Character Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

Just noticed Robin has the same IASA and autocancels (except pre-hitbox AC and Nair AC) on his aerials as Brawl Marth. Have fun Robin players, at least you get something.

http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Robin
But wow this frame data is bad. Really bad.

Huh, Robin's aerial frame data quite a bit like Pit's. Pit has much better ACs (considering Pit's lingering hitboxes, on Uair namely) but Robin's FAF beat's Pit's.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Mario has a bit of trouble keeping up with Sonic. But Mario has the tools to stop Sonic's approaches. So for me it's pretty even or Sonic has an sligh advantage. That is just my experience though.

What do you think about: vs ?

 

[RonNewcomb]

Any thoughts on the Pit v ROB MU? I was playing a good ROB the other day and it was a real struggle. Can't say I've played a good ROB before, so I'm new to the MU. I tried my best to powershield lasers and catch/pick up th gyro. However, I would just throw it back, I never tried to play keep away with the gyro and pressure with arrows. Does that ever work? Any suggestions?

How'd it go in CQC? I would imagine Pit would win that.
I don't think arrows would help much, if my attempts at zoning with Link were any indication.A reflector with advancing hitboxes ... reminds me of Brawl Pit, actually.

Let me give you a perspective
Throwing a gyro offstage to get rid if it is like throwing diddys banana offstage. So basically,
It's dumb (but you're not dumb of course ) . We get our gyro quicker that way, so anytime you throw it offstage, rob happily waits a sec and then pulls it out again. Against characters based in items like us, you should work in your item game. Play a match with items and work on throws, jump canceled throws, and z drops

I don't always z-drop items, but when I do, I z-drop bombs. (It didn't help much.)
@ Baby_Sneak , how does ROB approach his matches? What's going through a ROB main's mind during the Pit (or Link) battle?

 

[Ikes]

everyone keeps talking about "exploting luigis mobility" but like

it's been almost a year since release

the luigi gameplan has kept relatively the same

and it still works

You'd think by now that someone, anyone, would be doing this if it were so true and easy

but it's clearly not, it's incredibly clear to me that it's at this point pretty much fruitless because there is no mythical exploit to his weakness, he has the tools to cover that weakness

maybe, just maybe
Luigi is actually good

But hey

THATS JUST A THEORY

 

[Vipermoon]

If Meta Knight was still his Brawl incarnation, would anybody in Sm4sh be able to win the match up? And is it weird that I recently played against a Rosalina player who is extremely good and really knows what he is doing, and had little to no trouble at all? The only character who did cause me a lot of trouble was Sheik.

No way. In a game with much more hitstun than Brawl, he'd be even more broken than he was before. With no ICs/Snake and a nerfed Falco, Marth, and Diddy, no one would even get close to touching him. If those characters were carried over from Brawl, they would even be god tier in Smash 4. Sheik will get destroyed.

Everything Brawl MK does is safe on shield. He will have among the lowest landing lag in the game (since landing lag in general is higher in Smash 4) and by far the best AC. His Nado will be back, he will have his glide and shuttle loop glide, everything will be transcendent priority; and better start-up, cool-down, range, active frames, and damage across the board.

Edit: Smash 4 MK does have better air speed so hooray, one buff.

 

[Smog Frog]

fundamentals>

his range is piss poor so he's easily kept out by good spacing and zoning. bad mobility doesnt help in this regard either.

also, does anyone have results for at top level play? because looking at apex, only 1 was in top 16, and it wasnt even a full on main...looking at ceo, the only in top 32 is larry...and he got there mainly on ! are there any other big tournaments that i am missing? i feel like i am.

as the game progresses, people will get better, people will get better at spacing, and will drop. to me, has nowhere to go but down.

