your predominant mind-set. Most good Rosalina players will keep Luma somewhat close anyways and you do not want contend with just one or the other or you risk exposing yourself. Rosalina's weakness is aggressive rush-down play-styles. Do not give her room to breath and set-up Luma.

Perhaps dealing with Luma is more a matter of waiting for an opportunity to knock it off an edge, only damaging to make that end easier.