 

[Yeagerzard]

Charizard I believe is in a nice place and doesn't have the title of being the worst character in the game. His buffs are helping him and I love it. Some say Charizard with these should be moved from C+ to B- and I agree with that, but C+ is fine for this Lizard. Kind of funny that people were saying he was the worst character, but then they started to say that he wasn't when version 1.08 buffed his Up Throw to be a kill throw. Also Bowser I like got moved to B- and the Top Tiers not changing a lot. But, i would like to see at least be in B tier because with the right person playing him he can be very viable in tournaments like Melee or even right now with .
#Lizards4Life

 

[Baby_Sneak]

everyone keeps talking about "exploting luigis mobility" but like

it's been almost a year since release

the luigi gameplan has kept relatively the same

and it still works

You'd think by now that someone, anyone, would be doing this if it were so true and easy

but it's clearly not, it's incredibly clear to me that it's at this point pretty much fruitless because there is no mythical exploit to his weakness, he has the tools to cover that weakness

maybe, just maybe
Luigi is actually good

But hey

THATS JUST A THEORY

Luigi = fundamentals test. If you let him get in, you fail. And the mythical way to exploit luigi's weakness?
L2space. Luigi then can't get in.

 

[Antonykun]

everyone keeps talking about "exploting luigis mobility" but like

it's been almost a year since release

the luigi gameplan has kept relatively the same

and it still works

You'd think by now that someone, anyone, would be doing this if it were so true and easy

but it's clearly not, it's incredibly clear to me that it's at this point pretty much fruitless because there is no mythical exploit to his weakness, he has the tools to cover that weakness

maybe, just maybe
Luigi is actually good

But hey

THATS JUST A THEORY

dude 1.0.0 Luigi (aka the game's release) was (probably) terrible

Vectoring made it so he couldn't do his infamous combos as well or kill you as early with down throw down b while also having the same mobility issues he has now

so just say its going to be a bit later before one can say a years release

 

[Luco]

What theory do you guys have that could make the MU better for yall?

On paper, the MU isn't that bad. Consider the fact that G&W gimps Ness in the same way (or even harder) and is actually more likely to be even or a +1.

Rosalina is tall and lightweight (and very average in terms of mobility both on ground and in the air), and Ness performs surprisingly decent in Neutral against her. Aside from Luma being firewood if it gets too close to the ground, of more relevance is that Ness just has a lot of things that randomly kill Luma. Nair is often enough to just tap Luma off-stage. Fair can do it too. At that point it's about catching Rosalina. Ness doesn't have to get Rosalina to particularly high percents before Bthrow kills. And saving DJ means it should be more difficult for Rosalina to gimp Ness. It's difficult to put into words, but I'm confident as time goes on, Ness mains will find their feet in this MU.

One mu in particular is Ness, which apparently, Nessboards think they win. I reckon it's even, but lack too much theory to prove it other than they both have a grasp on each other's recovery, go even in the neutral stance, and can match each other's abilties to rack up damage, zone, and approach. Ness kills faster, however. Ness mains, is that enough to make it +1 in favor of Ness?

I would disagree that it's even in the neutral stance, which is where I believe the key difference lies. Pretty sure we beat out his aerials and do better on racking up damage overall. In terms of results we normally beat Mario I'm pretty sure, I think the exception recently was NAKAT vs Ally recently?

 

[Kofu]

dude 1.0.0 Luigi (aka the game's release) was (probably) terrible

Vectoring made it so he couldn't do his infamous combos as well or kill you as early with down throw down b while also having the same mobility issues he has now

so just say its going to be a bit later before one can say a years release

He certainly wasn't as strong. The same goes for Diddy, whose DThrow became far more powerful when vectoring was removed. He was still possibly stronger than he is now because his other moves still did their high damage, but he wasn't as prominent.

 

[TriTails]

Apex 2015 is where Luigi mains got ROTFL'd up... Last I remembered, three Luigi mains got in the same bracket as... Nairo.. and some more other big names.

CEO 2015 has no Luigi mains from what I can remember. Larry pockets Luigi, and I'm pretty dang sure pocket Luigi =/= main Luigi. Get Mr. CC, J. Miller, or Boss on CEO and we'll talk.

dude 1.0.0 Luigi (aka the game's release) was (probably) terrible

Vectoring made it so he couldn't do his infamous combos as well or kill you as early with down throw down b while also having the same mobility issues he has now

so just say its going to be a bit later before one can say a years release

Well, I can tell you this, 1.0.0 to 1.0.3 Luigis were pretty bad.

Greninja, Rosa, Sheik pooped on him.
Vectoring worsened his combos and kill setups.
Big blast zones, bad for Luigi who already had killing problems.
F-air was pretty dang small.
D-smash was not a kill option.

He sucked at game's release. No questions about that.

On another note, am I really the only one who is not scared of Sheik's needles? On low percentages I mean. At higher percents? She juggles you with it. At low percents? A simple bleeping flinch. I mean, correct me if I am wrong, but what can she get from needles' flinch? The end lag doesn't allow her to follow up with anything unless she got a read.

I think they need to make so needles doesn't do knockback until like 300% and we're good... but wait. Isn't balance discussion banned from this thread? Never mind this paragraph then.

 

[Project Quarantine]

On paper, the MU isn't that bad. Consider the fact that G&W gimps Ness in the same way (or even harder) and is actually more likely to be even or a +1.

Rosalina is tall and lightweight (and very average in terms of mobility both on ground and in the air), and Ness performs surprisingly decent in Neutral against her. Aside from Luma being firewood if it gets too close to the ground, of more relevance is that Ness just has a lot of things that randomly kill Luma. Nair is often enough to just tap Luma off-stage. Fair can do it too. At that point it's about catching Rosalina. Ness doesn't have to get Rosalina to particularly high percents before Bthrow kills. And saving DJ means it should be more difficult for Rosalina to gimp Ness. It's difficult to put into words, but I'm confident as time goes on, Ness mains will find their feet in this MU.



I would disagree that it's even in the neutral stance, which is where I believe the key difference lies. Pretty sure we beat out his aerials and do better on racking up damage overall. In terms of results we normally beat Mario I'm pretty sure, I think the exception recently was NAKAT vs Ally recently?

While Ness may have the better range and aerial priority, Mario can play stronger footsies in neutral, when neither player wants to commit to an option, due to his mobility. Also, Mario has the option to utilize a workable projectile to keep Ness on his toes. In general, Mario has a slightly easier time when neither player really needs to commit, struggles a bit approaching, and racks up damage slightly less effectively (this is still up for debate, as Mario can benefit considerably more from reads as shown by Ally). When the mario player can take advantage of risk-reward situations in neutral or to continue combos, the mu evens out.

But if both players are equally strong in the neutral stance...I'd say the mu goes +.5 Ness

 

[NairWizard]

everyone keeps talking about "exploting luigis mobility" but like

it's been almost a year since release

the luigi gameplan has kept relatively the same

and it still works

You'd think by now that someone, anyone, would be doing this if it were so true and easy

but it's clearly not, it's incredibly clear to me that it's at this point pretty much fruitless because there is no mythical exploit to his weakness, he has the tools to cover that weakness

maybe, just maybe
Luigi is actually good

But hey

THATS JUST A THEORY

Luigi's mobility issues (and weaknesses in general) are somewhat overstated.

His walk and run speeds are averageish, but his initial dash is one of the best in the game; for a moment when he's using his initial dash he becomes faster than the majority of the cast (I would imagine his traction has a lot to do with this). There are only a few initial dashes I would prefer to have over Luigi's, and one of them belongs to Fox (lol, you know you're not bad in a mobility spec if you're being compared to Fox, unless it's horizontal drift speed), and that too only because of the faster init animation.

Add to that his amazing jab and fireballs, and the random Cyclone mixup (which is particularly effective when you are trying to weave around his initial dash), as well as the fact that he has the 2nd longest perfect pivot in the game (something which has been underutilized, though Luigi's tilts aren't quite good enough to make the most of it), and Luigi has good, perhaps even great, mobility on stage.

His really poor stat is airspeed, game-worst next to D3, but what does airspeed affect? Ability to get followups and ability to avoid damage. Luigi already gets tons of damage from advantaged situations; he even has a KO confirm off of d-throw. He definitely doesn't miss the ability to chase opponents (if he could, that would be hilariously ridiculous; just think about getting frame trapped into Luigi up-smash while landing).

As far as avoiding damage, his floatiness enables him to aridodge close to the ground without punishment. Being floaty is actually often good in disadvantage, not bad (though with Luigi's combo-breaking n-air he would probably prefer being a fastfaller since the up-tilt strings wouldn't bother him too much if he were, and he'd get better neutral mixups), and he has the n-air of truth (12% damage?, frame 3), and Cyclone mixups. Luigi would definitely like better airspeed for getting out of air traps, but he's not one of the worst characters in disadvantage, period. That title belongs to the likes of Bowser (or even Falcon).

He's not bad offstage either; you always have to respect airdodge -> Cyclone gimps unless you have a massive disjoint like Rosalina d-air because you could lose your stock, and jumpless Cyclone in particular is great. The difference between Luigis who can JC and those who can't is massive; his recovery jumps several tiers with mastery of mashing. Edgeguarding Ness is easy. Edgeguarding Luigi is much harder.

Luigi is easily a great character. He doesn't really have weaknesses that are apparent unless you are playing one of the characters who exploit them by design (as in, his weaknesses are matchup-dependent). His reward is so massive that disjointed spacers like Ike and Marth probably don't beat him even if they fare decently after the patch buffs, considering that they have to keep him out 2 or 3 times for every time that he gets in.

That said, he does lose pretty hard to Sheik and Rosalina, which may keep him out of the competitive spotlight at nationals. At the same time he's one of the only characters to have clean advantages on Mario, Diddy, Ness, Fox, and Pikachu (characters with otherwise great matchup spreads), so he won't ever really fall out of the metagame.

 

[Nobie]

Neutral and footsies are such interesting concepts, though I think that due to the way Smash has worked in the past "good neutral" is often conflated with "good mobility," and we're seeing less of that in this game.

I think characters who are good in neutral have one more of the following qualities:

1) They can attack the opponent before they attack (good frame data)
2) They can attack the opponent's attack (good hitboxes/disjoints)
3) They can move towards or away and retaliate (good mobility)

The best characters in neutral have all three, but it's interesting to think about all of the characters in terms of these three qualities. Mario for example has excellent frame data and great mobility, but his hitboxes can leave something to be desired at times. Ganondorf on the other hand mainly relies on good hitboxes and the reward he gets from punching punches.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Luigi's mobility issues (and weaknesses in general) are somewhat overstated.

His walk and run speeds are averageish, but his initial dash is one of the best in the game; for a moment when he's using his initial dash he becomes faster than the majority of the cast (I would imagine his traction has a lot to do with this). There are only a few initial dashes I would prefer to have over Luigi's, and one of them belongs to Fox (lol, you know you're not bad in a mobility spec if you're being compared to Fox, unless it's horizontal drift speed), and that too only because of the faster init animation.

Add to that his amazing jab and fireballs, and the random Cyclone mixup (which is particularly effective when you are trying to weave around his initial dash), as well as the fact that he has the 2nd longest perfect pivot in the game (something which has been underutilized, though Luigi's tilts aren't quite good enough to make the most of it), and Luigi has good, perhaps even great, mobility on stage.

His really poor stat is airspeed, game-worst next to D3, but what does airspeed affect? Ability to get followups and ability to avoid damage. Luigi already gets tons of damage from advantaged situations; he even has a KO confirm off of d-throw. He definitely doesn't miss the ability to chase opponents (if he could, that would be hilariously ridiculous; just think about getting frame trapped into Luigi up-smash while landing).

As far as avoiding damage, his floatiness enables him to aridodge close to the ground without punishment. Being floaty is actually often good in disadvantage, not bad (though with Luigi's combo-breaking n-air he would probably prefer being a fastfaller since the up-tilt strings wouldn't bother him too much if he were, and he'd get better neutral mixups), and he has the n-air of truth (12% damage?, frame 3), and Cyclone mixups. Luigi would definitely like better airspeed for getting out of air traps, but he's not one of the worst characters in disadvantage, period. That title belongs to the likes of Bowser (or even Falcon).

He's not bad offstage either; you always have to respect airdodge -> Cyclone gimps unless you have a massive disjoint like Rosalina d-air because you could lose your stock, and jumpless Cyclone in particular is great. The difference between Luigis who can JC and those who can't is massive; his recovery jumps several tiers with mastery of mashing. Edgeguarding Ness is easy. Edgeguarding Luigi is much harder.

Luigi is easily a great character. He doesn't really have weaknesses that are apparent unless you are playing one of the characters who exploit them by design (as in, his weaknesses are matchup-dependent). His reward is so massive that disjointed spacers like Ike and Marth probably don't beat him even if they fare decently after the patch buffs, considering that they have to keep him out 2 or 3 times for every time that he gets in.

That said, he does lose pretty hard to Sheik and Rosalina, which may keep him out of the competitive spotlight at nationals. At the same time he's one of the only characters to have clean advantages on Mario, Diddy, Ness, Fox, and Pikachu (characters with otherwise great matchup spreads), so he won't ever really fall out of the metagame.

You can all go home now. Luigi has been summed up and fully explored and it's all in this ^ post.
Jk but seriously, you're right about all of that. He is an excellent character to have in your pocket because of the aforementioned matchups. You can't really solo main Luigi but that's fine because you can't really solo main anyone in this game except maybe Sheik.
And for Luigi mains who want Luigi to have mobility, just remember that Luigi with mobility is basically 1.0 Diddy Kong without bananas.

 

[TriTails]

Neutral and footsies are such interesting concepts, though I think that due to the way Smash has worked in the past "good neutral" is often conflated with "good mobility," and we're seeing less of that in this game.

I think characters who are good in neutral have one more of the following qualities:

1) They can attack the opponent before they attack (good frame data)
2) They can attack the opponent's attack (good hitboxes/disjoints)
3) They can move towards or away and retaliate (good mobility)

The best characters in neutral have all three, but it's interesting to think about all of the characters in terms of these three qualities. Mario for example has excellent frame data and great mobility, but his hitboxes can leave something to be desired at times. Ganondorf on the other hand mainly relies on good hitboxes and the reward he gets from punching punches.

Add in 'Great projectiles' and it's gud.

Not really agreeing on Luigi 'losing hard to Sheik'. Every Sheik that use needles correctly against me has been manageable. SH Firebals does wonders on forcing Sheik to cancel her charge or else she'll take 5% AND lose the charge anyway. Mr. CC also fares fairly against the best Sheik in the world so IDK on Sheik beating Luigi that bad.

Rosalina is a tough one though...

But still. Luigi also has disadvantages against Greninja and Pac, as well as Mega. So IDK on his status being top tier. Lucas also seem to pose a threat as well.

 

[Ikes]

Thank you solidsense, exactly what I was thinking though I couldnt figure out how to put it into words

To bring this to a new topic, how does Toon Link fare against the following high/top tiers?
I ask since I haven't brought him out in too many situations (and have yet to physically go to a tournament, anthers is all I know)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Thank you solidsense, exactly what I was thinking though I couldnt figure out how to put it into words

To bring this to a new topic, how does Toon Link fare against the following high/top tiers?
I ask since I haven't brought him out in too many situations (and have yet to physically go to a tournament, anthers is all I know)

If there were Toon Link mains then I would know. But I don't even think these matchups have ever happned in tourney before. That's how unrepped he is.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If there were Toon Link mains then I would know. But I don't even think these matchups have ever happned in tourney before. That's how unrepped he is.

I've played vs toon link a couple of times as Rosalina.

@ Luco As Rosalina I look for the dj. Ness's options are pretty limited from my experience. High recovery is a possibility but you leave yourself vulnerable to uair. Recovering low Ness's tend to go for the ledge or on the stage. When they go for the stage fair or air dodge is the main option. There's also the pkt by the stsge thst I've seen ness attempt to use. Also I think Rosalina mobility is better than ness.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Last time I checked ZeRo 3-0 ed Mr. Concon in Grand Finals at Oomba after Mr. Concon beat ZeRo (before 1.08 patch) in a set. ZeRo again faced Mr. Concon at DVDA in Winner Finals where he went 3-1 against Mr. Concon and then in Grand Finals went 3-0 against him again. ZeRo did state in an interview that he felt that Luigi gives Diddy Kong a lot of problems and was thinking about going sheik at game 5 of Oomba due to sheik having an easy time walling Luigi out. After watching both tournies, Mr. ConCon had a very hard time getting in at all and overall got few grabs. What furthers lead me to believe that is an bad MU is that when ZeRo was going Mr. Concon actually won the set, but then ZeRo switched to and 3-0'ed him right after. Now after Oomba some people just said Mr.Concon had a lack of MU experience, but you would think that after loosing that badly to Sheik, he would have practiced the MU for sure. So when DVDA comes along; ZeRo opts to not even go Diddy Kong and go Sheik and proceeds to 3-1 Mr. Concon in Winner Finals, and then Mr. Concon comes back from losers bracket to face off ZeRo to only get 3-0'ed. Basically Sheik wins neutral (like always) while also keeping Luigi out, and being able to punish Luigi trying to use Green Missile offstage with Bouncing Fish offstage.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm a bit late to the party, but I played a great R.O.B. yesterday and have some notes on the Pit vs R.O.B. matchup:

- R.O.B. outzones Pit. This is a fact. Lasers and gyro chuckle at arrows. This isn't to say that arrows are useless, just that you can't rely on them too much in this matchup.

- Take away R.O.B.'s gyro and he is a broken man. It's one of his best spacing tools, if you can neutralise it, you're in a good spot. Grab it out of the air and throw it back at him to force a shield, which sets up for grab.

- R.O.B. is grab and combo food. D-throw sets up for everything you need to make R.O.B. miserable, and he can't really challenge Pit in the air.

- Be wary of falling R.O.B., his n-air is a good spacing tool. Try to bait it out and then punish with f-air or b-air.

- Boxing is roughly even. Pit has the better jab and tilts, though R.O.B.'s smashes are faster and will hurt if you drop your guard.

- Off-stage, go for the spike if you can get the read and go ham: R.O.B.'s recovery is very easy to intercept, especially with Pit's stellar off-stage game. Just watch out for the u-air and, god forbid you're below R.O.B., the d-air.

EDIT: A few more things while I'm on the subject:

R.O.B. will force Pit to approach, which can be dangerous if you're not prepared for that. Pit's not the strongest and it can be difficult to muscle out someone as big and heavy as R.O.B. I think the combo game is the way to go here. Work your way through R.O.B.'s wall of projectiles and setup for grab, forcing him back if necessary until you're in a favourable position.

Don't underestimate R.O.B.'s grab game, of course: his d-throw is a decent setup tool in itself and combos into Beep-Boop. Combined with Pit's distinct lack of landing options, you can get very easily juggled if you're not careful.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm a bit late to the party, but I played a great R.O.B. yesterday and have some notes on the Pit vs R.O.B. matchup:

- R.O.B. outzones Pit. This is a fact. Lasers and gyro chuckle at arrows. This isn't to say that arrows are useless, just that you can't rely on them too much in this matchup.

-

Arrows are also terrible zoning projectiles, just sayin, and they definitely are not the most important part of his gameplan by far. Outzoning a Pit isn't exactly remarkable.

 

[Wintropy]

Arrows are also terrible zoning projectiles, just sayin, and they definitely are not the most important part of his gameplan by far. Outzoning a Pit isn't exactly remarkable.

Oh, I know, but it does force Pit to approach, which is not a favourable position for Pit to be in. You can't really be defensive against an opponent that can wall you out from across the entire stage.

EDIT: I don't think arrows are terrible, per se. If you use them solely for zoning, then yeah, you won't get far. They're a mixup tool, an option with which to pressure the opponent and force them to either approach or just bother them while you setup your gameplan. R.O.B. is virtually immune to it and forces the reasonably defence-oriented Pit to try and get into R.O.B.'s space. If you're not prepared for that, it can be a grueling and intense experience indeed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh, I know, but it does force Pit to approach, which is not a favourable position for Pit to be in. You can't really be defensive against an opponent that can wall you out from across the entire stage.

EDIT: I don't think arrows are terrible, per se. If you use them solely for zoning, then yeah, you won't get far. They're a mixup tool, an option with which to pressure the opponent and force them to either approach or just bother them while you setup your gameplan. R.O.B. is virtually immune to it and forces the reasonably defence-oriented Pit to try and get into R.O.B.'s space. If you're not prepared for that, it can be a grueling and intense experience indeed.

The only time I think Pit/Dark Pit arrows are really good is mostly for juggles and traps, really not unlike ROB's laser to be frank. I was mostly responding because most of the time, I observe arrows being way too high of a commitment to be useful in neutral.

 

[Luco]

While Ness may have the better range and aerial priority, Mario can play stronger footsies in neutral, when neither player wants to commit to an option, due to his mobility. Also, Mario has the option to utilize a workable projectile to keep Ness on his toes. In general, Mario has a slightly easier time when neither player really needs to commit, struggles a bit approaching, and racks up damage slightly less effectively (this is still up for debate, as Mario can benefit considerably more from reads as shown by Ally). When the mario player can take advantage of risk-reward situations in neutral or to continue combos, the mu evens out.

But if both players are equally strong in the neutral stance...I'd say the mu goes +.5 Ness

Fireball is heavily punishable at close range, and heavily punishable for the totally inverse reason at long range. The only situation where I see Mario using fireball effectively in the MU, or more than just the odd mix-up, is during an edge-guard. Mario's mobility is certainly quite good but It's not the only thing that effects the neutral.

You have to remember, characters being faster than Ness on the ground/in footsies isn't a new thing, and I say this to all of you. It's Ness' set of incredible aerials and reward off grab that keeps him in the running. The key words when talking about Ness are 'risk vs reward'. Who has the better risk vs reward in neutral? This applies to most of our match-ups. When Ness gets a grab in this MU, he either gets 30% off combos with Dthrow, gets Mario offstage with Fthrow (usually) or kills/almost kills (ie also puts offstage) Mario with Bthrow (or sets up juggles with Uthrow if Fthrow won't put Mario offstage). This is important. Mario's reward off his throws is totally fine but not at that level.

I think it's a solid +1. The advantage is slight but it's there and noticeable.

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY - Ness' AD is actually REALLY good and gets him out of a lot of terrible situations. I wish people stopped under-rating AD in general though, the implication when people talk about it is 'oh it's not a real option' when in actuality it makes a big difference and can be alternated with other tools just like anything else. It's also really nice for Ness because he can cancel AD into Nair or Bair really well.

EDIT: I've never faced a competent in smash 4 but from my limited experience I find getting past his walls is easier and playing against him in footsies is easier because I feel like grab whiffs more (maybe it's because he's shorter??). He's lighter and easier to kill but harder to edge-guard. Don't have too much of a problem with him tbh but I might be missing stuff.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Fireball is heavily punishable at close range, and heavily punishable for the totally inverse reason at long range. The only situation where I see Mario using fireball effectively in the MU, or more than just the odd mix-up, is during an edge-guard. Mario's mobility is certainly quite good but It's not the only thing that effects the neutral.

You have to remember, characters being faster than Ness on the ground/in footsies isn't a new thing, and I say this to all of you. It's Ness' set of incredible aerials and reward off grab that keeps him in the running. The key words when talking about Ness are 'risk vs reward'. Who has the better risk vs reward in neutral? This applies to most of our match-ups. When Ness gets a grab in this MU, he either gets 30% off combos with Dthrow, gets Mario offstage with Fthrow (usually) or kills/almost kills (ie also puts offstage) Mario with Bthrow (or sets up juggles with Uthrow if Fthrow won't put Mario offstage). This is important.

I think it's a solid +1. The advantage is slight but it's there and noticeable.

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY - Ness' AD is actually REALLY good and gets him out of a lot of terrible situations. I wish people stopped under-rating AD in general though, the implication when people talk about it is 'oh it's not a real option' when in actuality it makes a big difference and can be alternated with other tools just like anything else. It's also really nice for Ness because he can cancel AD into Nair or Bair really well.

EDIT: I've never faced a competent in smash 4 but from my limited experience I find getting past his walls is easier and playing against him in footsies is easier because I feel like grab whiffs more (maybe it's because he's shorter??). He's lighter and easier to kill but harder to edge-guard. Don't have too much of a problem with him tbh but I might be missing stuff.

Air dodge is an option but people read air dodges a lot of times. There's times when air dodging is the worst option.

 

[Luco]

Air dodge is an option but people read air dodges a lot of times. There's times when air dodging is the worst option.

Normally after guaranteed followups AD is a bad option because there's literally nothing else that could have been done, of course you're sentencing yourself to death there half the time. When coming back there's so much more you can do, the opponent isn't in a situation to focus on punishing the 5 frames of vulnerability because they also have to be in the correct position in the first place and correctly guess that you wouldn't just try to hit them or do something else like recover low. When coming back, AD is under-rated in theory, but especially considering Ness' DJ allows him to position himself really well, it's actually like... Really good.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So Roy is actually kinda bad.

Discuss.

 

[A_Kae]

So Roy is actually kinda bad.

Discuss.

He's not bad, just not nearly as good as people hyped him to be.

 

[Ikes]

So Roy is actually kinda bad.

Discuss.

I don't see where this is coming from at all

 

[Luco]

So Roy is actually kinda bad.

Discuss.

It's not that he's bad, he was just over-hyped IMO. All the DLC has been, it'll settle down eventually.

EDIT: Mamash 'd

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey guys, a bit of general news not on the front page yet:

New character reveal on smashbros.com Monday morning, 10am eastern.

(Important for people like me who only check this topic/forum.)

Edit: Sorry, I confirmed this as fake news! I blame Facebook. Apologies.

 

[Shaya]

@ Thinkaman
Source?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So Roy is actually kinda bad.

Discuss.

Roys our boy....

 

[Thinkaman]

@ Thinkaman
Source?

Sorry, it was a fake post on Facebook spoofing the official NoA page. Already taken down.

What gets me is it's a really weird thing to fake.

 

[Speed Boost]

I'm a bit late to the party, but I played a great R.O.B. yesterday and have some notes on the Pit vs R.O.B. matchup:

- R.O.B. outzones Pit. This is a fact. Lasers and gyro chuckle at arrows. This isn't to say that arrows are useless, just that you can't rely on them too much in this matchup.

- Take away R.O.B.'s gyro and he is a broken man. It's one of his best spacing tools, if you can neutralise it, you're in a good spot. Grab it out of the air and throw it back at him to force a shield, which sets up for grab.

- R.O.B. is grab and combo food. D-throw sets up for everything you need to make R.O.B. miserable, and he can't really challenge Pit in the air.

- Be wary of falling R.O.B., his n-air is a good spacing tool. Try to bait it out and then punish with f-air or b-air.

- Boxing is roughly even. Pit has the better jab and tilts, though R.O.B.'s smashes are faster and will hurt if you drop your guard.

- Off-stage, go for the spike if you can get the read and go ham: R.O.B.'s recovery is very easy to intercept, especially with Pit's stellar off-stage game. Just watch out for the u-air and, god forbid you're below R.O.B., the d-air.

EDIT: A few more things while I'm on the subject:

R.O.B. will force Pit to approach, which can be dangerous if you're not prepared for that. Pit's not the strongest and it can be difficult to muscle out someone as big and heavy as R.O.B. I think the combo game is the way to go here. Work your way through R.O.B.'s wall of projectiles and setup for grab, forcing him back if necessary until you're in a favourable position.

Don't underestimate R.O.B.'s grab game, of course: his d-throw is a decent setup tool in itself and combos into Beep-Boop. Combined with Pit's distinct lack of landing options, you can get very easily juggled if you're not careful.

Have you tried holding Gyro and shooting arrows to force an approach? I'm curious if that is possible and I haven't been able to find any info on it yet. I've done some of that against Mega Man with Metalblade before with some success. Not relying on it as a sole strategy to win, just a change of pace.

 

[Shaya]

Sorry, it was a fake post on Facebook spoofing the official NoA page. Already taken down.

What gets me is it's a really weird thing to fake.

I checked first
As in, everything mentioning it concluded with 'fake' from what I saw~

 

[Ark of Silence101]

No way. In a game with much more hitstun than Brawl, he'd be even more broken than he was before. With no ICs/Snake and a nerfed Falco, Marth, and Diddy, no one would even get close to touching him. If those characters were carried over from Brawl, they would even be god tier in Smash 4. Sheik will get destroyed.

Everything Brawl MK does is safe on shield. He will have among the lowest landing lag in the game (since landing lag in general is higher in Smash 4) and by far the best AC. His Nado will be back, he will have his glide and shuttle loop glide, everything will be transcendent priority; and better start-up, cool-down, range, active frames, and damage across the board.

Edit: Smash 4 MK does have better air speed so hooray, one buff.

Figures. I always knew this guy in Brawl is far more dangerous than Melee!Fox, Sm4sh!Sheik.

 

[∆ZeroWolf∆]

and are probably a bit too high.

Shulk maybe yes but ROY?!